An open message to Killtown from an Old Friend of the Forum

[Hutch]

Killtown:

I was asked to post this here by the person whose signature appears on the bottom of the message. If anyone has doubts on that score, I will post the salutation from the message in this thread.

I open a new thread because the topic addressed (Pentagon) is not really part of the other threads and I do not wish to cause a derail to those discussions, so I determined to open a new one.

More of my comments to follow, but here is the message:


Killtown,
I am certainly aware of people like yourself who believe that those of us who suffered on 9/11 must be part of some giant plot, either as dupes or plotters. I was in the Pentagon when the plane hit, I held parts of that aircraft in my hands, covered with fuel and oil, and I helped with the triage area. I helped a guy with a headwound, aided ambulances coming in, and suffer to this day with ongoing nightmares on a very regular basis. When one has seen what I saw, and had to do what I had to do, the images, the smells, the sounds, resonate in your mind forever.

I do not object to your desire to dispute the facts of that day. While I feel you are hopelessly naive and silly, that is your right. But please know that your page on the Pentagon crash is deeply offensive to the survivors such as myself. Again, it's not that you argue. But your tone is one of mocking, of making light of the greatest suffering I ever saw in my 25 years of military service. Your fake "quotes," your quips, all mock the pain of those of us that were there, and served that day. I am very likely one of the people in some of your photographs, and I assure you our thoughts were not about the grass (a silly claim you make, by the way), but were deeply, intensely worried about the people hurt, the people left inside. I will never forget that day, and while I can forgive your foolishness in not understanding the facts, the science, the reality of that day, I find it much harder to forgive your willingness to laugh at those who were so terribly hurt that day. Such an attitude shows you to be a cruel and heartless person, in addition to silly one.

LT Col Hal Bidlack
USAF Retired


Hutch again. For the many new people who have joined the JREF Forums, Hal Bidlack is a good and great friend of Mr. Randi and a staunch supporter of both the United States and skeptical thought. He has, for reasons in the past, decided not to post directly on the JREF Forums, a decision I respect but wish he would change, as you can see he has both intelligence, style, and something worth saying.

I will say this: I have learned three things in my years posting around the web:

1. If you are arguing against Jay Utah in regards to the Moon Hoax, save yourself energy and surrender immediately.

2. Never try to match Limericks with Mercutio.

3. If Hal Bidlack is on your side, don't worry about your 180...you're covered.

Killtown, I doubt you will respect this post or this poster anymore than others here; but I would suggest that you read it very, very carefully. and maybe, just maybe, learn.

Press on.

[chipmunk stew]

And they wonder why we bother...

Hal, everytime your name is mentioned here, I sense admiration and warmth. I gather that your impact is wide and deep. Thanks for your words.

[defaultdotxbe]

if anyone is wondering this is the page to which Lt Col Bidlack is referring

http://www.geocities.com/pentalawn2000/

[bob_kark]

That was nice of Hal to share his personal experience from that day. Unfortunately, its easy to get caught up in the debate and forget about the victims.

[Cleon]

Unfortunately, its easy to get caught up in the debate and forget about the victims.

How true that is...For many issues.

[Gravy]

Thanks Hal, and thanks Hutch.

[Dog Town]

I do not object to your desire to dispute the facts of that day. While I feel you are hopelessly naive and silly, that is your right.

He left out disgusting! Otherwise,that says it all for me! Thanks Hal, I salute you!

DT

[Sword_Of_Truth]

As a citizen of one of America's closest allies, I respect and appreciate Lt Col Bidlack for his service. And he has my deepest sympathies for his fallen brothers and sisters in arms.

[negativ]

I shall now present the CT "rebuttal".

Yes, it's true, you are the unwitting victim of the vast neo-con conspiracy to take away the freedom of Americans to wander around the streets of California (http://zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/) revealing The Truth<tm> to all those who have eyes to see.

When we finally REVEAL THE TRUTH, it won't be pretty for you.

[gtc]

Negativ,

You should probably put a not work safe on that link to Zombie's Hall of Shame.


From Killtown's site:
Of course, with an amazing new lawn like this that is sure to take the world by storm, we had to cover it up so our secret wouldn't get out.

Killtown must never have seen a construction site if he thinks this gravel is evidence of a cover up.

The rail yard across the road from me laid down a layer of gravel, right before they brought in the bulldozers. What devious felonies are they covering up and is it a coincedence that they are using the same brand of machinery that the zionists used to flatten Rachel Corrie?

[R.Mackey]

To Lt. Col. Bidlack, thank you for your service. In addition to having to suffer through the full horror of that day, I have a feeling that your actions helped save lives, and for that I am deeply indebted.

Your words are also eloquent and respectful, much more so than your adversaries deserve, perhaps. By these works I know you to be a gentleman.

