The Mormons came to my house tonight

[CplFerro]

I sat them down and we compared Catholic and Mormon notions of the Trinity. It turns out, that Mormonism is polytheistic, holding that Creator, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are three distinct beings united in godly purpose. After some wrangling, I pointed out to them that this is functionally no different from the Catholic Trinity where the personalities of Creator, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are united in the Godhead - the point is, both Catholic Godhead and Mormon common godly purpose represent a unified principle of action in the universe, and thus is the real authority. They, of course, when in doubt said nothing, and I certainly convinced them of nothing. But I have shown myself that their beliefs are not as far from Catholicism in this regard as one might think.

Even though the New Testament clearly states that "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," and later that "the Word was made flesh and walked among us," they denied the identity of God and Jesus.

Near the end, they began their pitch about how Mormonism's power comes from the revelation of their modern prophet, whose revelation they take on faith supported by Scripture (whether or not they support it with the Book of Mormon itself, sort of a double-circularity of evidence, I forgot to ask). When I asked them how I could decide where to place my faith, given 800 million Hindus and 1.2 billion Muslims place their faith elsewhere, they couldn't give me answer.

Then they asked me to pray, and I noted that, in the name of science, I indeed started to pray on several occasions. I found that whenever I sincerely prayed to Jesus I slipped into a profoundly delusional state that lasted for days, potentially endangered my life, and has on occasion led to my admission to a psychiatric ward. So, perhaps understandably I do not pray any more, for fear of my sanity. I told them that if God exists, he knows my intention and so there's no need for me to say anything. They suggested that I was "praying wrong."

One thing I forget to hit them with was the notion that Peter was told he would found a church that would never die. Yet if the Catholic church is false, so was that prophecy, since the Catholic Church traces its foundation to Peter. Better luck remembering all this next time, I guess.

That is the end of my report.

[Soapy Sam]

You do know you are doomed to eternal heck?

[Azure]

Good job!

[RandFan]

I sat them down and we compared Catholic and Mormon notions of the Trinity. It turns out, that Mormonism is polytheistic, holding that Creator, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are three distinct beings united in godly purpose. After some wrangling, I pointed out to them that this is functionally no different from the Catholic Trinity where the personalities of Creator, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are united in the Godhead - the point is, both Catholic Godhead and Mormon common godly purpose represent a unified principle of action in the universe, and thus is the real authority. They, of course, when in doubt said nothing, and I certainly convinced them of nothing. But I have shown myself that their beliefs are not as far from Catholicism in this regard as one might think. Interesting. Hadn't thought in those terms before. Note that the Mormon doctrine of separate and distinct entities has caused mainstream Christian Churches to declare Mormons non-Christian.

Even though the New Testament clearly states that "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," and later that "the Word was made flesh and walked among us," they denied the identity of God and Jesus. Genesis 1:26-27: "And God said, `Let us make man in our likeness...

Genesis 3:22: "Behold the man has become as one of us to know good and evil.

It's really rather silly to try and prove monotheism or polytheism from the Bible. Why would Christ go the the Garden of Gethsemane and plead with himself to let himself out of the crucification? It really does not make any logical sense.

The best you can do with the Bible is demonstrate that it is not consistent.

Near the end, they began their pitch about how Mormonism's power comes from the revelation of their modern prophet, whose revelation they take on faith supported by Scripture (whether or not they support it with the Book of Mormon itself, sort of a double-circularity of evidence, I forgot to ask). When I asked them how I could decide where to place my faith, given 800 million Hindus and 1.2 billion Muslims place their faith elsewhere, they couldn't give me answer.(emphasis mine)

OH MAN!!!

When I was on a mission for the Mormon Church we had a name for this question, it was called "The Golden Question" and we tried to steer converts to ask it on their own rather than us simply telling them. As a missionary I dreamed of people asking this question.

Are you sure these were Mormon missionaries?

When I went into the Missionary Training Center the answer to this question was DRILLED into our heads every day. And let's not forget that it is drilled into ever member time and time again.

Joseph Smith ostensibly came to ask God what the truth was when he read the following scripture.

James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

Later when Joseph translated the Book of Mormon (riiiight) he included the following promise.

Moroni's Promise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroni's_Promise)generally refers to a promise made in the Book of Mormon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon) by the prophet Moroni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroni_%28Mormonism%29).

This promise is made in Moroni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Moroni) 10:3-5.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. These verses are usually used by Mormon missionaries in dealing with potential converts; they are invited to read and follow the advice given, of praying to ask whether the Book of Mormon (and by extension, the LDS Church) is true. Their answer should have been, read the Book of Mormon, pray and ask God if it is true. Of course that is all BS but there is an answer to your question.


