The Growing Men's Movement is having an impact

[Tony]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,88400,00.html ..full article


Gender issues are being rocked by masculinism -- sometimes called men's rights or the Men's Movement (search ).

Advocates claim it is a last chance to restore sanity between the sexes and justice for families. Feminist foes accuse masculinists of wrongdoing that verges on criminal acts. High-profile clashes will almost certainly erupt between the two and public policy will change. But what is masculinism?



The femanazis are under attack.

[Jon_in_london]

Good.

At present, a father is only a father in the biological sense. Legally a father has almost zero rights to his children and the rights he does have are only by the matriach's consent.

JK, eat yer heart out!

[iain]

Can only Growing Men be part of this movement, or are all men allowed to join?

[Nie Trink Wasser]

thank Elvis and Buddha for Jim Goad : http://www.jimgoad.com/goddess.html

[BillyTK]

I just somehow can't get worked up about the idea of men's rights (or "justice for families" in the new PC). I really don't see how a couple of decades of equal opps is going to make that much difference to centuries of institutional and attitudinal inequality. For instance, in the UK, women are still more likely to be victims of domestic violence (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2752507.stm), which kind of puts the whole feminazi totalitarianist crap into perspective.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

www.ifeminists.com

;)

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
www.ifeminists.com

;)

Yeah, I followed the link on the page that Tony linked to... Libertarian feminism, what an interesting concept, eh?

[c0rbin]

I think anyone who uses the term feminazi to ridicule a woman who is interested in a fair shake at life mis-understands the term "feminism" and is probably regurgitate half-truths learned on editorial radio stations.

[Tony]

Originally posted by c0rbin
I think anyone who uses the term feminazi to ridicule a woman who is interested in a fair shake at life mis-understands the term "feminism" and is probably regurgitate half-truths learned on editorial radio stations.


Its a good thing no one here is doing that.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
JK, eat yer heart out!

It was only a matter of time before the leftist media started to attack our massively growing armies of enlightened men who are finally responding to the terror of matriarchal totalitarianism.

JK

[c0rbin]

Indeed some are using the term...

The femanazis are under attack.

[Tony]

Originally posted by c0rbin
Indeed some are using the term...



Not for the reason that you stated.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by BillyTK
I just somehow can't get worked up about the idea of men's rights (or "justice for families" in the new PC). I really don't see how a couple of decades of equal opps is going to make that much difference to centuries of institutional and attitudinal inequality. For instance, in the UK, women are still more likely to be victims of domestic violence (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2752507.stm), which kind of puts the whole feminazi totalitarianist crap into perspective.

Two points there Billy;

1- this has nothing to do with the 'womens lib' type of thing. Because men were so much more powerfull in the past, gaping holes have been left in the law that actually leave men with no rights in some regards because there just wasnt any need for that type of thing in the past. In South Africa there was a case where a couple divorced and the wife put the baby up for adoption. The father asked to be allowed to have the child but was denied by the courts because he just didnt have ANY RIGHTS TO HIS CHILD WHATSOEVER (SA law is basically the same as UK law in this regard).

2- Sure women may be victims of domestic abuse but how on earth do you propose to find out the correct ratio of abused men to abused women, ginven the a man is about one thousand squillion times less likely to report spousal abuse than a woman is? (and about the same amount less likely to recieve any sympathy or support).

[c0rbin]

Not for the reason that you stated.

Why else do some use the term "feminazi"?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by c0rbin


Why else do some use the term "feminazi"?

There is feminism ie. fighting for fair/equal treatment for women
There is feminism ie. blame men for everything, get all millitant etc..

The latter is feminazism.

[DavidJames]

The entire notion of a "men's movement" and the thought that somehow men are the real victims is laughable. I'm a white male, take a look around you. Who's running the country, who's running the corporations, who's running the military, who's running Congress, we're even coaching many of college and professional women's sports teams. Of course you will tell me that that's only because we are the most qualified and who knows that might even be true but it misses the point. The point is white males are not the real victims, we don't need a movement. Unless, of course, you feel threatened, afraid to compete, afraid your inherent power might be taken away.