To the 9/11 Deniers, and you know who you are, questioning and learning is healthy in all things. Please follow your questioning nature -- but be honest, to yourself, to others, and to the truth, and be respectful. Follow this wise man's example.

[CurtC]

I shall now present the CT "rebuttal".
I think the CTs usually spell it "rebuttle." Seriously.

Yes, it's true, you are the unwitting victim of the vast neo-con conspiracy to take away the freedom of Americans to wander around the streets of California (http://zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/) revealing The Truth<tm> to all those who have eyes to see.
"Scrotal inflation"? I feel so... sheltered.

The crowd seemed to be pretty anti-semitic, all the while equating their opponents with nazis. I didn't understand that.

[Hamradioguy]

Thank you Col. Bidlack. Very well said indeed. A drink of your choice is on me during the cruise.

(Former) Capt. Taylor USAF

[gumboot]

Given the nature of killtown's website, Lt Col Bidlack has been incredibly polite and respectful in expressing his disappointment.

I'm impressed yet again by the calibre of people who have served, and continue to serve, in the US armed forces.

-Andrew

[kookbreaker]

Negativ,
Killtown must never have seen a construction site if he thinks this gravel is evidence of a cover up.


Remember that this is the same Killtown that thinks you can't light the Barbeque if the power is out.

[juryjone]

First of all, let me also thank Hal for his thoughts on that terrible day. You, as always, show yourself to be a credit to the human race.

Illustrating the other side of the coin, we have Killtown. I was wondering why he has made no response to this thread. As it turns out, he has, but in another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1850390&postcount=144) so he doesn't have to show his face here:

Originally Posted by Hutch http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1850350#post1850350)
BTW, Killtown, you don't have any kind words for Hal in the thread I started...
Yes, he's confused and misguided to what my site it all about and what my thoughts are. I'm an easy target and he's capitalizing on it either intentionally, or unintentionally.

Btw, why didn't he CC me on it? My email is well known.


I am disgusted by this totally reprehensible excuse for a person.

[Axiom_Blade]

Yes, it's true, you are the unwitting victim of the vast neo-con conspiracy to take away the freedom of Americans to wander around the streets of California (http://zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/) revealing The Truth<tm> to all those who have eyes to see.


I'm glad you posted a webpage that helps confirm my theory that all anti-war people are total wackjobs.

[senorpogo]

Remember that this is the same Killtown that thinks you can't light the Barbeque if the power is out.

huh?

[kookbreaker]

huh?

From his blog:


...put on a barbecue for the rescue crews as if she was anticipating the events. How was she able to cook for the crews with her electricity knocked out?

He said it, I didn't.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I'm glad you posted a webpage that helps confirm my theory that all anti-war people are total wackjobs.

Just as you said elsewhere that there are people who oppose the existence of the State of Israel yet are not anti-semites, I'm certain there are honest anti-war people who are not clinically insane.

[KingMerv00]

From his blog:



He said it, I didn't.

Dope.

Him not you.

[senorpogo]

He said it, I didn't.

:Banane08:

[Bronze Dog]

Well said, Hal.

[LashL]

Hutch, thanks for posting this.

The single most disturbing thing to me about CTers is how willing they are to ridicule, deride, and insult both the victims and the survivors of the attacks.

The killtown site is worst than most in that regard, although the self proclaimed "scholars" are nearly as bad, and loose change is, of course, just as bad.

Lt Col Hal Bidlack exhibits more grace and class in his letter to the anonymous person calling himself/herself "killtown" than most people could have mustered in the same circumstances.

Very well done, Mr. Bidlack. Very well done.

[CurtC]

I'm glad you posted a webpage that helps confirm my theory that all anti-war people are total wackjobs.
I submit http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060817/ap_on_re_us/flight_diverted :
Mayo's son, Josh, 31, described his mother as a peace activist and said she had been in Pakistan since March...

In the affidavit, Choldin says flight attendants noticed Mayo about 90 minutes into the flight because she was pushing against the aircraft bulkhead. When the attendant told her to return to her seat, Mayo said she wanted to speak to an air marshal and made statements about knowing that people wanted to see what was in her bag.

...

Later during the flight, according to the affidavit, Mayo asked a flight attendant: "Is this a training flight for United Flight 93?" The flight attendant didn't know if she made a mistake because the flight was actually Flight 923, or if she was referring to Flight 93, the hijacked plane that crashed in Pennsylvania on Sept. 11.

...

Flight attendants summoned the captain, who spoke to Mayo. During the conversation, she made reference to there being "six steps to building some unspecified thing."

...

About 35 minutes later, when she tried to go to the bathroom, the flight attendants directed her to a different lavatory. Instead, she pulled down her pants and urinated on the floor

[fuelair]

I submit http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060817/ap_on_re_us/flight_diverted :


Hey, anybody in here seen some doof named Killtown?? Thought I heard someone calling him but can't locate him anywhere.