Then they asked me to pray, and I noted that, in the name of science, I indeed started to pray on several occasions. I found that whenever I sincerely prayed to Jesus I slipped into a profoundly delusional state that lasted for days, potentially endangered my life, and has on occasion led to my admission to a psychiatric ward. ???

One thing I forget to hit them with was the notion that Peter was told he would found a church that would never die. Yet if the Catholic church is false, so was that prophecy, since the Catholic Church traces its foundation to Peter. Not really no. The Catholic Church traces its foundation to Constantine.

Matthew 16:14-18

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.


He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

nd Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
You are making the error in assuming that scripture can only be interpreted one way.

Mormons believe that Jesus tells Peter that it is revelation that revealed the truth to Peter and it is this, the rock of revelation, that God will build his church on and not Peter.

But that is all silly. Stick to the fact that Native Americans can be proven by DNA and other evidence not to be Hebrew.

Also, point out that the Book of Abraham can be conclusively shown not to be a translation of the Papyrus given to Joseph Smith as Smith and the Mormon Church allege.

There is a lot of really good material. The Mormon Church is so much easier to debunk than most main stream Christian Churches because it is so new. It's claims are easily checked and can't be dissmissed or excused so easily.

[Mike B.]

I sat them down and we compared Catholic and Mormon notions of the Trinity. It turns out, that Mormonism is polytheistic, holding that Creator, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are three distinct beings united in godly purpose. After some wrangling, I pointed out to them that this is functionally no different from the Catholic Trinity where the personalities of Creator, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are united in the Godhead - the point is, both Catholic Godhead and Mormon common godly purpose represent a unified principle of action in the universe, and thus is the real authority. They, of course, when in doubt said nothing, and I certainly convinced them of nothing. But I have shown myself that their beliefs are not as far from Catholicism in this regard as one might think.

Even though the New Testament clearly states that "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," and later that "the Word was made flesh and walked among us," they denied the identity of God and Jesus.

Near the end, they began their pitch about how Mormonism's power comes from the revelation of their modern prophet, whose revelation they take on faith supported by Scripture (whether or not they support it with the Book of Mormon itself, sort of a double-circularity of evidence, I forgot to ask). When I asked them how I could decide where to place my faith, given 800 million Hindus and 1.2 billion Muslims place their faith elsewhere, they couldn't give me answer.

Then they asked me to pray, and I noted that, in the name of science, I indeed started to pray on several occasions. I found that whenever I sincerely prayed to Jesus I slipped into a profoundly delusional state that lasted for days, potentially endangered my life, and has on occasion led to my admission to a psychiatric ward. So, perhaps understandably I do not pray any more, for fear of my sanity. I told them that if God exists, he knows my intention and so there's no need for me to say anything. They suggested that I was "praying wrong."

One thing I forget to hit them with was the notion that Peter was told he would found a church that would never die. Yet if the Catholic church is false, so was that prophecy, since the Catholic Church traces its foundation to Peter. Better luck remembering all this next time, I guess.

That is the end of my report.


It is amazing to me they were able to just shrug off the whole Book of Abraham being discovered. It was just the Book of Breathing from Egypt. It seems Joseph Smith wasn't such a great translator.

Besides, you would think archelogists would find SOME evidence for the civilizations the Book of Mormon describes.

[Azure]

You were part of the Mormon religion RandFan?

Interesting indeed. Some call it the worlds largest cult.

[RandFan]

You were part of the Mormon religion RandFan?

Interesting indeed. Some call it the worlds largest cult.20 years I was a believer. I'm a decendant of Mormon Pioneers and my one of my ancestors is mentioned in Docrine and Covenants which is part of the Mormon Canon and history of the early church and revelations.

It is a cult but then IMO the Catholic Church is the worlds largest Cult, depends on how you define Cult.

cult
n.


A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
The followers of such a religion or sect.
A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.


Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
The object of such devotion.
An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

[davefoc]

Not really no. The Catholic Church traces its foundation to Constantine.



I am not sure what you meant by that, RandFan. As a practical matter, Constantine is the man when it comes to getting Chrisitianity going in the direction of major world religion of course. But the Catholic Church very much promotes the idea it was established by Peter (unless I am really confused here). They've got pictures of the guy up the kazoo in the Vatican, they've got what was the largest Church in the world (and certainly one of the most spectacular places in the world) there named after him and he's listed as the first pope in very bold letters in Catholic pope lists.


I noticed that part of this discussion was about the holy trinity. Do you think it is possible you could explain this in words that are simple enough for a simple atheist to understand? Part of the problem here, no doubt, is that my mind starts to glaze over when I read this stuff, but I promise at least one paragraph of complete focus on anything you write concerning the issue.