[Tony]

Originally posted by c0rbin


Why else do some use the term "feminazi"?

What Jon-N-London said. Feminists are looking to gain EQUAL rights for women. Feminazis are men-hating sexists.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by DavidJames
The entire notion of a "men's movement" and the thought that somehow men are the real victims is laughable. I'm a white male, take a look around you. Who's running the country, who's running the corporations, who's running the military, who's running Congress, we're even coaching many of college and professional women's sports teams. Of course you will tell me that that's only because we are the most qualified and who knows that might even be true but it misses the point. The point is white males are not the real victims, we don't need a movement. Unless, of course, you feel threatened, afraid to compete, afraid your inherent power might be taken away.

White males? That is laughable. The men's movement is comprised of males from all races. It isn't a collective of white males.

Men are sick of feminazi lies and cultural terror. That is why they are forming armies of enlightened masculinists to deal with feminist storm troopers and the new evil empire.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by c0rbin


Why else do some use the term "feminazi"?

Because they are female Nazis?

JK

[c0rbin]

Thanks, Jon.

So "masculanism" is "feminism" and "feminazis" are the opposite of "mysagynists."

[celter]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


There is feminism ie. fighting for fair/equal treatment for women
There is feminism ie. blame men for everything, get all millitant etc..

The latter is feminazism.

I don't like the term feminazi. I think the most appropriate terms describing feminism are equity feminism and gender feminism.

Equity feminists believe that there must be legal and political equality for women.
Gender feminism is the doctrine that all women are victims of oppression in a system of male dominance where ALL men are, of course, oppressors.

The following quotes are representative of the mindset of the Gender Feminists.

"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle". -- Gloria Steinem

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, editor of Ms. magazine

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan, in 1974

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." -- Catherine MacKinnon Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies, pg 129

"Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat". -- Hillary Clinton

"Until now it has been thought that the level of testosterone in men is normal simply because they have it. But if you consider how abnormal their behaviour is, then you are led to the hypothesis that almost all men are suffering from "testosterone poisoning." -- A Feminist Dictionary, ed. Kramarae and Treichler, Pandora Press, 1985

Anyone who doesn't think these position are representative of much of feminism today is not paying attention to what is being taught in women's studies programs in Universities all across the US.

Echo Feminists, by the way, are males who echo pop gender feminist propoganda.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by c0rbin
Thanks, Jon.

So "masculanism" is "feminism" and "feminazis" are the opposite of "mysagynists."

yes. (mysogynists)

Celter- I also dont like the term, I was just offering a definition.

[c0rbin]

(mysogynists)

Ha!

Spelling is fashion.

;)

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Two points there Billy;

1- this has nothing to do with the 'womens lib' type of thing. Because men were so much more powerfull in the past, gaping holes have been left in the law that actually leave men with no rights in some regards because there just wasnt any need for that type of thing in the past. In South Africa there was a case where a couple divorced and the wife put the baby up for adoption. The father asked to be allowed to have the child but was denied by the courts because he just didnt have ANY RIGHTS TO HIS CHILD WHATSOEVER (SA law is basically the same as UK law in this regard).

The situation in the UK is that unless the biological father of a child is married to its mother, then the father has no automatic rights of guardianship or access; however, unmarried fathers can apply for these rights with the mother's agreement through a 'Parental Responsibility' agreement, but even if the mother disagrees to this the father can seek a court order under the provision of the Children Act.

In the case of divorced parents who take a custody battle to court, it's the children interest which is the priority rather than the rights or wishes of the parents. As you acknowledge, this situation is not the result of feminism, so surely it's a parental issue, not a "masculinist" one?

2- Sure women may be victims of domestic abuse but how on earth do you propose to find out the correct ratio of abused men to abused women, ginven the a man is about one thousand squillion times less likely to report spousal abuse than a woman is? (and about the same amount less likely to recieve any sympathy or support).

As we can't ask everyone in the country, then surveys like the one I linked to are a good place to start (ICM survey using a random sample of 1020 adults). According to this poll, 37% of women and 19% of men reported incidents of domestic violence to the police. Or there's self report studies like these carried out by the Home Office (http://www.domesticviolencedata.org/4_faqs/faq01.htm), which suggests that domestic violence accounts for 40% of violent incidents reported by women and 10% of violent incidents reported by men.

Then there's the crime figures themselves from the British Crime Study (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb702.pdf) (PDF warning) which records 3,613 indecent assaults on males compared with 9,008 indecent assaults on females; 735 cases of male rape compared with 9,008 cases of female rape (I haven't looked for gender of the perpetrator). Or this report (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/rdsolr0103.pdf) which states that between 1995 and 1999 44% of all female homicide victims were killed by a current or former sexual partner, compared to 7% of all male victims; in real terms this is 484 female and 153 male victims of domestic homicide. Now admittedly these crime figures are only records of incidents which have been made known to the police, butr in combination with self-report studies we can get a pretty accurate picture of what's going on.

[Skeptic]

Oh great.

So now there isn't ANYBODY in America any more that isn't part of some "victimized group" any more.

What's next? A support group for millionaires against all that envy and bad stuff people write about them? I can see it now...

"Most people think being a millionaire is easy", said a man identified only as "Tim". "That's not true. There's the summer house to worry about, the Porsche payments, and so on. And every time I go out with it, I get these dirty looks, like I don't deserve it. I think that is a hate crime--people despising me just for being richer than they are."

Tim is one of a growing number of millionaires who claim to be "sick and tired of the constant villifying and stereotyping" of people like them in the media. "We are seen as a bunch of heartless, cynical people who care about nothing but money." Continues Tim. "But who do these critics think donates money to museums and art galleries, so that those in the middle class could enjoy art for free? It's the millioniares. We work our butts off making money to donate to art museums, and then we're accused of being artless! This is just wrong."

Tim's wife, "Barbara" (not her real name) joins in. "When people hear I'm married to a millionaire, they immediatelly think I am a bimbo, a gold-digger", she said. "In truth, I was married to Tim for more than twenty years--like most millionaire couples I know, we have a steady marriage based on love and respect; money's got nothing to do with it. Why do I have to suffer social ostracism from the middle class just because I married a succesful man?"

"Then there's this issue of 'snobism'", they both say, which they claim is a classic case of "blaming the victim". "During Jim Crow", says Barbara, "white people didn't let blacks join their clubs, so blacks formed their own; and the same white people claimed this is proof black people prefer to be 'with their own kind. We suffer the same sort of discrimination: when we go to middle-class places, we always get the dirty looks and envious jokes about how stupid millionaires are. So we formed out own clubs... and now are accused of snobism! Is this unfair, or what?"

The couple are the founders and maintainers of the new anti-discrimination web page, www.pitytherich.com, which they say recieves "thousands of e-mails a day--many of them from millionaires and even billionaires." They are lobbying Congress to declare acts of "economism", as they call it, a hate crime.

Damn, I'm getting good at this!

[celter]

The opposite of misogyny is misandry

http://www.arts.ouc.bc.ca/fina/glossary/m_list.html#misandry

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Skeptic
"Most people think being a millionaire is easy", said a man identified only as "Tim". "That's not true. There's the summer house to worry about, the Porsche payments, and so on. And every time I go out with it, I get these dirty looks, like I don't deserve it. I think that is a hate crime--people despising me just for being richer than they are."

lol

JK

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by celter


I don't like the term feminazi. I think the most appropriate terms describing feminism are equity feminism and gender feminism.
I agree! I don't like the term feminazi either. But describing them as either equity or gender feminists is problematic, and the later term is kind of... I want to say oxymoronic, but that's probably too harsh.
Equity feminists believe that there must be legal and political equality for women.
Gender feminism is the doctrine that all women are victims of oppression in a system of male dominance where ALL men are, of course, oppressors.
This is where the definition become problematic, because in terms of the theoretical basis, it's more of a continuum than a polarity, as the idea of male (or more accurately patriarchal) oppression as an explanation of women's status in society is kind of central to most feminism. There's even the idea that men are as much victims of patriarchy as well (albeit much less victimised than women).
The following quotes are representative of the mindset of the Gender Feminists.

"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle". -- Gloria Steinem

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, editor of Ms. magazine

"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire." -- Robin Morgan, in 1974

"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent." -- Catherine MacKinnon Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies, pg 129

"Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat". -- Hillary Clinton

"Until now it has been thought that the level of testosterone in men is normal simply because they have it. But if you consider how abnormal their behaviour is, then you are led to the hypothesis that almost all men are suffering from "testosterone poisoning." -- A Feminist Dictionary, ed. Kramarae and Treichler, Pandora Press, 1985

Anyone who doesn't think these position are representative of much of feminism today is not paying attention to what is being taught in women's studies programs in Universities all across the US.
I must say that the ones by Steinem and from the Feminist Dictionary are corkers! Clinton's comment is a bit daft, but I wouldn't exactly lump her in with the radical feminist crowd.
Echo Feminists, by the way, are males who echo pop gender feminist propoganda.
"pop gender feminist propoganda"... love it!

[aerocontrols]

Didn't we retire "Feminazi"?

Lezbollah
Elle Qaeda
Al-aksa Mommie's Brigade
Hamammas
Hersein

Nazis are so last millenium.

[celter]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Oh great.

So now there isn't ANYBODY in America any more that isn't part of some "victimized group" any more.

What's next? A support group for millionaires against all that envy and bad stuff people write about them? I can see it now...

Damn, I'm getting good at this!

It's often taken for granted that men are economically and socially powerful and could not possibly need anyone to advocate on their behalf. This is a stereotype; men can be and are victimised in many ways. The reality is that while a tiny minority of men may attain positions of power, the overwhelming majority of us do not and is isn't fair to judge our needs on the basis of the acheivements of so few.
I have volunteered at a local soup kitchen and see with my own eyes what the stats make clear; that men are over represented at the very bottom of the socio-economic ladder, among the homeless, drug addicted, mentally ill or incarcerated. These men tend to be forgotten or considered undeserving of resources, perhaps, again, because of the power of a very few men.
Men seem to be disposable and their lives and deaths are simply not as important as those of women and children are.

In Canada, our federal and provincial governments discriminate against men by committing disproportionate resources to women's support and advocacy groups while ignoring the plight of destitute men.

[DavidJames]

I just gave this thread a 5 star rating :)

I have this picture in my head of all these guys delicately crossing their legs in fear that their most prized and valued attribute is in danger.

Edited to add: I don't intend to demean or ignore any abuses that may occur to men caused by women.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by DavidJames
I just gave this thread a 5 star rating :)

I have this picture in my head of all these guys delicately crossing their legs in fear that their most prized and valued attribute is in danger.

Edited to add: I don't intend to demean or ignore any abuses that may occur to men caused by women.

Actually it is the denial expressed by echo feminine males like you that are fueling the new men's movement against the forces of evil. So keep up the good work James. ;)

JK

[Nie Trink Wasser]

it would be interesting to really see how many people agree with and actually incorporate the Scum Manifesto (http://www.ai.mit.edu/~shivers/rants/scum.html) into their lives.

[Roadtoad]

I'm more than tired of the term "feminazi." It's a slur. It's also inaccurate.

I do, however, agree, that there's an incredible lack of sanity in our family courts, and a phenomenal bent AGAINST men in society in general. A friend of mine from work had to actually go to court to get custody of his son when his ex-wife and her boyfriend, through their negligence, killed his daughter.

It was a perversion of justice: the ex and her boyfriend knew damned well their actions were dangerous. They did it anyway. The courts and the family services agency knew the ex and her boyfriend were in the wrong. They did NOTHING to help my friend get custody of his kids, even before the daughter died. (No, I can't tell you more. Privacy, for one thing.) It was a long string of actions which my friend brought to the attention of the courts, but because he was the Father, he was WRONG.

Been there myself. It's about time someone started listening to fathers.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
I'm more than tired of the term "feminazi." It's a slur. It's also inaccurate.

I do, however, agree, that there's an incredible lack of sanity in our family courts, and a phenomenal bent AGAINST men in society in general. A friend of mine from work had to actually go to court to get custody of his son when his ex-wife and her boyfriend, through their negligence, killed his daughter.

It was a perversion of justice: the ex and her boyfriend knew damned well their actions were dangerous. They did it anyway. The courts and the family services agency knew the ex and her boyfriend were in the wrong. They did NOTHING to help my friend get custody of his kids, even before the daughter died. (No, I can't tell you more. Privacy, for one thing.) It was a long string of actions which my friend brought to the attention of the courts, but because he was the Father, he was WRONG.

Been there myself. It's about time someone started listening to fathers.


Damn!! thats horrible. :(

If you cant answer these questions its ok.

Did your friend eventually get custody of his son?

Were charges brought up aginast the mom and/or boyfriend?

[Malachi151]

The worst is divorce law. Thats ********. My dad got divorced and his ex-wife made out like a thief. She was the bitch and she was the problem in the marriage, she had no prospcts, no job, etc, was a free loader, then to boot, when they get divorced she got half of everything.

She should have had to pay him back for the benefits she got while they were married.

The law is still on the books that the man is supposed to susteain his ex-wife at a standard of living comperable to when they were married. Thats total ********, there is no caue for that anymore. That law needs to go away.

The issue is that the laws made sense 100 years ago, they no longer, do, but they are kept on the books because women and lawyers want them there, and because its supposed to make you want to stay married more. Screw that, if and when I get married there will be a pre-nup. Its ******** that some of these wives marry rich guys, then freeload, and then want a divorce and want the money too, hell they had a free ride for a while, that should be good enough, go get job! My dad ex even got property that had been in our family for 2 generations and was given to him as a gift by my great grandmother!

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Tony



Damn!! thats horrible. :(

If you cant answer these questions its ok.

Did your friend eventually get custody of his son?

Were charges brought up aginast the mom and/or boyfriend?

Yes to both. The kid is better for it. Unfortunately, all mom and boyfriend got was probation...:eek:

[Globert]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Didn't we retire "Feminazi"?

Lezbollah
Elle Qaeda
Al-aksa Mommie's Brigade
Hamammas
Hersein

Nazis are so last millenium.


is 'womyn' out too?

though nazi implies rigid order more than the fanatic of the moment.

intolerance is somthing i cannot tolerate.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Globert
intolerance is somthing i cannot tolerate.

Good for you. I agree with you that feminazis are pretty intolerant.

JK

[peptoabysmal]

This is another symptom of how pussified our society has become. The male movement's name is "masculinism", jeez, that sounds, well; gay.

Fess up now, the title was a sexual pun right? "The Growing Men's Movement is having an impact". LOL

[Tony]

Originally posted by peptoabysmal
This is another symptom of how pussified our society has become. The male movement's name is "masculinism", jeez, that sounds, well; gay.

I heard it was originally called the "Cock and Balls" movement, but for PR purposes, they opted to change the name. :p

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Malachi151
The law is still on the books that the man is supposed to susteain his ex-wife at a standard of living comperable to when they were married. Thats total ********, there is no caue for that anymore. That law needs to go away.


There was a case a few years ago when this lazy bastard who did sod all the whole time got divorced from his power-career-wife. He sued her for maintainance :D needles to say, the feminazis had apoplexy over all this.................