[fuelair]

I'm glad you posted a webpage that helps confirm my theory that all anti-war people are total wackjobs.

Actually, not all anti-war people are whack-jobs. I, for example, am anti-war. I am willing to do what is necessary to take out the people who want to kill off others because of their beliefs, color, sex preference etc. I want a calm, easy-going friendly, respectful world and I am willing to kill to get it. In other words I am willing to fight to end war. (though, because I am not stupid, I realize that may be impossible).

[Azure]

Well where is Killtown?

Good post Hutch!

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Well where is Killtown?

Good post Hutch!

Probably staking out the local synagogue, waiting for "them" to try something so he can get it on film.

[defaultdotxbe]

Probably staking out the local synagogue, waiting for "them" to try something so he can get it on film.

everyone knows, a celebrating jew must have just blown something up

[Axiom_Blade]

Just as you said elsewhere that there are people who oppose the existence of the State of Israel yet are not anti-semites, I'm certain there are honest anti-war people who are not clinically insane.

I was being sarcastic...oh well.
Those webpages that attempt to tar the entire left wing as frothing anarchists with some carefully chosen photos are pretty irritating.

[Gravy]

Just as you said elsewhere that there are people who oppose the existence of the State of Israel yet are not anti-semites, I'm certain there are honest anti-war people who are not clinically insane.
I hope I'm one!

[Regnad Kcin]

Some time ago, when Mr. Bidlack (Hal, as he like to be called) was a regular moderator and contributor here, he was nothing but a positive presence. His patience in the face of the long-term antics of latinijral and Carlos Swett alone qualified him for sainthood.

Nice to see another of his posts, even if it's by messenger.

[kookbreaker]

Some time ago, when Mr. Bidlack (Hal, as he like to be called) was a regular moderator and contributor here, he was nothing but a positive presence. His patience in the face of the long-term antics of latinijral and Carlos Swett alone qualified him for sainthood.

Nice to see another of his posts, even if it's by messenger.

Sadly, it is wasted words, Killtown is too busy playing with his smoke plume.

[fuelair]

Sadly, it is wasted words, Killtown is too busy playing with his smoke plume.

Smoke plume, hmmmmmm - so that's what they call it now. Knew he playing with something - but I thought.....:rolleyes:

Edit: added o

[WildCat]

Smoke plume, hmmmmmm - so that's what they call it now. Knew he playing with something - but I thought.....:rolleyes:

Edit: added o
Yeah, he went out to "pull it".

:boxedin:

[Sword_Of_Truth]

"Dancing with his little Israeli" eh?

[smother]

The constant mocking of the victims is really what aggravates me the most about the CT's. And then they often have the audacity to dedicate their efforts to the same victims that they have just mocked.

And it really pisses me off when I hear Dylan Avery claiming that Bernard Brown Sr. sent his son off to die. No dad would do that. Period. It's that simple. When (or if) Dylan gets children one can only hope that he will reach that conclusion as well.

Salute to you, Hal.

[kevin]

I'm glad you posted a webpage that helps confirm my theory that all anti-war people are total wackjobs.

Not sure it makes me anti-war but I've opposed the war in Iraq since the WMD claims started floating around as a justification. I believe the current administration, at best, cherry picked intelligence reports for justifications for war, and that they may have fabricated evidence (but not about 9/11) to support their position.

If that makes me a whackjob, at least I'll rest easy knowing that I can spell the word correctly.

[Darth Rotor]

Not sure it makes me anti-war but I've opposed the war in Iraq since the WMD claims started floating around as a justification. I believe the current administration, at best, cherry picked intelligence reports for justifications for war, and that they may have fabricated evidence (but not about 9/11) to support their position.

If that makes me a whackjob, at least I'll rest easy knowing that I can spell the word correctly.
Daniel Ellsberg is no whack job, nor was General (USMC retired) Anthony Zinni, nor is Naom Chomsky. (Though I do find his whining to be tiresome.)

You are in good company.

DR

[valis]

I was being sarcastic...oh well.
Those webpages that attempt to tar the entire left wing as frothing anarchists with some carefully chosen photos are pretty irritating.

Those pics were all from the SF Bay area. I would say, at least from the times I have been there, that those sentiments are fairly represenative of that area.

[valis]

Daniel Ellsberg is no whack job, nor was General (USMC retired) Anthony Zinni, nor is Naom Chomsky. (Though I do find his whining to be tiresome.)



I could point out that the above statement is insaccurate; but what the heck, two out of three 'aint bad.

[TK0001]

Bump.

For Killtown.

I don't know you (or your screen name), Hal, but your words gave me shivers. They reminded me that this business of debunking these maniacs who drool over the thought of exploiting the 9/11 victims and their families in order to squeeze every penny from people who prefer to be poorly informed is an important task.

Thanks for your very important thoughts.

