Can Russia and USA become friends

[mrflame]

To my mind this thread become more and more important from day to day. We are not enemies for about twenty yers already. And that is not bad.:)

But one can't say we are freinds, can him?

I have never been to USA and never spoke to USA citizen as well. And I'm eager to know what do you think about the point and to understand your pisition(s)
:confused:

[Apollyon]

US and Russia could be great friends if politics didn't get in the way. The whole debacle over Iraq definitely put a dent in our friendship. Russia tried to play the humanitarian card but with their treatment of the Chechnyan's, involvement with Saddam (providing him military intel prior to the US invasion) and the Oil for Food scandal, it seemed more like the Russian politicians were trying to stab the US in the back.

Any Russians I've ever known, however, have been great people. Hopefully in the future our political relations will change for the better.

[Hutch]

First of all, welcome Mr. flame to the Forums. For others who haven't read the welcome thread lately, Mr. flame is Russian so no complaining about his English unless you write better in Cyrillic (sic).

As to your question, there is the old saying "nations do not have permanent friends, just permanent interests". In general, Russia and the US have no border disputes, no history of wars between them (forget that little thing in 1919 and that the Cold War remained Cold with Americans and Russians not directly confronting each other) so 'friends' is a possibility. I think tourism and trade have both increased over the years.

That said, Russia has a permanent interest in developing it's massive resources, defending it's long border with a number of hostile or unfriendly states, and being seen as an important player on the world stage, something that goes back to Peter the Great. While the US has more of an interest in securing resources, limiting influence of other states when they are not in symphathy to the US viewpoint, and in fostering democracy, especially in nations that border Russia. With Iran, N. Korea and China involved deeply in US thought and bordering Russia, it is inevitable that there will be bumps and knocks in the relationship.

I do not see a return to the Cold War anytime soon. It will be interesting to see in if the energy-economic ties that will bind Europe and Russia tightly together in the next few decades will lead to closer political and cultural ties and the long dicotomy between leaning West(to Europe) and East (Slavic and Asia) may yet be resolved by the Russian people.

Interesting times. Welcome again

[Ryokan]

Aren't Russia and USA friends already? I mean, sure, there are some disagreements, but overall I'd say they were friends.

I remember when I was a soldier in Bosnia, I watched a joint American/Russian patrol. It was a great sight.

[FreeChile]

Disagreements like the part where Bush would like Russia to become more democratic like Iraq.

[Grammatron]

Maybe after Putin.

[senorpogo]

Didn't Russia recently sell Venezuela something like $3 billion worth of weapons despite the protests of the USA?

[Ryokan]

senorpogo, is that Harcourt Fenton Mudd?

[senorpogo]

senorpogo, is that Harcourt Fenton Mudd?

Yes. (http://www.echosphere.net/star_trek_insp/insp_mudd.jpg)

[Ryokan]

Yes. (http://www.echosphere.net/star_trek_insp/insp_mudd.jpg)

Yay, I'm a geek!

[FreeChile]

Didn't Russia recently sell Venezuela something like $3 billion worth of weapons despite the protests of the USA?
Capitalists don't like Communists enjoying the fruits of their labor!

[FreeChile]

Another point of disagreement. Russia recently published their list of terrorist organizations. Guess who it does not include in it? And guess who it includes?

[Grammatron]

Another point of disagreement. Russia recently published their list of terrorist organizations. Guess who it does not include in it? And guess who it includes?

I give up, who?

[FreeChile]

I give up, who?
The list does not include Hamas nor Hezbollah. In fact, after Hamas won the Parliamentary elections, Russia invited Hamas for talks.

[FreeChile]

What the hell, here's the whole list.

