Ghost Hunters Appeal To Skeptics?

[CLD]

Skeptical? You’ll Fit Right in to TAPS
by KCMorgan

One of the very few original shows broadcast by the Sci-Fi network, Ghost Hunters shows viewers the skeptic’s side of paranormal investigations.

Tarot cards, crystal balls, and weird seances not your thing? Ghost Hunters agrees with you. Taking a rational, level-headed, scientific approach to paranormal investigations, The Atlantic Paranormal Society (TAPS) investigates so-called paranormal disturbances with the goal to disprove and debunk.

Jason Hawes and Grant Wilson, founders of TAPS and plumbers by day, are both family men with normal day jobs. They gather their two clans together regularly for family cook-outs and outings. Between them, they have eight children to look after. They are completely normal, much like the other Rhode Island men who live in their neighborhood. Only…by night, Jason and Grant are Ghost Hunters.

TAPS started out in a spare room at Jason’s home and has become one of the fastest-growing paranormal societies in the US. The team’s professionalism and reputation have spread up and down the Atlantic coast, and TAPS investigators will travel up to 300 miles to investigate any paranormal abnormality. Their services are offered free of charge to anyone who seems to be experiencing genuine paranormal phenomenon.

Equipped with infrared cameras, digital thermometers, electromagnetic field recorders, night vision goggles, and thermal-imaging digital cameras, TAPS takes ghost hunting seriously. Their goals are to disprove and debunk claims of paranormal activity, finding logical causes behind personal experiences and claims of ghostly encounters.

Ghost Hunters is built around the inter-personal relationships between TAPS members. Lead investigators Jason and Grant are almost always paired together, sharing their thoughts and views on paranormal activity, the team they lead, and their personal lives. Tech manager Steve Gonsalves, who is a police officer by day, is a frequent field investigator featured on the show. Other team members include Andy, Brian (who comes and goes frequently), and Donna.

Skeptical and scientific, the TAPS team loads up their black SUVs to investigate paranormal disturbances in locations around the country. Antebellum mansions, famous restaurants, huge naval ships, and single family homes have all been explored by TAPS investigators. At many locales, paranormal activity is successfully debunked.

The 2006 season, however, did feature some notable locations that TAPS could not debunk. The famous hotel where Stephen King wrote his bestselling book “The Shining” was explored by TAPS investigators, who could not explain such strange things as glasses breaking, doors opening and closing by themselves, and strange noises. The famously haunted Waverly Hills Sanitorium in Louisville, Kentucky was also explored by TAPS investigators – none of whom could debunk the ghostly claims surrounding the creepy old hospital.

The level-headed, professional approach adopted by TAPS investigators have impressed and pleased many. The Sci-Fi network has no plans to pull the plug on Ghost Hunters - the show’s third season is set to premiere in October. For now, viewers can catch all the ghostly action from season two on Wednesday evenings.

And if you’re skeptical about ghosts, then you’ve already got something in common with the professionals at TAPS.

http://www.tvbloggin.com/2006/06/skeptical_youll_fit_right_in_t.html

[RemieV]

*gape*

[CLD]

Skeptics
Level-headed
Rational
Scientific
Professional
Completely Normal

Sounds good, eh?

But wait a minute.

They could not explain the strange goings-on at the Stanley Hotel!

And the creepy old Waverly Hospital could not be debunked!

Wooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If skeptics can't explain it...then....GHOSTS MUST BE REAL!!!!!


AIYEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(cash register sound) KA-CHING!

[SquishyDave]

If this is the same show I saw a few episodes of, and the guys I saw were plumbers also, then it's not really skeptical.

In one house, a kid was having trouble sleeping, and there was a laundry room which caused phsycal symptoms. By the end of the investigation, they said kid was playing computer games too close to bed time, fair enough. And that the laundry room was probably making people sick because of EM fields from some lights or something, possibly gas was mentioned, carbon dioxide or something. That would be fine expect they reached this conclusion (their initial hypothesis by the way) with out actually getting any high readings of anything. They just figured it was this and then went with it.

Another house had unexplained vibrations, and a door opened on film, by itself. A door latched so it couldn't open by itself apparently. They concluded it was haunted. They didn't even have someone on the road neaby to record if any trucks or cars went past when the vibrations occured. They thought the road was too far to allow any vibrations to reach the house, but they never eliminated it as a possible cause. They didn't rule out much of anything, when they couldn't see an obvious cause they jumped straight to ghosts. They had a medium along on that case. The owners of the house said up front they got them in only to confirm what they already knew, that the house was haunted. I would have loved have seen their faces when it was revealed every door rattling co-incided with a truck driving past or a gas main or something.

How can one unexplained phenoma be EM or gas and another be ghosts? They should have both stayed as unexplained.

I was disapointed by the lack of actual science, they just used some tools science had created but not the wonderful tool of science itself.

[Skeptic Guy]

Hey Guys (especially RemieV),

I finally signed up over at TAPS to take a look around and see if I could find out more about this ghost stuff. I started a discussion with someone under the EVP heading entitled "Are these EVPs real?"

I indicated that I couldn't hear anything understandable on any of the samples leave alone the messages they claimed were there. I also pointed out that science could not fathom how a ghost without a larynx could cause sound waves to propagate through the air, cause the diaphragm in a microphone to vibrate, and cause electrical impulses to be recorded on the tape or flash memory of an audio recorder. I am trying to be very understanding and non-confrontational.

One of the responses I received is below. It takes for granted that there has been "research" done in this field since the time of Edison and Tesla. I question the quality of this research and its results.

I doubt that ther has been any research outside of the spiritualist community, but I could be wrong. Can any of you point me in the direction of any of any research done in EVPs? I find it hard to believe that Einstein or Edison were involved, but if they were, I would bet they didn't find anything "positive".

Posted in TAPS site by rjinspired:

Research has been done since the time of Edison and Tesla with unknown voices. From environmental experiments performed in Faraday cages and tightly controlled environments have all ready been done as far back as 1970.

One book which I recommend is the Spiricom project. There are also documents by scientists, psychologist and electronic engineers linked in this book related to experiments with evp. I host the book on my site in the event that the site moves or doesn't host the book anymore.

There has always been scientific research in this field but it is mainly the independents doing this type of work and not mainstream science, with a few exceptions of some known and famous scientists such as Einstein, Edison and Nikola Tesla who have in one way or another experiemnted with evp and the paranormal.

The important thing is to try evp for yourself. When the time can be found, grab a recorder and give a try a couple of times, with both a skeptical and open mind. This is really the only way and it may take some time to even get anything. When going over any audio later on in the listening stage, you have to be both judgemental while at the same time open.

[sat556]

with both a skeptical and open mind

:boggled:

[Kochanski]

These kiddies need to see & hear Dr. Richard Wiseman demonstrate the way we find patterns in sounds, just once ;)

Ok, well maybe they will need to see it several times. Sheesh.

[Miss Whiplash]

Good luck Skeptic Guy! When I first joined TAPS in this past March, I would support my statements with links to references. Soon I was admonished by posters for "not using scholarly references." (anything that refuted belief in ghosts was deemed not scholarly) Next, outright heckling occurred until I was tossed off the board.

[DangerousBeliefs]

I still want to know what the TAPS folks are measuring and how they think these are ghosts.

EM fields?

Temperature changes?

Who said these were ghosts?

I love watching Ghost Plumbers... they're really good for a laugh. Ppppppppppsh.... did you hear it? Ppppppppppsh... there it was again (pure static sound) Ppppppppsh... Wow, that's proof positive ghosts are real.

[CLD]

Hey Skeptic Guy, is your posting on the TAPS 18+ board or their other board?

I believe Edison briefly mused about contacting the dead via telephone, but I know of no documented experiments done by him or any conclusions. Neither do I know of Einstein performing any experiments regarding the paranormal, unless you consider his musings about multidimensional space paranormal. Tesla engaged in some oddities of thought, but there are so many legends about his research it's hard to separate fact from fiction.

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on with EVP enthusiasts.

[sat556]

I still want to know what the TAPS folks are measuring and how they think these are ghosts.

EM fields?

Temperature changes?

Who said these were ghosts?


Only idiots. Very often these things are monitored along with many other things in the local environment for comparison readings with other alleged haunted locations. Whether anything is ever going to come of that, I doubt very much, at least not while only the fun ghost hunters are doing it. With regard to EM fields causing/being ghosts, that myth is certainly perpetuated by misinformed thrill seekers who saw one being used on tv and either drew their own conclusions about why it was being used, or were led astray by the
program itself.

[Skeptic Guy]

Hey Skeptic Guy, is your posting on the TAPS 18+ board or their other board?

I believe Edison briefly mused about contacting the dead via telephone, but I know of no documented experiments done by him or any conclusions. Neither do I know of Einstein performing any experiments regarding the paranormal, unless you consider his musings about multidimensional space paranormal. Tesla engaged in some oddities of thought, but there are so many legends about his research it's hard to separate fact from fiction.

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on with EVP enthusiasts.

It's posted on the standard board. I haven't gone to the 18+ board yet. I can only imagine the difference between the two! Naked ghosts or something. :D

I tried googling briefly last night, but couldn't find anything. I did ask the poster to give me some specifics but I haven't been back today. I will after work.

They did suggest that I look at the "Spiricom project", but that seemed too scholary for me! :D I asked for legitimate peer-reviewed scientific publications but I am not holding my breath.

Don't people hold strange ideas on Tesla's work in general?

[Skeptic Guy]

:boggled:

Yeah, I thought that was a very interesting statement too!

[Skeptic Guy]

These kiddies need to see & hear Dr. Richard Wiseman demonstrate the way we find patterns in sounds, just once ;)

Ok, well maybe they will need to see it several times. Sheesh.

This is helpful. I will look up Dr. Wiseman and see if I can include it in my posts.

It was interesting that after my first post, the person that had submitted the initial EVPs was very surprised that I stated that I could not hear anything. He was legitimately taken aback that I did not hear what I heard.

I told him that it would be very interesting if he would submit a few of the EVPs as part of a double blind test. We would have the forum listen to the samples, properly randomized and labeled so no one knows which one is which.

I would hazard a guess that not one person listening to the EVPs would come up with the same interpretation of what was recorded. I think it would work but let me know if you think it should be done differently. Not that I think they will take up the gauntlet.

[Skeptic Guy]

Good luck Skeptic Guy! When I first joined TAPS in this past March, I would support my statements with links to references. Soon I was admonished by posters for "not using scholarly references." (anything that refuted belief in ghosts was deemed not scholarly) Next, outright heckling occurred until I was tossed off the board.

I suspect that this is where I am heading too.

[Bronze Dog]

with both a skeptical and open mind
Isn't that kind of redundant?

[CLD]

This is helpful. I will look up Dr. Wiseman and see if I can include it in my posts.

It was interesting that after my first post, the person that had submitted the initial EVPs was very surprised that I stated that I could not hear anything. He was legitimately taken aback that I did not hear what I heard.

I told him that it would be very interesting if he would submit a few of the EVPs as part of a double blind test. We would have the forum listen to the samples, properly randomized and labeled so no one knows which one is which.