[Darth Rotor]

I could point out that the above statement is insaccurate; but what the heck, two out of three 'aint bad.
Which of those men is a whack job?

DR

[TK0001]

Hutch - may I post Hal's words here in other forums? I think it's important for CTists to see these words, so they maybe will figure out that the goose chase they insist upon wasting their time with is actually personally insulting to a lot of people.

[TobiasTheViking]

I agree with TK0001.

Honestly, i'm thinking of going on the offensive against them. As in, making a site showing the relationship to nazi thing. Give them some of their own poison, stoop to their level.

*grrr*

[Hutch]

Hutch - may I post Hal's words here in other forums? I think it's important for CTists to see these words, so they maybe will figure out that the goose chase they insist upon wasting their time with is actually personally insulting to a lot of people.


TK, you can PM him if you wish to ask for his permission-He's still listed here as Hal Bidlack. He may not want to become engaged that deeply and give the CT'ers reason to attack him directly--not that they would be likely to intimidate Hal, but the man does have some rights to privacy...

That said, it never hurts to ask respectfully.

[roger]

I hate to post the experiences of others, especially in such a case, but perhaps it is okay in this case.

Our company had staff at the pentagon on 9/11. As it happens, they were in windowed offices right next to the strike point; just far enough away to have their office destroyed, but not to be killed by the fireball.

They saw it all. The hit, the explosion. They dragged people out. They saw burning corpses. Then they walked here (metro was shut down). They sat with us around a TV set, shaking. One just kept saying to the other: "(Name witheld), I haven't seen anything like that since Nam". War veterns, used to death and killing, shaking.

They saw it; it happened. They live with the aftermath every day.

CTers are scum. Forum rules prohibit me from expressing myself more directly.

[TK0001]

TK, you can PM him if you wish to ask for his permission-He's still listed here as Hal Bidlack. He may not want to become engaged that deeply and give the CT'ers reason to attack him directly--not that they would be likely to intimidate Hal, but the man does have some rights to privacy...

That said, it never hurts to ask respectfully.

Thanks. I wouldn't think of using his name without permission. I'll have to think a bit more whether I want to actually do it. I just don't think it'll be effective to the Mark of the Beast crowd....

[Belz...]

Hutch again. For the many new people who have joined the JREF Forums, Hal Bidlack is a good and great friend of Mr. Randi and a staunch supporter of both the United States and skeptical thought. He has, for reasons in the past, decided not to post directly on the JREF Forums, a decision I respect but wish he would change, as you can see he has both intelligence, style, and something worth saying.

I concur.

1. If you are arguing against Jay Utah in regards to the Moon Hoax, save yourself energy and surrender immediately.

1b. If you are arguing against Buzz Aldrin in regards to the Moon Hoax, bring a mouthguard.

[Darth Rotor]

1b. If you are arguing against Buzz Aldrin in regards to the Moon Hoax, bring a mouthguard.
I'd like to see Buzz punch a few more, my self. The episode I saw on Youtube made me giggle with glee.

DR

[kookbreaker]

I'd like to see Buzz punch a few more, my self. The episode I saw on Youtube made me giggle with glee.


As satisfying as it was, it was circumstances I should not like our National Heroes to have to undergo.

I'd much rather fool the Moon Hoax nutters into thinking they are going to get an ambush interview of an astronaut and end up in facing a gang of bikers.

[Darth Rotor]

As satisfying as it was, it was circumstances I should not like our National Heroes to have to undergo.

I'd much rather fool the Moon Hoax nutters into thinking they are going to get an ambush interview of an astronaut and end up in facing a gang of bikers.
Joe Foss had his Medal of Honor (in his bag) confiscated at an airport (IIRC, in Arizona.) as being a sharp object.

If that isn't a load of crap, what is? The TSA hire morons, and give them moron rules, and don't apply any sense to their jobs.

Enough about me, how much do we have to pay the bikers to do that ambush? It'd be fun to watch. Yes, I am a sick man. :p

DR

[Beleth]

Killtown's response to Hal's post is quite telling.

[Axiom_Blade]

If that makes me a whackjob, at least I'll rest easy knowing that I can spell the word correctly.

No, durng-nabbit! If it comes from whacko (right?), then it can be spelled either way.
The root seems to be w(h)acky.

"War makes people wacky." Doesn't seem right, somehow.
"War is whack." That's better. I'm gonna go off and make some t-shirts now.

[CurtC]

No, no, no. "Whacky" is just wrong. "Whack" means "to hit."

"Wacky" means crazy.

[kevin]

No, durng-nabbit! If it comes from whacko (right?), then it can be spelled either way.
The root seems to be w(h)acky.

You wanna fight about it!? 8-)

[TK0001]

Whoops, this almost slipped off the first page!

Bump for killzytowzy!

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Hmmm... "whack" is a euphemism for masturbation. As in Penn & Tellers comment "These people whack to tragedy." "Pull it" is also a euphemism for masturbation.

