OCT leader's maturity and credibility

[Killtown]

To all who think I ignored and ducked Gravy's questions because I was being a coward, you need to know how it all started.

First, Gravy is "Murdervillage"...

Gravy:

I had posted this in another thread. Killtown asked that I start a new thread.

Glad you're here, Killtown.

In other forums where you post, I've posted as "Murdervillage" and repeatedly asked you questions that you simply ignored.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1842112&postcount=1


Now how it first started....

At 8:10 PM, Murdervillage said...

I agree with my friend Killtown. Airplanes that hit reinforced concrete structrures at high speed DO NOT break into small pieces! Anyone who doesn't know that is a fool, a tool, and a shill.


At 8:22 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killttown, I read your blog. Two thumbs up!


At 8:33 PM, Murdervillage said...

Lay off Killtown. He has been researching this for years and I believe he has spoken to investigators and other supposed witnesses at each supposed crash scene, and not a single one claims that planes hit there or that passenger rmains were recovered.

Killtown 1, Investigators and "witnesses" 0.


At 8:36 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killtown, I forget where on your website you have all those quotes from your interviews with the investigators and witnesses where they say they found no aircraft and human remains. Can you link to that again?


At 8:55 PM, Murdervillage said...

Oh, maybe it was on your blog where I saw your interviews with all those people who were on the scenes.

Is that right, Killtown? I know you said you interviewed all those people. Can you point me to them again?

Thanks!


At 9:00 PM, Murdervillage said...

I just read the "no tail" blog post again, and I heartily concur.

It's perfectly obvious that when a long, cylindrical airliner hits a concrete structure, it will go through that structure without bending or buckling, and the vertical stabilizer would be perfetcty upright when it hit. Anyone who says different will need to explain what universe their laws of physics apply to.


At 9:31 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killtown, help me out. I'm still lost! Can't find where you talked to all those people who were at the scenes. I think it was 30 or 40 interviews, right?

Are those interviews on your blog or your website?


At 11:25 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killtown, they are killing me. I told them that you swore you interviewed a whole bunch of people who investigated the "crash scenes."

Help me out! I can't find those interviews!

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/07/no-buildings-theory.html


At 11:31 PM, Murdervillage said...

I'm glad you're still here, Killtown. I promised people I would send them to your interviews of the "crash scene" investigators, but I still can't find them.

I know you said you did those interviews. 30 or 40 people, wasn't it?

Pleeeeeeease help me out here! I don't want to be made a fool of!



At 11:37 PM, Killtown said...

Murdervillage, you are already a fool. (I already knew what this "Murdervillage" was up too! :D I didn't know this person was the "impeccalbe" Gravy back then.)

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/07/cindy-sheehan-also-in-vast-right-wing.html


At 8:57 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killtown, I'm glad you're here. People are harrassing me about where your interviews with the on-scene people are. You said you did 30 or 40 of them. Please tell me where to find them!


At 9:48 PM, Murdervillage said...

I believe killtown. He said he actually talked to the first responders and investigators in Shanksville, and they denied that any evidence of the plane or people were found.

I think most of you critics are new at thisl Killtown has been researching for a long time.

Killtown, when you get a chance, can you throw me those links to your interviews? Please?


At 10:07 PM, Murdervillage said...

Killtown, I hate to be a bother, but can you at least give us a summary of who you talked to from the flight 93 site and what they said?

At 4:01 AM, Murdervillage said...

I don't want to seem to be criticizing Killtown! His research is awesome! I just think he's shy or something. There is absolutely no reason to think he's not telling the truth.

The flight 93 site was by far the smallest in terms of the number of people on the scene, and still there were over 1100 people there from 74 agencies and organizations, from the Shanksville Volunteer Fire Department to coroner Wally Miller to hundreds of FBI investigators. Just look at the list of first responders from that PDF I listed earlier!

So, it's not as if there's a shortage of witnesses to communicate with, and if Killtown says he's done that, and that if they say there was no plane or human remains there, I believe him 100%. I wonder if he has a book deal or something that precludes him from sharing this info.

Killtown?

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/07/united-93-debunked.html




So you see what Gravy was trying to do to get me to answer his question, being immature, sarcastic, and DECEPTIVE in egging me on to answer them (apparently he thought I was that stupid to fall for his trick). Then he says this:



My comment was childish, but was born of frustration at Killtown's daily refusal to answer my questions...

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1844495&postcount=47


And tops it off with...

But I needn't have stooped to calling him dumb. His website and forum posts are ample proof of his intellect.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1844495&postcount=47


The really sad part is most OCTs (Official Conspiracy Theorists) still hold him in high esteem and being credible.


Sad, just sad.


:(

[hellaeon]

All I request as a casual reader and observer/contributor of the forum that we not lower this decent forum to a 'days of our lives' load of drivel such as this.

Sorry but the care factor is -1

[Hishighness]

Come on you two, kiss and make up.

[T.A.M.]

I will only say this.

Given the maturity level exhibited "many times" by the "Truth" movement Frontmen (D.A. J.B. J.F.A.J.), a big old "POT CALLIN THE KETTLE BLACK" is in order.

[Killtown]

He is a leader in the OCT movement. Just need to show you guys what kind of person you're following.

You can thank me later.

[WildCat]

:catfight: :popcorn1

[Hishighness]

I don't follow anyone, I'm not a sheep. I look at evidence and make up my own mind. So far I've not seen any conclusive evidence that 9/11 was a Conspiracy theory. Oh yeah you can trot out the squibs, or building 7, or the hole in the pentagon, and quote mine all you want but take that **** to court and you'd get laughed out of the room.

[Gravy]

Yes, I was inspired by watching you refuse to answer similar questions again and again on the LC forum.

All the messages I got about those posts thought they were funny as hell. You really should print them next to your posts, where they belong.

Why didn't you answer my questions as you promised to do, Killtown? Why did you run away like the rest of the CT cowards?

What are you afraid of? It's just the truth hiding under your bed.

[defaultdotxbe]

immaturity is a 2 edged sword

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=7db898d2fb8b7ec44f17013fb4c59df6&search_in=posts&result_type=posts

im sure i could dig up killtown being insulting too (we already know he has no respect for mark bingham)

[Brainache]

I don't understand what your quotes demonstrate Killtown. Other than your reluctance to answer a direct question related to your Blog.
Murdervillage seems to have been frustrated by your continual obfuscation, which to me is perfectly understandable.

If you claimed to have interviewed all those people, why not show the interviews? Surely their statements must have confirmed your assertions or you wouldn't have mentioned them at all.
I'm still curious as to what they said.

[WildCat]

He is a leader in the OCT movement. Just need to show you guys what kind of person you're following.

You can thank me later.
He's a leader? Hardly. He has done a lot for sure, but there are no leaders here. Look at the first Loose Change thread here - it's pinned - gravy doesn't even come along until over 3 weeks into the thread. And frankly, it took him only a few weeks to find all that evidence that seems to elude all the CT'ers and then he made his viewing guide. And all he did to make that, basically, was compile all the info from 9/11 Myths and other sites.

I really don't get how you CT'ers - who claim to be extensively researching all things 9/11 - could have missed so much info that has been around forever. For example, the flight manifests that were printed by the Boston Globe a few days after 9/11. What did all you CT "researchers" do? Claimed a victims list posted on CNN was a flight manifest. And that bit of disinfo is still being spread by the LC crowd and others.

You guys seem to be completely oblivious to all the facts surrounding 9/11. You deliberately take quotes out of context (Larry Silverstein said "pull it"!1!11!!!!1), make up other lies out of thin air (Ben Chertoff a cousin of Michael Chertoff, Marvin Bush head of WTC security, no plane parts found at the Pentagon, etc), cite things as being in the "official report" that isn't there (the official explanation is that the plane vaporized), I could go on and on. Then you guys have the gall to call yourselves the "Truth Movement" despite all the lies you must know you're perpetuating.

And oh yeah, you accuse people of the murder of nearly 3,000 people w/o a shred of evidence.

So don't be surprised when some people get a little short with you, this will happen when you make such serious accusations w/o any evidence whatsoever.

[hellaeon]

Gravy is not my 'leader' he is someone who did his homework and addressed the claims spouted forth by people who claimed to be telling us the 'truth'.
As someone who did that and saved me the work, he is an example of a good citizen, someone to follow by example, not a 'leader of the anti CT movement'. Why do you propose we are some opposing evil?
We dont have any movement. Its a bunch of people who would rather reality as it is. People who would prefer to be humble in the light of correctly attained evidence. People who dont jump to conclusions about 'zionist corruption' out of looking at a blurry photo or seeing the price of eggs go up. Call it/us/our ways/habbits what you want but its far from the cult behaviour conspiracy circles exhibit.

Im tired of the idiocy CT people exhibit. Your damned if you do, damned if you dont. Its pathetic attention seeking rubbish. Wannabe scientists and revolutionists trying to play out there latest movie hero in real life.

My two cents.

[Hishighness]

I personally think the only way to solve this is a 57 round battle royale on top of a 1987 Buick Skylark.

Who's with me.

WHO'S WITH MEEEEEEEE!?!!?

[Lisa Simpson]

So, Gravy...you're the leader, huh? Is there a special pin or a really cool badge or something? And what are the bennies like? Medical, dental, vision?

[bjb]

Gravy isn't perfect. I wish he had enough patience to refrain from getting personal. But he's doing a great job and I'm very happy with what he's doing. James Randi also has a tendency to resort to name calling, not that that makes it right but it is a hazard for skeptics who have been exposed to excessive amounts of nonsense.

Killtown, you might want to read Michael Shermer's book, "Why People Believe Weird Things" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805070893/sr=8-2/qid=1155608964/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-9267858-5913611?ie=UTF8). It doesn't specifically address the 9/11 conspiracy theory, but it does describe the faulty thought processes that lead otherwise reasonable people to believe in nonsense. There are a few chapters on Holocause deniers, creationists, UFO believers, etc. and the methods used to propogate such beliefs are very similar. As I read through the book it was easy to see that the 9/11 conspiracy theorists are on the same path of irrational thinking as these other fringe groups. You might want to take a look at this book. Unlike James Randi, Michael Shermer doesn't resort to personal insults. He does spend time debunking outrageous claims, but he's also very interested in understanding why people believe in this sort of nonsense. Read it and see if anything looks familiar to you, in particular, the section on ad hoc arguements.

[Gravy]

As their leader, I commanded Wildcat, Hellaeon, and bjb to say those things.

[Earl The Tall]

I personally think the only way to solve this is a 57 round battle royale on top of a 1987 Buick Skylark.

Who's with me.

WHO'S WITH MEEEEEEEE!?!!?

A battle royal? I love battle royals! I'm there, but does it have to be a Skylark?

[Gravy]

But to be serious for a moment, Wildcat's post is a perfect summary of what the CTs say on Saturdays at Ground Zero. The same old, discredited falsehoods from a group calling itself promoters of "Truth."

At some point you should start facing the stark, naked facts, Killtown, as unpleasant as they may be. I get emails every day from people who fell for the CT hogwash and found their way out of it. They feel a bit embarrassed, but mostly they feel liberated. I'm glad to have had a role in that.

[bjb]

It looks like we were all typing at the same time! Killtown's plan is to conduct an ad hominem attack on Gravy in an effort to discredit the 9/11 conspiracy debunkers. First, he tells us Gravy is our leader (strawman), then he proceeds to attack his credibility in order to make the debunkers look bad.

Unfortunately, the best Killtown can do is point out the fact that Gravy occasionally gets frustrated and calls people names. Killtown is not interesting in refuting the facts supporting Gravy's arguements (other than using the ad hoc approach of claiming all of the evidence is faked). In fact, Killtown has already pledged that he will not answer direct questions from Gravy! How grown-up and mature is that? Perhaps Killtown would be a more convincing 9/11 truth movement leader if he let the insults go and tried to stick to the facts.

[WildCat]

As their leader, I commanded Wildcat, Hellaeon, and bjb to say those things.
And when Gravy says "jump" we ask "how high?".

[Gravy]

So, Gravy...you're the leader, huh? Is there a special pin or a really cool badge or something? And what are the bennies like? Medical, dental, vision?
Yes, and I don't believe that "You're the leader, huh?" is the approved salutation.

The only benefits are free Rollerblading lessons for all JREF members (I'm an instructor, although I haven't taught in a while and my insurance is lapsed, so you'll have to promise not to sue me if you crack your coccyx). Also, if you need advice on trekking or cycling very long distances, I'm your man. Otherwise I'm pretty much useless.

[Senor_Pointy]

Sorry to interrupt, but what the hell does OCT stand for?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Suspecting what the Israeli/Palistine conflict is really about, the strong evidence Israel was involved with 9/11, and seeing how 9/11 was faked in general, it makes me wonder how much of the Holocaust was true or not.... It is my belief that if the holocaust didn't happen, then Israel would not be a state right now. This alone gives strong evidence that the zionists behind getting Israel created would exaggerate the holocaust for their end means. - Killtown at Loose Change

I've had my knuckles rapped once already for being less than civil with you, Killtown (unlike certain other message boards I can name, the rules here are enforced fairly and even handedly for all users) So I'm going to try to state this clearly without being vicious about it.

If you're going to dredge up someones comments from other boards to impugn thier character, then I would suggest that holocaust denial and anti-semitism are hardly a moral high ground from wich to make such arguments.

[Gravy]

Sorry to interrupt, but what the hell does OCT stand for?
"Official Conspiracy Theory"

[R.Mackey]

To all who think I ignored and ducked Gravy's questions because I was being a coward, you need to know how it all started.

Actually, I don't need to know any of that. How you and Gravy talk to each other is your own business.

I'd be a lot more impressed if you'd answer my questions: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1843548&postcount=14 in case you lost the thread. Thanks.

[WildCat]

"Official Conspiracy Theory"
As opposed to the LCT - "Lunatic Conspiracy Theory". Not that they've actually come up with one yet that doesn't rely on mutally exclusive elements... :rolleyes:

[Gravy]

Actually, I don't need to know any of that. How you and Gravy talk to each other is your own business.

I'd be a lot more impressed if you'd answer my questions: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1843548&postcount=14 in case you lost the thread. Thanks.
I'll second that. It's an excellent post, as always, R. Mackey.

This reminds me of how preposterous the idea of me "leading" people here is. I've never had outside conversations with R. Mackey, Gumboot, or most of the people whose contributions here I'm in awe of. There is no "movement." Just a bunch of individuals from different backgrounds who give a damn about 9/11 and who respect learning.

[R.Mackey]

Having said that, Gravy, if I'm ever in NYC, I'll look you up. I imagine you could use a beer or three.

Just make sure we're not photographed together. Fnord.

[hellaeon]

* kneels *

What is your bidding....my master....

[WildCat]

Just a bunch of individuals from different backgrounds who give a damn about 9/11 and who respect learning.
And that's what's so funny about it all - the CT'ers have been at it for nearly 5 years now spreading lies and distortions researching. You found the Loose Change thread 4 1/2 months ago after never even hearing about the CT's and in that short amount of time discredited them all and became *enemy #1 for the Truth™ movement. Only in America! :p



* this includes you MarkyX since you are the same person. ;)

[defaultdotxbe]

And that's what's so funny about it all - the CT'ers have been at it for nearly 5 years now spreading lies and distortions researching. You found the Loose Change thread 4 1/2 months ago after never even hearing about the CT's and in that short amount of time discredited them all and became *enemy #1 for the Truth™ movement. Only in America! :p



* this includes you MarkyX since you are the same person. ;)

thats bacause gravy/markyx/brainster are actually a team of about 15-20 CIA agents workign swing shifts round the clock to keep one step ahead of some film school reject who figured out how to upload a movie on google video

[Gravy]

thats bacause gravy/markyx/brainster are actually a team of about 15-20 CIA agents workign swing shifts round the clock to keep one step ahead of some film school reject who figured out how to upload a movie on google video
You overestimate the adversary. (http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/)
So I spent twelve hours yesterday uploading the Recut to Google Video...check my account this morning, it isn't there.

On the British 9/11 forum they did accuse of being paid to work in shifts against them. Of course, we were all laid off when Langley purchased Johnny Pixel Bot.

[Abbyas]

Credibility? Impeccable.

Maturity? Some of the best WTC moments for me involve looking over at Mark and seeing him giving one of the more colorful CTers the international sign for "Cuckoo." A mature individual would have given the guy the phone number to the nearest psychiatric hospital.

[Gravy]

Credibility? Impeccable.

Maturity? Some of the best WTC moments for me involve looking over at Mark and seeing him giving one of the more colorful CTers the international sign for "Cuckoo." A mature individual would have given the guy the phone number to the nearest psychiatric hospital.
That only applies to the guy who says he can see into my wicked soul, and that I'm in deep, deep trouble. He also said my shoes were inappropriate for debunking, and always accuses us of being paid intelligence operatives. Now when he talks like that I lean in really close to his face, give him the international cuckoo sign, and say "cuckoo" in a high-pitched voice. It's the highlight of my week.

[jhunter1163]

Gravy:

I can get you a good price on a nice pair of Air Randis.

[Johnny Pixels]

On the British 9/11 forum they did accuse of being paid to work in shifts against them. Of course, we were all laid off when Langley purchased Johnny Pixel Bot.

I'm up to version 1.337 now.

41 6e 64 20 49 20 72 75 6e 20 6f 6e 20 61 6e 20 41 6d 69 67 61 20 35 30 30 20 62 65 63 61 75 73 65 20 6e 6f 2d 6f 6e 65 20 77 72 69 74 65 73 20 76 69 72 75 73 65 73 20 66 6f 72 20 74 68 65 6d 20 61 6e 79 6d 6f 72 65 2c 20 73 6f 20 49 27 6d 20 73 61 66 65 20 66 72 6f 6d 20 68 61 63 6b 65 72 73 2e

[Cuddles]

There's an Official Conspiracy Theory? Can I join? Do we get badges?

[twinstead]

Damn, I saw a thread started by killtown with a long opening post, and I thought "COOL! Killtown is actually going to answer the questions posed to him about inconsistencies in his theory and finally start actually debating real facts."

Then I read it. Boy was I dissapointed :(

[Foolmewunz]

There's an Official Conspiracy Theory? Can I join? Do we get badges?:p

Slow down - I'm still trying to remember the Gravy's Sheep Official Handshake because I can't get past the bouncer at the CIA stooge ultra top secret night club we all hang out at.

Now you want badges and decoder rings for OCT membership? Our wallets are going to filled to overflowing. Besides, Gravy hasn't said it's okay, yet!

[Foolmewunz]

[QUOTE=Killtown;1844728]To all who think I ignored and ducked Gravy's questions because I was being a coward, you need to know how it all started.


Okay, to get back to the train of this discussion, then.... We still think you were being a coward, as you're just blowing smoke up our kilts with a long cut-n-paste job that shows that you not only don't answer Gravy, but you DON'T ANSWER ANYONE. Even someone doing his best to be a sycophant. And no, we don't think you figured out who it was.... like I said, YOU NEVER ANSWER ANY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS.

Here's the million turkish dollar challenge(with apologies to H.Stern).... Show us 1 answer to any of the questions he asked. Not just in that exchange, but show one time you have EVER answered anyone or actually directed someone to the site, blog, magazine, billboard, film, video (ad infitum....) that had any proof of your mindless and scurrilous accusations.

And thanks to Sword of Truth, we can say that not only are you a coward, you're an anti semitic sack of rule8. If it wasn't Loose Change, it'd be the price of gas. If not the price of gas, then housing prices in Salinas. Something's ALWAYS the fault of the zionists and jews. You guys almost pass for credible to your slobbering masses sometimes, but as has already been noted, sooner or later you slip up and start recommending tinfoil hats, or espousing Holocaust denial, or arming and heading for the mountains, or marching on the government!

[Shrike]

This is actually the first time I've seen someone provide links to where he himself avoid answers.
If everybody starts doing that, Claus will soon be out of work...

[asmodean]

And when Gravy says "jump" we ask "how high?".

You do? I jump, then ask "High enough? Can do it again if it wasn't enough mMr Gravy-leader, sir."

[911insideJob]

Great work Kill, the OCTers will need some serious medication when they finally wake from their slumbers. ;)

I notice they wont got near 911Eyewitness.

[Cuddles]

If this is what passes for great work with the LCs I think I can see what your problem is.

[chipmunk stew]

immaturity is a 2 edged sword

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=7db898d2fb8b7ec44f17013fb4c59df6&search_in=posts&result_type=posts

im sure i could dig up killtown being insulting too (we already know he has no respect for mark bingham)Allow me:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1843360#post1843360
http://www.ninjaproxy.com/cgiproxy/nph-proxy.pl/000110A/http/67.15.129.139/6014/152/emo/whistlingb.gif

[Gravy]

Great work Kill, the OCTers will need some serious medication when they finally wake from their slumbers. ;)

I notice they wont got near 911Eyewitness.
Hi 911. Would you mind pointing out Killtown's "great work?"

I'll be glad to start a new thread about 911Eyewitness, but only if you're willing to have an actual discussion about it.

Agreed?

[Joytown]

Great work Kill, the OCTers will need some serious medication when they finally wake from their slumbers. ;)

I notice they wont got near 911Eyewitness.

Please do start a thread with the claims and evidence 911Eyewitness claims to have and we'll be glad to discuss it.

And as to the "waking from slumbers" thing - after being accused many times by CT'ers of being asleep and needing to open my eyes and wake up, I'm fully convince that the Conspiracy Theorists are actually thinly disquised shills for the COFFEE INDUSTRY!

All kidding aside - any new plausible evidence is welcome here.

-Joytown

[Foolmewunz]

Great work Kill, the OCTers will need some serious medication when they finally wake from their slumbers. ;)

I notice they wont got near 911Eyewitness.


Uh oh, he sent for his big brudder.... More brilliant CT analysis. And just to clarify, we're all seriously medicated already. So, you'll have to excuse us, 911insideJob, we're all heading over to 911Eyewitness for a bit to get our jollies over there. But y'all hang around for a while, ya heah? Go read Christophera's string for a while, that ought to keep you busy, but you stay around, Killbigot was getting lonely.... (Don't worry if it's a long and insane string [actually, that'll just make you feel like you never left home, I guess], and that there are a few erudite strings in between the sounds of thinkers smashing their heads against the wall.... we'll explain the big words, later.)

And.... if 911 was really inside Job, I guess that goes to prove the Jew conspiracy.... Now "insideJob'swife", I can see - she was a real pain in the ass, but I looke through the entire old testament for references to 911 being inside Job, and found nothing... Try googlesearch "Job & Old Testament & CTer's are a bunch of nutbars".

Please do not call names.

[911insideJob]

Hi 911. Would you mind pointing out Killtown's "great work?"

I'll be glad to start a new thread about 911Eyewitness, but only if you're willing to have an actual discussion about it.

Agreed?


Debate with a closed minded, patronising, devious morally bankrupt lacky?

Okay.

[mrfreeze]

Awwww we love you too!

[Gravy]

Debate with a closed minded, patronising, devious morally bankrupt lacky?

Okay.
I object to that characterization. I'm financially bankrupt, not morally.

Seriously, though, 911. You said we weren't willing to take on that video. For one, you can read a few pages of comments about it starting with the last post on page 18 of this thread. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=49273&page=18&highlight=911+Eyewitness)

People here, me included, will be glad to discuss the issues raised by that video, and you won't be banned here for disagreeing.

How about it?

[911insideJob]

And.... if 911 was really inside Job, I guess that goes to prove the Jew conspiracy.... Now "insideJob'swife", I can see - she was a real pain in the ass, but I looke through the entire old testament for references to 911 being inside Job, and found nothing... Try googlesearch "Job & Old Testament & CTer's are a bunch of nutbars".

Equating truth seekers with anti semites is one heck of an original angle, really hadn't heard that one before. I'll give you an F for originality. I thought Kill was exagerhating about credibility and maturity.

[911insideJob]

People here, me included, will be glad to discuss the issues raised by that video, and you won't be banned here for disagreeing.

How about it?

You are terribly kind my friend. There is so much to learn here I'd hate to be excluded from the company of such intellectual giants.

[Gravy]

Equating truth seekers with anti semites is one heck of an original angle, really hadn't heard that one before. I'll give you an F for originality. I thought Kill was exagerhating about credibility and maturity.
It's pretty common, really. Just ask Killtown (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1844947&postcount=23).

[Gravy]

You are terribly kind my friend. There is so much to learn here I'd hate to be excluded from the company of such intellectual giants.
Is that a yes? I just want to be sure because Killtown gave an unqualified yes to starting a new thread where he would answer my questions, and when I started it, he refused to answer. By the way, I told him in advance what the questions were.

[mrfreeze]

I think that was what we in the business call "being sarcastic but doing it poorly"

[Gravy]

I think that was what we in the business call "being sarcastic but doing it poorly"
Well, hope springs eternal.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

To all who think I ignored and ducked Gravy's questions because I was being a coward, you need to know how it all started.

First, Gravy is "Murdervillage"...




Now how it first started....









So you see what Gravy was trying to do to get me to answer his question, being immature, sarcastic, and DECEPTIVE in egging me on to answer them (apparently he thought I was that stupid to fall for his trick). Then he says this:



And tops it off with...




The really sad part is most OCTs (Official Conspiracy Theorists) still hold him in high esteem and being credible.


Sad, just sad.


:(


Argumentum ad hominem (argument directed at the person). This is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself. The most obvious example of this fallacy is when one debater maligns the character of another debater (e.g, "The members of the opposition are a couple of fascists!"), but this is actually not that common. A more typical manifestation of argumentum ad hominem is attacking a source of information -- for example, responding to a quotation from Richard Nixon on the subject of free trade with China by saying, "We all know Nixon was a liar and a cheat, so why should we believe anything he says?" Argumentum ad hominem also occurs when someone's arguments are discounted merely because they stand to benefit from the policy they advocate -- such as Bill Gates arguing against antitrust, rich people arguing for lower taxes, white people arguing against affirmative action, minorities arguing for affirmative action, etc. In all of these cases, the relevant question is not who makes the argument, but whether the argument is valid.

It is always bad form to use the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem. But there are some cases when it is not really a fallacy, such as when one needs to evaluate the truth of factual statements (as opposed to lines of argument or statements of value) made by interested parties. If someone has an incentive to lie about something, then it would be naive to accept his statements about that subject without question. It is also possible to restate many ad hominem arguments so as to redirect them toward ideas rather than people, such as by replacing "My opponents are fascists" with "My opponents' arguments are fascist."
sourece: http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum%20ad%20hominem

You may not like how he has interacted with you, but that does not invalidate any of his arguments against your claims.

[asmodean]

Equating truth seekers with anti semites is one heck of an original angle, really hadn't heard that one before. I'll give you an F for originality. I thought Kill was exagerhating about credibility and maturity.

Equating? Quoting Sword of Truth:


Suspecting what the Israeli/Palistine conflict is really about, the strong evidence Israel was involved with 9/11, and seeing how 9/11 was faked in general, it makes me wonder how much of the Holocaust was true or not.... It is my belief that if the holocaust didn't happen, then Israel would not be a state right now. This alone gives strong evidence that the zionists behind getting Israel created would exaggerate the holocaust for their end means.
- Killtown at Loose Change

I've had my knuckles rapped once already for being less than civil with you, Killtown (unlike certain other message boards I can name, the rules here are enforced fairly and even handedly for all users) So I'm going to try to state this clearly without being vicious about it.

If you're going to dredge up someones comments from other boards to impugn thier character, then I would suggest that holocaust denial and anti-semitism are hardly a moral high ground from wich to make such arguments.
Sword_Of_Truth is offline Report Post Quote this post in a PM Copy a direct link to this post

[Senor_Pointy]

I'm up to version 1.337 now.

41 6e 64 20 49 20 72 75 6e 20 6f 6e 20 61 6e 20 41 6d 69 67 61 20 35 30 30 20 62 65 63 61 75 73 65 20 6e 6f 2d 6f 6e 65 20 77 72 69 74 65 73 20 76 69 72 75 73 65 73 20 66 6f 72 20 74 68 65 6d 20 61 6e 79 6d 6f 72 65 2c 20 73 6f 20 49 27 6d 20 73 61 66 65 20 66 72 6f 6d 20 68 61 63 6b 65 72 73 2e






...I can't believe I actually bothered to convert that back to characters. Thanks for wasting my morning. ;)

[Foolmewunz]

Hi 911 - I'm back.... Jeez, you were right, you can't get "near" 911Eyewitness, the stench knocks you back about twenty meters. Actually I got so distracted clicking on idiotic 'articles' (any semblance to the word articulate is purely coincidental, I assure you), that I really couldn't get much into it, but I'm getting my aqualung and crap-proof armor and I'll go back, soon. I do so like the sites with the false erudition masking the nonsense!


Truly - I could spend a month over there.... But I got distracted by Googling the author of the below bit of wisdom :boggled:

Here's just a sampling of Gerard Holmgren's linked article on 911Eyewitness. It seems to be from early 2004, so maybe he has lost favor (he was debating The Great High Poobah Jones at one point, so maybe they hit him with with too many WADP (whack-ass demerit points.... if you trip over your own rhetoric too many times they take away life points like they did to Juni in that third Spy Kids movie.....)

Anyway..... from the prolific pen of Gerard Holmgren (sorry - just citing a single paragraph - it's too long to quote the whole thing)

QUOTE

Now the Sth tower crash, the one shown live on TV. Surely this was a real Boeing 767 because we saw it live, and at superficial viewing it certainly appears to be a large jet. However, a frame by frame examination of the video reveals that it is not a real plane. It shows impossible physical characteristics and behaviour. It passes through the wall like a ghost without making a hole and without breaking off any parts. The hole only appears well after the plane has entirely disappeared without disturbing the building. It exceeds the maximum speed of a Boeing 767 at low altitude while banked sharply and flying in the opposite direction to that in which its banking. It hip hops across the screen regularly alternating ,frame by frame, between supersonic speed and hovering motionless. It has a strange anomaly in the shape of the belly.

It is a fake. The plane is simply a movie.

Witness evidence for a large plane hitting the Sth tower is as elusive as for the Nth Tower and the Pentagon. There is a police transcript of a report of someone firing missiles.

UNQUOTE

And for abject rhetorical gymnastics (you have to read it a few times to figure out what the f*** he's saying) try this one for more on Gerard....
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/holmgren01.htm I assume veteran skeptics will recognize him as he's just about the founding father of whack-ass theories. Most of his crap has been debunked, but I'm sure he's out there carrying on. He's an Aussie - any Aussie skeptics reading?

As to the quote.... I'm sure the great Gerard Holmgren's not reading, but if he was:
Listen, Jackass, I watched that whole morning from the 20th floor of 10 Exchange Place in Jersey City. Just as I've said to the idiots who report no windows on the plane,.... the plane came in from more or less over our right shoulder - and it were a plane, bro! A big plane, a 767. There was no mistaking it. It was not a missile, not a film (did you really say that, above???? what a jerk), and not a lost seagull - it was a big roaring 767. I'll be happy to give you the names of about a hundred people who were in the building that day and watched it. (You can find 10 Exchange Place on a map -there was probably (and unfortunately for the nightmares I still have) not a better viewing spot for that strike.

And why are there no 'eyewitness' reports in the record you ask? Well, because it's on film, Gerard.... How many eyewitness reports are there on record of Ruby shooting Oswald? The film is the eyewitness!

(*spotted all the way from Brooklyn, Gravy... I love that... looking through all those towers between the East River and the WTC they could see "no windows"... and that's cited all over the place)

[Darth Rotor]

"Gravy is your master now!"
:(
Gravy's our leader? I didn't vote for him, I thought we were an autonomous collective. ;)

*Note Gravy getting off his "horse" and striding imperiously toward me*

Hey, look, Gravy is heading over here to repress me! See the violence inherent in the system!

DR (I'm not old!)

[Foolmewunz]

Hi 911 - I'm back.... Jeez, you were right, you can't get "near" 911Eyewitness, the stench knocks you back about twenty meters. Actually I got so distracted clicking on idiotic 'articles' (any semblance to the word articulate is purely coincidental, I assure you), that I really couldn't get much into it, but I'm getting my aqualung and crap-proof armor and I'll go back, soon. I do so like the sites with the false erudition masking the nonsense!


Truly - I could spend a month over there.... But I got distracted by Googling the author of the below bit of wisdom :boggled:

Here's just a sampling of Gerard Holmgren's linked article on 911Eyewitness. It seems to be from early 2004, so maybe he has lost favor (he was debating The Great High Poobah Jones at one point, so maybe they hit with with too many WADP (whack-ass demerit points.... if you trip over your own rhetoric too many times they take away life points like the did to Juni in that third Spy Kids movie.....

Anyway..... from the prolific pen of Gerard Holmgren (sorry - just citing a single paragraph - it's too long to quote the whole thing)

QUOTE

Now the Sth tower crash, the one shown live on TV. Surely this was a real Boeing 767 because we saw it live, and at superficial viewing it certainly appears to be a large jet. However, a frame by frame examination of the video reveals that it is not a real plane. It shows impossible physical characteristics and behaviour. It passes through the wall like a ghost without making a hole and without breaking off any parts. The hole only appears well after the plane has entirely disappeared without disturbing the building. It exceeds the maximum speed of a Boeing 767 at low altitude while banked sharply and flying in the opposite direction to that in which its banking. It hip hops across the screen regularly alternating ,frame by frame, between supersonic speed and hovering motionless. It has a strange anomaly in the shape of the belly.

It is a fake. The plane is simply a movie.

Witness evidence for a large plane hitting the Sth tower is as elusive as for the Nth Tower and the Pentagon. There is a police transcript of a report of someone firing missiles.

UNQUOTE

And for abject rhetorical gymnastics (you have to read it a few times to figure out what the f*** he's saying) try this one for more on Gerard....
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/holmgren01.htm I assume veteran skeptics will recognize him as he's just about the founding father of whack-ass theories. Most of his crap has been debunked, but I'm sure he's out there carrying on. He's an Aussie - any Aussie skeptics reading?

As to the quote.... I'm sure the great Gerard Holmgren's not reading, but if he was:
Listen, Jackass, I watched that whole morning from the 20th floor of 10 Exchange Place in Jersey City. Just as I've said to the idiots who report no windows on the plane,.... the plane came in from more or less over our right shoulder - and it were a plane, bro! A big plane, a 767. There was not mistaking it. It was not a missile, not a film (did you really say that, above???? what a jerk), and not a lost seagull - it was a big roaring 767. I'll be happy to give you the names of about a hundred people who were in the building that day and watched it. (You can find 10 Exchange Place on a map -there was probably (and unfortunately for the nightmares I still have) not a better viewing spot for that strike.

And why are there no 'eyewitness' reports in the record you ask? Well, because it's on film, Gerard.... How many eyewitness reports are there on record of Ruby shooting Oswald? The film is the eyewitness!

(*spotted all the way from Brooklyn, Gravy... I love that... looking through all those towers between the East River and the WTC they could see "no windows"... and that's cited all over the place)

[Brainache]

"http://www.serendipity.li/wot/holmgren01.htm I assume veteran skeptics will recognize him as he's just about the founding father of whack-ass theories. Most of his crap has been debunked, but I'm sure he's out there carrying on. He's an Aussie - any Aussie skeptics reading? "

Damn! Here I was thinking that us Aussies were too smart to fall into the CT mindset. Oh well. Guess its time for another beer.:blush:

[Belz...]

As their leader, I commanded Wildcat, Hellaeon, and bjb to say those things.

If I can't be your second-in-command, can I be a special enforcer ??

[twinstead]

Huh? Do I understand correctly that some people claim that no planes hit WTC1 and 2?

[Cuddles]

Equating truth seekers with anti semites is one heck of an original angle, really hadn't heard that one before. I'll give you an F for originality. I thought Kill was exagerhating about credibility and maturity.

Truth seekers?

seek (sēk)

v., sought (sôt), seek·ing, seeks.

v.tr.
To try to locate or discover; search for.
To endeavor to obtain or reach: seek a college education.
To go to or toward: Water seeks its own level.
To inquire for; request: seek directions from a police officer.
To try; endeavor: seek to do good.
Obsolete. To explore.
v.intr.
To make a search or investigation: Seek and you will find.

[Middle English sechen, seken, from Old English sēcan.]

truth (trūth)
n., pl. truths (trūTHz, trūths).
Conformity to fact or actuality.
A statement proven to be or accepted as true.
Sincerity; integrity.
Fidelity to an original or standard.

Reality; actuality.
often Truth That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.
[Middle English trewthe, loyalty, from Old English trēowth.]

Perhaps you should consider a name change.

[Axiom_Blade]

Equating truth seekers with anti semites is one heck of an original angle, really hadn't heard that one before. I'll give you an F for originality. I thought Kill was exagerhating about credibility and maturity.

Do you have any idea how pretentious it sounds to refer to yourselves as "truth seekers"?

Don't exager-hate! Celebrate!

[kookbreaker]

Huh? Do I understand correctly that some people claim that no planes hit WTC1 and 2?

Yup.

[Cuddles]

Do you have any idea how pretentious it sounds to refer to yourselves as "truth seekers"?

Don't exager-hate! Celebrate!

Beat you! :p

[MortFurd]

Huh? Do I understand correctly that some people claim that no planes hit WTC1 and 2?
Absolutely correct, give that man a cigar!

There are a lot of nut cases out there who believe that no airplanes hit the WTC, who believe that flight 93 did not crash in Pennsylvania, that the passengers of flight 93 actually left the plane in Cleveland and were murdered, and a great long list of other insanities.

[Foolmewunz]

Sorry about the double posting, guys. I'm new here and the "back" button is playing tricks on me.

See cite above from Sword of Truth to verify the Anti-Semite comment, 911. Care to bring little brother Killcreep back to deny his denial? That ought to be fun!

Please do not call names.

[gumboot]

Huh? Do I understand correctly that some people claim that no planes hit WTC1 and 2?


Welcome to the world of CT. The no-planers are relatively sane compared to some others...

-Andrew

[Foolmewunz]

Equating truth seekers with anti semites is one heck of an original angle, really hadn't heard that one before. I'll give you an F for originality. I thought Kill was exagerhating about credibility and maturity.


Exager-hating!!! I love it:D

[Gravy]

If I can't be your second-in-command, can I be a special enforcer ??
Hold on a minute. Can I have a staff if I haven't even reached the rank of Globalist Henchman?

[Gravy]

Huh? Do I understand correctly that some people claim that no planes hit WTC1 and 2?
The most prominent is Morgan Reynolds (http://www.lewrockwell.com/reynolds/reynolds12.html), former Chief Economist in George W. Bush's first-term Department of Labor.

:eek:

[T.A.M.]

9/11 eyewitness. isnt that the 2h long recording from across the river. The one where we timed the fall of one of the towers at between 20-30 seconds instead of 10. ya I would like a thread to discuss that video.

[R.Mackey]

Great work Kill, the OCTers will need some serious medication when they finally wake from their slumbers. ;)

I notice they wont got near 911Eyewitness.
Welcome to the JREF Forum.

If you happen to speak to KillTown, please ask him (again) to address my questions regarding his website, from this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1844956&postcount=25). I understood that he was here to discuss the events of Sept. 11th, and I would like to continue that discussion. He seems to have overlooked my concerns.

You will note that I have not once insulted KillTown or yourself. Use the "search" function if you would like to verify this.

Also, I am not familiar with anyone named "911Eyewitness," but I would be glad to include him or her in the debate as well. Thanks.

[Belz...]

Hold on a minute. Can I have a staff if I haven't even reached the rank of Globalist Henchman?

Just speak to Delphi. It'll work in no time.

As to why the Henchman #1 would work as an enforcer for a recruit, well you just have to understand our globalist psychology for that; and if you don't, I'm not gonna tell you.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

[QUOTE=Killtown;1844728]
And thanks to Sword of Truth, we can say that not only are you a coward, you're an anti semitic sack of rule8!

Actually I think it was someone else who first noticed Killtowns holocaust denial at the LC goat rodeo.

Rather than quote me, here's Killtowns post:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7618

[negativ]

As their leader, I commanded Wildcat, Hellaeon, and bjb to say those things.

This bandwagon is going places. BIG places. How can I get on at LEAST at the "Minion" level? And assuming I make that, what do I have to do to graduate to "Henchman"?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10599

A question would be did the Nazi's try to systematically ethnically cleanse themselves of the Jews? One question I would be if the answer is yes, the Nazi's sure seemed to NOT use the quickest, cheapest and most efficient ways in doing that.

Cordoning off Jewish neighborhoods in cities, rounding them up and stuffing them into boxcars and shipping them to camps where they are fed en masse into gas chambers. Along with sending truck mounted mobile gas chambers into areas where railways aren't nearby... all this isn't "quick" or "efficient" to you, Killtown?

Please note, I'm not calling names.

I'm just asking questions here.

[Darth Rotor]

what do I have to do to graduate to "Henchman"?
Send a money order for $225 (US) to

Darth Rotor
Rat Cheer :D

DR

[Abbyas]

what do I have to do to graduate to "Henchman"?

I think what we really need is a mascot.

ETA: Oops, completely forgot about the ninjas.

[bjb]

Thanks for the link to Killtown's Holocaust denial thread. It is deserving of it's own thread here on the JREF forum as a classic example of the irrational thinking used to support Holocause denial. Now I feel foolish for having recommended Michael Shermer's book to Killtown.

In Killtown's defense, I have to say it is possible to be a Holocaust denier *without* being a Nazi or being anti-Semetic. For example, David Cole was a well-known Holocaust denier who happened to be Jewish. He wasn't interested in supporting Nazis nor did he complain about Zionist conspiracies. I think David Cole might be the person responsible for the video mentioned in Killtown's Holocause denial link.

In any case, it would be better to address Killtown's claims than to focus on him being a Nazi. Even if he were a Nazi and anti-semite, we are skeptics and we are supposed to evalute his claims for what they are. Otherwise, we are engaging in the same ad hominem behavior as Killtown.

Even so, it is fair to mention Killtown's interest in Holocaust denial. It doesn't disprove his claims, but it does show what kind of thoughts go on in his head. Reading through his Holocaust denial thread, it is very clear that he is not at all influenced by rational thought.

[WildCat]

That only applies to the guy who says he can see into my wicked soul, and that I'm in deep, deep trouble. He also said my shoes were inappropriate for debunking, and always accuses us of being paid intelligence operatives. Now when he talks like that I lean in really close to his face, give him the international cuckoo sign, and say "cuckoo" in a high-pitched voice. It's the highlight of my week.
You guys have to videotape this!!!!:D

[Abbyas]

You guys have to videotape this!!!!

I did, I did. I just don't have custody of the footage or editing software, so bare with me.

[realitybites]

I did, I did. I just don't have custody of the footage or editing software, so bare with me.
Can we get like a preview? Trailer? Something to whet the appetite?

[Stellafane]

Equating truth seekers with anti semites is one heck of an original angle, really hadn't heard that one before. I'll give you an F for originality. I thought Kill was exagerhating about credibility and maturity.

It may not be original, but it appears to be true, at least in many cases (including Killtown). How is pointing out the truth immature, exactly?

[Killtown]

It may not be original, but it appears to be true, at least in many cases (including Killtown). How is pointing out the truth immature, exactly?
Hi,

Can you please show me where you got the idea that I'm an anti-semite?

Thanks.

[Stellafane]

...so bare with me.

Ah, if only that wasn't a typo...

[Stellafane]

Hi,

Can you please show me where you got the idea that I'm an anti-semite?

Thanks.

OK:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7618

Technically, you're a Holocaust denier (or at least "Holocaust minimizer" if there is such a thing), which in my view equates to being an anti-Semite. But I suppose that view may be narrow; some here have pointed out that it's possible to be one and not the other. I have a difficult time accepting that, but since that is probably more my opinion than universally accepted fact, I withdraw my comment about you necessarily being anti-Semitic and offer my apology.

[WildCat]

I did, I did. I just don't have custody of the footage or editing software, so bare with me.
Yes, we should get bare together. Your place or mine? :p

[Killtown]

I withdraw my comment about you necessarily being anti-Semitic and offer my apology.
No, I don't accept it.

[Stellafane]

No, I don't accept it.

Good God, what a hypocite...you destroy an innocent woman's life because she took a picture that contradicts your demented delusions, then you presume to take offence because I equate your Holocaust denying with anti-Semitism.

OK, I withdraw my apology, and offer an amended statement: In my opinion, you're an anti-Semite.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Lisa Simpson, can I take the gloves off.

Please?

[R.Mackey]

Stellafane, to be pedantic, you need retract nothing. Killtown merely asked you to show "where you got the idea" that he is an anti-Semite. Your post meets his request. It does not prove that he is one, but that was not what was asked.

Killtown, I invite you to clarify that you are not an anti-Semite. I for one have not leapt to that conclusion.

[Killtown]

Killtown, I invite you to clarify that you are not an anti-Semite. I for one have not leapt to that conclusion.
Ok, I'm NOT an anti-semite.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Ok, I'm NOT an anti-semite.

So you're retracting what you've said on the LC boards about the holocaust and Isreali involvement in 9-11 and offering an apology for any jews you have offended?

[Killtown]

Sword_Of_Truth, what's the name you used to call me again?

[Skeptic Guy]

.... if you trip over your own rhetoric too many times they take away life points like they did to Juni in that third Spy Kids movie.....)



FOOLMEWUNZ, you actually saw the third Spy Kids movie? Ah man, I am sorry to hear that. :D

But what you said was spot on... thank you.

[Gravy]

So you're retracting what you've said on the LC boards about the holocaust and Isreali involvement in 9-11 and offering an apology for any jews you have offended?
Killtown?

And while you're at it, can you explain what you think is funny about this photoshopped feces on the graves of heroes who were murder victims?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879044e1cab7198b7.jpg

[Killtown]

why didn't you post the link where you found that Gravy and post what I EXACTLY said? Was it to take my words out of context?

[Skeptic Guy]

why didn't you post the link where you found that Gravy and post what I EXACTLY said? Was it to take my words out of context?

Killtown, why do you answer every question with a question? Can you please, just for once, answer any of the questions posed to you by Gravy or anyone else on the forum?

You are very good at saying a lot without really saying anything.

[Killtown]

Killtown, why do you answer every question with a question? Can you please, just for once, answer any of the questions posed to you by Gravy or anyone else on the forum?

You are very good at saying a lot without really saying anything.
If you don't like the way I debate, then don't bother responding to me.

[Regnad Kcin]

Debate with a closed minded, patronising, devious morally bankrupt lacky?

Okay.Why not? Wouldn't it feel good to put him in his place for all to see?

[Levantine]

If you don't like the way I debate, then don't bother responding to me.

Maybe you should start debating instead of embarassing yourself. I mean really - you've said nothing of substance here or anywhere else yet. A debate requires you to back up your points, not state them and run away like a coward. Do you like looking like a coward? I'm just asking questions here of course.

[Killtown]

Maybe you should start debating instead of embarassing yourself. I mean really - you've said nothing of substance here or anywhere else yet. A debate requires you to back up your points, not state them and run away like a coward. Do you like looking like a coward? I'm just asking questions here of course.
If you don't like me, don't debate with me.

[Gravy]

why didn't you post the link where you found that Gravy and post what I EXACTLY said? Was it to take my words out of context?
I did not take your words out of context. You reposted the picture on your own thresd and said that the feces on the graves of the heroic murder victims was "Funny."

Please explain what's funny about that. I'm sure everyone here would like to know.

Likewise, when I told you I posted as Murdervillage, linked to a post with unanswered questions directed to you, and asked if you would answer them in another thread, you answered with one word: "Yes."

You then tried to claim that "Yes" is not an unconditional word.

Please explain.

[Killtown]

There is nothing out of context.
Prove it.

[Levantine]

If you don't like me, don't debate with me.

Oh ok. I just wanted to make it clear. Just so we ARE clear, you DO enjoy looking like a coward and anti-semite? Just asking questions here, again, of course.

Hm... I'm turning out to be a master debator just like the great "leaders" of the Loose Change board. This is easier than I thought.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Killtown, are you going to apologize for your remarks about the Holocaust and you accusations against the isreali government or are you an anti-semite?

[Gravy]

Prove it.

Killtown Posted: Jul 5 2006, 06:35 AM
Veteran
Group: Members
Posts: 1,303
Member No.: 8
Joined: 10-February 06

that's gross. Funny! But gross.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879044e2aa8a971d5.jpg

Now, please explain what's "Funny!" about feces on the graves of heroic murder victims, Killtown.

[Killtown]

Gravy, you are try waaaaaaaaay too hard.

[Gravy]

Gravy, you are try waaaaaaaaay too hard.
You said "Prove it." I proved it. This is YOUR thread about maturity and credibility. Now please answer these questions, which I post for the second time:

I did not take your words out of context. You reposted the picture on your own thresd and said that the feces on the graves of the heroic murder victims was "Funny."

Please explain what's funny about that. I'm sure everyone here would like to know.

Likewise, when I told you I posted as Murdervillage, linked to a post with unanswered questions directed to you, and asked if you would answer them in another thread, you answered with one word: "Yes."

You then tried to claim that "Yes" is not an unconditional word.

Please explain.

[Dog Town]

Why do you bother w/KKK Clown ? His only reason for existance is to give carpal tunnel to y'all! He will never answer your questions. He can't !
I just micro'd some corn though, so have at it!

[Levantine]

Gravy, you are try waaaaaaaaay too hard.

Does being a professional punchline pay well? I'm curious because I've been looking for a career change. I'm not sure I have the chops for it like you, but still.

I shouldn't have to say it, but I will anyway - Gravy doesn't really have to try at all with you. You make it waaaaaaay too easy for him. Maybe you should actually learn to debate instead of pretending that "lalalalalalalala" is a defense against your detractors.

[Killtown]

You said "Prove it." I proved it. This is YOUR thread about maturity and credibility. Now please answer these questions, which I post for the second time:

I did not take your words out of context. You reposted the picture on your own thresd and said that the feces on the graves of the heroic murder victims was "Funny."

Please explain what's funny about that. I'm sure everyone here would like to know.

Likewise, when I told you I posted as Murdervillage, linked to a post with unanswered questions directed to you, and asked if you would answer them in another thread, you answered with one word: "Yes."

You then tried to claim that "Yes" is not an unconditional word.

Please explain.


I'll explain if Dog Town apologizes for grossly insulting me.

[Gravy]

I'll explain if Dog Town apologizes for grossly insulting me.
Dog Town didn't ask the questions. I did.

Your continued evasions speak volumes about your "maturity and credibility," Killtown.

[Earl The Tall]

I'll explain if Dog Town apologizes for grossly insulting me.

Why do you need to wait for an apology from Dog Town to explain yourself to Gravy, who has already came out and apologized for his remarks? Are you dodging another question?

EDIT: Damn Gravy your too fast.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I'll explain if Dog Town apologizes for grossly insulting me.

Your false piety and feigned offense are wearing thin. Especially in light of your repugnant beliefs regarding those of a differing faith.

[Killtown]

Your false piety and feigned offense are wearing thin. Especially in light of your repugnant beliefs regarding those of a differing faith.
Hey Sword, what's that name you used to call me again?

[Gravy]

Still evading.

[Darat]

As a general guideline "attack the argument not the arguer". The opening post of this thread was inappropriate for this section of the forum (Conspiracy Theories). Personal issues one Member may have other Members are not what this section of the forum is about. I shall leave the thread in place however if it continues to be be nothing more then personal exchanges then I will move it to "Abandon All Hope".

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I have a question for the UK truthers lurking here.

How would you feel if if it was The Blitz that Killtown was denying? Would you be so quick to cheer him on if it was YOUR grandparents and great grandparents that he was claiming never existed?

[Stellafane]

...He still hasn't explained the Jewish connection.

Since Killtown (eventually) referred me to his sig when I asked this question (repeatedly), I guess it's safe to assume he concluded a group of Israelis did it because he claims some picture or video exists that shows "five Israelis" allegedly celebrating the attack on the WTC. Of course, there were many other celebrations in various quarters that day. I remember seeing a wild party among a large group of Palestinians (way more than 5) on CNN. According to an eyewitness, a man of Middle Eastern appearance was celebrating on 9/11 on the Brooklyn Bridge while survivors were streaming across it to escape Manhattan on foot, smiling and chanting "My Arab brothers, my Arab brothers." (A policeman had to prevent a group of bystanders from tossing him off the bridge.)

Thus, based on Killtown's logic, we must conclude that 9/11 was a rare joint operation involving Israelis, Palestinians, Arabs, and who knows who else from among the Middle East menagerie. I know America isn't the most popular country in the world, but are we really so hated by everybody that even Israelis and Palestinians can put aside their differences and attack us?

[MortFurd]

Thus, based on Killtown's logic, we must conclude that 9/11 was a rare joint operation involving Israelis, Palestinians, Arabs, and who knows who else from among the Middle East menagerie.
You forgot the US gubmint. "They" organized the whole thing and bankrolled it, and covered it up afterwards by blaming it on some arabs.:rolleyes:

[Stellafane]

You forgot the US gubmint. "They" organized the whole thing and bankrolled it, and covered it up afterwards by blaming it on some arabs.:rolleyes:

So, am I the only one who didn't do it? C'mon guys, 'fess up, we're among friends here...

[MortFurd]

So, am I the only one who didn't do it? C'mon guys, 'fess up, we're among friends here...
Actually, the very fact that you can rationally discuss the subject and consider that there wasn't a government conspiracy automatically proves that you are a part of the conspiracy - either actively at the time of the attacks, or later as part of the cover up.

:eek::eek: :eek: Damn. I'm beginning to scare myself. I had no idea my mind could construct such gibberish.


By the way:
I didn't do it either, and I don't believe there was a government conspiracy. I had no idea I'd managed to be recruited into the conspiracy without my knowledge. So, how's the pay?

[Stellafane]

Actually, the very fact that you can rationally discuss the subject and consider that there wasn't a government conspiracy automatically proves that you are a part of the conspiracy - either actively at the time of the attacks, or later as part of the cover up...


While reading the above, I could swear I heard the sound of one hand clapping (or maybe it was a tree in a forest with no one there).

In any case, I think I just ceased to exist. Or I think I did. Which means I must still exist. Or I just think I do. Or...

[Foolmewunz]

So, am I the only one who didn't do it? C'mon guys, 'fess up, we're among friends here...

Actually, I'm still not decided on the issue. I believe I didn't do it, but with the black choppers and gamma rays and invisicrete and such, I can't be sure I'm not just being deluded by the gummint into believing I'm innocent. I will have to keep an open mind on the subject. But I'm sure if I was involved, it was the gay Jews who made me do it.

[MortFurd]

Actually, I'm still not decided on the issue. I believe I didn't do it, but with the black choppers and gamma rays and invisicrete and such, I can't be sure I'm not just being deluded by the gummint into believing I'm innocent. I will have to keep an open mind on the subject. But I'm sure if I was involved, it was the gay Jews who made me do it.

It was the gay Jew Illuminati Rosacrucians who made us do the things we all saw that didn't happen.

And I sure as hell didn't not do it. I was in an office in Germany listening to it not happen on radio.

Wasn't I?

[chipmunk stew]

So, am I the only one who didn't do it? C'mon guys, 'fess up, we're among friends here...
Everyone knows Abby did it (http://abbyscott.blogspot.com/2006/05/who-was-responsible-for-911.html).

[gumboot]

(or maybe it was a tree in a forest with no one there).



Thanks to our dear friend Judy Wood we now know for certain that a tree falling over in a forest sounds exactly like the WTC collapsing - unless CD is involved, of course.

-Andrew

[Skeptic]

In Killtown's defense, I have to say it is possible to be a Holocaust denier *without* being a Nazi or being anti-Semetic.

In theory, or by a lone nut or two, maybe--I would say that, apart from Cole (who since recanted), David Icke is also technically a holocaust denier but not an antisemite--in his case, his holocaust denial stems from the fact that he thinks all accepted history is a lie engineered by shape-shifting seven-foot-tall alien lizards (I'm not making this up, honest!). There are, I presume, other cases where holocaust denial is more an expression of paranoia and mental illness than of hatered of jews as such. Icke might as well claim slavery, or ancient Egypt, never existed.

But apart from such isolated examples, 99.9% of holocaust deniers are obviously and blatantly antisemitic (oops, I mean, "anti-zionists", wink wink, nudge nudge) and almost invariably pro-Nazi. The point of holocaust denial is to make Nazism respectable again.

[valis]

In theory, or by a lone nut or two, maybe--I would say that, apart from Cole (who since recanted), David Icke is also technically a holocaust denier but not an antisemite--in his case, his holocaust denial stems from the fact that he thinks all accepted history is a lie engineered by shape-shifting seven-foot-tall alien lizards (I'm not making this up, honest!). There are, I presume, other cases where holocaust denial is more an expression of paranoia and mental illness than of hatered of jews as such. Icke might as well claim slavery, or ancient Egypt, never existed.

But apart from such isolated examples, 99.9% of holocaust deniers are obviously and blatantly antisemitic (oops, I mean, "anti-zionists", wink wink, nudge nudge) and almost invariably pro-Nazi. The point of holocaust denial is to make Nazism respectable again.


While it is true that the Holocoust denial crowd seems to be all Nazis and anti semites it is also true, at least as far as I can tell, that they have come up with some facts here and there that were widely ridiculed and later turned out to be true.

That is more than I can say for the 9/11 crowd. There arguments are based on far less substance that holocoust deniers/revisonists.

[Skeptic]

While it is true that the Holocoust denial crowd seems to be all Nazis and anti semites it is also true, at least as far as I can tell, that they have come up with some facts here and there that were widely ridiculed and later turned out to be true.

I doubt this very much. For the most part, the "shocking holes in the official holocaust story" (e.g., the soap made of human flesh, the existence of gas chambers in Dachau, etc.) were known to be untrue for historians--real historians--for a very long time. But such discoveries--REAL holocaust revisionism, e.g., changing our view of what happened based on facts, documents, etc., and finding out that they do not always fit the popular view that laymen have of the issue--are not holocaust denial, nor had anybody ever claimed that they were; nor does anybody think that those who proposed those "heretical" theories are antisemitic, let alone Nazis.

Holocaust deniers never propose anything that's new to historians. What the holocaust deniers do is "discover" what--for historians--is old news, show that it doesn't fit with what the lay public thinks is the case, and use this as evidence for a "coverup". This is the same type of reasoning as creationists do: they "discover" that biologists no longer consider evolution to be (for example) directed towards ever-"higher" life forms, compare this to the general public's view that the monkey's purpose was to eventually become man, and use this as "proof" that evolution is in some sort of "crisis" due to this disagreement.

They forget to mention that the evidence all points towards the fact that, "revisionism" notwithstanding, everybody in biology agrees that yes, evolution DID occur, and everybody in history agrees that, yes, six million jews and six million others were killed by the Nazis for the "crime" of existing.