I would hazard a guess that not one person listening to the EVPs would come up with the same interpretation of what was recorded. I think it would work but let me know if you think it should be done differently. Not that I think they will take up the gauntlet.

Skeptic Guy, I am not sure the TAPS kids want to think too deeply about it. They are thrill seekers who walk around in the dark whispering to each other while holding tape recorders. Later, they play back a recording of someone sneezing, then tell each other "this sounds like a ghost saying 'GET YOU'". :D

[Skeptic Guy]

Skeptic Guy, I am not sure the TAPS kids want to think too deeply about it. They are thrill seekers who walk around in the dark whispering to each other while holding tape recorders. Later, they play back a recording of someone sneezing, then tell each other "this sounds like a ghost saying 'GET YOU'". :D

I have to tell you that I was amazed as to how many on the site could hear anything on the wav files that had been uploaded.

Comments like, "Yeah, the ghost is saying, "God is here" or "Help me," were common throughout.

[CLD]

Skeptic Guy, you should try posting an EVP of you whispering (several feet away from the mike) "you people are deluded". See if they hear anything.

[gfunkusarelius]

ha, we have a ghost door in our conference room then. the door latches- tho it is never actually latched when it opens "by itself". what is the source of the ghost? a passing truck? slight tremors? no, a totally unnoticeable change in air pressure. when another door is closed this one opens, or when the a/c kicks on (noiselessly in our building), or even when someone moves around in the room. it can seem really spooky but jeez come on guys.

[Skeptic Guy]

Skeptic Guy, you should try posting an EVP of you whispering (several feet away from the mike) "you people are deluded". See if they hear anything.

That's a great idea but it would blow my "non-confrontational" approach. I might have to resort to it though.

[Skeptic Guy]

ha, we have a ghost door in our conference room then. the door latches- tho it is never actually latched when it opens "by itself". what is the source of the ghost? a passing truck? slight tremors? no, a totally unnoticeable change in air pressure. when another door is closed this one opens, or when the a/c kicks on (noiselessly in our building), or even when someone moves around in the room. it can seem really spooky but jeez come on guys.

I hope you got our your EMF detectors and your thermal scanners. You might just find something.

[CLD]

See if you can access this EVP file. It was taken at a very spooky haunted location just moments ago. :-)

http://www.mysharefile.com/d/6171861/1156796750/evp1.wav

[Skeptic Guy]

See if you can access this EVP file. It was taken at a very spooky haunted location just moments ago. :-)

http://www.mysharefile.com/d/6171861/1156796750/evp1.wav

Aaaahhhh, I am freaked out man! Where did you get that?!!! :D

It sounds better than anything else they provide. You can hear the words on yours or at least some of them. What were you saying? The same as above?

[fuelair]

I still want to know what the TAPS folks are measuring and how they think these are ghosts.

EM fields?

Temperature changes?

Who said these were ghosts?

I love watching Ghost Plumbers... they're really good for a laugh. Ppppppppppsh.... did you hear it? Ppppppppppsh... there it was again (pure static sound) Ppppppppsh... Wow, that's proof positive ghosts are real.

I believe they have a device that measures audience and sponsor dollars - I'm not sure of the total beckground but the audience part was initially developed by a gentleman named Neilson.

[CLD]

aaahhhh, I am freaked out man! Where did you get that?!!!

It sounds better than anything else they provide. You can hear the words on yours or at least some of them. What were you saying? The same as above?

Skeptic Guy, yes I made it myself. It says what I suggested it say in an earlier post. If you submit it to the TAPS kids, you must keep me informed, LOL....

[Smart_Cookie]

CLD - I just played your file for my significant other - who had no idea what it was supposed to say. His interpretation:

"soup sure tastes good now"

Spooky, huh??
:D

[CLD]

"soup sure tastes good now"

I can assure you, the supernatural spook is NOT saying that! Remember, the voice is coming from the afterlife, so some distortion will occur. ;)

[Skeptic Guy]

I can assure you, the supernatural spook is NOT saying that! Remember, the voice is coming from the afterlife, so some distortion will occur. ;)

Ok, I think I'll do it. I have to go log into TAPS anyway and I am sure I am going to get some interesting comments.

[CLD]

Ok, I think I'll do it. I have to go log into TAPS anyway and I am sure I am going to get some interesting comments.


Remember, I am banned from that board via IP, so I can't watch. Can you please cut and past and post the good stuff here? Also whatever story you attach to the EVP.

[Skeptic Guy]

I just posted this and will go back in a bit with your "EVP" and ask them to analyze it.

From "Joseph":

Many researches have already proved that recording on tape or digital voice recorders have goten results, and that it didn't really matter if there was a microphone or not. A lot of people prefer to use microphones for obvious reasons, though. I don't beleive all the questions will be put to rest, ever. But, I have picked up EMF fluctuations at the same time I picked up an EVP, and other times I didn't, so it can still go either way. But, I agree with rjisinspired. I think if you really want to attack EVP like a true scientis, you should try at least a couple times. Several of my friends are skeptics, and one of them was turned to beleiver when he picked up an EVP.

My response:

Sounds good. Do you have some of the studies and the names of the researchers that you can give me? A lot of times when addressing pseudoscientific claims it is difficult to put names to the researchers making the claims and details to the data. Someone will begin with "many researchers have studied this" without really verifying it and it just keeps getting repeated until eventually it achieves moral authority among those who want to believe.

And I understand the confusion, I do, its just that many people don't understand the scientific process. I blame our education system, but that is a whole other thread. First we have to have some sort of evidence of something occuring in the natural world. Then you develop a hypothesis that would explain that observation. Then you design an experiment that would test your hypothesis. If your hypothesis held up after your testing (experiments), and those tests would have to be well designed, double blinded, etc. then you would submit that data to the scientific community for peer review and replication. Only after it stood up to the peer review process and was replicated, can you truly state that something is scientifically proven.

Unfortunately, none of that has been done in regards to EVP, or for that matter EMF as related to "ghosts", but let's stick with one topic at a time. We have enough on our plate! I contend that as of yet there has been no evidence that EVPs exist. I have not seen any evidence written up in any of the mainstream scientific journals nor have I heard anything anywhere that remotely sounds like an "other-worldly" voice captured on any recording medium.

That is why I would propose a double blinded test with a sampling of "verified" EVPs (I wouldn't want it claimed that there was nothing on them), each EVP would be labeled only with a number by an unenvolved party, and then those EVPs would be given to a group of listeners made up of both "believers" and "non-believers" (so that there would be some filtering of any potential bias). We could then see if there was definitive proof of understanable voices on the tape. It is my contention that there would be no statistically significant agreement among the listeners. However, if there were, then we could go to the next steps.

So what do you think, could we try? It would be very exciting.

[Skeptic Guy]

I'll let you know what kind of response I get.

After posting my last message, I thought it would be a better idea if I started the ball rolling. I found an "evp" online that is claimed to have a voice saying a short phrase. I hope it is one that no one on this site has heard so that no one has any foreknowledge of what it says. It has been been indicated to contain what the poster claims to be a voice though I cannot hear what he says is recorded there. But I do know what is claimed to be recorded.

Can you please listen to the EVP and let me know if you hear anything? I would like to get a few people's input (say around five people?) so that I can get some agreement.

http://www.mysharefile.com/d/6171861/1156796750/evp1.wav

I have never tried to imbed a url on this forum, so let me know if it works.

[CLD]

Regarding "Joseph's" quote....

Personally, I think 'ghost hunting' is more of a pose than anything. Their method is to go somewhere, get any results at all (a meter wiggles, noise on the recorder, temp difference of 3 degrees), and call it "anomalous". That's not science, that's wishful thinking.

[Miss Whiplash]

"Anomalous" They really love to use that word.

[Skeptic Guy]

Copied from the TAPS site after a poster indicated that her 2-year old child had an imaginary "monkey" friend. The "spooky" thing is that the previous owner of their house raised monkeys for the circus! Wait, it gets better... a few of them may have died in the house!

I was pleasantly surprised when the first responder chalked it up to the imagination of a 2-year old and that child overhearing the adults talking about the man who raised monkeys.

Then someone posted this:


I wouldnt dismiss the posability of your son being able to see these monkeys that might have passed away in your home. I believe animals as well as humans come back in spirit form. After my dog died my parents and i would be sitting in the dining room during dinner and hear the tapping of the dogs nails on our hard wood floor and sounding like a dog was going up and down the stairs.

My head hurts...

[RemieV]

Oh dear, yes, the TAPS boards can get a little weird. In fact, on the Sci Fi channel's Ghost Hunters board, people often type about the weirdos from the TAPS board.

The double blind test wouldn't work, unfortunately, unless no one was allowed to answer in the thread and everyone responded via PM. The second one person puts what they think they hear, everyone else is going to follow with the same thing.

[Skeptic Guy]

Oh dear, yes, the TAPS boards can get a little weird. In fact, on the Sci Fi channel's Ghost Hunters board, people often type about the weirdos from the TAPS board.

The double blind test wouldn't work, unfortunately, unless no one was allowed to answer in the thread and everyone responded via PM. The second one person puts what they think they hear, everyone else is going to follow with the same thing.

Thanks for that! I forgot about it. I did post the EVP that CLD gave me but just added a statement that they are to PM me with their responses.

I was just told that EVPs are not repeatable which causes trouble with the "mainstream scientists." No kidding!

[Miss Whiplash]

I read one thread tonight about money appearing to a woman. She would do laundry and find money in the clothes.

Gee...all this time I had no idea that was supernatural!

I wanted to post about finding a money tree in the woods and see if anyone else had that experience. :cool:

[RemieV]

One time I got really drunk in a bar and went home that night to discover three hundred dollars that absolutely wasn't mine in my pocket. I called the bar and asked if they were missing money and they weren't. I called the cops and asked if anything had been reported stolen and it wasn't. I held onto the money for three weeks and called the bar repeatedly to find out if anyone had ever come looking for it. They hadn't. The only explanation I could come up with was picking up my change for a drink, and accidentally picking up someone else's money. I didn't really talk to anyone that night, and still have no idea how it got there....

I guess it was ghosts. Neat.

[CLD]

The "I NEED HELP" section of TAPS 18+ is overrun by demon-obsessed religious extremists, Katrina refugees, and military wives. It's a deadly combination. They're ALL under stress, and they all work together to amplify shared delusions. The wives see shadows, the refugees feel presences and the religious nutcases prescribe biblical incantations.

[Skeptic Guy]

The "I NEED HELP" section of TAPS 18+ is overrun by demon-obsessed religious extremists, Katrina refugees, and military wives. It's a deadly combination. They're ALL under stress, and they all work together to amplify shared delusions. The wives see shadows, the refugees feel presences and the religious nutcases prescribe biblical incantations.

I am going to go over the 18+ section. Sounds like it could be interesting. It is very interesting how they feed off one another. I can understand how the military wives and Katrina refugees can get that way. And there are the demon nutcases there to feed off of it.

[Miss Whiplash]

Good luck on the 18+ forum. Those are the really scary nutcases.