I'm starting to see a pattern here... Possibly even A CONSPIRACY!!!

[MortFurd]

Hmmm... "whack" is a euphemism for masturbation.
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Then what does that make of "Whack a Mole?" :eye-poppi

[Sword_Of_Truth]

EDIT: Dumb joke. If this were any other thread, I would have left it in. But not in Col Bidlacks thread.

[Azure]

Killtown.....

[Gravy]

Killtown lacks the courage to answer simple questions from folks like me who have never put their lives on the line for their country or faced the horrors of 9/11 in the flesh. He certainly won't be responding to Hal Bidlack. But I think it's worth bumping this thread for the benefit of new members and lurkers.

[T.A.M.]

Bump

here Killy, Killy, Killy....

[Skeptic Guy]

Daniel Ellsberg is no whack job, nor was General (USMC retired) Anthony Zinni, nor is Naom Chomsky. (Though I do find his whining to be tiresome.)

You are in good company.

DR

Hear, hear. Preemptive war, my toushie.

[Checkmite]

Killtown lacks the courage to answer simple questions from folks like me who have never put their lives on the line for their country or faced the horrors of 9/11 in the flesh. He certainly won't be responding to Hal Bidlack.

The one element the conspiracy theorists can't argue against is the eyewitnesses. Nor do they care. Killtown doesn't care what people went through on that day. The victims are nobodies - nothings. A person who was actually there and saw what happened with his own eyes is simply not important to CTists, unless he says something which could possibly be spun as inconsistent with "the mainstream".

Mr. Bidlack is such a gentleman, it's almost (but not quite) aggrevating.

[Hutch]

I did recieve a follow-up PM message from Hal, but didn't see a reason to post it until now, but as the conversation has moved towards the subject of Killtowns' lack of reply, I trust that hal won't mind me quoting him again:

First, please call me hal. And second, thanks for your very kind words, and for posting my comments**. As expected, the low life has no reply other than to shout nonsense. But, I do feel better for having vented

Of course, he could not reply in your thread, in much the same way bugs scurry from the light. What a terrible person, sad actually. I wonder if he is a frustrated 50 year old loner, or a silly 18 year old kid?

again, thanks so much for your kindness.
hal



I placed the ** because I am insufferably pleased with myself that Hal Bidlack was complimenting me...

Otherwise, I think his analysis is perhaps wrong, I see KT as a disaffected 20-something who has grown up his whole life seeing pictures and videos and believeing them to be true rather than using math, science and reading. My opinion only.

[T.A.M.]

I agree Hutch. I see many, if not most of the CTers as exactly as you describe KT.

I have had CTers actually tell me that what has solidified the "Truth" for them, were "videos" they have watched...ie other people telling them, via video, what happened on that day.

What ever happened to math, science, eye witness testimony, factual evidence, expert opinion...have these become worthless to the 20 something generation. I know as a 30 something guy, these elements are the FOUNDATION of all things in my world.

[Axiom_Blade]

What ever happened to math, science, eye witness testimony, factual evidence, expert opinion...have these become worthless to the 20 something generation.

BOH-RING!
Who has time for that?


I know as a 30 something guy, these elements are the FOUNDATION of all things in my world.

Fortunately for you.
Although it seems like the majority of CTers online are kids (because, let's face it, most people online are kids), I've actually met a disturbingly large number of CTers in Real Life who are well over the age of 30; some in their 40s or 50s.

If you have goofy ideas and you're in your 20s, I might still laugh at you, but I'm ready to cut quite a bit of slack. I was dumb as hell in my early 20s. But if you're still in the tinfoil hat crowd by middle age, it's not funny anymore, it's pathetic.

But, I think that if you're still young, there's a good chance they can get out of the CT cult. Hopefully, with age, they'll begin to appreciate some good, solid thinking, as opposed to what just "sounds right". I eventually just got tired of all the BS in the world. You get taken advantage of enough times, you become pretty skeptical.

[Gravy]

.Otherwise, I think his analysis is perhaps wrong, I see KT as a disaffected 20-something who has grown up his whole life seeing pictures and videos and believeing them to be true rather than using math, science and reading. My opinion only.
According to his Myspace page (http://myspace.com/killtown), he's 31 and living in D.C., but for all we know he could be a 16 year-old in Bangalore.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

According to his Myspace page (http://myspace.com/killtown), he's 31 and living in D.C., but for all we know he could be a 16 year-old in Bangalore.

Did you notice David Icke is in KT's friends list?

I know that "guilt by association" is a logical fallicy but most people still excersize some restraint just to protect themselves. :p

[smother]

The one element the conspiracy theorists can't argue against is the eyewitnesses. Nor do they care. Killtown doesn't care what people went through on that day. The victims are nobodies - nothings. A person who was actually there and saw what happened with his own eyes is simply not important to CTists, unless he says something which could possibly be spun as inconsistent with "the mainstream".


