Prosecutors watch Madonna to see if she's "insulting religious beliefs"

[Beerina]

Say what now?!?!? (http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/15/people.madonna.ap/index.html)

Johannes Mocken, a spokesman for prosecutors in Duesseldorf, said Tuesday that a repeat of that scene during Sunday's concert could be construed as insulting religious beliefs.

I suggest she use a "stunt" she's pulled before: Just before the concert starts, demand the police sign a paper that they won't arrest her for anything that goes on in the show. If they decline, she cancels the show, going in front of the crowd to cancel the show, and to say exactly why.

Then the police have to deal with tens of thousands of outraged people -- who are outraged at them. The police know this, and will sign.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Say what now?!?!? (http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/15/people.madonna.ap/index.html)



I suggest she use a "stunt" she's pulled before: Just before the concert starts, demand the police sign a paper that they won't arrest her for anything that goes on in the show. If they decline, she cancels the show, going in front of the crowd to cancel the show, and to say exactly why.

Then the police have to deal with tens of thousands of outraged people -- who are outraged at them. The police know this, and will sign.

Won't work. A contract/agreement signed under duress is unenforceable.

[Jimbo07]

I don't like not being able to mock the religious without being watched by police...

:mad:

[Beerina]

Won't work. A contract/agreement signed under duress is unenforceable.

"Then I hereby cancel the concert. G'bye."

See how that works?

[Number Six]

Who goes to see Madonna in concert? Seriously, I don't know. I think the same thing when I see people screaming after Michael Jackson. They became popular in the 80s. At that time, 15-25 year olds would scream after them and go to their concerts. But now it's 20 years later. That means that either:

1. 35-45 year olds are screaming after Madonna (and that seems unlikely because I can't picture 35-45 year olds screaming after any pop stars...I'd think they'd have aged out of that).

2. 15-25 year olds are screaming after Madonna (and that seems unlikely because I can't picture 15-25 year olds of today finding Madonna hip, partly because she's old compared to them and partly because she's so...80s, and the kids today want what is hip today, not what was hip in the 80s).

So, the question is: Who attends Madonna concerts and who screams in ecstasy at Michael Jackson when he makes a public appearance?

[drkitten]

"Then I hereby cancel the concert. G'bye."

See how that works?


No, I don't. They sign the document. Then they arrest her anyway, silly piece of paper notwithstanding.

What is she doing to do, sue them for breach of contract? It was an unenforceable contract out of the box.

[JamesDillon]

Won't work. A contract/agreement signed under duress is unenforceable.

Yes, but "duress" means fear of bodily injury to oneself or others. It doesn't mean fear that Madonna will cancel a concert. I don't think the contract would be unenforceable on that basis, but I'm not sure that the police have the authority to bind the prosecutor.

[sackett]

Yes, but you’ve got to admire Madonna, a little anyway. She’s an example of the Capable Michigan Woman, a human type I meet pretty often where I live.

Consider: One day this drab young person from Okemos, Mich. decides that she’d like to be famous. So she sets off to New York to do it -- and does it, lacking though she is in any form of creativity, musical ability, stagecraft, flair, physical grace, general knowledge, looks, brains, or good hair.

She’s a famous celebrity, celebated for her fame! And still selling tickets at 40+ plus years of age. I knock her as hard as anybody, but you know what? This is the best I can do.

The caper with the police demonstrates a certain shrewdness, I’ll give her that: she knows how to hire PR people.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

"Then I hereby cancel the concert. G'bye."

See how that works?

No, they sign the agreement, then when she does something illegal during the concert, they arrest her.

[Ladewig]

She’s a famous celebrity, celebated for her fame! And still selling tickets at 40+ plus years of age. I knock her as hard as anybody, but you know what? This is the best I can do.



No. Paris Hilton is a celebrity celebrated for her fame. At the beginning of Madonna's career she displayed a fair amount of talent. Her songs were more original than say those of the Backstreet Boys or Spice Girls. I think it is unfair to describe her as talentless.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Yes, but "duress" means fear of bodily injury to oneself or others.

Not true.

[JamesDillon]

Not true.

Yes, actually, it is true. From Black's Law Dictionary, 8th ed.:
duress: Broadly, a threat of harm made to compel a person to do something against his or her will or judgment; esp., a wrongful threat made by one person to compel a manifestation of seemingt assent by another person to a transaction without real volition.
Emphasis added.

There is a separate doctrine of "economic duress," but that applies only between parties to an existing contract. Unless the municipality is a party to Madonna's concert contract, then it cannot claim economic duress to void an agreement not to arrest her for anything that occurs on stage.

(That said, I still think that such an agreement would be unenforceable, because the police lack authority to speak for the prosecutor, and also perhaps on public policy grounds).

[sackett]

… I think it is unfair to describe her as talentless.

I only saw her once in my life, in a pretty-far-off-broadway production of Speed the Plow. If it had been a high school drama-club presentation, I would have said that she did, well, okay. (Speed the P. is a crummy excuse for a play anyhow, and wot tha hell, everybody’s career has skiddy places.)

Happy Duesseldorf, where the police have nothing better to do than keep an eye on Madonna. (Stupid thought crime laws.)

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Yes, actually, it is true. From Black's Law Dictionary, 8th ed.:

Emphasis added.

There is a separate doctrine of "economic duress," but that applies only between parties to an existing contract. Unless the municipality is a party to Madonna's concert contract, then it cannot claim economic duress to void an agreement not to arrest her for anything that occurs on stage.

(That said, I still think that such an agreement would be unenforceable, because the police lack authority to speak for the prosecutor, and also perhaps on public policy grounds).