[CLD]

Yes good luck on 18+. James Randi himself has said he would not go near that forum with an asbestos suit. (OK, not true, but it sounds good)

[Skeptic Guy]

Yes good luck on 18+. James Randi himself has said he would not go near that forum with an asbestos suit. (OK, not true, but it sounds good)

If Mr. Randi won't go over, I am not sure what good I'll do.

[J. Arthur Hastur]

I watched one TAPS show and I recall them setting a camera with a flood light in the dusty attic of the 'haunted' house and filming, and lo and behold they filmed, ORBS!

I do recall the humurous situation wherein the 'technician' in the baseball cap and bad teeth argued about how orbs were proof positive of a supernatural presence with the big bald guy who insisted it was dust.

I praying throughout this entire exchange that the big bald guy would just punch in the 'technicians' face. I'm not sure what sort of 'technician' he was supposed to be, but a camera technician that;s never seen dust float in front of a camera lens reflecting light? I'd wonder.

I haven't watched the show since.

[Miss Whiplash]

This is a good example of a typical TAPS 18+ exchange. The ranting is from a poster called Briar:

Quote from: garagedragon on Today at 11:26:02 AM
Perhaps posters should step back and think of realistic explainations.

Perhaps you should just sod off, mate. I already said I was a skeptic before. I would have been with you up until a few months ago. I'm 47, and don't need some wee heckler who's never experienced what I have telling me what's real and what's not.


One person makes a suggestion. As it's not supernatural, the "beleivers" go into a feeding frenzy.

[CLD]

There's a lot of delusions and proseletyzing going on in TAPS 18+. For example, that "Briar" guy who told garagedragon to sod off was never a skeptic. If you look at his first post, he tells a nutty story about being "sensitive" to spooky places since he was a kid, culminating with the appearance of a headless ghost at his sister's house. The man is potty. He's the one pushing exorcism to all who'll listen.

[Skeptic Guy]

This is a quote from rjisinspired on TAMS after I indicated that I was not interested in recording my own EVPs as I thought it was a waste of time.

Enable to get an idea on anything, one must try things for themselves. You can't have an objective view without the experience.

The problem with evp is that there doesn't exist repeatability so this will dissatify mainstream science. Although you can have a controlled environment to capture evp; there is no guarantee that you will get the same voice, same character, or a same response every time. Experiements, however, have been performed under extremely tight controls and conditions, yet evps were still evdient. This has all been documented decades ago.

I do agree on the blind testing methods. This is what many of the members of the AAEVP had started not too long ago called the four-cell group. One person acts as the recorder, another as an intermediate, another as the audioperson and the collection of interpretations from others as to the evp. The group can consist of people from close-by or far-abroad, methods are all the same.

I have no idea what the "four-cell" group is but it didn't sound too objective.

Well, I have to disagree with your first statement. It is up to those who make the extraordinary claims to provide the extraordinary evidence. I don't believe in elves either so I am not going to go out chasing them. That may sound harsh but I think it a good example.

There is no such thing as "mainstream science" there is only science, with clearly defined methodologies and processes. It is VERY good at explaining the natural world. If something can't be replicated than it can't be said to exist and that would not satisfy any scientist. When you say that there "is no guarantee that you will get the same voice, same character, or a same response every time," I am not sure what you mean. Does that mean in a specific EVP you can't hear the same voice/character/response across different listeners or do you mean is a specific area you won't pick up the same thing every time you try? In either case, if what you say is true, I am uncertain what your "four-cell" group would hope to accomplish.

I also would like to see the protocol that the four-cell group is following. It is kind of like letting the fox guard the chicken coop by having such an interested party do the study without some dispassionate supervision. In what journal will they publish their findings?

By the way, could you take a listen to the EVP I posted?

I know I could provide a better arguement and if any of you have suggestions, I would not take it amiss.

Here is last response. The comment about "invisible light" makes my head hurt. Since when has light become "invisible"?

Well, guess we can agree to disagree.

What I meant by the variables with evp voices are in receiving the same words, type of voice, and such on direct command.

I'm sure scientists once believed that invisble light was rather radical at first. Evp is like this invisible light situation. Again, I recommend the Spiricom book for a very detailed and scientific approach to communication with unknown voices.

[CLD]

I looked up "spiricom" to see these so-called experiments and their "proof".

http://www.worlditc.org/k_06_spiricom.htm

Good Christ!

These people are BATTY! According to the block diagram, they are transmitting a tone-laden FM signal on the 29 Mhz radio band and receiving it on an FM receiver, then claiming that "deceased individuals" are breaking in on the circuit and speaking to them. The aformentioned deceased individuals spend a lot of time yammering about frequencies and capacitor values.

The 29Mhz FM band is allocated to amateur radio.

What a bloody idiotic circus act!

[Miss Whiplash]

I have no idea how to edit the file, but there are quite a few spy number recordings on this website:

Spy Numbers (http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=10480)

Why not post a clip and see the reaction? The Cherry Ripe file on disc two has enough distortion and wow to sound spooky to someone expecting ghosts.

[Skeptic Guy]

I have no idea how to edit the file, but there are quite a few spy number recordings on this website:

Spy Numbers (http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=10480)

Why not post a clip and see the reaction? The Cherry Ripe file on disc two has enough distortion and wow to sound spooky to someone expecting ghosts.

Were you the Vampire that put in the picture of the Devil Monkey? If so, brilliant!

[CLD]

I'm sure scientists once believed that invisble light was rather radical at first. Evp is like this invisible light situation.

My arse on a bandbox. :faint:

[Miss Whiplash]

Were you the Vampire that put in the picture of the Devil Monkey? If so, brilliant!

:D I confess- I did it! :D

[Skeptic Guy]

CLD, I got my first and to date only response to your "EVP"

Skeptic Guy, that was an interesting recording. I will tell you exaclty (sic) what went through my mind:

1. Since you are a skeptic, I am wondering if you actually did EVP work or if you created this yourself...
2. I did hear "You can do this..." or something similar to that. And it does seem there is an echo to it.
3. There was a metallic hiss, so I think there was some type of editing done on it.
4. I do see both sides to the story, but I am not really sure what EVPs are myself- I don't know if they are spirits, aliens, our own mind having influence on an object, ect...

Overall, I want to know what you did. That was definately (sic) interesting.



It seems to suspect that it may not be a "legitimate EVP".


And my response... and I do not feel that I lied in any way, but let me know otherwise. How do we say "obfuscate"?

Well, you get an F on "able to follow directions". You were supposed to PM me with your answer so no one else got the information. Now I can imagine everyone will hear "you can do this".

Here are your answsers though.

1) I neither do EVP work nor did I create this myself. I don't believe in them but I did find this one online in what I hope was a remote site and thought it was a good example.

2) That is not what it is "supposed to say" but goodness knows you could probably read anything into it. As far as I have been told there was no echo introduced into the recording. I thought it sounded a little that way but attributed it to its surroundings. I don't think it would give much away to say it was done inside so there could be some reflected sound.

3) I don't hear a metalic hiss. The person capturing the EVP did not do any editing or claims not to have. This is not scientific. In any event, having taught audio production once a long time ago, I can tell you that audio editing does NOT introduce a metalic hiss.

4) I know what EVPs are but there is nothing spiritual about them.

Anything that sounds completely different depending on who is listening to it, is not a valuable piece of evidence. EVPs should be discarded as anything more than pattern hunting.

[Skeptic Guy]

:D I confess- I did it! :D

It made me laugh! I responded but I can't wait to see if anyone else does.

[Skeptic Guy]

Aaarrrgghhh, I lost Joseph. I had him in my fingers, he was wavering, he saw the light (invisible or otherwise), but he fell for the dark side.

Sorry about that. I do think that blind test was cool. I do like your point, though- let other people decide for me. But with that in mind, believers will believe and skeptics will not. That's the way it has been and that is the way it will be.

But how true! "Believers will believe and skeptics will not." Ain't that a kick in the arse?

[Miss Whiplash]

His reply gave me a headache!

[CLD]

What you hear on an "EVP" depends wholly on state of mind, how you feel at the time, biases, preconditioning, etc. Bottom line, it's highly subjective. The eqivalent of looking at clouds and seeing shapes in them. But you will never convince these folks otherwise. They WANT to believe.

I once made the mistake of answering some TAPS 18+ posts from people who sounded reasonably sane and desperate to figure out the cause of shadows and noises in their homes, i.e. "please help me explain this" etc. They quickly rejected all reasonable explanations and actually got ANGRY at me for introducing a critical thinking process.

Same with the psuedo-researchers. They don't WANT to entertain non-paranormal explanations. No matter how reasonable and intelligent they may appear, you will hit a brick wall sooner or later.

Arguing with them is futile. But sometimes, you just gotta.

PS: Skeptic Guy, you lied. My EVP was heavily edited using multi-layer tracks, pitch control, time shifting, white noise, etc.

[Skeptic Guy]

I received this from "joseph" as a PM. Quatum Mechanics...sigh...

I will never give up EVPs because I do not know what they are. If you can tell me what they are then I will keep that in mind and then just continue capturing them. Remember, science has quantum mechanics, which allows for anything, even the most redicuous thoughts.

But then I received this from him...a small victory...

I will continue to post possible EVPs on this forum, but in the future, I will give all information except what I think I hear.

[Skeptic Guy]

What you hear on an "EVP" depends wholly on state of mind, how you feel at the time, biases, preconditioning, etc. Bottom line, it's highly subjective. The eqivalent of looking at clouds and seeing shapes in them. But you will never convince these folks otherwise. They WANT to believe.

I once made the mistake of answering some TAPS 18+ posts from people who sounded reasonably sane and desperate to figure out the cause of shadows and noises in their homes, i.e. "please help me explain this" etc. They quickly rejected all reasonable explanations and actually got ANGRY at me for introducing a critical thinking process.

Same with the psuedo-researchers. They don't WANT to entertain non-paranormal explanations. No matter how reasonable and intelligent they may appear, you will hit a brick wall sooner or later.

Arguing with them is futile. But sometimes, you just gotta.

PS: Skeptic Guy, you lied. My EVP was heavily edited using multi-layer tracks, pitch control, time shifting, white noise, etc.

Darn, I really didn't want to do that...but I did say "as far as I have been told"...until now...maybe I need to come clean...

[CLD]

Quatum mechanics?

Yes, it's the old argument, "science doesn't know everything, so I will continue to believe my deceased Uncle Ned is communicating to me through my toaster over".

Sigh.

[RemieV]

Aaarrrgghhh, I lost Joseph. I had him in my fingers, he was wavering, he saw the light (invisible or otherwise), but he fell for the dark side.



But how true! "Believers will believe and skeptics will not." Ain't that a kick in the arse?

That quote about "believers will believe and skeptics will not" was said on an episode of "Ghost Hunters" by Jason Hawes (the founder).

[RemieV]

What you hear on an "EVP" depends wholly on state of mind, how you feel at the time, biases, preconditioning, etc. Bottom line, it's highly subjective. The eqivalent of looking at clouds and seeing shapes in them. But you will never convince these folks otherwise. They WANT to believe.