Spot on. If (and that's a mighty big "if") I was among the LC crowd, I would start wondering, how come there are no eye witnesses on my team. How come my team consists solely of armchair experts who interpretes grainy videos like the devil interpretes the Bible.

Dylan Avery said it himself: "The people are really secondary" - translation: "me, me, me, me, me and me is all I care about".

They are not seeking the truth. They are just interested in Andy Warhols 15 minutes of fame.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Spot on. If (and that's a mighty big "if") I was among the LC crowd, I would start wondering, how come there are no eye witnesses on my team. How come my team consists solely of armchair experts who interpretes grainy videos like the devil interpretes the Bible.

Dylan Avery said it himself: "The people are really secondary" - translation: "me, me, me, me, me and me is all I care about".

They are not seeking the truth. They are just interested in Andy Warhols 15 minutes of fame.

More than 45,000 eyewitnesses survived the destruction of the twin towers and WTC7.

If 10% of them saw something unusual in the days and weeks leading up to 9-11, there would be thousands of eyewitness reports.

[Gravy]

Dylan Avery said it himself: "The people are really secondary" - translation: "me, me, me, me, me and me is all I care about".

That was Jason Bermas, to whom reality is really secondary.

[smother]

That was Jason Bermas, to whom reality is really secondary.

Ooops. This is what happens when you just watch grainy video and don't do your homework.

[Skeptic Guy]

According to his Myspace page (http://myspace.com/killtown), he's 31 and living in D.C., but for all we know he could be a 16 year-old in Bangalore.

It also says he is a "swinger" and a "Capricorn"...

[Brainache]

It also says he is a "swinger" and a "Capricorn"...

Well that settles it. A Capricorn???

I don't see why liking big band music from the forties is a problem tho...;)

[Skeptic Guy]

Well that settles it. A Capricorn???

I don't see why liking big band music from the forties is a problem tho...;)

If only that is what he meant...I need to go burn out my mind's eye now...

see ya.

[NoZed Avenger]

When (or if) Dylan gets children- .



Gahhh.


I just threw up a little in my mouth.

[Gravy]

Bump.

[hellaeon]

Im constantly reminded of that you tube or google video of the guy sitting down in the cafe, using a texta to write the loose change title on a heap of DVDs. Sad sad sad.

I agree with the earlier post - CTers are scum. Im tired of them. Even now with so much information showing the pile of ***** that is loose change we still have those who cling on to the idiocy. Some I would pity due to mental illness, but others such as dylan, persist even though they are shown to be completely and utterly WRONG.

[Regnad Kcin]

Right on, my friend. There is no excuse for their behavior.

[Gravy]

Bump for Killtown

[ghost707]

The folks at Boeing must roll their eyes at CTers thinking: how can people be so unaware of basic physics?

[Checkmite]

Perhaps more than rolling their eyes. Ever ask a WWII vet who happened to have the misfortune of helping liberate a concentration camp how he feels about Holocaust deniers? I've personally spoken with two such men.

This whole 9-11 business is the same product in a different package.

[Polaris]

I agree with TK0001.

Honestly, i'm thinking of going on the offensive against them. As in, making a site showing the relationship to nazi thing. Give them some of their own poison, stoop to their level.

*grrr*

No bas*** ever won a war by dying for his country, after all.

[Gravy]

I see that Killtown's back. What's your reply to Mr. Bidlack, Killtown?

[JohnM307]

Killtown must never have seen a construction site if he thinks this gravel is evidence of a cover up.


Hey, he's being sarcastic of course. Gravel as an attempt to cover up the fantastic ability of a lawn to withstand and repel the ugly remains of an airplane crash.

The point, of course, is that the plane didn't touch the ground before hitting the Pentagon -- despite numerous eyewitnesses saying otherwise. One witness even claimed that the airplane cartwheeled into the building -- or was that the Time reporter's elaboration?

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,174655-4,00.html

This is one clue on the reliability of eyewitnesses to the Pentagon attack.

I think that it's perfectly fair to use ridicule as a tactic against a ridiculous theory. The Colonel's open letter is unfortunately one example out of numerous where victims of the attack jump on one who suggests that they may have got the story wrong.

[qarnos]

This is one clue on the reliability of eyewitnesses to the Pentagon attack.

Here is an interesting article regards eyewitness reliability in air crashes:

For Air Crash Detectives, Seeing Isn't Believing By MATTHEW L. WALD

www-psych [dot] stanford [dot] edu/~bigopp/witness.html

A few snippets:

HUNDREDS of people watched the crash of American Airlines Flight 587 near Kennedy International Airport in New York on Nov. 12, and in the course of 93 seconds they apparently saw hundreds of different things.