1. “The highest military Majlisul Shura of the united forces of the mujahedeen of the Caucasus”
2. “The Congress of the Peoples of Ichkeria and Daghestan”
3. “Al-Qaeda” 2
4. “Asbat al-Ansar”
5. “The holy war” (“Al-Jihad” or the “Egyptian Islamic Jihad”)
6. “The Islamic group” (“Al -Jamaa al -Islami”)
7. “The Muslim Brotherhood” (“Al-Ikhvan al-Muslimun”)
8. “The party of Islamic liberation” (“Hizb ut-Tahrir al-Islami”)
9. “Lashkar-e-Toiba” (LeT) “
10. “The Islamic group” (Jamaat-e-Islami)
11. “The Taleban movement”.
12. “The Islamic Party of Turkestan” (former “Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan”)
13. “The Society of Social Reforms” (“Jamiat al-Islah al-Ijtimai”)
14. “The Society of the Revival of Islamic Heritage” (“Jamiat Ihya at-Turaz al-Islami”)
15. “The house of the two holy” (“Al-Haramein”)
16. “Junj ash-Sham” (Army of the Great Syria)
17. “The Islamic Jihad — jamaat of the mujahedeen”

[mrflame]

First of all, welcome Mr. flame to the Forums. For others who haven't read the welcome thread lately, Mr. flame is Russian so no complaining about his English unless you write better in Cyrillic (sic).


Nice to meet you!

To tell the truth I would like to improve my English so I'll be grateful to each of you if you'll corect my mistakes

2everyone:


Here is the fragment of the interview between “Russkaya gazeta” (Russian magazine, hereinafter as RG) and Yury Sapunov (the chief of anti-terrorist headquarter of Federal Security Service of Russia, hereinafter as Sapunov)


RG: Why “The List 17” doesn’t includes such organizations as Hamas and Hezbolla, which are considered as terrorist in the whole world?

Sapunov: At first, not the whole world consider then to be terrorist, at second, “The List 17” is a national list of terrorist organizations. That means, it includes those organizations, which pose maximum hazard to our state. Yes, this two organizations suits to the third criteria (The list have three criterias to inscribe an organization in it – my note), because they inserted in the lists of many states. But they don’t suit to two first criterias.

For example, we know that leaders of Caucasus terrorists (Basaev and Hattab) tried to persuade the leaders of Hamas and Hezbolla to participate in the operations in Chechnya with the mutual advantage. They offered a war-help and participation in the war against Israel in winter when carry war in Chechnya is difficult in exchange for this Hamas and Hezbolla would send their soldjers to Chechnya in summer. But neither Hezbolla nor Hamas didn’t agree with this proposal. None of terrorist act, none of terrorists which try to take a terrorist act in Russia consist in those organizations.

RG: Don’t you afraid of the fact that after this words of your’s there will be forces hostile to Hamas or Hezbolla which will try to take a terrorist act in Russia pretending to be this organizations?

Sapunov I hope, you don’t think that we are that naive and unable to find true guilties. We’ve got the forces and everything necessary to, maybe not right away, but find them despite of any masking. At least, even if there is no strong proofs in Court, we always have on-line information.

Moreover, there is no need to take a terrorist act pretending to be Hamas or Hezbolla. We know, that this organizations use terrorist methods, and take it into account. What is more, we admit international lists ot terrorist organizations, for example, UN lists or such a top-level states as USA and European Council. We take it into consideration, when communicate to different special forces as partners.

[mrflame]

Maybe after Putin.

so do you mean that Putin is unfriendly?

[mrflame]

Didn't Russia recently sell Venezuela something like $3 billion worth of weapons despite the protests of the USA?


There were also protests from Russia when your planes bombed Cosovo, weren't them?

But all of this are only ordinary disagreements and nothing more.

[The Atheist]

For my 2 cents worth as an independent observer, the recent meeting between Bush and Putin seemed to show more differences than similarities between the two.

Putin also got in a couple of great one liners about Iraq which Bush didn't enjoy - these two clearly don't like each other much.

I think that's where the "after Putin" comment comes from.

[mrflame]

Didn't Russia recently sell Venezuela something like $3 billion worth of weapons despite the protests of the USA?


Our state sells only hi-end weapon, but terrorists use simple one (like AK) which were made in other countries

[mrflame]

Putin also got in a couple of great one liners about Iraq which Bush didn't enjoy - these two clearly don't like each other much.



To my mind the reasons of our disagreements about Iraq are obvious you want to purchase oil cheaper and we want to sell it more expensive. That's econimics

[a_unique_person]

Maybe after Putin.

And Bush.

[Tony]

I'd also like to welcome mrflame.