Fair enough. Do you have a link? I would like to read further.

[JamesDillon]

Fair enough. Do you have a link? I would like to read further.
I don't think that Black's Law Dictionary is available free online; in any case my quotation was taken from the hard copy. Here's a Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress_%28contract_law%29) to duress in contract law; I didn't read most of it so I can't vouch for its accuracy.

Edit: I just noticed that the Wikipedia article deals with Australian law, rather than American. I guess either one is equally irrelevant to German law, and American and Australian law both derive from the British common law system, so they're similar. However, you can probably google "economic duress" to get better sources of explanation on American law. I should add that I have no idea at all how the system works in Germany.

[Elind]

Say what now?!?!? (http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/15/people.madonna.ap/index.html)



I suggest she use a "stunt" she's pulled before: Just before the concert starts, demand the police sign a paper that they won't arrest her for anything that goes on in the show. If they decline, she cancels the show, going in front of the crowd to cancel the show, and to say exactly why.

Then the police have to deal with tens of thousands of outraged people -- who are outraged at them. The police know this, and will sign.

The police are allowed to make such a decision?

I thought they were only supposed to enforce the law, not interpret it?

[Ladewig]

I would think that given the current state of her career she would want the police to sign an agreement to arrest her while she is onstage.

[KelvinG]

I suggest she use a "stunt" she's pulled before: Just before the concert starts, demand the police sign a paper that they won't arrest her for anything that goes on in the show.


What if she brings someone onstage from the audience and slits their throat?:D

[TjW]

What if she brings someone onstage from the audience and slits their throat?:D

Now, that's entertainment.

[TragicMonkey]

Madonna had plenty of talent. It just wasn't music (or acting, shudder). She was brilliant at marketing herself. Which is why she managed to turn a mediocre voice and some rather stupid songs into a gigantic career, where people with superior musical talent got left behind. Anyone who can roll around on stage in a wedding dress touching her naughty, then write and sell children's books years later, and not have the whole world laugh in her pointy face, is a genius at repackaging herself to sell in any market.

[Beerina]

No, I don't. They sign the document. Then they arrest her anyway, silly piece of paper notwithstanding.

What is she doing to do, sue them for breach of contract? It was an unenforceable contract out of the box.

A citizen should have the right to ask the government at any time, "Is this action I am about to perform legal or illegal?" and get a definitive answer before the fact. That would carry no weight legally?

[DaChew]

Far as I'm concerned the only "talent" she's displayed has been in her nude work in her "book" and the "art" photos she did before being asked to leave University of Michigan.

And Sackett, stop reminding people she's from Michigan. She married some foreign guy, moved to the U.K. and developed a stupid, unrecognizable accent. She's THEIR problem now.

[JamesDillon]

A citizen should have the right to ask the government at any time, "Is this action I am about to perform legal or illegal?" and get a definitive answer before the fact. That would carry no weight legally?
(Speaking again from the perspective of American, not German, law)

Sometimes it is possible to get an opinion as to the legality of a proposed course of action from a legal authority before undertaking something that might be illegal. For example, the Securities and Exchange Commission issues "no-action letters," a process by which a corporation submits a proposal for some business or accounting position it wants to take, and asks the S.E.C. to confirm that it will not bring charges against the corporation under the securities laws for taking that position. Madonna MIGHT be able to pursue such an arrangement with the German authorities, but there are two problems with the initial proposal that she force the police to sign an agreement not to arrest her.

First, as noted above, the police don't have authority to promise not to bring charges against Madonna. Although police are authorized to arrest on sight when they witness laws being violated, the decision to prosecute is ultimately up to the district attorney. Madonna would have to approach whatever equivalent body has the actual authority to decide whether to prosecute her under the German system in order to get a binding decision-- and it might not be possible to do so at all. Many enforcement agencies, including, I think, most local prosecutors, don't issue advisory opinions.

Second, there's a difference between asking for an advisory opinion and conducting oneself in accordance with the response, and demanding immunity from otherwise applicable laws on threat of canceling a public appearance. If Madonna were to ask whether her planned performance would violate any local laws and then conduct herself in accordance with the information thereby obtained, that's perfectly acceptable. A simple grant of immunity under these circumstances, while not quite being legal duress, might well be held by a court to be void as against public policy.

In response to drkitten, though, a properly issued grant of immunity can act as a bar to criminal prosecution, not just as a civil cause of action. But I doubt Madonna could obtain that here.

[EvilSmurf]

(Speed the P. is a crummy excuse for a play anyhow, and wot tha hell, everybody’s career has skiddy places.)

Meh, with the right 3-person ensemble it's a funny and cynical look at the movie business, but I'm a big Mamet fan, so that might skew my vision somewhat.

[sackett]

Laedwig: I’ll take it that you’re being ironic about Majohnny and her, um, music, but I can’t be sure. I don’t hear pop music except in elevators and all-night groceries. People take that stuff so damn SERIOUSLY!

DaChew: Young women who can do absolutely anything are one of Michigan’s greatest resources, take it from an unbiased furriner. Look at the fortune Mygahgah has spun out of nothing at all, better than a hundred Rapunzels.

Smurf: Okay, so Speed the Etc. might be more of a play than the thing I saw w/ Mahoodie in it; I can’t argue with your appreciation; I came away wondering if I’d seen a play at all.

I hope she tests the law on stage and gets busted for it. Let a thought-crime statute come up against a Capable Michigan Woman, and we’ll see who wins. (I almost said “who comes out on top,” but w/ Madonnoid on the job, we know the answer.)