According to the National Transportation Safety Board, which announced this month that it had gathered 349 eyewitness accounts through interviews or written statements, 52 percent said they saw a fire while the plane was in the air. The largest number (22 percent) said the fire was in the fuselage, but a majority cited other locations, including the left engine, the right engine, the left wing, the right wing or an unspecified engine or wing.

As a result, the safety board generally doesn't place much value on eyewitness reports if data and voice recorders are available. For many investigators, the only infallible witness is a twisted piece of metal.

There are other well-known cases of witness error, including the crash of a Lauda Air Boeing 767 near Bangkok in May 1991. Witnesses said they heard a bomb and saw the plane fall in flames, but it turned out to be a mechanical problem.

[Gravy]

I think that it's perfectly fair to use ridicule as a tactic against a ridiculous theory. The Colonel's open letter is unfortunately one example out of numerous where victims of the attack jump on one who suggests that they may have got the story wrong.
Your suggestion that the Pentagon no-planers don't deserve to be castigated by survivors of the attack is irresponsible, and, in the context of this thread, disgusting. If Hal Bidlack's word isn't good enough for you, PM me and I'll provide you with evidence from many sources. Have a great day.

[gumboot]

Joe Foss had his Medal of Honor (in his bag) confiscated at an airport (IIRC, in Arizona.) as being a sharp object.

That's just...I can't believe...I mean...Speechless. I'm actually speechless.

I'm trying to imagine a local airport confiscating a Victoria Cross off a veteran. I actually can't conceive of it. I feel ill.

:mad:



What ever happened to math, science, eye witness testimony, factual evidence, expert opinion...have these become worthless to the 20 something generation.


Only to some of us...;)

On a side note... the other night I had a gathering of my twenty-something friends at a birthday BBQ. I mentioned I had recently seen "United 93" which immediately led into a bit of a CT discussion. One guy there is fairly rabidly anti-American, NWO, a bit pro-anarchy, etc... I'd paint him as a neck-deep CTer.

Within about 2 minutes my responses demolished all consideration of a conspiracy and everyone there accepted 9/11 occured basically as the official story claims.

I was very proud of my friends. :D

-Andrew

[JohnM307]

Your suggestion that the Pentagon no-planers don't deserve to be castigated by survivors of the attack is irresponsible, and, in the context of this thread, disgusting. If Hal Bidlack's word isn't good enough for you, PM me and I'll provide you with evidence from many sources. Have a great day.

Please, don't confuse no-planers with those who recognize that something flew in and hit the Pentagon, but think it was not AA Flight 77. Is Hal Bidlack in a position to personally know that the object hitting the Pentagon was Flight 77? If not, his word isn't good enough for me.

For example, did he recognize the aircraft pieces that he held in his hand as unambiguously belonging to AA Flight 77?

And is it really pro-victim to shout down those who are trying to tell the truth as they know it about 9/11? Perhaps the 9/11 victims are being used by those who would cover up 9/11, or who would exploit 9/11 for their own ends -- concentration camps, aggressive war, and so forth.

Remember how the Bush Administration kept poking the 9/11 victims in the eye by opposing investigation of 9/11?

[Ducky]

Please, don't confuse no-planers with those who recognize that something flew in and hit the Pentagon, but think it was not AA Flight 77. Is Hal Bidlack in a position to personally know that the object hitting the Pentagon was Flight 77? If not, his word isn't good enough for me.

Hal Bidlack was actually there that day. He actually was on the premises. Where were you?

For example, did he recognize the aircraft pieces that he held in his hand as unambiguously belonging to AA Flight 77?

What evidence do you have that it was not part of that flight?

And is it really pro-victim to shout down those who are trying to tell the truth as they know it about 9/11? Perhaps the 9/11 victims are being used by those who would cover up 9/11, or who would exploit 9/11 for their own ends -- concentration camps, aggressive war, and so forth.

If those that "tell the truth as they see it" see it wrong and act in a way that insults the victims of that day, then yes - shouting down those people is pro-victim.

Remember how the Bush Administration kept poking the 9/11 victims in the eye by opposing investigation of 9/11?

No I don't. I remember the NIST report, and it's very long list of direct sources. Why don't you tell me about this opposition of Bush's? please enlighten us all.

Be prepared for us to fact-check your claims, don't make the same mistake as Christophera.

[JohnM307]

Hal Bidlack was actually there that day. He actually was on the premises. Where were you?

What does it matter where I was?

What evidence do you have that it was not part of that flight?


Oh, come on. The question is what positive proof do we have that the plane hitting the Pentagon was AA Flight 77? And one question one might ask is proof that the airplane debris in the Pentagon actually came from Flight 77, and not another plane.

If he has expertize or personal knowledge of that fact, then someone trying to understand what happened would accept his word. On the other hand, if he doesn't have expertize or personal knowledge, then one should not accept his word.