I certainly think Russia and the US could be friends. I may dislike certain politicians or government policies in Russia, but apart from their most ardent supporters, that dislike wouldn't extend to the population. Russia is an interesting country with a unique history, I hope to one day grace her with my presence. :)

[mrflame]

I hope to one day grace her with my presence. :)

Thank you, Tony (We're namesakes :-) )

And I invite everyone in Russia. You'll like it.

I work on SAB Miller plc. (Brewery) among a few foreigners from all over the world (Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands) and my boss is Welsh. So they really enjoy being here.

P.S. And if you are a guest of Russia, try not to limit you by visiting Moscow because the true Russia beging in about 150 km after our beautiful and beloved capital (which extremely differs from the whole country)

[Grammatron]

so do you mean that Putin is unfriendly?

No, he has repressive policies reminiscent of USSR.

[Ryokan]

I also welcome Mr.Flame. Howdy, neighbor! :)

[pipelineaudio]

To my mind the reasons of our disagreements about Iraq are obvious you want to purchase oil cheaper and we want to sell it more expensive. That's econimics

If we do never get along, itll be from posts like this and others mr flame has made.

A better attempt to understand the issues and americans in general would go a very long way towards friendship

I think conversely, mrflame will find that americans are willing to give russians the benefit of the doubt, whereas it seems no such offer is forthcoming from the other side

[Ziggurat]

RG: Don’t you afraid of the fact that after this words of your’s there will be forces hostile to Hamas or Hezbolla which will try to take a terrorist act in Russia pretending to be this organizations?


I'm very disturbed by this question. There are really only two candidate "forces" which are seriously hostie to both Hamas and Hezballah: Israel and the US. This question is basically suggesting that either country might be willing to commit a terrorist attack against Russia. I find that suggestion quite implausible, but also quite disturbing that such a low opinion of both Israel and the US is pervasive enough that it could be made by a mainstream reporter. And it's not comforting that the Russian official did not dismiss the possibility of such an attack, but merely stated that they wouldn't be deceived by it. Russia not only distrusts us (an our ally) deeply, but also does not understand us. If Russia DID understand us, they would understand that this isn't even the way we attack our enemies. Distrust plus a lack of understanding are not going to help Russia and the US get along.

[Tony]

Russia not only distrusts us (an our ally) deeply, but also does not understand us.

This administration has yet to show that it is worthy of being trusted.

If Russia DID understand us, they would understand that this isn't even the way we attack our enemies.

And of course, you're speaking from years of experience as a CIA operative.

[geni]

Didn't Russia recently sell Venezuela something like $3 billion worth of weapons despite the protests of the USA?

Spain sold them some kit as well. I doubt that issue is very serious.

[bob_kark]

We can always be friends. Our governments on the other hand... I suspect they can remain friendly as long as they share interests or as long as it is mutually beneficial.

[TimmyBerry]

First of all..
Zdravstvui, zemlyak.

On topic of the thread: Seems doubtful to me that Russia and US will ever be anything more than tolerant of eachother. (Wasn't Russia criticized at some point for not being quite open to multinational corporations/associating with icky terrorists/being more state-regulated than US would've liked?)
Having been to both countries for extended periods of time, I'll say that there are quite a few negative stereotypes on both sides within general population. (School systems aren't doing much to get the public to understand other countries, either.. At least in the US.) (And don't get me started about the complete omission of Russia in world's art history in college.)
Educating the public about culture and history of the said countries would be a good step towards better relations between the two worlds.

[peptoabysmal]

To my mind the reasons of our disagreements about Iraq are obvious you want to purchase oil cheaper and we want to sell it more expensive. That's econimics
I think it's a little bit more complex than just oil, but I see where a lot of people get this idea from. In my opinion, the war is more rooted in the US support for Israel than it is anything else. We certainly aren't getting any benefits on cheap oil now, so if that was the plan, it wasn't a good one.

I also think that Americans and Russians could get along quite well just as people on a one to one basis, but our governments are at two ends of the spectrum.

I would like to know your opinion on these two articles:
Pentagon Report: Russian Pre-War Intelligence Given to Saddam (http://www.atsnn.com/article/200424)

Huysman/Iraq and Al Qaeda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Huysman/Iraq_and_Al_Qaeda)

That is, if your repressive government doesn't block access to the sites ;-)

I live in an area where quite a few Russians have moved to. I have a few Russian (second generation) friends as well. I still feel like all I know about Russians is that they go crazy for garage sales. (garage sales are where people just open up their garage and sell everything they don't want any more, usually cheap)

Putin is tough and nationalistic and so is Bush. Perhaps it is what we need right now. At least our countries both have a fear of the consequences if we don't get along which drives us to try to get along.

[mrflame]

There are really only two candidate "forces" which are seriously hostie to both Hamas and Hezballah: Israel and the US.

A force can be hostile to H&H for several reasons:

1) It is eager to eliminate them (according to this reason are almost right)

2) It wants H&H to share their (this misterious forces) enemies (so Chechnya's terrorists can be such candidates)

And the RG correspondent meant relly the 2nd reason (reread the interview)

P.S.: Without a doubt that can be more reasons

[mrflame]

I would like to know your opinion on these two articles:
Pentagon Report: Russian Pre-War Intelligence Given to Saddam (http://www.atsnn.com/article/200424)

Huysman/Iraq and Al Qaeda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Huysman/Iraq_and_Al_Qaeda)


So my opinion is the following:

I do beleive that Russia couldn't do any help to Al Qaeda. We have even more buildings crashed becase of their bombs, and Russia wouldn't do it even if it were not. (The sence in publishing such a canard is obvious) And if this article is the truth it would make a public resonance
As for relationships between Iraq and Al Qaeda I don't know were is truth but I don't see any evidences (so as Europe). Saying that they have a nuke bomb didn't help so your administration tryes to persuade the European Council whith other wrong facts.


That is, if your repressive government doesn't block access to the sites ;-)


Thats really funny, lol

[mrflame]

I also welcome Mr.Flame. Howdy, neighbor! :)

Privet, sosed!

Were are you from?

[mrflame]

[QUOTE=TimmyBerry;1857363]First of all..
Zdravstvui, zemlyak.

Wasn't Russia criticized at some point for not being quite open to multinational corporations/associating with icky terrorists/being more state-regulated than US would've liked?


Zdorovo! Kak dela?


And I just can't get the point (It seems to me that problem is my English) Would you be so kind to make it a bit more understandable?

[Joe Bloggs]

Am I the only one who thinks that if there is to be a conflict between large nations in the next 50 - 100 years, that the most obvious one will be between China (resource hungry, expanding population) and Russia (resource rich declining population) over Siberia?

[Ziggurat]

2) It wants H&H to share their (this misterious forces) enemies (so Chechnya's terrorists can be such candidates)

And the RG correspondent meant relly the 2nd reason (reread the interview)


Hmm... That wasn't the impression I got, and I don't find the idea of a third party doing that in order to enlist H&H's help very likely, but if you're right, that is less worisome regarding U.S. and Russian relations.

[peptoabysmal]

So my opinion is the following:

I do beleive that Russia couldn't do any help to Al Qaeda. We have even more buildings crashed becase of their bombs, and Russia wouldn't do it even if it were not. (The sence in publishing such a canard is obvious) And if this article is the truth it would make a public resonance
OK, what about Russia providing military intel to Saddam right before the war? What purpose did that serve?

As for relationships between Iraq and Al Qaeda I don't know were is truth but I don't see any evidences (so as Europe). Saying that they have a nuke bomb didn't help so your administration tryes to persuade the European Council whith other wrong facts.
That wasn't the only thing said about Iraq. Why is it the only thing so often quoted?

Thats really funny, lol
Sorry, just poking a little fun.

[Ryokan]

Privet, sosed!

Were are you from?

Norway. It says so under my picture.

[mrflame]

OK, what about Russia providing military intel to Saddam right before the war? What purpose did that serve?



That wasn't the only thing said about Iraq. Why is it the only thing so often quoted?


Sorry, just poking a little fun.[/QUOTE]

I thought in the same way. I've got a sence of humour ;)

[mrflame]

OK, what about Russia providing military intel to Saddam right before the war? What purpose did that serve?

What do you mean? I can't quite undestand you.


That wasn't the only thing said about Iraq. Why is it the only thing so often quoted?

And what are the others?


Sorry, just poking a little fun.

I thought in the same way. I've got the sence of humour ;)