I once made the mistake of answering some TAPS 18+ posts from people who sounded reasonably sane and desperate to figure out the cause of shadows and noises in their homes, i.e. "please help me explain this" etc. They quickly rejected all reasonable explanations and actually got ANGRY at me for introducing a critical thinking process.



I did that for a while too... when people talked about how they were skeptical but had seen a shadow figure and couldn't explain it, I asked for diagrams and/or photos of their homes to see if I could find a cause. Never got a kind response.

[Skeptic Guy]

That quote about "believers will believe and skeptics will not" was said on an episode of "Ghost Hunters" by Jason Hawes (the founder).

I thought I was making progress with him.

Joseph did email me a PM saying that in the future when he posts EVPs he'll do so without stating what he thinks they say. I in turn suggested that he ask them to PM their responses so as not to suggest any particular interpretation, thanks to RemieV for that suggestion.

[RemieV]

You're quite welcome :)

If they had mod powers, or could ask a mod, I would recommend that they actually lock the thread. Because SOMEONE is going to skim the post and and reply in the thread anyway.

[Skeptic Guy]

I am depressed. I looked through the TAPS web site and saw all the discussion on Orbs, EVPs, EMFs, shadows...and I realize that there is nothing we can do. They WANT to believe this stuff and no matter how rational of an explanation you come up with, it is treated as being "closed minded". They are experienced paranormal researchers, right? They know the difference between a real orb and a dust mote? There are some things that science cannot explain...

Is it worth it?

[RemieV]

Yes, it's worth it. Presenting ideas is always worth it. Maybe in the future they will think back to it.

[Skeptic Guy]

Yes, it's worth it. Presenting ideas is always worth it. Maybe in the future they will think back to it.

Mam, yes, Mam...put me in again, coach, I can do it!

[CLD]

Mam, yes, Mam...put me in again, coach, I can do it!


Only the strongest skeptic can survive the dreaded 18+

http://taps18forum.com/

[Skeptic Guy]

Oh, boy, I just got on the 18+ board and participated in a discussion in which someone asked on the safest way to dispose of their Ouija board. They didn't want to leave "a door open" for demons to escape...

There were a couple of people who tried to tell him that it is just a game and one person even mentioned the ideometer effect, but most of them said to be very careful, Ouija boards are dangerous, and should come with a health warning. I put my two cents in, but I am sure it won't do any good.

Someone quoted my post and put in a smilie holding a thing of popcorn and a sign that said Jerry! Jerry!...not sure what that means but I am sure it wasn't supportive.

I have to be strong...

[Miss Whiplash]

Oh, boy, I just got on the 18+ board and participated in a discussion in which someone asked on the safest way to dispose of their Ouija board. They didn't want to leave "a door open" for demons to escape...

There were a couple of people who tried to tell him that it is just a game and one person even mentioned the ideometer effect, but most of them said to be very careful, Ouija boards are dangerous, and should come with a health warning. I put my two cents in, but I am sure it won't do any good.

Someone quoted my post and put in a smilie holding a thing of popcorn and a sign that said Jerry! Jerry!...not sure what that means but I am sure it wasn't supportive.

I have to be strong...

Someone on one of the TAPS boards obviously has a perforated ulcer, but is saying whoopsing blood is a sign of psychic contact. I wonder if the person will be alive much longer.


The "Jerry" thing is a reference to Jerry Springer. I guess it's an invite for people to start fighting.

[Skeptic Guy]

Someone on one of the TAPS boards obviously has a perforated ulcer, but is saying whoopsing blood is a sign of psychic contact. I wonder if the person will be alive much longer.


The "Jerry" thing is a reference to Jerry Springer. I guess it's an invite for people to start fighting.

Well, let the games begin. They'll have to get together some bouncers to hold me back, cause I'll jump ugly with them cheatin' and lyin' woos! I bet the kid isn't even mine! Where's the DNA evidence? Oh, that's right, they don't need evidence.

[Miss Whiplash]

You should post in the "I Need Help" section. Since I was banned, they think all new skeptical posters are me.

[CLD]

Skeptic Guy....

I have an experiment for the EVP'ers, but they're not gonna like it.

Use whatever battery operated recorder you normally use. Built in mike or external mike, doesn't matter. Turn the recorder on, then enclose it in a small Pelican (tm) case. Then enclose the smaller Pelican case in a larger Pelican case. Now...chant, call the spirits, ask ghosts to speak, pray to Beelzebub, move about in a haunted location, do whatever it is you do to get EVP's. Since ghosts generate electric or magnetic fields to produce EVP's, they should have no problem transmitting through the plastic Pelican cases and onto the recorder's media.

http://www.pelican-cases.com/images/pel-1120.gif

I guarantee (except for stray RF) this method will be found to produce NO "EVP"'s!!!!!!

[Miss Whiplash]

I dont think this reply in the EVP thread will be taken seriously but here goes:

Quote from: rjisinspired on Today at 04:10:20 PM
Yes there is invisible light, or electromagnetic radiation both on the long and short ends which aren't visible to human sight. Visible light isn't generally thought of as electromagnetic radiation but scientificially it is.

Can't feel it, nor touch it, but it exists. Same thing with evp.


I agree with Skeptic Guy.

Light, electricity and magnetic fields are all the same thing. Invisable vs. visable pertains only to human perception.
All "light" has the same properties. We can only see between a very small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, 400-800nm.

FYI: http://www.astronomynotes.com/light/s3.htm

What is the wavelength of an EVP? Within what part of the spectrum does it exist?

[Achán hiNidráne]

Yes, it's worth it. Presenting ideas is always worth it. Maybe in the future they will think back to it.

Not as long as they keep getting a big, fat check from the SciFi Channel.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Not as long as they keep getting a big, fat check from the SciFi Channel.


Whoops! You're talking about the forums. For a minute I thought you were talking about the "plumbers."

[Skeptic Guy]

You should post in the "I Need Help" section. Since I was banned, they think all new skeptical posters are me.

When did you get banned? Didn't you just post that Devil Monkey thing?

[Miss Whiplash]

When did you get banned? Didn't you just post that Devil Monkey thing?

I was banned on the 18+ Forum. I'm still on the main forum.

Some people are sending me posts from the "I Need Help" thread on the 18+ because the posts and accusations are really, really weird.

[Skeptic Guy]

I may get banned sooner than I thought...


Quote from: ncarnate78 on Yesterday at 09:44:27 PM
Being a sm@rt@$$ myself, as well as being one o'those types who uses logic and reasoning before spiritualism and hope, I welcome the fact that you are a skeptic, but going through the vast majority of your posts, you seem to be taking the "If I (personally) don't see it, it can't be true" approach. That's not the scientific approach to things anymore than is the word of the "everything is supernatural" believer. Science involves making desicions based on mulitiple examples producing the same (or at least very similar) results.

Again, I understand a true skeptic is not the same thing as an non-believer, so I ask you- if you truely are a skeptic as opposed to a complete non-believer, take other people's thoughts into consideration, the same as you would someone with YOUR point of view, before you pass judgement.

I'm not trying to yell at you or talk down to you, just so you know. It's meant as some friendly thoughts from someone who believes that TRUE skeptics provide a welcome set of checks and balances.

[MY RESPONSE]

No of course you aren't trying to yell or talk down to me....

I am taking the approach that if science doesn't see it, it doesn't exist. I have nothing to do with it. I am a skeptic and a follower of science. The fact is that there is a lot of pseudoscience going on here and no critical thinking. I am not passing judgement on you or anyone else.

All I am asking and no one can explain a) how a spirit is supposed to generate electrical or magnetic fields that can record sounds (voices specifically that in most cases are generated by the larynx), b) how that electric or magnetic field can be modulated to produce the proper encoding on the recording device that it can use to playback the sound, c) how you can hear anything intelligable from the recorded static, ambient noice and spurious sounds that are labeled EVP.

If only someone could provide valid scientific reasoning to answer just one of the above, I would be more willing to see "the other side". Pardon the pun.

This is true science, not the Ghost Buster, Scooby Doo, hunting of the TV.

I do think it is very interesting that even using the cues given at the head of this thread, there are many different interpretations of what this "EVP" is supposed to say. Whether there are only seven posts or one hundred, you will not get a consensus, and that is oh so telling.

[CLD]

The "I Need Help" section would be great entertainment if it were not for the fact that these are real people with serious delusions. A few I've been following:

-The spitting-up-blood woman who claims she's "a high functioning psychic".

-The woman who was in a church when she heard the organist hit a middle C note and experienced a wrenching physical shock immediately followed by the apparition of a young boy pointing at her.

-The Scottish fellow who sees a ghost wandering his sister's home -- it's head half-rotted away. (He favors exorcism)

-The woman in a new home alone who felt "a man" slap her on the bum as she bent to pick up the dustpan. (She could tell it was a man by the way he swatted her)


*PS: Skeptic Guy, I am able to now read the posts in the regular (non-18+) TAPS forums. I saw your response to the "battlefield EVP" that (I think) Joseph presented. (This was taken in a battlefield and seems to be a male with a British accent saying "Lord, I see fate, I see down there, coming out.")

The audio sounds suspiciously like a scene from a movie on tape or DVD. You must realize that MANY of the posters on that forum are teens and ghost nuts seeking attention. I would not believe ANY story they tell you about where a sound clip came from.

[Skeptic Guy]

The "I Need Help" section would be great entertainment if it were not for the fact that these are real people with serious delusions. A few I've been following:

-The spitting-up-blood woman who claims she's "a high functioning psychic".

-The woman who was in a church when she heard the organist hit a middle C note and experienced a wrenching physical shock immediately followed by the apparition of a young boy pointing at her.

-The Scottish fellow who sees a ghost wandering his sister's home -- it's head half-rotted away. (He favors exorcism)

-The woman in a new home alone who felt "a man" slap her on the bum as she bent to pick up the dustpan. (She could tell it was a man by the way he swatted her)


*PS: Skeptic Guy, I am able to now read the posts in the regular (non-18+) TAPS forums. I saw your response to the "battlefield EVP" that (I think) Joseph presented. (This was taken in a battlefield and seems to be a male with a British accent saying "Lord, I see fate, I see down there, coming out.")

The audio sounds suspiciously like a scene from a movie on tape or DVD. You must realize that MANY of the posters on that forum are teens and ghost nuts seeking attention. I would not believe ANY story they tell you about where a sound clip came from.

I did not think of that. You might be right. Joseph did try to post another EVP without saying what he thought it said and asked people to send him a PM with their thoughts. However, the first poster just put down what she thought it said right in the thread.

I told him it was a good try...

Tomorrow, I go to the 18+ "I Need Help Forum".

[RemieV]

Skeptic Guy, you may explain to them exactly what anecdotal evidence is and how a skeptic would view their own personal experience as being anecdotal evidence AS WELL. You aren't saying that their experiences didn't happen or that you yourself have not had a "paranormal" experience - just that an anecdote doesn't count as evidence of the paranormal. Emphasize that, and you might get a slightly better response. (I'm getting fairly used to speaking with TAPS fans.)

Also, the ban policy on the 18+ forum is a little stricter than on the regular forum. So watch your step at first if you don't want to be banned quickly.

The best way of explaining that I've come up with so far is that as long as they cannot come up with a reason why EVPs happen or what, exactly, a ghost is composed of (which should be pointed out as impossible, no matter what speculation has taken place) or ANYTHING ELSE that would predict a future trend (as a theory would) the very idea of ghosts remains in the hypothesis stage. That means no matter how much evidence they gather it is worthless in the eyes of science because no experiment has ever took place to test any theory there might be. They can have crazy readings on trifield meters and whatnot, and their personal experiences can even be true, but since no one has ever shown evidence that ghosts exist at all whatever readings or video or audio they collect is NOT EVIDENCE. Explain the scientific method if need be. But yes, welcome to the rough road :)

[CLD]

"Tesla and Edison experimented with the paranormal"

"Scientists have been investigating EVP's in the lab for years"

"Science can't explain everything, so that means ghosts may exist"

"Quantum physics proves the existence of the paranormal"

"Houdini was never able to prove Psychic X was a fraud"

"Skeptics don't believe anything. You've got to believe in SOMETHING"

I hate to sound so horribly cynical, but the explanations on that board reflect what I term "trailer park science" i.e. rumor and hearsay picked up from the pages of the National Enquirer and Weekly World News.

[Skeptic Guy]

Skeptic Guy, you may explain to them exactly what anecdotal evidence is and how a skeptic would view their own personal experience as being anecdotal evidence AS WELL. You aren't saying that their experiences didn't happen or that you yourself have not had a "paranormal" experience - just that an anecdote doesn't count as evidence of the paranormal. Emphasize that, and you might get a slightly better response. (I'm getting fairly used to speaking with TAPS fans.)

Also, the ban policy on the 18+ forum is a little stricter than on the regular forum. So watch your step at first if you don't want to be banned quickly.

The best way of explaining that I've come up with so far is that as long as they cannot come up with a reason why EVPs happen or what, exactly, a ghost is composed of (which should be pointed out as impossible, no matter what speculation has taken place) or ANYTHING ELSE that would predict a future trend (as a theory would) the very idea of ghosts remains in the hypothesis stage. That means no matter how much evidence they gather it is worthless in the eyes of science because no experiment has ever took place to test any theory there might be. They can have crazy readings on trifield meters and whatnot, and their personal experiences can even be true, but since no one has ever shown evidence that ghosts exist at all whatever readings or video or audio they collect is NOT EVIDENCE. Explain the scientific method if need be. But yes, welcome to the rough road :)

Thank you for this. I am kind of new to this and it is helpful to have advice from those that have had more experience with these kinds of discussions. I'll learn more so that I can communicate with them better in the future...as long as I don't have to buy a Ouija board to do so.

Work is taking up my time today, so I'll go back to the board later. I am sure I will enjoy it.

[CLD]

Skeptic Guy,

You asked him what part of the electromagnetic spectrum EVP's were in, and his response is about AUDIO frequencies.

He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Range of* evps can be from 100hz and under to well over 1Khz.* There are no fundamental frequencies and very limited formant patterns, suggestive of lacking a voicebox.* The closest theory of providing a voicebox, to an unknown voice, would be by ecto.*

I've read from somewhere, can't remember where, that evps only occur at or below 300hz, this is not true.* If this was the case then all you would need is a simple lowpass filter to get at the voice and be done with it.

Evps can be measured and classified and many sensitives can also feel them.* The main question is "where"are these voices originating from?* Before anyone says radio interference, RF doesn't respond to questions, nor will it speak your name to you.* RF theory was thrown out from an experiemnt done at the Pyes Record Industry back in 1971 under tight supervision and control.* All RF was shielded out and evp voices still made it to tapes.* People involved were electrical egineers, doctors, independent scientists and of course the record industry staff.

Apophenia (hearing something substantial from noise, or chaos) is definitely not evp and can be easily disregarded.* This type of thing is continuous through and downright annoying.* Some people will get headaches and/or feel nauseous in a short time after listening.* Times like these it is recommended to take a break and come back to the project later on.

[Miss Whiplash]

What is the "ecto" he's babbling about?

[CLD]

Ectoplasm. Otherwise known as cheesecloth in spirit photos of the 1900's.

I checked out the "Pye" experiment he refers to on the web. The only reference to it is on a couple of woo sites. Nothing from the BBC who was said to have participated. Nothing from the British Phonographic Industry (BPI). No substantiated data whatsoever, just apocryphal references and carefully edited quotations. Pure woo.


*PS: since everyone is using old photos of themselves as avatars I thought I'd put my oar in the water. (Skeptic Guy, is your avatar George Bernard Shaw? Everytime I see it I WANT TO SPEAK LOUDLY SINCE A MAN YOUR AGE IS PROBABLY HARD OF HEARING)

[Skeptic Guy]

Ectoplasm. Otherwise known as cheesecloth in spirit photos of the 1900's.

I checked out the "Pye" experiment he refers to on the web. The only reference to it is on a couple of woo sites. Nothing from the BBC who was said to have participated. Nothing from the British Phonographic Industry (BPI). No substantiated data whatsoever, just apocryphal references and carefully edited quotations. Pure woo.


*PS: since everyone is using old photos of themselves as avatars I thought I'd put my oar in the water. (Skeptic Guy, is your avatar George Bernard Shaw? Everytime I see it I WANT TO SPEAK LOUDLY SINCE A MAN YOUR AGE IS PROBABLY HARD OF HEARING)

Actually, its supposed to be Charles Darwin. I got it from a Darwin site so I hope it is right.

And I'll have you know am much younger than the picture, sonny!


And is that a picture of Vampire or a young Janet Leigh?

[Miss Whiplash]

Actually, its supposed to be Charles Darwin. I got it from a Darwin site so I hope it is right.

And I'll have you know am much younger than the picture, sonny!


And is that a picture of Vampire or a young Janet Leigh?

Neither. It's a young Jean Seberg (http://www.saintjean.co.uk/portrait.htm). I like to delude myself and think I still look like her!

I guessed your avatar was Charles Darwin!

[seayakin]

I like to watch the show and I almost spilled my beer laughing in the last episode of last season when the one "technician" was talking about how quarts stored memories and there was lots of quartz in the mountains so it might explain the strange happenings at the "shining" hotel (forget the name).

Regarding EVP, I was wondering if there could be some kind of voice recognition software that could be written to remove the human bias and see if it picks up anything. I'm assuming it wouldn't but it would be a way to remove human bias and suggestion.

On another note, I live in Rhode Island and I ran into one of the plumbers in the pet store. I seriously considered talking to him but he was with his kids buying a bird cage and didn't feel like annoying him.

[Plasmadog]

Regarding EVP, I was wondering if there could be some kind of voice recognition software that could be written to remove the human bias and see if it picks up anything. I'm assuming it wouldn't but it would be a way to remove human bias and suggestion.
That wouldn't necessarily remove the bias, or at least not all of it, since voice recognition software is designed expressly for the purpose of picking voices out of the input. In other words, there is a built-in assumption that a voice is present in the input. If you turn the input level up far enough, it will try to assemble the static into voices, just as people do.

But even if that could be worked around, it would probably just make the believers even more convinced, because one thing it would remove is the human variability. It would be (or should be, if it is working correctly) deterministic, so a given input should always give the same output. Can you imagine what would happen if the EVP believers could have that sort of repeatibility?

[Skeptic Guy]

Neither. It's a young Jean Seberg (http://www.saintjean.co.uk/portrait.htm). I like to delude myself and think I still look like her!

I guessed your avatar was Charles Darwin!

Yeah, it's Chuck...I am thinking of trying to design one as a super hero. You know, SKEPTIC GUY, Defender of the Skeptical Way...or something like that. If only I was artistic.

I never heard of Jean Seberg. A beautiful woman. Good choice.

[CLD]

Plasmadog, the TAPS kids enjoy the EVP thing like a game of "shapes in the clouds". Someone posts an audio file and everyone takes turns opining what they "hear". (Somehow, this is considered "scientific" and an essential part of the "research" they are doing) So a machine would take the fun out of it for them.

Skeptic Guy, maybe you could re-work the words to the theme from "Family Guy".

http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/7763/skepwz7.jpg

It seems today that all you see
Is supernatural movies and woo on TV
But where are those good scientific values
On which we use to rely?

Lucky there's a Skeptical Guy
Lucky there's a man who, positively can do
All the things that make woos ***** cry
He's our Skeptical Guy!

[Skeptic Guy]

My latest entry -

First his post -

Reply #17 on: Today at 11:01:50 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: ncarnate78 on Today at 08:33:36 PM
You misunderstand me slightly...we know that mutations cause cancer, but there is no definite to it. Some people end up with cancer with no discernable reasoning behind it. As for a cure, there is none. There ARE treatments, but treatments and cures are two seperate things. Ask anyone with cancer, they will tell you there is a world of difference.

As for a measurable standard, I was refering to the supernatural as a whole, not just simply EVP's, but if you want to go just by EVP evidence, you can measure those in the same way you measure anything else audible. Some of the energies radiated by paranormal occurences can and are measured, though the very nature of such occurences make the word "controlled" all but impossible to achieve, the same as with weather occurences for example. As for the results being published and subjected to peer review, yes, they have been, countless times over.

Sorry I haven't been around...today was a b**ch at work.

I'll agree with Vampire on this too. Science does understand what causes cancer. When cells start to reproduce uncontrollably that is cancer and cancer victims either get it from a virus, the environment or because they are genetically predisposed. What we don't know is how to stop the cells from going wild in the first place...yet.

And while we may not have a "cure" for cancer, we understand cancer well enough that we can beat it, some of the time. There is enough knowledge that we have vaccines that prevent cancer, we have chemicals that shrink tumors...radiation, surgery. There is science behind it, schools of medicine, bodies of work.

I have a good friend that is an ovarian cancer survivor (for the past 10 years), she caught it early and modern science saved her life. On the other hand, there are certain cancers we can't beat, especially if they aren't caught early enough. I just said goodbye to a dear friend this week who didn't catch her breast cancer soon enough. And as my friends would tell you, if they could (and no she will not do so through any EVP), that's the world of difference.

But the fact is that cancer if certainly understood very well, to the point that there is a massive body of work describing the various cancers and their treatment. There are theories that describe cancer and predict the course of the disease and what kind of treatment will work or if it will work. Some cancers we can stop and/or reverse. Please, please don't go down the cancer path, I have had my fill with that beast right now.

Now about EVPs -

I think you may misunderstand what we mean by "controlled" in the scientific sense. Here is the definition for experimental control I copied from Wikipedia.

Quote
A controlled experiment generally compares the results obtained from an experimental sample against a control sample, which is practically identical to the experimental sample except for the one aspect whose effect is being tested. A good example would be a drug trial. The sample or group receiving the drug would be the experimental one; and the one receiving the placebo would be the control one.

We don't mean it in the sense of controlling the weather or ghosts, but rather controlling the experiment sufficiently so that it is focused only on the aspect that we are testing. I especially like the example they provide given our discussion. I hesitate to point out that they did not choose one from the EVP studies.

You indicate that we can measure EVPs like we measure anything else audible, but I have been told that EVPs are not audible, at least not until they have been recorded onto a audio recorder. No one hears the "ghostly answers" until they playback the tape or other medium. Also, I have been told that you do not necessarily have to have a microphone to capture these EVPs. Therefore, the EVPs seem to come from some sort of energy that can be captured directly onto the recording medium bypassing any audable frequency. So what part of the electromagnetic spectrum do EVPs come from? If there have been 30 years of study, surely this much has been discovered.

For your convenience, I have included the url for a good site that explains the electromagnetic spectrum in detail.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l1/spectrum_chart.html

As a colleague of mine has pointed out, the problem is actually even more basic, what the EVP community cannot come up with is a reason why EVPs happen or what, exactly, a ghost is composed of (which is impossible, no matter what speculation has taken place) or ANYTHING ELSE that would predict a future trend (as a scientific theory would). The very idea of ghosts remains in the hypothesis stage. That means no matter how much evidence you gather it is worthless in the eyes of science because no experiment has ever taken place to test any theory there might be. You can have readings on tri-field meters and whatnot, and your personal experiences can even be true (and I do believe that most people on this site have truly experienced something they could not explain themselves), but since no one has ever shown evidence that ghosts exist at all whatever readings or video or audio you collect is NOT EVIDENCE.

And yes, I took that last bit from CLD. I hope it is ok.

[Skeptic Guy]

Skeptic Guy,

You asked him what part of the electromagnetic spectrum EVP's were in, and his response is about AUDIO frequencies.

He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

My response -

I would still like to know what part of the electromagnetic spectrum the actual EVP comes from. The frequencies you gave me are for audio and as we all know, you can't hear the EVPs when they originate. So a voicebox ain't in it.

And by "ecto", I imagine you mean "ectoplasm", which has not proved to exist either. Since I don't know what you mean when you say, "The closest theory of providing a voicebox, to an unknown voice, would be by ecto," I ask that you clarify. How do you provide a voicebox to an unknown voice? Does it actually create a larynx?

Assuming that you are referring to ectoplasm, which is about the fourth or fifth hypothesis I heard for what creates EVPs, what part of the spectrum does it fall under? The only "ectoplasm" I have seen is the cheescloth falling out of the nose and mouth of 19th century "mediums", I assume it has changed somewhat over the past 100 years?

[Skeptic Guy]

Plasmadog, the TAPS kids enjoy the EVP thing like a game of "shapes in the clouds". Someone posts an audio file and everyone takes turns opining what they "hear". (Somehow, this is considered "scientific" and an essential part of the "research" they are doing) So a machine would take the fun out of it for them.

Skeptic Guy, maybe you could re-work the words to the theme from "Family Guy".



It seems today that all you see
Is supernatural movies and woo on TV
But where are those good scientific values
On which we use to rely?

Lucky there's a Skeptical Guy
Lucky there's a man who, positively can do
All the things that make woos ***** cry
He's our Skeptical Guy!

Oooh, that is cool! Can I use that picture for my avatar?

[CLD]

Use the avatar and I'll no longer feel I am talking with an ancient. :-)

Skepti-Guy you are very patient with the TAPS folks. I could never be that patient. The "ectoplasmic larynx" idea is ludicrous. We need lungs, air, glottis, lips, and a whole bunch of musclulature to create speech. These must be made from ectoplasm also? Give me a break. They can't seem to answer you as to where EVP's fall within the Electromagnetic Spectrum because they honestly don't know. I can guess an equivocation is forthcoming ("We don't know where psychic vibrations fall on the scale"). Now you've got some people claiming they can hear them without a tape recorder. These people would be the "sensitives" or psychic mediums. You are in deep, deep woo now.

[seayakin]

That wouldn't necessarily remove the bias, or at least not all of it, since voice recognition software is designed expressly for the purpose of picking voices out of the input. In other words, there is a built-in assumption that a voice is present in the input. If you turn the input level up far enough, it will try to assemble the static into voices, just as people do.

But even if that could be worked around, it would probably just make the believers even more convinced, because one thing it would remove is the human variability. It would be (or should be, if it is working correctly) deterministic, so a given input should always give the same output. Can you imagine what would happen if the EVP believers could have that sort of repeatibility?

Yes I see your point. They would make the false conclusion that voice recognition accurately detected a ghosts voice instead of saying there is a voice was detected. I think I read on one skeptic site that someone said there is a possibility that echos from the people doing the detecting may be picking out. I remember one episode when they were in the famous lighthouse in North Carolina and they yelling and talking a lot as they usually do and doing EVP. I wondered how long will a sound wave travel up and down the tube therefore detecting their own voices if they ever actually detect a voice.

[RemieV]

EVP is a difficult argument to take on because of the number of variables when recording in the first place. Such a vast number of things can be confused with EVPs. (I'm talking as though I think there are "real" EVPs, but I don't.) Anyway, to have this argument you might want to try coming at it backward. In these discussions, sometimes it's best to start off admitting the possibility that what they've captured is real. Now, even though their EVP might really be a a dead person's voice, a voice recording is not very definitive evidence because it contains no visual element. So, add in a camcorder, and that gets rid of the possibility of fraud. Now, stopping with the discussion there, another interesting way to go would be the question of why, if both the camcorder and the voice recorder are available to the spirits to communicate, they would not come through on the camcorder. It's important to keep in mind that it's just as much of a voice recorder as a tape recorder. So the first question is why would the spirit pick one and not the other.

[Filippo Lippi]

TAPS = Thick As Pig S...

[CLD]

if both the camcorder and the voice recorder are available to the spirits to communicate, they would not come through on the camcorder. It's important to keep in mind that it's just as much of a voice recorder as a tape recorder. So the first question is why would the spirit pick one and not the other.

I can guess the answer. "The spirit was nearer to the tape recorder at that moment". The other answer you'll get is that EVP's are picked up by camcorders, and the researchers don't bother with them because they have the tape recordings. (Of course they're not the SAME evp's...but that doesn't seem to matter...as long as you get SOMETHING weird on ANY medium, it's evidence of a ghost!)

[Skeptic Guy]

Use the avatar and I'll no longer feel I am talking with an ancient. :-)

Skepti-Guy you are very patient with the TAPS folks. I could never be that patient. The "ectoplasmic larynx" idea is ludicrous. We need lungs, air, glottis, lips, and a whole bunch of musclulature to create speech. These must be made from ectoplasm also? Give me a break. They can't seem to answer you as to where EVP's fall within the Electromagnetic Spectrum because they honestly don't know. I can guess an equivocation is forthcoming ("We don't know where psychic vibrations fall on the scale"). Now you've got some people claiming they can hear them without a tape recorder. These people would be the "sensitives" or psychic mediums. You are in deep, deep woo now.


I had to edit my response a couple of times last night to tone it down. I don't know why as it only strings out my pain but in my mind's eye I picture one of them saying (other than Vampire!), "You know, he's right! This crap is all BS. I am going off to study medicine now." But that won't ever happen. In any event, that cancer stuff pi**ed me off. I just was at a funeral of a good friend of mine on Tuesday and I just didn't want him going down that path with his woo.

Thanks for pointing out the lips, palate, teeth, etc. I forget just how wrong this stuff is on such a basic level. You need to explain it to such detail.

EDIT - And thanks for the avatar!

[Miss Whiplash]

The cancer post was too much. Do they not teach biology in schools any more? Cancer and errors in DNA replication is usually discussed when cell division is studied. Then again, this is coming from a board where one poster stated "genetics has nothing to do with biology." :boggled:

[CLD]

...in my mind's eye I picture one of them saying, "You know, he's right! This crap is all BS. I am going off to study medicine now." But that won't ever happen.

There was a thread on their 18+ board I was reading, called "Is What We Do Real???". The OP had seen an episode of Penn & Teller's Showtime series B***S***, where the duo debunked Ghost Hunting by following a group around and commenting on their faux pas. Rational commentary from a Nobel Prize Winning physicist was included. Penn's incisive and extremely blunt logic (not to mention the fact that he is generally regarded as an unpretentious "cool guy") was causing the OP to have serious doubts about his vocation. Slowly, the others in the thread brought him back to the faith. They pointed out that the ghost hunting group in question were seen hunting during the daytime. This was taken as a sign that they were not serious, as real paranormal investigators "know" that ghosts appear only at night and in darkness. The Nobel Prize winning physicist was pronounced "closed minded". They also reminded the OP that in their own investigations they were consistently getting "evidence" and the fact that they get evidence proves that what they are doing is real. Finally they attacked Penn himself, saying he was a big blowhard. That pretty much got the OP over his crisis of faith and the door to critical thinking was slammed shut forever.

So don't set your sights too high.

[RemieV]

*sigh*

Don't get frustrated, Skeptic Guy. You just need to find a way of expressing yourself that is difficult to find offensive in any capacity. And a lot of things can be found offensive. As soon as you get someone's back up, they're going to completely tune you out. There's an in-between place somewhere that we just haven't found yet, I think.

[Skeptic Guy]

A woman on the 18+ forum, who's husband has been recently murdered, posted some concerns about being haunted by the spirit of her dead husband...

Instead of being told that maybe, just maybe, a combination of grief, overly religious beliefs, and some faulty electrical work may be the cause, she gets:

Only one thing worries me. The stranger with the look of your husband. I'm thinking that something called a "familiar spirit" is playing you. I hate these things. They don't really cause any harm, but it's such a useless game, and can sometimes cause people to do things which lead to unprofitable results. They're not ghosts. They're not departed loved ones. What they are is lower eschelon demonic spirits who just like to screw with people's minds and hearts. In this case, that spirit temporaily found someone walking down the street with their trap door wide open ... probably someone stoned or drunk, and plopped in to give you guys a good messing with. Watch yourself. If it gives you any trouble, let us know.

Sigh....

Edit - Added my response

I am sorry for your loss...

Have you had someone check your house's electrical wiring? That may be a big portion of your problem. And it is not unknown to have computer monitors fail too. It happens all the time. And I am not surprised to hear of your daughter's experiences, she just lost her father and has heard the family speak of ghosts, all of that combined with the active imagination of a child might account for it.

I would eliminate the mundane before jumping to the ghostly.

[Skeptic Guy]

Maybe a small victory. Joseph sent me a couple of PMs. One said that he would read Sagan's Demon Haunted World...YEAH! And the other showed me four of the responses he got from his EVP. None of them matched but he thought that the results were "inconclusive" since there seemed to be common "sounds" being picked up by the listeners, specifically the "ow" and "e" sounds.

Small, baby steps...

[CLD]

Skep Tiki Guy,

It may be time to gently introduce them to the 7 warning signs of bogus science:

http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i21/21b02001.htm

1. The discoverer pitches the claim directly to the media.
2. The discoverer says that a powerful establishment is trying to suppress his or her work.
3. The scientific effect involved is always at the very limit of detection.
4. Evidence for a discovery is anecdotal.
5. The discoverer says a belief is credible because it has endured for centuries.
6. The discoverer has worked in isolation.
7. The discoverer must propose new laws of nature to explain an observation.

[Miss Whiplash]

Great news Skeptic Guy! Even though the kids' board is pretty sad, most the posters are young enough they will grow out of this stage. Ghost Hunters is a passing fad, like Marilyn Manson and clothes from HotTopic.

Another good book I recommend for yonger readers (and the less schooled) is Sleeping With Extra-Terrestrials: The Rise of Irrationalism and Perils of Piety (http://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Extra-Terrestrials-Irrationalism-Perils-Vintage/dp/0679758860/sr=1-1/qid=1157220676/ref=sr_1_1/104-1025435-1255945?ie=UTF8&s=books) by Wendy Kaminer. It's a very easy read and very witty. As Ms. Kaminer spends less time on classical philosophy, she can hold the attention of the "it's boooring!" crowd longer. Still, it's a good introduction to critical thinking.

[RemieV]

Or Mary Roach with "Spook".

[Miss Whiplash]

Thank you, Remie! Spook is wonderful. Until I read Spook, I had never given much thought about where the mediums kept that ectoplasmic cheese cloth! :D

[RemieV]

One had poo on it! Gahhhhhhhh!!!!

[Skeptic Guy]

Thanks for the book suggestion Vampire. I'll give it to him.

I'll have to read that Mary Roach book, I read the review in the Times. Though I am not looking forward to the poo.

Everyone ignored my post to the woman who lost her husband. One of the loons is going to Divinity School at Yale....can you believe it?

[CLD]

Skeptic Guy, the Divinity School woman is a personal friend of the head plumber. She has PM'd me a few times saying that she once was a skeptic too. Her suggestion is that I go to a haunted spot and open my mind, as once I have a fantasmagorical experience of my own, I'll accept the dogma and embrace the faith. I keep wondering why these folks feel the need to convert me. I have no doubt they wonder the same thing about us.

[Miss Whiplash]

That "I was a skeptic once" always gets me. I guess I did it backwards. I was once a believer. I went to haunted sites with an "open mind." Over the years, I never found anything other than misinterpretation of everyday events, suggestible people, tall tale telling and out and out chickanery. What did I do wrong?

[RemieV]

You didn't open your mind enough. *OF COURSE*

[Skeptic Guy]

There is another guy on the site that claims to have been a skeptic once, now he suggests that there are demons in Ouija boards...

I wonder what the trigger is that changes a skeptic, grounded in reality, to a woo believing "demonologist"? Do you think they really were skeptical or just thought they were so they could tell themselves that they studied the evidence and proved to themselves that the supernatural exists?

In any event friend of the plumber or not, I can't believe Yale is cranking out wackos like that, Divinity school or not.

CLD, come to the light, all are welcome, all are welcome...

[RemieV]

For some reason, this is making me think "Mel Gibson, Dream Demonologist". But I'm in a strange mood. Just thought I'd share that with everyone ;)

[CLD]

As soon as SPOOK got on the SAPS reading list I picked it up and had a most enjoyable time with it. Vamp recommended SHOCKINGLY CLOSE TO THE TRUTH (a UFO culture memoir) and it has arrived from Amazon today. I think we should get a 10% off SAPS/JREF discount from Barnes and Noble...

SkepticGuy, fighter of the good fight, I see your TAPS forum correspondent has descended firmly into delusion, claiming he hears voices. (But unlike other less worthys, HE is able to understand their "meaning")

[Skeptic Guy]

As soon as SPOOK got on the SAPS reading list I picked it up and had a most enjoyable time with it. Vamp recommended SHOCKINGLY CLOSE TO THE TRUTH (a UFO culture memoir) and it has arrived from Amazon today. I think we should get a 10% off SAPS/JREF discount from Barnes and Noble...

SkepticGuy, fighter of the good fight, I see your TAPS forum correspondent has descended firmly into delusion, claiming he hears voices. (But unlike other less worthys, HE is able to understand their "meaning")

Yes, I was just going to post about this guy. However, please note that he is NOT delusional as he understands their "meaning" not just words! I asked him for evidence of that, but I think I will shortly suggest Prozac.

On the 18+ site is a young woman (I think) that dabbled in automatic writing and Ouija boards and is now haunted/possessed by a spirit. She can't sleep, she hasn't finished her Masters, she is stressed and feels spirits following her. She wants an exorcism but the Catholic Church won't help her. She is asking for help and all she is getting are people telling her to pray, get holy water, "non-religious" exorcisms, etc. I would love to jump in to tell her what she needs is a good psychiatrist, but she won't believe it and everyone else will start flaming me...should I? Oh what the heck...

[RemieV]

I think that she is asking for advice on what to do because she is frightened, and any answer that does not give her the power to make a change in her life is going to be ignored. You know, it's entirely possible that an exorcism would help her. It might be for the wrong reasons, but it would still accomplish the same goal. In some of these, there is no battle because the person wants something particularly. If you want to help her, empower her in some way. Saying "Go to a psychiatrist" probably won't do that. See, I'm typing like I know all the answers and I don't. Sorry :)

Oh, btw, if you missed the thread, the podcast featuring yours truly is now posted. So, if you want to hear the sexy voice that goes with this sweet face, stop on by and have a listen ;)

Alright, that was just silly. Listen anyway.

http://mysteryinvestigators.com/podcast.htm

(P.S. My voice isn't really sexy.) :D

[Skeptic Guy]

I think that she is asking for advice on what to do because she is frightened, and any answer that does not give her the power to make a change in her life is going to be ignored. You know, it's entirely possible that an exorcism would help her. It might be for the wrong reasons, but it would still accomplish the same goal. In some of these, there is no battle because the person wants something particularly. If you want to help her, empower her in some way. Saying "Go to a psychiatrist" probably won't do that. See, I'm typing like I know all the answers and I don't. Sorry :)

Oh, btw, if you missed the thread, the podcast featuring yours truly is now posted. So, if you want to hear the sexy voice that goes with this sweet face, stop on by and have a listen ;)

Alright, that was just silly. Listen anyway.

http://mysteryinvestigators.com/podcast.htm

(P.S. My voice isn't really sexy.) :D

Smart woman, sexy voice! I am on my way.

I already suggested that she see a doctor, I thought psychiatrist would just blow the lid off the thread, it probably will anyway. I agree that the exorcism may act like a placebo and kind of thought of that, but everyone started to get so scary with demons and stuff that I couldn't see it go on without some reality injected.

[Skeptic Guy]

And now I am looking at a thread where a woman seems to blame her haunted house on her atheist son. She found his journal, read it and found out he is having some weird dreams that may suggest demonology....

*sigh*

Edit - I am tempted to post saying that I doubt that her son would replace one fantasy with another... but that may be too smarta**

[Skeptic Guy]

You guys should go see rjisinspired's post in the regular TAPs forum under "Are these EVPs real?". He has a long post with a graph that I am digesting, but it is a graph of his voice, which of course would be audible, so does not explain the base energy that would be used to produce EVPs.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

[Miss Whiplash]

You guys should go see rjisinspired's post in the regular TAPs forum under "Are these EVPs real?". He has a long post with a graph that I am digesting, but it is a graph of his voice, which of course would be audible, so does not explain the base energy that would be used to produce EVPs.

I would appreciate your thoughts.


I would send him another EVP, but this time use Remie's interview...:D

The TAPS boards are quickly becoming a soap opera. Perhaps, SciFi should cancel Ghost Hunters and do a show on the boards. It would be more interesting.

[RemieV]

I'm afraid I don't understand the point of the graph. Is there one?

[CLD]

The graph is idiotic...in context of the paranormal.

It is a boringly NORMAL spectrograph of a male voice with the expected lows around 100 hz, mids at 1000 hz and highs 2500-3000 hz....community colleges teach it in Recording Studio 101, but it takes a real lunkhead to think he's discovered some hidden paranormal scientific truth in it. These Spiricom nutbags think if they provide spooks with a bunch of sample tones from the human voice spectrum, the spooks will be able to mold them (like kids working with play-dough) into audible speech. It's logic right out of a sci-fi movie, complete with meaningless technical mumbo jumbo. Skepticguy you need to tell him he's caught up by PSEUDOSCIENCE.

PS: Remie checka you mailboxa ciao bella

[RemieV]

*checks e-mail*... Did I answer it without realizing? Or am I looking in the wrong box? Myspace, founder@skepticalanalysis.com, or my PMs here? I probably answered without realizing. It's been a very tiring day. I swear, I'm not normally completely insane... :D

[CLD]

Never mind, I see your email. I foolishly expect INSTANT RESPONSE. Must be a California thing...

[blutoski]

PS: since everyone is using old photos of themselves as avatars I thought I'd put my oar in the water.

Are you... are you... Dave Stewart of the Eurythmics?

[CLD]

I'm not Dave Stewart but I always liked Annie Lenox.

SkepticGuy, I have read a few of the threads you posted in TAPS. Not sure which one it is, but a woman with a degree in Psychology who is claiming troublesome spirits are bugging her says that she does not see any signs of mental illness in herself. My question is, would a mentally-ill psychologist be able to diagnose mental illness in themselves?

I observe an unstated theme running through all those TAPS "need help" posters: "I need help, explanations, opinions, etc. but will only entertain those opinions that lean toward the paranormal".

[blutoski]

Forgive me if I'm repeating something that may have been mentioned earlier, but have any of those interested in TAPS seen the SAPS website (http://www.skepticalanalysis.com/)?

[Skeptic Guy]

Hey guys, sorry I have been missing. I had to travel to London on business and am just had some time to respond to anything other than London. I am here until Thursday when I travel to Amsterdam for a trade show until the 12th. I may be a little intermittent on the responses.

CLD, I have to get back to rjisinpired. I had a chance to look at it a couple of days ago and it was just his voice, as you pointed out, I asked him to define one of the terms he used and this is what he sent. Much too information for the lack of help it gave.

The mentally ill never see it in themselves...I look forward to telling her that! :)

Blutoski - Thanks for the tip. Actually, RemieV, who posts on this thread, runs the SAPS group. So we are all across it! A valuable resource. You should listen to her on her podcast which is provided in one of her posts above. I was trying to until my battery died on my laptop right as they were introducing her but I hear she has a sexy voice. ;)

[CLD]

No problem. Skeptic Guy are you based in the UK or are you normally in the US? Just curious.

Also...here's a great skeptical page about EVP...the recording engineer's comments are especially relevant to your discussion with the believers: http://skepdic.com/evp.html

[Alareth]

Here is last response. The comment about "invisible light" makes my head hurt. Since when has light become "invisible"?

Could he have been refering to the Infrared and Ultraviolet spectra?

[Miss Whiplash]

Most likely. But visable light is only a small sliver of the EM spectrum. The point was it's only invisable to human perception. The properties remain the same.

[Miss Whiplash]

Be glad you are in London, Skeptic Guy. The TAPS board is getting worse!

[blutoski]

Here is last response. The comment about "invisible light" makes my head hurt. Since when has light become "invisible"?

I think this is an opportunity to introduce Blondlot and his N-rays.

The concept of invisible light, like all new ideas, was exciting to scientists, and they were tripping over each other trying to discover new types.

Blondlot claimed to have discovered a type of invisible light he called N-rays. Blind testing and the failure to replicate results by others revealed that it was simply a product of his imagination. This can happen to the best scientist.

Science went on to validate many types of invisible light, but Blondlot wouldn't let his failure go, and eventually died a national embarassment. Not because he'd discovered something new (that's a redundant expression) or because unconventional ideas were shunned by the scientific establishment. No: Blondlot was embarassing because he was unwilling to accept that his senses could be influenced by wishful thinking.



EVP is at the stage where its advocates can put themsevles to the exact same type of test to which Blondlot accepted in the spirit of scientific inquiry. My impression is that they are actually well overdue, in fact, but nobody's stepped up to the plate. That alone is suspicious, and suggests they are privately not as confident that EVP interpretations are as objective as they publicly claim them to be.

[CLD]

OMG! I love this guy! He is in contact with the spirit world via a broken tube-type radio!

http://aaevp.com/articles/articles_about_itc5.htm

In the past two decades he (Bacci) has been obtaining his transcontacts through an old Nordmende valve radio.

In his experiments, Bacci tunes his radio to the short-wave band, in a frequency ranging between 7 and 9 MHz, in a zone clear from normal radio transmissions. After waiting for ten to twenty minutes the existing background noise disappears and a typical acoustic signal comes out of the loudspeaker, similar to an approaching wind vortex, repeated three or four times at short intervals. Silence then follows, at the end of which an invisible speaker starts to communicate by establishing with Bacci, or with the people attending the experiment, something like a dialogue. It is interesting to observe that usually the entities address Bacci in the third person and only rarely in the first person. The paranormal vocal utterances are not continuous but interspersed with pauses.

Yeah...lots of pauses....that must mean the spirits are thinking. :-)

[sat556]

How exactly would one go about testing to see what caused an EVP? It could be any number of things surely. How on earth would we be able to rule them all out?
Or do you all think that just finding that the recording lies within a specific area of the spectrum would be enough to claim it's 'normal'?
EVP is one thing I have never really bothered with, due to it's obviously being a pile of (rule8).
I think I might start to mess about with it though, I suppose the easiest thing to do is to get some then put them on the web site and ask for opinions on what is being said. That would be interesting, but still it wouldn't show what had caused the sound in the first place.

Actually, I have an ultrasonic reciever here, so maybe it would be interesting to see if I can pick up any recordings through that. I can rig that directly to a computer and just check for sounds to save myself listening to the whole thing. I'd have to pick a frequency and record a bit, then pick another and record for a bit, then another, etc. I bet the believers will say that this annoys spirit lol.

[CLD]

I have been round and round with these EVP people on the subject. They are tireless believers and invent absurd explanations for every question that is posed to them. Saying that a ghost caused a noise on a segment of recording media strikes me as an arbitrary conclusion. You could just as easily say a Leprechaun or a Space Alien caused it, and set about to "prove" that conclusion.

[sat556]

Exactly, so what test can we devise to almost disprove this? We can keep throwing normal explanations at them all day long, but until we prove that these things can be so they won't listen. Mind you, they might not anyway, the track record isn't so good.
I think I did a fairly good debunking of the video loop ITC, when I get time I'm going to start doing EVP.
Does anybody know of anywhere that i can get a list of the usual normal explanations? Maybe I can test all these out, and show the results, so the believers will at least know these theories are valid and not just the mean ol' sceptics grasping at straws again like they seem to think we do.

[CLD]

I would start with strict scientific controls. Put three time-code-sync recorders in a faraday sheilded, anechoic chamber. The problem is, once you start putting the controls in place, the phenomena will cease to occur because the "ghost" requires "something to work with", i.e. an uncontrolled "haunted" location, a psychic medium close to the microphone, a white noise generator, a recorder with a high noise floor, a radio tuned between stations, etc.

[sat556]

Put three time-code-sync recorders in a faraday sheilded, anechoic chamber.

Such objects I just happen to have in my garage :D

I suppose then I'll get recordings from various sources, including recording the wind, 'blank' radio areas, generated white noise, etc. Maybe I'll even record the rain or something. Bound to find patterns around all over. Then stick them all up on site, and ask for opinions on what is being said.
That's though is two things isn't it? It's showing how natural/normal things can create 'voices', and also showing pareidolia.
Maybe do some fake recordings and some 'real' ones? Then ask readers which is which? Also, why they think that?
This area seems a real pain. The video thing was easy, I just used different set ups and showed how they all gave different results. Lots were done in the same location, which is not haunted to my knowledge (how else could I put that? I don't think anywhere is haunted, lol).
There's just too much bull in this to get around I feel.

[CLD]

Sat, where can I find your debunk of the ITC video thing? Link?

[Skeptic Guy]

I'm Baaaackkkk....

Sorry to be missing. While in London I was put up in a cheap hotel without broadband connectivity and my laptop doesn't even support dial up. Besides, it was all business anyway.

Got to Amsterdam for a tradeshow and it was up early for booth duty, out late at parties and squeezing out time for business email. I never had a chance to do anything else. I think I had around 8 hours sleep in the last 72 hours.

Just landed back in NJ. Let me catch up with the conversation and jump back in.

[Skeptic Guy]

No problem. Skeptic Guy are you based in the UK or are you normally in the US? Just curious.

Also...here's a great skeptical page about EVP...the recording engineer's comments are especially relevant to your discussion with the believers: http://skepdic.com/evp.html

Now that I am back...catching up.

I live in NJ in the good ol' US of A, but travel some. Mostly to Asia, but this past week and a half to London and Amsterdam, both fantastic cities. A good friend of mine is getting a Key to London this Thursday. A big thing that is supposed to be attended by Mrs. Blair and some royals...he's quite excited.

[CLD]

Welcome back SkeptcGuy. I think I sent you some PM's a while back.

[Skeptic Guy]

Welcome back SkeptcGuy. I think I sent you some PM's a while back.

I got one PM from you, I think, and just responded.

Good to be back and fighting the good fight.

[Skeptic Guy]

I challenged someone on the +18 site for evidence about Ouija boards as an instrument for archeaology. The person in question contacted me via PM on how I would like my evidence. PM or on the thread? It took me a while to figure out what he was talking about since it has been a while, but I will keep you all posted.

[CLD]

How does one use a ouija board for Archeology? Contact the spirit of King Tut and ask where the lost gold is buried?

[Skeptic Guy]

I would be happy if spirit would tell me the winning numbers for tonight's Mega Millions.

And another guy is wondering why I am debating him since he is probably THE most skeptical guy on that forum...

Well there's a new sheriff in town.

[CLD]

Drop by here if you want to vent about TAPS. :-)

http://p067.ezboard.com/bmondoskepto

[Skeptic Guy]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_7408450eb2715e6b5.jpg ('http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1511')

The famous 1949 photo of the main staircase capturing a strange apparition which has been seen many times over the decades. Is this Mrs. Conroy, the builder's wife, who hanged herself on the third floor landing in 1908 shortly after their only son died in a fall down these stairs? Is it the son? Or, perhaps, it is the spirit of Frances Green, a prostitute murdered in 1928 in Lucky Luciano's Palm Casino speakeasy on the second floor? Or, is it someone else?

The above image and description was found on a radio theatre website that was advertising for a Halloween broadcast so I won't hold them to the highest rigors of science, but I think it looks more like frosty the snowman than anything else. Probably a stain left from the developing process?

[Dr B]

These kiddies need to see & hear Dr. Richard Wiseman demonstrate the way we find patterns in sounds, just once ;)

Ok, well maybe they will need to see it several times. Sheesh.

That research is not by Dr W (or at least not originally) - he talks about other researchers that did it. Always go to the primary source if possible. :cool:

Edit - apologies for dragging the conversation back to a very early post - i have been away

[CLD]

The spirit photo-takers of the past favored white apparitions, while the 'ghost busters' of today lean toward black shadows.



http://www.geocities.com/vampire406/lounge.gif

[Skeptic Guy]

I really, really hate the EVP'ers. There is never anything recorded yet everyone hears "something", yet that something is always something different than what the other guy hears yet EVPs are "real" and "scientific"...

I just don't get it.

[Miss Whiplash]

The "I Need Help" topics are hysterical. I cannot understand how people can type this stuff up and keep a straight face.

From The Endless Fight topic:

Wow. Maybe you should ask the angels you saw to make the demons leave. Angels are much more powerful than demons. Pray the Prayer of St.Micheal or something. And maybe your Grandpa can bless the house. And i would accept Kristyn's offer. TAPS can definatly help you on this one.

The OP is a fifteen year old having them all on.

[CLD]

From the OP in the "endless Fight" topic:

The spirit world is never calm, the forces of Satin and his betrayers are everywhere, but god prevailes

"The forces of satin"? (I'm picturing Annette Bening in Dangerous Liasons)

[Skeptic Guy]

I have seen these comment or ones like it and I have started to write a response like, "What are you guys smoking", but then ask myself what will it do.

I know, I know, fight the good fight and all that, but these guys are so far gone it is as helpful as pounding your head against the wall.

[Miss Whiplash]

It's obvisous they want to believe no matter what. I see one has resorted to "you've called me a liar!" when holes in his "evidence" was pointed out.

[sat556]

Sat, where can I find your debunk of the ITC video thing? Link?

Yikes! Sorry CLD. Been out and about for a while. There isn't really a 'debunk' as such to link you to. Just did some experiments on location, posted the results and a conclusion. I'm not motivated enough to do a thorough debunk :D
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

[CLD]

Informal experiments are interesting. If you can give me a link to your post I'd like to read it.

[Alareth]

The spirit world is never calm, the forces of Satin and his betrayers are everywhere, but god prevailes

I KNEW there was something wrong with those bedsheets!

[Skeptic Guy]

I KNEW there was something wrong with those bedsheets!

Ah, but the forces of satin will never stand up to my force of lace and fancy lingerie!

Did I just say that out loud? :blush:

[tony.d.]

I started out wanting to like Ghost Hunters, I really did!
I could get comfortable with the fact that these guys were PLUMBERS who had an INTEREST in para-normal investigations.
I went into the show with no preconceived notions or dislikes.

After a few episodes where they had twin demonologists on their team, and then had "T and A" factors in the form of two attractive women who could pull off convincing "professional" demeanor, I started to get uncomfortable.

I've written tv and film, and like Harlan Ellison and others, am disgusted by the avarice and greed that drives a dumbing down of the american public through the all seeing and all influencing eye of tv(the opiate of the masses)

I began to see the hand of "accountants with cash registers for eyes"
dictating the course of and the results determined by, the TAPS team.

Now, after reading on this forum that Ghost Hunters/TAPS has their own line of T-shirts sold in JC Penney, I truly feel the bile taste of PROFITEERING
and CHICANERY FOR MONEY in the show and in the dishonest and weak
personalities of Jason and his team.

This show is just more flash and noise signifying NOTHING (In MY OPINION)

[Miss Whiplash]

The t-shirts were mere pocket change. The money is in Ghost Hunters' haunted weekend getaways.

This Weekend - Sold Out! (http://idealeventmanage.com/events.html)

The Stanley Hotel- Two Weekends with the Plumbers! (http://www.darknessradio.com/stanley-hotel/)

And of course - Book the Plumbers for your Event! (http://www.gpcollegeentertainment.com/contact.php)