This is just common sense. Asking for proof that the debris wasn't from Flight 77 is like asking for proof that a certain blurry person in a video wasn't Joe M. Schmoe of 2993 Walnut St., Blah VE, 20032.


If those that "tell the truth as they see it" see it wrong and act in a way that insults the victims of that day, then yes - shouting down those people is pro-victim.


It's not pro-victim if they're telling the truth. And what you're doing is shouting them down without first considering whether they're telling the truth.


No I don't. I remember the NIST report, and it's very long list of direct sources. Why don't you tell me about this opposition of Bush's? please enlighten us all.


Oh, you mean like this report that states in its entirety?


The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 are under the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The Safety Board provided requested technical assistance to the FBI, and this material generated by the NTSB is under the control of the FBI. The Safety Board does not plan to issue a report or open a public docket.


http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20020123X00103&ntsbno=DCA01MA060&akey=1

Or maybe these reports about specific details, which were released well after then 9/11 Commission's report?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/index.htm

Funny, you never linked to your specific report.


Be prepared for us to fact-check your claims, don't make the same mistake as Christophera.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/about/faq.htm

The 9/11 Commission was formed in November 2002 -- fourteen months after 9/11. It's initial budget was $3 million. Congress provided $11 million more several months later, and then another million was provided later.

The Bush Administration rejected the increase of $11 million. Congress had to do it.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,437267,00.html

Bush opposed the commission in May 2002.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/15/attack/main509096.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/20/national/main522682.shtml

Don't tell me you never heard of the Family Steering Committee or The Jersey Girls who fought for the formation of the independent commission, only to be brushed off by the Bush Administration for a long time until the Bush Administration caved in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_Steering_Committee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_girls

And then there were numerous complaints about the Bush Administration stonewalling the Commission requests.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/27/bush.911/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Cleland

When were the commissions investigating the two space shuttle disasters formed -- how long after the disasters? What funding were they allocated?

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0C16FB3E5C0C738EDDAC0894DA4044 82
http://cnn.allpolitics.printthis.clickability.com/pt/cpt?action=cpt&title=CNN.com+-+Bush+asks+Daschle+to+limit+Sept.+11+probes+-+January+29%2C+2002&expire=-1&urlID=1988536&fb=Y&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2002%2FALLPOLITICS% 2F01%2F29%2Finv.terror.probe%2Findex.html&partnerID=2001

http://www.wanttoknow.info/020204newsweek (A Newsweek article)

"Press the issue, Cheney implied, and you risk being accused of interfering with the mission." The mission being the war on terrorism, and the issue being investigating 9/11.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/23/1546256 Max Cleland complains that the Bush Administration is playing coverup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Inquiry_into_Intelligence_Community_Activiti es_before_and_after_the_Terrorist_Attacks_of_Septe mber_11%2C_2001

Unfortunately, I can't find references right now stating how agents testified for the Joint Inquiry under the eyes and ears of superiors, keeping watch of their testimony.

Overall, the Bush Administration was in cover-up mode about 9/11.

[JohnM307]

Here is an interesting article regards eyewitness reliability in air crashes:

For Air Crash Detectives, Seeing Isn't Believing By MATTHEW L. WALD

www-psych [dot] stanford [dot] edu/~bigopp/witness.html

A few snippets:

Thank-you for this reply. It's nice to have someone supportive for once.

[T.A.M.]

Fundamentally it comes down to this.

Something blew a hole in the Pentagon on 9/11. Officials, along with several investigative bodies have concluded it was AA77. Witnesses confirm this more than they lend credance to any other theory.

For some reason, every Doubter of the official story seems to think they are the head of some organization that is entitled to all of the evidence. Where do they get off. The FBI is the organization responsible for investigating crimes against america, within america. Unless you are part of the FBI, you are actually entitled to jack shaite besides their conclusions based on THEIR investigation.

Face it, you are not going to get "carte blanche" access to "debris lists and itemizations" or "DNA analysis".

It is amusing that all those who doubt the official story state it is the responsibility of those who have "developed" the official story to "prove" it. These people are responsible for the investigations. They have proven it, to those they need to. If you have an "alternative theory" then it is up to YOU to prove your theory correct, or prove your theory "more likely" than theirs. If you are just asking questions, than expect to only get answers that come from the data they have collected...you are not entitled to the data itself.

Do you think that the FBI owes you more than what they have provided. If so, than what? If you think they owe the public an answer to every question, to every inconsistency, you are wrong...full stop.

Expressions like "It just doesn't sound right." or "There are too many inconsistencies" really doesn't matter too much to them, or most people. They investigated the scene, they provided an answer based on the investigation.

I am sick of people "just asking questions". Fine ask your questions, but they are not required to answer, and expect they don't have the time. Unless you plan on taking over as head of the FBI, I suggest you get use to it.

Now if you have a THEORY different from the official one about AA77 and the Pentagon, then lets hear it...then someone here can debate it.

TAM:mad: