Question for Killtown

[gtc]

From Killtown's sig:

"Five of the Israelis came to the FBI's attention after they were seen by New Jersey residents on 9/11 making fun of the WTC ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture."

What page of the Globe and Mail was this article from?

From where in New Jersey were the WTC ruins and wreckage visible?

[defaultdotxbe]

follow-up question:

what is the implication of this? are these 5 men representative of the entire israeli population and those who support them?

[gtc]

follow-up question:

what is the implication of this? are these 5 men representative of the entire israeli population and those who support them?

The link to his blog implies that if they were happy about it, they must have done it.

[Killtown]

follow-up question:

what is the implication of this? are these 5 men representative of the entire israeli population and those who support them?
Follow the link. Follow the link.

[Killtown]

if they were happy about it, they must have done it.
What other logical explanation can there be for spies to act that way?

[defaultdotxbe]

The link to his blog implies that if they were happy about it, they must have done it.

so the happy israelis did, not the happy arabs?

http://aux.isifa.com/preview/afp_usa11092001_b_images/C__WINDOWS_Plocha_images_RPP2001091120189_Palestin ians_celebrate_at_the_Palestinian_refugee_camp_of_ Shatila_in_Beirut_11_September_2001.jpg

[gtc]

What other logical explanation can there be for spies to act that way?

Do you have any evidence that they were spies and that they acted that way?

Even the original article would be a start.

Secondly, as defaultdotxbe shows, celebrating something isn't the same as doing something.

I was glad to see Saddam captured, doesn't mean I caught him.

[Killtown]

1) Do you have any evidence that they were spies and that they acted that way?

2) Secondly, as defaultdotxbe shows, celebrating something isn't the same as doing something.

3) I was glad to see Saddam captured, doesn't mean I caught him.
1) Follow the link, follow the link.

2) Staged.

3) " one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture"

why would he be celebrating? Does he hate America, along with his friends?

[Gravy]

Are questions evidence?

[gtc]

2) Staged.

1) Evidence? This website (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm) disagrees

2) If the dancing Israeli story is true, how do you know that it wasn't staged.

The article you quote says that:

"federal officials appear to believe they are either Muslim extremists hiding behind false Israeli identities or spies working for the Mossad"

3) How do you know they were Mossad and not Muslim extremists?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Look carefully at the dates in the articles in Killtowns sig.

90% of them are all from the first week or month after 9-11. Default and I talked about this before and each conducting our own searches, we found that virtually all the "dancing isreali" stories are from the immedeate aftermath (when the fog of warn is at its thickest) or from conspiracy sites.

The latest date among the articles Killtown linked to is from december of 2002. But that article is a verbatim reprint of an earlier article from the fog-of-war period. The next most recent dated article discussing the dancers is from december 2001. Again, more fog of war.

The dancing isrealis are much like the "surviving" hijackers. Early post-event noise that the truthers have taken to quoting as gospel. Except this one has been taken up especially by the anti-semitic elements among the truthers.

Once again, it all comes back to them jooooos.

[chacal]

I remembered listening to Alex Jones interviewing some cop who had been arresting these dancing Israelis. But it was long time ago.

With little Googling I found the greatest source ever: LC forum and Monsieur Roxdog.

Alex Jones interviews New Jersey Chief of Police Jack Schmidig:
AJ: Well, that’s what I find. I want to shift gears – just because a listener emailed this to me this morning. This is not why I got you on the show but I find it incredibly intriguing. And again my friends, we are talking to the chief of police in the country of Bergen in New Jersey. And he’s taken the implantable microship. But I was sent this by several listeners. It’s still a hot topic. I have Fox news here in front of me. I have the New York Post and I have the Bergen Record. Bergen Record, the town you’re in.

“Five Men Detained as Suspected Conspirators,” by Paula Lima, staff writer. And in there, it’s got a quote from you. You got an alert to be on the look-out for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and writing on the side.

JS: Oh, that was during 9/11.

AJ: I know it, this is a totally separate issue. This is interesting. Suspicious Middle Easterners cheer terror attack from moving van. And then it turned out in Fox News that it was Israelis. What actually happened with that sir?

JS: We turned those people over to the FBI. They were thoroughly checked out and released. No charges were ever filed against those people.

AJ: Well, what about the witnesses that said they saw them jumping up and cheering and videotaping?

JS: That was the information reported to us. We couldn’t confirm through the witnesses – no one would identify themselves. They said that they saw this white van with several people applauding or cheering the attack on the Trade Center. And when we finally found the van, located the van, no one would step forward to verify that they were in fact celebrating.

AJ: Well, I’ve got Israeli national news here. It says “suspicious Middle Eastern movers were Israelis.” The box cutters, European passports and $4000 cash. Is that accurate?

JS: I’m not sure. I don’t remember all the details of that particular case. Like I said, when we first located the van, we notified the FBI and they came and scooped them up. Ask the guy in the New Jersey State police.

AJ: How did that happen? You pulled them over and what happened …?

JS: We had a ‘be on the look-out’ for a particular type of van. We notified patrol officers, found it, located it, we pulled them over, and we detained them. And then we notified the state police and the FBI who work in the joint terrorism task force.

AJ: Were you aware of the hundreds of Israeli art students that were really spies and they were (quote) following al Qaeda. This was even on Fox News and the Associated Press. And then they grabbed them and then they were ordered to release them to Israel. Did you hear about that?

JS: No

AJ: Did they have any video cameras on them. And then secondarily, how many days after 9/11 was this arrest?

JS: It was…I believe it occurred the night of 9/11. I’m not sure.

AJ: Did you find any video cameras on them?

JS: No. I don’t recall any video cameras on them but like I said, being in an administrative position, I don’t do the road work anymore and it gets passed down to my detective captain and, unfortunately, he’s not here today.

AJ: What’s his name?

JS: Capt. Kevin Hartnet.

AJ: Can I get Kevin Hartnet on about that?

JS: If he’s willing to come on, I’m sure. I don’t have an objection.

AJ: Well this issue just keeps coming up over and over again.

JS: It was a hot button issue. After 9/11, they wanted any kind of attention they could get. And they kept re-running and repeating those catch-phrases there. And if I goggle my own name, it comes up with that quote about four or five times.

AJ: But it’s true that they wouldn’t talk to you – that shows some pretty serious training. How many people do you pull over… how many were arrested?

JS: I thought there were three or four but I’m not sure.

AJ: I mean if you have four people and none of them talk – boy, that’s pretty – do you see that a lot?

JS: No

AJ: Yeah, you don’t see that a lot, do you? I mean you’re usually, according to criminology – and I took a little bit of it in college. I don’t have a degree in it but when you end up with one person who won’t talk, you end up with two, three, four. Usually when you end up with four people, it means there was some pretty serious training going on.

JS: Once again, I don’t know their background. We received some information. We stopped them and then we turned them over to people more interested in them [crosstalk]

AJ: How long did they interrogate them?

JS: than a local police department in New Jersey.

AJ: How long did you interrogate?

JS: We didn’t participate in the interrogation. They were turned over to the State Police.

AJ: You talked to them and they didn’t..

JS: Well, we talked to them at the road stop.

AJ: And then were they brought into the jail or were they just given right over to the FBI?

JS: I think they were taken to the FBI’s field office in Newark but I’m not sure.

AJ: What did the FBI say?

JS: I don’t know.

AJ: Did you ever ask them what came of it?

JS: Mr. Jones, you know you’re talking – we started on one subject, now we are on another.

AJ: I know but I didn’t put two and two together when I saw your name, getting the microchip. And then I started getting emails about it. And I go oh yeah, I remember this article. It’s an interesting topic.

JS: This was a very interesting day, September 11th, 2001. And a lot of ..

AJ: Did you see the towers smoking when it happened?

JS: Absolutely.

AJ: What was that like?

JS: It was terrible. It was terrible.

AJ: I wish we would control our borders, that might keep us safe.

JS: (laughs) You have to talk to another agency on that.

the thread:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7598

Roxdog hadn't provided source for this interview. I guess it's about what I remembered.

Anyway, Schmidig didn't seem to be worried that these Israelis had something to do with 9/11.

[Matthew Best]

" one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture"

I know whenever I celebrate, say after Crystal Palace beat Leeds at football, flicking a cigarette lighter is one of the first things that comes to mind to do.

:rolleyes:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I remembered listening to Alex Jones interviewing some cop who had been arresting these dancing Israelis. But it was long time ago.

With little Googling I found the greatest source ever: LC forum and Monsieur Roxdog.

Alex Jones interviews New Jersey Chief of Police Jack Schmidig:


the thread:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=7598

Roxdog hadn't provided source for this interview. I guess it's about what I remembered.

Anyway, Schmidig didn't seem to be worried that these Israelis had something to do with 9/11.

Yeah, and he couldn't get witnesses to go on record. I wonder if these reluctant witnesses didn't embellish thier stories a little?

And why the mention of the boxcutters? Is the prescence of boxcutters in your basic working van somehow unusual? And don't the Alex Jones crew believe that no boxcutters or even real hijackers were involved?

[Johnny Pixels]

I know whenever I celebrate, say after Crystal Palace beat Leeds at football, flicking a cigarette lighter is one of the first things that comes to mind to do.

:rolleyes:

Freebird!

[Cuddles]

3) " one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture"

why would he be celebrating? Does he hate America, along with his friends?

Simple answer - yes. Amazing as it may seem, many people hate America and would happily celebrate anything involving the deaths of Americans, especially something as big as this. This in no way implies that they are spies or that they did it, only that they are happy about it, in the same way people celebrated when Saddam was captured.

[gumboot]

I remembered listening to Alex Jones interviewing some cop who had been arresting these dancing Israelis. But it was long time ago.

Alex Jones interviews New Jersey Chief of Police Jack Schmidig:

Anyway, Schmidig didn't seem to be worried that these Israelis had something to do with 9/11.


It's always entertaining reading or listening to an Alex Jones interview. It's amazing how much of the "information" in the interview is actually just his own personal speculation - not the opinion of the "expert". Like the whole thing about four people not talking means a lot of training.

-Andrew

[Mid]

What other logical explanation can there be for spies to act that way?

Ok even if we except that 5 Israelis were celebrating the destruction of the WTC, how the Hell does that make them spies? If they were spies they would have to be some of the most incompetent spies ever. Although I imagine their debriefing if they were spies would have been fun as they explained their dancing around like complete tits to their superiors.

[sleahead]

Killtown, I want to know if you stand by this statement in respect of the plane hitting one of the towers and, if so, what evidence you have to support it?.

Killtown Posted: Jul 6 2006, 08:09 PM


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And the videos show the "plane" traveling half than the claimed 590mph, so most of the plane should have bounced off.

[Foolmewunz]

Ok even if we except that 5 Israelis were celebrating the destruction of the WTC, how the Hell does that make them spies? If they were spies they would have to be some of the most incompetent spies ever. Although I imagine their debriefing if they were spies would have been fun as they explained their dancing around like complete tits to their superiors.

Yeah, I guess it's part of that "training" we're so steeped in! I know that after a hard day of spying, me and Moishe and Izzy like to go look at our handiwork and dance around whooping it up, and making little devil fingers over each other's heads while the neighbors watch. Oh, back at Mossad HQ they get quite a chuckle out of that. And of course, when snagged by the police? Why we just remain silent and don't bother with the four alter-egos our spymasters in Tel Aviv gave us, nor rely on our well rehearsed cover stories.... Now that's some training! No wonder we're able to control the world!

[Gravy]

Ok even if we except that 5 Israelis were celebrating the destruction of the WTC, how the Hell does that make them spies? If they were spies they would have to be some of the most incompetent spies ever. Although I imagine their debriefing if they were spies would have been fun as they explained their dancing around like complete tits to their superiors.
Mid, you're forgetting that all of the guilty characters in this drama were schooled at The Academy of But Before I Upend This Bucket of Army Ants on Your Manhood, Mr. Bond, I Feel the Overwhelming Urge to Divulge to You and You Alone My Plan for World Domination.

Cheney: "Of course the order to not shoot down the attacking planes still stands, dumbkopf, and if you don't believe me just ask everyone else in this room."

Rumsfeld: "Parade Magazine, have I got a scoop for you: the Pentagon was hit by a missile, not a plane! Put that in your Word Jumble!"

Silverstein: "Feeding on the public teat has really made you PBS documentarians sluggish. Do you think i have all day to calmly tell the world that I destroyed my own buildings?"

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

Yeah, I guess it's part of that "training" we're so steeped in! I know that after a hard day of spying, me and Moishe and Izzy like to go look at our handiwork and dance around whooping it up, and making little devil fingers over each other's heads while the neighbors watch. Oh, back at Mossad HQ they get quite a chuckle out of that. And of course, when snagged by the police? Why we just remain silent and don't bother with the four alter-egos our spymasters in Tel Aviv gave us, nor rely on our well rehearsed cover stories.... Now that's some training! No wonder we're able to control the world!
That's the most incredible thing about the 9/11 CT. They would have you believe that the entire plot was both unbelievable, diabolically brilliant, and mind-numbingly stupid at the same time.

They can project plane holograms, build explosives into the WTC, detonate three WTC buildings in plain sight of millions of people, shoot the Pentagon with a missile without anyone noticing that it wasn't a plane, fake another plane crashing in a field, and digitally recreate passengers' voices to make calls to their families.

But at the same time the Government cannot keep a bl*wjob in the Oval Office secret, can't even plant one weapon of mass destruction in Iraq, allows their president to get almost single digit approval ratings because of backlash over the war in Iraq, and allows their spies to go back to the scene of the crime to dance and whoop it up in front of the police and the FBI.

But who will expose the most complex, mind-bogglingly brilliant, mind-numbingly stupid secret ever kept in the history of the United States to the world? Yep, of course. A couple of teenagers with a Quicktime video on MySpace.

[chipmunk stew]

But who will expose the most complex, mind-bogglingly brilliant, mind-numbingly stupid secret ever kept in the history of the United States to the world? Yep, of course. A couple of teenagers with a Quicktime video on MySpace.
Life trying desperately to imitate art.

[Regnad Kcin]

And the videos show the "plane" traveling half than the claimed 590mph, so most of the plane should have bounced off.(Sigh.)

[Cuddles]

(Sigh.)

Obviously planes transmute to rubber below a certain critical velocity.

[MortFurd]

Obviously planes transmute to rubber below a certain critical velocity.
Nah.

Airliners are made of silly putty. At struck low speed is squishes and gives. Struck at highspeed it shatters. The WTCs were brought down because the planes hit at above shatter speed. The force of the silly putty explosion is what brought down the towers at freefall speed. ;)

[Cuddles]

Nah.

Airliners are made of silly putty. At struck low speed is squishes and gives. Struck at highspeed it shatters. The WTCs were brought down because the planes hit at above shatter speed. The force of the silly putty explosion is what brought down the towers at freefall speed. ;)

I think this sounds testable. Does anyone have a ton of silly putty and a large building I can borrow?

[Brainache]

I think this sounds testable. Does anyone have a ton of silly putty and a large building I can borrow?

And of course the silly-putty theory also explains the "Pull It" order on WT7

[MortFurd]

I think this sounds testable. Does anyone have a ton of silly putty and a large building I can borrow?

Will a hand full of silly putty and a house of cards do?

[gumboot]

Will a hand full of silly putty and a house of cards do?

No I'm afraid that wouldn't be a realistic experiment at all. Unless the playing cards were made of chicken wire.

-Andrew

[jon]

That's the most incredible thing about the 9/11 CT. They would have you believe that the entire plot was both unbelievable, diabolically brilliant, and mind-numbingly stupid at the same time.

They can project plane holograms, build explosives into the WTC, detonate three WTC buildings in plain sight of millions of people, shoot the Pentagon with a missile without anyone noticing that it wasn't a plane, fake another plane crashing in a field, and digitally recreate passengers' voices to make calls to their families.

But at the same time the Government cannot keep a bl*wjob in the Oval Office secret, can't even plant one weapon of mass destruction in Iraq, allows their president to get almost single digit approval ratings because of backlash over the war in Iraq, and allows their spies to go back to the scene of the crime to dance and whoop it up in front of the police and the FBI.


Yeah, and you'd think after all that trouble with missiles, explosives etc. They would at least have done a better job at faking a trail of evidence leading back to Iraq/Iran/Syria etc... Mossad is simultaeneously viewed as evil, ruthless and almost all-powerful, but at the same time people argue that it warned the Jews in WTC not to go in that day (would such an evil agency really care about a few lives?), and - well, this is a new argument to me, - allowed Israeli citizens or spies to celebrate by the rubble of their 'successful' attack :jaw-dropp

At any rate, the simple explanation for the 'dancing Israelis' (assuming the story's accurate) is just that some Israelis are stupid b****rds. Apparently, you find some among every nationality.

[MortFurd]

No I'm afraid that wouldn't be a realistic experiment at all. Unless the playing cards were made of chicken wire.

-Andrew
Ah, heck. I figured playing cards were more substantial than the CTer's ideas.

[Overman]

Ha!

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

Yeah, and you'd think after all that trouble with missiles, explosives etc. They would at least have done a better job at faking a trail of evidence leading back to Iraq/Iran/Syria etc... Mossad is simultaeneously viewed as evil, ruthless and almost all-powerful, but at the same time people argue that it warned the Jews in WTC not to go in that day (would such an evil agency really care about a few lives?), and - well, this is a new argument to me, - allowed Israeli citizens or spies to celebrate by the rubble of their 'successful' attack :jaw-dropp

At any rate, the simple explanation for the 'dancing Israelis' (assuming the story's accurate) is just that some Israelis are stupid b****rds. Apparently, you find some among every nationality.
In Ottawa, we had an incident on Canada Day where three idiots were photographed urinating on the War Memorial (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006/07/05/ott-peelaw.html).

I must therefore conclude that these three kids killed our veterans!

I'm outraged! Where's my Quicktime video about this conspiracy?

[Killtown]

1) Evidence? This website (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm) disagrees

2) If the dancing Israeli story is true, how do you know that it wasn't staged.

The article you quote says that:

"federal officials appear to believe they are either Muslim extremists hiding behind false Israeli identities or spies working for the Mossad"

3) How do you know they were Mossad and not Muslim extremists?
1) Snopes? Please. Their Pentagon conspiracy debunk attempt (http://killtown.911review.org/flight77/debunking/snopes.html) was appalling.

Plus, I'm not saying they used old footage, I'm saying "they" made the Pals celebrate to make it look like (http://killtown.911review.org/oddities/911.html#Palestinians_rejoicing) they were celebrating the attacks.

2) Because the spies admit they were there.

3) See #2.

[Killtown]

Simple answer - yes. Amazing as it may seem, many people hate America and would happily celebrate anything involving the deaths of Americans, especially something as big as this. This in no way implies that they are spies or that they did it, only that they are happy about it, in the same way people celebrated when Saddam was captured.
They were Israeli spies.

[defaultdotxbe]

2) Because the spies admit they were there.

3) See #2.

They were Israeli spies.

because all spies are trained to admit this when captured by another intelligence agency, right?

[twinstead]

Snopes? Please. There Pentagon conspiracy debunk attempt was appalling.

Now see, that's what makes you so aggravating, and makes the high fives back at LC saying you kicked butt here so comical.

Perhaps you could tells us WHY you think it was appalling, instead of jumping here, spouting a bunch of nothing, and then scurrying off.

And perhaps you could gather your evidence and seek out some professional structural engineers and ask their opinion, as was suggested earlier.

[Darth Rotor]

They were Israeli spies.
If they have not been caught (yet) how can that be proven, or maybe I should ask, what makes you so confident in that assertion?

They may have been spies, or something else. How do you confirm that they were spies?

Note: There have been spies, like Pollard, who have spied for Tel Aviv in the US. Presuming the possibility of Israeli spies/agents on US soil is not too much of a stretch. It doesn't necessarily follow that those gents were in fact Israeli agents.

What reasoning and facts do you use to support this conclusion?

PS: How many Arab Muslims do you know personally? My discussions with a few (less than a dozen) a couple of years ago, in their homeland, indicated to me that some Muslims in the Arab world were glad to see the Big Bad America get a black eye.

Just because Arabs don't like Israelis does not mean they don't also dislike Americans. It depends on the Arab, and his world view.

DR

[Killtown]

If they have not been caught (yet) how can that be proven, or maybe I should ask, what makes you so confident in that assertion?

They may have been spies, or something else. How do you confirm that they were spies?

Note: There have been spies, like Pollard, who have spied for Tel Aviv in the US. Presuming the possibility of Israeli spies/agents on US soil is not too much of a stretch. It doesn't necessarily follow that those gents were in fact Israeli agents.

What reasoning and facts do you use to support this conclusion?

DR
Follow the link in my sig.

[aggle-rithm]

They were Israeli spies.

So, what function did they serve, other than to celebrate at ground zero?

This should be good.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Has it occurred to anyone that maybe Isrealis might haver a legitimate reason to "celebrate" 9-11?

There's a story I heard (it may be apocryphal, I can't find an original source for it) that the day after Pearl Harbor, Winston Churchill passed out champagne to his cabinet and announced "Gentlemen, we have just won the war!"

Israel has been knee-deep in islamist terror for decades. In terms of percentage of total population lost, during the last barrage of suicide bombings, Israel was experiencing its own 9-11 almost once a week.

If an Israeli had reason to believe that the American giant had at last been awakened as it was in december of 1941, do you think he might dance?

[defaultdotxbe]

Has it occurred to anyone that maybe Isrealis might haver a legitimate reason to "celebrate" 9-11?

There's a story I heard (it may be apocryphal, I can't find an original source for it) that the day after Pearl Harbor, Winston Churchill passed out champagne to his cabinet and announced "Gentlemen, we have just won the war!"

Israel has been knee-deep in islamist terror for decades. In terms of percentage of total population lost, during the last barrage of suicide bombings, Israel was experiencing its own 9-11 almost once a week.

If an Israeli had reason to believe that the American giant had at last been awakened as it was in december of 1941, do you think he might dance?

to benefit from something proves you did it

just ask anyone who collected a family members life insurance, youll find their all murderers

[jon]

Follow the link in my sig.

All that the link in your sig shows is an assertion that these alleged dancing Israelis were 'in on' the attack, a newspaper story that certainly doesn't confirm this, and a broken link to another forum. Are you going to provide any evidence of this, or not? Why is the simplest explanation - these alleged dancing Israelis were b***ards, and not terribly bright - not the best one?

One other question: if these men were Mossad agents 'in on' the attack, why on earth would they do something that jaw-droppingly stupid? Training in Mossad is generally seen as relatively good, and standards for recruitment pretty high (Israel's army and intelligence services have helped with US training for 'counter-insurgency' warfare). Now, where in the Mossad training manual does it say - blow up building in super top secret conspiracy, then dance by the wreckage and take a photo to send to the folks back home?

One other thing - I'm not that well up on the press in that area. Is the paper the story was in a reliable one?

[Darth Rotor]

Follow the link in my sig.
Thank you. That isn't the first time I have seen those articles.
For the FBI, deciphering the truth from the five Israelis proved to be difficult. One of them, Paul Kurzberg, refused to take a lie-detector test for 10 weeks — then failed it, according to his lawyer. Another of his lawyers told us Kurzberg had been reluctant to take the test because he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country.

Sources say the Israelis were targeting these fund-raising networks because they were thought to be channeling money to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, groups that are responsible for most of the suicide bombings in Israel. "[The] Israeli government has been very concerned about the activity of radical Islamic groups in the United States that could be a support apparatus to Hamas and Islamic Jihad," Cannistraro said.
This is a bit like the Brits who quietly came to America to find the American Irish in Boston who kept giving money to the IRA. Further comment on that I leave to Brits.

Now, the presence of a likely Mossad front to an operation is a reasonable conclusion. I don't find the tie in to the WTC attack as compelling as you do. Let me explain why.

Is it within the realm of reasonable behavior that these gents were convinced, giddily so, that Americans were now going to go kick someone's butt, likely someone Arab (who else does suicide attacks these days, eh?) and become more supportive of Israel's efforts versus Arabs now that American had been attacked?

I think it is.

I find puzzling FBI and CIA's trouble with figuring out what was going on, unless, the postulated Mossad operation was part of a joint US/Mossad op to chase down Arab terror supporters in the US, and thus a cover was being employed so as not to blow that op. (whoops, it was blown by idiots acting out in public in that case)

How familiar are you with intelligence work? A likely disconnect between FBI and CIA pipes is one path of reasoning, but not a conclusive answer.

I understand your suspicions.

Look at it, the WTC event, from the point of view of a born and bred Israeli for a moment.

Given the PLO driven Intafada's impact on Israel for the preceding decade, with the parallel efforts by Pres Clinton to force a "settlement" between the Palestinians and Israel, I get the impression that many Israeli's felt that Americans simply didn't "get" their problem with the continuing waves of suicide bombings and other violence. Again, consider looking at this through the view point of a guy from Israel. Similarly, consider the point of view of the average plumber or bus driver in Bagdad, February of 2003: Hey, Saddam is a jerk, but he's our jerk! You Americans stay out of my country!

To a group of Israeli's, whose first loyalty is to Israel and not the US (they aren't the only foreigners/illegal aliens whose loyalty is to another land, comprende?) an event of WTC magnitude would be a cause for second order joy: America will now be more on our side and won't be so sympathetic to the Palestinians. From their chauvinistic point of view, Americans had been indifferent to their having to put up with suicide attacks for years. That doesn't mean they were behind the attack, but would be pleased with the downstream effects of the result.

I am guessing, of course, and doubt my thoughts will change your mind.

The whole escapade does raise more questions than answers.

Likely Mossad agents? OK, I'll buy it.

Necessarily involved in and part of the WTC operation? Linkage not shown, merely inferred.

Your suspicion: their complicity has been deliberately hushed up by our government.

Do I have that right?

DR

[Killtown]

Follow my link to the articles and make up your own opinions about why these Israeli agents were filming themselves celebrating as the WTC was burning and people were jumping out of the buildings. There is really not more I can say about this.

http://www.networkworld.com/weblogs/layer8/lighter.jpg

[jon]

Follow my link to the articles and make up your own opinions about why these Israeli agents were filming themselves celebrating as the WTC was burning and people were jumping out of the buildings. There is really not more I can say about this.


Texts like these newspaper articles can always be interpreted in a number of different ways. Can't you offer any arguments as to why they should be interpreted how you want: it's certainly not obvious to me. After all, that's not usually the way debate works: one paragraph of assertions, a few cut-and-pasted news articles, and you prove that Mossad orchestrated a massive conspiracy.

Just to get this straight, you'd discount all the evidence for the 'official' version of events, but then expect others to accept your view based on one paragraph of assertions of your blog and a few news articles. Is this really what you're saying?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Follow my link to the articles and make up your own opinions about why these Israeli agents were filming themselves celebrating as the WTC was burning and people were jumping out of the buildings. There is really not more I can say about this.

http://www.networkworld.com/weblogs/layer8/lighter.jpg

You haven't proved that they were israeli agents.

You haven't proved that they were celebrating.

You haven't proved that they were filming.

You haven't proved that you aren't Mel Gibson.

[Darth Rotor]

You haven't proved that they were israeli agents.

He doesn't have to. There was enough in those articles to pretty well suitcase the cover op angle, though it's purpose is left open to surmise. I take the Occam's razor and consider the "source" who noted Mossad's assistance with the Hamas fund raising case as pretty close to a US government affirmation.

The sources cited by the author of the article, that the Israeli's admitted they'd been running an op without pre coordination, and the standard "false student visa" dodge, the illegal alien angle.

Glad they got deported.

DR

[Sword_Of_Truth]

He doesn't have to. There was enough in those articles to pretty well suitcase the cover op angle, though it's purpose is left open to surmise. I take the Occam's razor and consider the "source" who noted Mossad's assistance with the Hamas fund raising case as pretty close to a US government affirmation.

The sources cited by the author of the article, that the Israeli's admitted they'd been running an op without pre coordination, and the standard "false student visa" dodge, the illegal alien angle.

Glad they got deported.

DR

Yes, he does.

No, there is not sufficient evidence to indicate they were active serving agents.

Aside from them all being "joos", of course.

[Cuddles]

3) " one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture"

why would he be celebrating? Does he hate America, along with his friends?

Simple answer - yes. Amazing as it may seem, many people hate America and would happily celebrate anything involving the deaths of Americans, especially something as big as this. This in no way implies that they are spies or that they did it, only that they are happy about it, in the same way people celebrated when Saddam was captured.

They were Israeli spies.

Now do you really think that statement added anything to the discussion? You asked why they would celebrate and if they really hated America. I said "Yes" and pointed out why this could happen. You made a completely unfounded assertion with no relation to the original point. Could this be why no-one can quite manage to take you seriously?

Also, stop posting links to your blog. If you have evidence, show us. If you want to make more unfounded statements, fine but we'll ignore them. We are not here to boost your blog's ratings.

[sleahead]

Follow my link to the articles and make up your own opinions about why these Israeli agents were filming themselves celebrating as the WTC was burning and people were jumping out of the buildings. There is really not more I can say about this.

http://www.networkworld.com/weblogs/layer8/lighter.jpg

I don't know why they did what they did. However, their behaviour indicates to me that they had nothing at all to do with any 9/11 "conspiracy". Unless, Killtown, you reply to previous posters requests and explain exactly how a visable celibration involving five dancing Israelis was an essential element of the "conspirators" evil plan.

[Killtown]

I don't know why they did what they did. However, their behaviour indicates to me that they had nothing at all to do with any 9/11 "conspiracy". Unless, Killtown, you reply to previous posters requests and explain exactly how a visable celibration involving five dancing Israelis was an essential element of the "conspirators" evil plan.
Hmmm, let's see. The claim of an inside job with Israeli inolvment. Israel spies caught filming/celebrating the WTC being attacked and pulled over with suspicious stuff in the white van.

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

Yeah you are right, "no suspicion" there.

[defaultdotxbe]

Hmmm, let's see. The claim of an inside job with Israeli inolvment. Israel spies caught filming/celebrating the WTC being attacked and pulled over with suspicious stuff in the white van.

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

Yeah you are right, "no suspicion" there.

your going on the presumption that there is an inside job headed by israeli elements

i can cite dozens of instances of arabs celebrating the destruction of the towers both on 9/11 and after, why are the celebrating israelis involved and not the celebrating arabs?

[Cuddles]

your going on the presumption that there is an inside job headed by israeli elements

i can cite dozens of instances of arabs celebrating the destruction of the towers both on 9/11 and after, why are the celebrating israelis involved and not the celebrating arabs?

Because that's the official story. You wouldn't want to go round supporting that.

[sleahead]

Hmmm, let's see. The claim of an inside job with Israeli inolvment. Israel spies caught filming/celebrating the WTC being attacked and pulled over with suspicious stuff in the white van.

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

Yeah you are right, "no suspicion" there.

I still fail to see a role for five Israelis in this so-called inside job. Why would the "conspirators" want them filming. Not enough TV news coverage? If you can come up with some some bizarre reason why, let me know. If they really had to film it, it would be discretely, from inside a room and there would be no ride in a white van with suspicious stuff. Please explain what part of the inside job required them to be filming outside, dancing and celebrating in plain view and then going for a ride in a van with suspicious stuff inside.

[chipmunk stew]

Hmmm, let's see. The claim of an inside job with Israeli inolvment. Israel spies caught filming/celebrating the WTC being attacked and pulled over with suspicious stuff in the white van.

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

Yeah you are right, "no suspicion" there.
The event is only suspicious after you conclude that there was Israeli involvement in 9/11.
Therefore, you can't use the event as evidence of Israeli involvement in 9/11.
Doing so has a name: circular reasoning.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Hmmm, let's see. The claim of an inside job with Israeli inolvment.

Evidence?

Israel spies caught filming/celebrating the WTC being attacked

Who says they were celebrating?

and pulled over with suspicious stuff in the white van.

What was found in the van that was suspicious and why?

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

Now Israel is in on it too??

The 9/11 CT was preposterous when it was just the Gub'mint and countless thousands of other Americans involved in the cover-up. But now a whole other country is involved!

Do you have any idea how many people we're talking now that would be involved and aren't talking? 5,000? 10,000?

Honestly, this makes sense to you??

[Killtown]

Now Israel is in on it too??

The 9/11 CT was preposterous when it was just the Gub'mint and countless thousands of other Americans involved in the cover-up. But now a whole other country is involved!

Do you have any idea how many people we're talking now that would be involved and aren't talking? 5,000? 10,000?

Honestly, this makes sense to you??
Yes, ALL of Israel was behind it too. The Israeli gov't went to each of it's citizens and asked them if they'd all be apart of it.

:rolleyes:

[Buckwheatjones]

I liked the part about the planes bouncing off the towers. BOINGGGGG!

Even if the planes had been constructed from pencil erasers I doubt they'd have "bounced off the towers." Besides, have you had any sort of authority (physicist, mathematician) support the claim that they were not travelling at the reported speed? Just looking at the video the way you looked at McClatchey's photo and going.."Hmmm. That cant' be right. I Must Be Right."

God. I can't believe I'm responding to this. That's 60 seconds I wish I had back.

[SRW]

1) Snopes? Please. Their Pentagon conspiracy debunk attempt (http://killtown.911review.org/flight77/debunking/snopes.html) was appalling.

Plus, I'm not saying they used old footage, I'm saying "they" made the Pals celebrate to make it look like (http://killtown.911review.org/oddities/911.html#Palestinians_rejoicing) they were celebrating the attacks.

2) Because the spies admit they were there.

3) See #2.

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/wb/xp-78171

Religious stereotyping of the Arab-Israel conflict is equally fallacious. For example, 20 percent of the population of the Jewish state is composed of Arab Muslims who are loyal to Israel. Members of the Muslim sect called Druze constitute an elite fighting force that has fiercely fought for Israel.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

So to say that these 5 people were Israeli Jews is not necessarily correct. In fact 1 out of every 5 Israelis is a Muslim so It could well be that the lighter flicking guy was the token Muslim who is obligated to travel with the Jews. And the celebratory jumping up and down could easily be explained by the normal form of communication between these two groups of Israelis.

When ever four Israelis Jews encounter a Muslim Jew they jump up and down and yell whoopee at which time the Muslim must find a burning building to set off his lighter. This has all been well documented in the Monterey Healed and the Santa Cruz Sentinel.

Also Alex Jones over looks an important fact about Israelis, It is try that some have been trained by the massoud to be silent during interrogations, it is also true that Israel is a completely different country than the United States and for some unexplained reason,the official language of Israel is Hebrew. Hebrew speakers sometimes do not answer questions put to them in English because they have a completely different word in Hebrew for each and every English word. Although many do agree that Alex Jones is a smuck.

[Killtown]

So to say that these 5 people were Israeli Jews is not necessarily correct.
Did I refer them as "Jews"?

[SRW]

Did I refer them as "Jews"?

Did I say that you said they were Jews?

Do you think they were Jews?

Are you sure they were not Jews?

Is Alex Jones sure they were Jews?

[defaultdotxbe]

Did I refer them as "Jews"?

so there is a possibility they are israeli muslims?

[Killtown]

so there is a possibility they are israeli muslims?
Sure, I don't care what type of Israeli's they were. I only care that they were spies from a different country and I could care less what country that is.

Say, what if they were spies from Iraq? Would you think differently about their appaling and bizarre behavior?

[SRW]

Sure, I don't care what type of Israeli's they were. I only care that they were spies from a different country and I could care less what country that is.

Say, what if they were spies from Iraq? Would you think differently about their appaling and bizarre behavior?

You contend that they were spy's because they would not answer questions, do you have proof hat they spoke English? And why was an interpreter not brought in?

[911insideJob]

i can cite dozens of instances of arabs celebrating the destruction of the towers both on 9/11

no you couldn't

[Pardalis]

no you couldn't

Are you 5 years old?

[Killtown]

1) You contend that they were spy's because they would not answer questions,

2)do you have proof hat they spoke English?

1) I do???

2) "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem."

Or did the cops speak Hebrew?

Btw, weird quote he said, huh? Why did he bring up the Pals?

[Gravy]

no you couldn't
http://kjbbn.net/9-11%20and%20the%20arab%20palestinian%20reaction%20t o%20it.htm
http://www.gamla.org.il/english/feature/cel.htm
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/terror/response/1044512.html
http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_9_11_02fd.html

[Obviousman]

Killtown,

I have a friend who was working on contract with the Royal Saudi Air Force on 9/11.

He told how many of the Saudis were jumping for joy on the news of the WTC attacks, celebrating wildly and openly.

Does that make Saudi Arabia complicit in the 9/11 attacks?

[Johnny Pixels]

I may well be stupid, but even if you found a bus load of Mossad agents and a trailer of explosives, then how does that tie in with the fact that the WTC wasn't brought down with explosives?

If the explosives are in the van, they're not in the towers.

If they're spies, they'd realise that there's going to be some kind of search for the attackers after 9/11, so why'd they stay in New York?

Why frame Al Qaeda for an attack on the US? Al Qaeda isn't operating against Israel. If they were trying to frame palestine they did a crap job. America already supports Israel, and Israel has more than enough incidents of suicide bombers, so why does it need more leverage in the West?

9/11 resulted in invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, which have not helped Israel's position in the Middle East. So why would Mossad's agents stir up something that doesn't benefit them?

Why would Mossad use agents who only had student visas? Why not someone who could be back inside the Israeli embassy and away on the first diplomatic flight after the ground stop was lifted, and out of sight of any American investigation?

I thought this was a Bush and Co inside job, but now there are Mossad agents working independently on it? If they're not independent, then why use Israeli native Mossad agents, with poor cover, instead of American agents who would blend in and not be subject to the inevitable crackdown on Middle Eastern persons?

How do Mossad agents posses the ability to create a surprise attack on US soil, but completely fail to eliminate terrorist leaders in an adjacent country?

[MikeW]

Re: the "dancing Israelis", I remember reading a couple of years ago that 4 of the 5 launched a lawsuit against the US Government, complaining that they were mistreated while in custody. Don't know what became of that, but it still seems odd behaviour if they were really Mossad agents who were somehow involved in the attacks: you might expect they'd want to slink away and never be heard of again, not court more media attention.

[Killtown]

Killtown,

I have a friend who was working on contract with the Royal Saudi Air Force on 9/11.

He told how many of the Saudis were jumping for joy on the news of the WTC attacks, celebrating wildly and openly.

Does that make Saudi Arabia complicit in the 9/11 attacks?
Where they doing this while filming the burning WTC and flicking a cigarette lighter in a celebatory gesture? And did they have bomb residue in their van?

[Killtown]

I thought this was a Bush and Co inside job, but now there are Mossad agents working independently on it?
Mossad is part of the company and "inside job" is just a quick easy referrence to let everybody know quickly what we think about 9/11.

[Bandersnatch]

Where they doing this while filming the burning WTC and flicking a cigarette lighter in a celebatory gesture? And did they have bomb residue in their van?

Wait, I thought they had a tonne of explosives in their van, what with the links you gave.

PS. Have you seen the lighter picture?

[Cuddles]

Where they doing this while filming the burning WTC and flicking a cigarette lighter in a celebatory gesture? And did they have bomb residue in their van?

They were doing this while watching the films of the burning WTC and some were flicking lighters in a celebratory gesture. Did you actually watch the news at any point in the months after 9/11?

[Killtown]

Wait, I thought they had a tonne of explosives in their van, what with the links you gave.

PS. Have you seen the lighter picture?
What part of RESIDUE did you not understand?

No, have you?

[Matthew Best]

I don't get it. What difference does it make if they had explosives, or explosive residue, in their van?

The World Trade Center wasn't brought down with explosives so I don't understand the relevance.

[Bandersnatch]

What part of RESIDUE did you not understand?

Sorry, I must have gotten that idea from your blog:
Three arrested with van full of explosives
4:27:11 AM

"Reports from New York are saying three people have been arrested with a van of explosives.
The van was stopped along the New Jersey turn-pike near the George Washington Bridge.
It was not clear why police stopped the van but when they did they found it was laden down with tonnes of explosives." - TCM Breaking News


08:45) Car bomb found on George Washington Bridge

"American security services overnight stopped a car bomb on the George Washington Bridge connecting New York and New Jersey.
The van, packed with explosives, was stopped on an approach ramp to the bridge.
Authorities suspect the terrorists intended to blow up the main crossing between New Jersey and New York, Army Radio reported." - Jerusalem Post (Cached)


So it was just residue?

No, have you?

No. How can you be so sure it exists?

[Bandersnatch]

The World Trade Center wasn't brought down with explosives so I don't understand the relevance.

Oh, but they were.

[Killtown]

I don't get it. What difference does it make if they had explosives, or explosive residue, in their van?

The World Trade Center wasn't brought down with explosives so I don't understand the relevance.
Well we think it was brought down with explosives, so you got a foreign country's spies at the scene celebrating the attack and were found to have explosive residue in their van.

yeah, "no" suspicion there!

[Killtown]

1) So it was just residue?

2) No. How can you be so sure it exists?
1) You be the judge: "Sources also said that bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives, although officers were unable to find anything."

2) What, you saying the media made this part of the story up?


And here is a good line:

"However, sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot.
"There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2005/11/dancing-israelis-on-911.html

[chipmunk stew]

Well we think it was brought down with explosives, so you got a foreign country's spies at the scene celebrating the attack and were found to have explosive residue in their van.

yeah, "no" suspicion there!
The event is only suspicious after you conclude that WTC was brought down with explosives.
Therefore, you can't use the event as evidence that WTC was brought down with explosives.
Doing so has a name: circular reasoning.

[Matthew Best]

Well we think it was brought down with explosives

Er, no we don't.

[twinstead]

sorry, mistaken post

[Bandersnatch]

1) You be the judge: "Sources also said that bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives, although officers were unable to find anything."

2) What, you saying the media made this part of the story up?

Well, it would appear that they got the van full of explosives part incorrect. You have two conflicting reports on your site, apparently.

[Bandersnatch]

sorry, mistaken post

's alright. If I did, they'd assassinate me.

[chipmunk stew]

1) You be the judge: "Sources also said that bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives, although officers were unable to find anything."
This is convincing to you? A second-hand account of a dog's reactions? Without any corroboration of the presence of explosives?

[sleahead]

You're still ducking my question, Killtown. If these are highly trained Mossad agents, please explain what part of the "conspiracy" required them to be filming outside, dancing and celebrating in plain view and then going for a ride in a van with suspicious stuff inside.

[Killtown]

Well, it would appear that they got the van full of explosives part incorrect. You have two conflicting reports on your site, apparently.
The other report was about another white van. It was like a whole ring of mossad agents in white vans.

[Bandersnatch]

The other report was about another white van. It was like a whole ring of mossad agents in white vans.

Why did you put it right dead centre in with the Israeli spys articles?

[Killtown]

You're still ducking my question, Killtown. If these are highly trained Mossad agents, please explain what part of the "conspiracy" required them to be filming outside, dancing and celebrating in plain view and then going for a ride in a van with suspicious stuff inside.
Who said they were "required" to do this bazarre behavior?

And why did these agents deny they were celebrating, when that was the SOLE reason the lady thought they were suspicious and called the police?

[Killtown]

Why did you put it right dead centre in with the Isreali spys articles?
Why not?

[Bandersnatch]

Why not?

Well, it might give the impression that they're one in the same.

[Cuddles]

The other report was about another white van. It was like a whole ring of mossad agents in white vans.

Well that's just silly. Everyone knows the bad guys always have black vans.

[Pardalis]

Killtown, if you believed this conspiracy to be true, wouldn't you feel a little bit scared for your life, saying all this stuff on the net, and living in Washington D.C. (http://myspace.com/killtown)?

I bet you don't believe a word you are saying, and just want the attention.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

This appears to be the original article referring to "apparent celebratory gesture" http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/arrested_israelis.html However, I am not having any luck finding the pic in question, nor am I finding an actual AP article referrencing this info. Unfortunetely, The Globe and Mail only has online archives back to 01/01/2002.

[Belz...]

Well we think it was brought down with explosives, so you got a foreign country's spies at the scene celebrating the attack and were found to have explosive residue in their van.

yeah, "no" suspicion there!

Why in the blue HELL would spies celebrate in public this way ??

[sleahead]

Who said they were "required" to do this bazarre behavior?

And why did these agents deny they were celebrating, when that was the SOLE reason the lady thought they were suspicious and called the police?

If these are highly trained agents, it is logical to conclude that what they were doing is what they were instructed to do. Please explain why.

Would you expect anyone at all to admit to the police that they behaved that badly on that day?

[Killtown]

Why in the blue HELL would spies celebrate in public this way ??
Celebrating a job well done? These spies were on in their early-mid 20's. Immaturity have something to do with it?

Remember, it was chance that only ONE person reported seeing them act strangely.

[Killtown]

1) If these are highly trained agents, it is logical to conclude that what they were doing is what they were instructed to do. Please explain why.

2) Would you expect anyone at all to admit to the police that they behaved that badly on that day?
1) I don't believe they were instructed to celebrate after completing their mission. Nor do I believe there were ever told NOT to celebrate afterward.

2) No, but it's proof they LIED like good spies do.

[Bandersnatch]

Celebrating a job well done? These spies were on in their early-mid 20's. Immaturity have something to do with it?

Remember, it was chance that only ONE person reported seeing them act strangely.

Wow, such good planning. Send immature 20 year olds on a mission which could cause war.

[sleahead]

Celebrating a job well done? These spies were on in their early-mid 20's. Immaturity have something to do with it?

Remember, it was chance that only ONE person reported seeing them act strangely.

So you think think Mossad were part of the "conspiracy" and sent immature agents to do a job as big as this? That's laughable. Can't you do any better than that?

[Killtown]

So you think think Mossad were part of the "conspiracy" and sent immature agents to do a job as big as this? That's laughable. Can't you do any better than that?
So why were these spies celebrating then?

[sleahead]

Nor do I believe there were ever told NOT to celebrate afterward.

The above is also laughable.

[Pardalis]

So why were these spies celebrating then?

You have to prove they were spies in the first place.

[sleahead]

So why were these spies celebrating then?

Spies or otherwise, that's a question to ask them. But their behaviour indicates to me they had nothing to do with 9/11. I they were involved, do you not think their instructions would be along the lines of "go to a safe house and lie low?" Or is that too professional for highly trained agents working on the biggest job they are ever likely to be involved in?

[kookbreaker]

So tell me Killtown, do you believe a bomb exploded on King Street in NYC?

[chipmunk stew]

Spies or otherwise, that's a question to ask them. But their behaviour indicates to me they had nothing to do with 9/11. I they were involved, do you not think their instructions would be along the lines of "go to a safe house and lie low?" Or is that too professional for highly trained agents working on the biggest job they are ever likely to be involved in?
Don't forget: These 9/11 conspiracists are the most supernaturally brilliant/stupendously idiotic cabal in the history of mankind.

[I less than three logic]

This is convincing to you? A second-hand account of a dog's reactions? Without any corroboration of the presence of explosives?
Yeah, dogs never give misleading reactions either. :rolleyes:

When I was sophomore in highschool we had a surprise visit from some drug dogs that searched the lockers. A handful of students, maybe 8 or 10, were called to the office. If I remember right only 2 or 3 were caught with marijuana, and the rest were guilty of having venison jerky!!! :jaw-dropp

Was fairly funny at the time. They made a little segment about it on the school news channel thing. :)

[jon]

Yeah, dogs never give misleading reactions either. :rolleyes:

When I was sophomore in highschool we had a surprise visit from some drug dogs that searched the lockers. A handful of students, maybe 8 or 10, were called to the office. If I remember right only 2 or 3 were caught with marijuana, and the rest were guilty of having venison jerky!!! :jaw-dropp

Was fairly funny at the time. They made a little segment about it on the school news channel thing. :)

Yeah, female dogs on heat nearby can also effect sniffer dogs, and no doubt a range of other things... I mean they're highly trained, but they are dogs :rolleyes: There is a reason that police have to actually find the drugs (or, I guess, explosives) before charging someone, and can't just rely on the behaviour of the dogs.

[milesalpha]

Y'know, I have owned a number of lighters in my time, from lowly bics to the expensive electronic numbers to my faithful Zippo. But, barring holding the bic up at a concert or the Rocky Horror Picture Show, I have never seen anyone flicking their lighter in a "celebratory gesture". Exactly how does one identify such a move?

[chipmunk stew]

Y'know, I have owned a number of lighters in my time, from lowly bics to the expensive electronic numbers to my faithful Zippo. But, barring holding the bic up at a concert or the Rocky Horror Picture Show, I have never seen anyone flicking their lighter in a "celebratory gesture". Exactly how does one identify such a move?
Maybe they were trying to get one of those Leaning Tower of Pisa pictures (where it looks like someone is holding up the tower)--making it look like they were setting the WTC ablaze with their lighter. Callous and immature, perhaps, but hardly celebratory.

[NobbyNobbs]

What other logical explanation can there be for spies to act that way?

Hmm...lemme apply the same logic....


1) I am glad Hitler is dead.
2) I am Jewish.
3) Therefore, I killed Hitler.

Nah.

Airliners are made of silly putty. At struck low speed is squishes and gives. Struck at highspeed it shatters. The WTCs were brought down because the planes hit at above shatter speed. The force of the silly putty explosion is what brought down the towers at freefall speed. ;)


They weren't airplanes. They were blimps. They bounced the blimps off the buildings and then brought the buildings down in a controlled demolition. Then the blimps, cleverly disguised as news helicopters, covered the disaster from the air and made ratings soar on all the Zionist-controlled media outlets.

[Pardalis]

Killtown, can you tell for sure that I am not a Mossad agent myself, trying to triangulate your position right now?

[gtc]

You have to prove they were spies in the first place.

And that they were celebrating. All we have is an anonymous report that some people were seen celebrating.

And if they were so well trained, that they could avoid answering any questions, then why weren't they trained in not drawing attention to themselves.

Yeah, dogs never give misleading reactions either. :rolleyes:

When I was sophomore in highschool we had a surprise visit from some drug dogs that searched the lockers. A handful of students, maybe 8 or 10, were called to the office. If I remember right only 2 or 3 were caught with marijuana, and the rest were guilty of having venison jerky!!! :jaw-dropp

Was fairly funny at the time. They made a little segment about it on the school news channel thing. :)

That happened to me too, I had some kangaroo salami in my luggage at an airport and was searched after a dog barked at my bag. The young police officer suggested that maybe my bag had rubbed up against another bag that had pot in it. Nothing to do with a hungry dog.

[Killtown]

And that they were celebrating. All we have is an anonymous report that some people were seen celebrating.

Um, why do you think the lady called the cops on them?

Say, if this whole "Dancing Israelis" rumor is unfounded, why hasn't your favorite site, 911myths, debunk this rumor yet?

[gtc]

Um, why do you think the lady called the cops on them?

I don't know why. All I know is that some anonymous person thought that she saw people celebrating, but that person has never come forward..

Maybe she was mistaken in what she saw, maybe she saw people celebrating. She hasn't come forward, so we don't have an opportunity to ask her these questions.

I remember reading about an Indian family who were detained after 911. They had caught a flight into NY for the first time and were very excited to see the Statue of Liberty out the window. Their excitement (expressed in a foreign language) and the fact that they called over their friends to look out the window convinced their fellow passengers that they were laughing at the sight of the WTC and generally acting suspicious. It took several hours of questioning before they were released.

I think this story is not seen as evidence that the Indians were involved for two reasons. Firstly, Indians does not fit into the Israelis are responsible narrative.

Secondly, the witnesses to the Indians behaviour came forward and so their stories could be checked out much more clearly. On the other hand, the witness to the 'dancing Israelis' never came forward, so the story could never be checked and the rumours remain.

Say, if this whole "Dancing Israelis" rumor is unfounded, why hasn't your favorite site, 911myths, debunk this rumor yet?

Firstly, I have never visited that site to my knowledge, nor have I ever given the impression that I have. Therefore, your assertion that it is my favourite site is clearly unfounded.

Secondly, as I have never visited the site, I cannot tell you whether the story has been debunked there.

Thirdly, I do not speak for 911myths and so cannot comment on why this story has not been debunked there (if it has not been debunked).

Fourthly, lack of debunking on a particular site is not evidence that it is true.

The story may be both not true and not be debunked on 911myths.

For instance,
That site may not be aware of this story.
That site may consider the story to be not important enough to debunk.
That site may not have enough evidence to debunk the story, but not willing to do a half assed job of debunking the story.
That site might consider the story to have been debunked elsewhere.

I think you need to read up on critical thinking.

You have found a fact (story not debunked on website) and decided it is consistent with your theory (dancing israelis celebrate 911).

That is not a problem.

What you have failed to do is consider that your fact is consistent with a number of alternative theories.

Critical thinking says to consider a range of alternative theories and then to select the simplest or most plausible theory that is consistent with your known fact (and any other facts you have before you).

[Killtown]

I don't know why. All I know is that some anonymous person thought that she saw people celebrating, but that person has never come forward..

Maybe she was mistaken in what she saw, maybe she saw people celebrating. She hasn't come forward, so we don't have an opportunity to ask her these questions.
So she says she saw them acting "happy" and police find one on their photos had one of them flicking a lighter up at the burning WTC's in a celebatory gesture. Hmmm. No, that doesn't seem consistent at all. :rolleyes:

[defaultdotxbe]

So she says she saw them acting "happy" and police find one on their photos had one of them flicking a lighter up at the burning WTC's in a celebatory gesture. Hmmm. No, that doesn't seem consistent at all. :rolleyes:

damn that first amendment, making being happy and taking pictures a crime and all.....

[gtc]

So she says she saw them acting "happy" and police find one on their photos had one of them flicking a lighter up at the burning WTC's in a celebatory gesture. Hmmm. No, that doesn't seem consistent at all. :rolleyes:

Have you read the rest of my post, I think it was quite good.

I do stand corrected on one point. I had forgotten that, in addition to a phone call from an anonymous lady, we also have a newspaper report about a photo no one has ever seen. I would like to see that photo as I would love to know how someone can flick a lighter in a celebatory gesture.

That said, do you see how Dancing Israelis is consistent with your theory of Israeli involvement but not evidence for it? This is because it is also consistent with any number of non-Israeli theories and because it ignores all the other evidence pointing to Al Qaeda?

[Killtown]

1) I would love to know how someone can flick a lighter in a celebatory gesture.

2) That said, do you see how Dancing Israelis is consistent with your theory of Israeli involvement but not evidence for it? This is because it is also consistent with any number of non-Israeli theories and because it ignores all the other evidence pointing to Al Qaeda?
1) You have never been to a concert???

2) You are right. Say, what hard evidence does the FBI have on OBL again?

[gtc]

1) You have never been to a concert???

I have and they usually light up during the slow numbers, holding aloft a lighter is also not the same as flicking one.

2) You are right. Say, what hard evidence does the FBI have on OBL again? Well, if you don't think there is enough evidence for OBL's involvement I could reword my last point as:

This is because it is also consistent with any number of non-Israeli theories and because it ignores all the other evidence pointing to a group of Islamic terrorists?

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

1) You have never been to a concert???

2) You are right. Say, what hard evidence does the FBI have on OBL again?
OK Killtown, answer this in all seriousness.

Let's look at two explanations for the 'Dancing Israelis':

1) The 5 young Israelis were spies sent to help out the American government destroy the WTC buildings. After they had carried out their mission, they photographed themselves in celebration flicking lighters.
2) The 5 young Israelis were being jerks laughing about the destruction of the WTC buildings, but had nothing to do with it.

Honestly, out of these two options, do you choose number 1? If so, why?? Isn't the second option the most believable?

Believe what you want about how the WTC buildings came down, but really, do you consider this to be a smoking gun??

[fuelair]

OK Killtown, answer this in all seriousness.

Let's look at two explanations for the 'Dancing Israelis':

1) The 5 young Israelis were spies sent to help out the American government destroy the WTC buildings. After they had carried out their mission, they photographed themselves in celebration flicking lighters.
2) The 5 young Israelis were being jerks laughing about the destruction of the WTC buildings, but had nothing to do with it.

Honestly, out of these two options, do you choose number 1? If so, why?? Isn't the second option the most believable?

Believe what you want about how the WTC buildings came down, but really, do you consider this to be a smoking gun??


"Killtown....seriousness". Surely you jest (and someone is looking for Killtown on another thread - something to do with despicable or some such. If you see him, please let him know. Thanks)

Edited: fixed a misquote(spelling).

[Azure]

They were Israeli spies.

I'm still waiting for proof... :rolleyes:

[Killtown]

I'm still waiting for proof... :rolleyes:
What is your minimum amount of acceptable proof?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

What is your minimum amount of acceptable proof?

Something a little more substantial than "They're guilty cuz they're j00000sss!!!"

[defaultdotxbe]

What is your minimum amount of acceptable proof?

something better than "i read a newspaper article that said the fbi may have said they think they might be spies"

[Killtown]

something better than "i read a newspaper article that said the fbi may have said they think they might be spies"
An example?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

An example?

Questions != evidence.

Put up or shut up.

[defaultdotxbe]

An example?

lets quit playing coy cat and mous egames and you tell us what evidence you have

[Killtown]

lets quit playing coy cat and mous egames and you tell us what evidence you have
Than tell me what kind of evidence will satisfy you, not what evidence won't satisfy you.

[defaultdotxbe]

Than tell me what kind of evidence will satisfy you, not what evidence won't satisfy you.

when presenting a case in court does the lawyer ask th ejury what they want to see, or does he show them everythign he has?

[Gravy]

Killtown, present the evidence that YOU believe indicates that they were involved, or that they were spies. Not conjecture, evidence. Do you have any?

[Killtown]

when presenting a case in court does the lawyer ask th ejury what they want to see, or does he show them everythign he has?
Is JREF a legal jury?

[Killtown]

Killtown, present the evidence that YOU believe indicates that they were involved, or that they were spies. Not conjecture, evidence. Do you have any?
Apparently none that will satisfy you.

[Yoink]

Apparently none that will satisfy you.

No, you apparently have none at all.

You are the one who claims to want to "get the truth out." Showing evidence for your claims would help you achieve that end. I can't imagine any reason for you not to show what evidence you have that wouldn't also prevent you from making the claim in the first place (e.g., "Mossad will hunt me down and kill me: I know too much" etc.).

Ergo you have no evidence at all beyond the completely unhelpful Globe and Mail article that you link to in your sig. QED.

[Gravy]

Apparently none that will satisfy you.
You claim the "dancing Israelis" are a "smoking gun." That term means you have conclusive evidence of their guilt.

Please present it, or withdraw the claim.

[MortFurd]

Apparently none that will satisfy you.
Clearly not. All it would take is a good reference to a witness who actually saw your "dancing Israelis." If you had one, I expect you'd have posted it.

[Regnad Kcin]

This "dancing Israelis" idea is perplexing. What is it supposed to indicate?

We know that some Americans were quite glad when Abraham Lincoln was murdered. Also John Kennedy. And Martin Luther King. Some Americans cheered the destruction of Oklahoma City. And the LA riots, following the Rodney King verdict. And on and on.

Since shared nationality doesn't prevent sporatic delight in the pain and suffering of others, why the surprise that people from other cultures can also act inhumanely?

[Killtown]

Clearly not. All it would take is a good reference to a witness who actually saw your "dancing Israelis." If you had one, I expect you'd have posted it.
How about in multiple MSM reports?

[Killtown]

This "dancing Israelis" idea is perplexing. What is it supposed to indicate?

Since shared nationality doesn't prevent sporatic delight in the pain and suffering of others, why the surprise that people from other cultures can also act inhumanely?

"The driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers, "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem."

[Gravy]

I wouldn't be surprised if the men were working for Israeli intelligence. But the FBI and CIA apparently weren't able to prove that, so I'm just wondering what information Killtown has that the U.S. intelligence services either don't have or are concealing.

Again, a smoking gun means conclusive proof. I wasn't able to find a single smoking gun in Killtown's list of over 200, and many of those items are flat wrong.

[MortFurd]

How about in multiple MSM reports?
How about you post them since you know where they are?

[MortFurd]

"The driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers, "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem."

And what is that supposed to prove? That you know how to include quotes of text from other sources? I've looked at the blog behind your sig link. I notice a lot of text copied verbatim from other sites and damned few links to where the text came from.

[Regnad Kcin]

"The driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers, "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem."Which no more clears anything up for me than if you had instead posted Hamlet's first soliloquy.

[Killtown]

And what is that supposed to prove? That you know how to include quotes of text from other sources? I've looked at the blog behind your sig link. I notice a lot of text copied verbatim from other sites and damned few links to where the text came from.
Does Sivan sound like someone who hates the US and would laugh if we got attacked when "his problems" are our "problems"?

[Gravy]

How about in multiple MSM reports?
How about them? What conclusive evidence do they present?

For example, you gave three links to MSM sources in your smoking gun list, two of which work. One, the Bergen Record, is a report from Sept. 12, 2001, when little was known.

The other, from ABC News, does not present any proof that the men were spies, but does present this conclusion:

Sources also said that even if the men were spies, there is no evidence to conclude they had advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11," [former CIA counterterrorism chief] Cannistraro noted.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021003225412/http:/abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html

Again, Killtown, where is your conclusive evidence that

1) These men were spies, or

2) That they had any involvement in the attacks

If you do not have conclusive evidence, will you be withdrawing your claim that this is a "smoking gun?"

[Killtown]

I claim it's a "smoking gun," not a smoking gun.

[defaultdotxbe]

I claim it's a "smoking gun," not a smoking gun.

can i claim you are an "idiot?"

Stop the name-calling now, or this thread will find itself moved to Abandon All Hope.

[Killtown]

can i claim you are an "idiot?"

Don't bother asking me anymore questions on this forum or elsewhere.

[jon]

I claim it's a "smoking gun," not a smoking gun.

Could you clarify the difference between a "smoking gun" and a smoking gun? And are all the so-called smoking guns you present actually "smoking guns"?

Thanks.

[Yoink]

While we wait (and wait, and wait) for Killtown to give us his killer evidence, it's interesting to speculate a little about what actually happened in this story. If you Google around on the names of the people involved you get endless CT sites who all link to each other as "references" for their (virtually identical) versions of the story. It seems to have surfaced in the reality-based media only two or three times (Killtown's countless MSM reports are just different outlets picking up on the same few wire stories). Here's a link (commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm) to one of the fuller accounts.

The irony in the story is that the original police response to these guys was clearly part of the general anti-Arab hysteria that surfaced in the wake of 9/11. People saw swarthy looking guys responding "inappropriately" to the tragedy and called them in. It seems that there was probably more than one white van with swarthy passengers that got stopped by police that day, so it's not quite clear if the accounts of "celebratory dancing" apply to the Israeli lot or not.

They claim not to have been celebrating, but driving around taking photos of the event. Personally, I can imagine that if I were a young man out with a group of other young men driving around New Jersey looking for good positions from which to get photos of this extraordinary event, that I might behave in an inappropriately "hyper" manner. We all know that spectacular wrecks and disasters bring with them a kind of exhileration (who thinks that car racing's audience would go up if you could guarantee that accidents were impossible? Why do massive crowds turn out to watch buildings get demolished? Things getting smashed is fun--and you can't be thinking profound thoughts about the victims of the disaster all the time--especially if you're in your 20s).

The lighter thing--absent an actual copy of the photo--seems utterly impossible to "read." Sure--they could have been holding it up in a kind of "rock on, dude" way. Or a hand with a lighter in it might just have intruded accidentally into the frame. In the atmosphere of paranoid suspicion that reigned in the days after 9/11, I'm sure the FBI examining the photos would have thought "hmmm, suspicious" in either case. Certainly it's the kind of vivid detail a journalist loves to get down into his/her notebook. But absent the photo, and absent a witness to the photo being taken, it's really no big deal. The only thing it would prove, in any case, would be that you have to scratch "inappropriate high spirits" and replace it with "flagrant asshattery."

The one big smoking gun thing that the CTists quote on every site is the Israeli's comment about being there "to document the event." This sounds terribly ominous ("Dood, they must have had advance knowledge if they were in the USA to document the event") until you read the sentence in context. Then you realize that they were saying "we were out photographing to document the event; not because we were celebrating" (that's a paraphrase, by the way, not an exact quotation). This is the "pull it" of this particular case.

Oh, Killtown, here's an example of evidence I'd find convincing: an authentic Mossad training manual that says "after you have successfully pulled of the greatest undercover agent provacateur terrorist act in the history of the world, one that involves suborning the government of the United States to engage in a conspiracy to murder thousands of their own citizens, the one thing you must do is go out into the streets and take photos of yourselves celebrating your success: how else will bored teenagers ever have a chance to uncover your fiendish plan?"

[Killtown]

Could you clarify the difference between a "smoking gun" and a smoking gun? And are all the so-called smoking guns you present actually "smoking guns"?

Thanks.
You have 10 assumed coincidences surrounding an event. You find later they weren't coincidences, but actually evidence in a crime. Get the picture now?

[defaultdotxbe]

Don't bother asking me anymore questions on this forum or elsewhere.

well if quotes around soemthing can change the defintion of smoking gun why not that too?

if a "smoking gun" is not a smoking gun then "idiot" is not an idiot, correct?

[Yoink]

You have 10 assumed coincidences surrounding an event. You find later they weren't coincidences, but actually evidence in a crime. Get the picture now?

So for you a "smoking gun" (as opposed to a smoking gun) is circumstantial evidence? You are saying that putting quotation marks around a phrase makes it mean the opposite of what it is usually taken to mean?

Does that mean that you are confessing that you have no actual evidence that 9/11 was in any sense a Government conspiracy? I.e., the only "smoking guns" you have are circumstantial (e.g., the government had the power to do this thing, was "in the right place at the right time" etc.) but you haven't a single, solitary shred of actual evidence? Wow--I can see why you keep ducking my question in the Flight 93 thread about nominating your "most telling" piece of evidence!