[Katana]

Then they asked me to pray, and I noted that, in the name of science, I indeed started to pray on several occasions. I found that whenever I sincerely prayed to Jesus I slipped into a profoundly delusional state that lasted for days, potentially endangered my life, and has on occasion led to my admission to a psychiatric ward. So, perhaps understandably I do not pray any more, for fear of my sanity. I told them that if God exists, he knows my intention and so there's no need for me to say anything. They suggested that I was "praying wrong."
That is friggin' hilarious. Thank you for giving me a huge laugh along with my husband who read your OP over my shoulder and guffawed. Nice work! :D

[CplFerro]

That is friggin' hilarious. Thank you for giving me a huge laugh along with my husband who read your OP over my shoulder and guffawed. Nice work! :D

Er, no problem.

Genesis 1:26-27: "And God said, `Let us make man in our likeness...

Genesis 3:22: "Behold the man has become as one of us to know good and evil.

It's really rather silly to try and prove monotheism or polytheism from the Bible. Why would Christ go the the Garden of Gethsemane and plead with himself to let himself out of the crucification? It really does not make any logical sense.

Catholicism would explain your Genesis quotes as the Trinity (Godhead) referring to itself. Man was made in the image of the Trinity, after all, not in the image of the Creator alone.

Christ, the Creator, and the Holy Spirit are all distinct personalities of the same being, like little hand puppets talking to each other. To be authentic, part of Christ's humanity had to be a sense of alienation, hence his Gethsemane speech, and his asking his Father why he has been forsaken.

I can't explain it any clearer than that; you'll have to either research it for yourself (I recommend www.catholic.com), or accept the time-honoured Church response of "It's a Mystery."

[RandFan]

I am not sure what you meant by that, RandFan. As a practical matter, Constantine is the man when it comes to getting Chrisitianity going in the direction of major world religion of course. But the Catholic Church very much promotes the idea it was established by Peter (unless I am really confused here). Yes, the Catholic Church does promote this but what is their basis to make that claim?

They've got pictures of the guy up the kazoo in the Vatican, they've got what was the largest Church in the world (and certainly one of the most spectacular places in the world) there named after him and he's listed as the first pope in very bold letters in Catholic pope lists. None of this proves anything. The protestant "reformation" was in part a belief that the church needed to reform or it simply wasn't God's church. This lead to a major division of the church. These divisions see the church as having strayed from the truth or never having it in the first place. Many protestants see the Catholic church as "The Great Whore (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=great+whore)" foretold of in Revleations. The Catholic Church is seen as a perversion of Christianity and when you consider what Constantine did merging pagan and Christian religions and istituting graven images you can see how it can be argued that the Catholic Church was never God's Church. Not that I would argue that because I don't believe in God.

I noticed that part of this discussion was about the holy trinity. Do you think it is possible you could explain this in words that are simple enough for a simple atheist to understand?:D No.

Mormons don't hold the concept to be true. I never understood it. I think all attempts to explain the trinity are fataly flawed because the notion is not logically possible. The trinity is the equivilant of a square circle as far as I can tell. Though I'm told by those who do understand it that I don't know what I'm talking about. They could be correct.

Part of the problem here, no doubt, is that my mind starts to glaze over when I read this stuff, but I promise at least one paragraph of complete focus on anything you write concerning the issue.My eyes glaze over also.

Trinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity)

Within Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity states that God is a single Being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a perichoresis of three persons (personae, prosopa): Father (the Source, the Eternal Majesty); the Son (the eternal Logos or Word, incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth); and the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete or advocate). Since the 4th Century AD, in both Eastern and Western Christianity, this doctrine has been stated as "One God in Three Persons," all three of whom, as distinct and co-eternal "persons" or "hypostases," share a single Divine essence, being, or nature. Supporting the doctrine of the Trinity is known as Trinitarianism, and is opposed to the positions of Binitarianism (two deities/persons/aspects), and Unitarianism (one deity/person/aspect), which are held by some Christian groups. One being who is also 3 distinct and co-eternal entities.

The Father is God
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God

The Father is not Jesus
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is not the father.

Therefore:

A = G
B = G
C = G

A != B
B != C
C != A

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.png

Ever see an Escher Painting?

ceo_esq might be able to offer some help.

[RandFan]

Catholicism would explain your Genesis quotes as the Trinity (Godhead) referring to itself. Man was made in the image of the Trinity, after all, not in the image of the Creator alone.

Christ, the Creator, and the Holy Spirit are all distinct personalities of the same being, like little hand puppets talking to each other. To be authentic, part of Christ's humanity had to be a sense of alienation, hence his Gethsemane speech, and his asking his Father why he has been forsaken.

I can't explain it any clearer than that; you'll have to either research it for yourself (I recommend www.catholic.com) (http://www.catholic.com)), or accept the time-honoured Church response of "It's a Mystery." An answer doesn't mean that the answer is logical. (see my post above)

I'll stand by my position.

[davefoc]

RandFan wrote: Yes, the Catholic Church does promote this but what is their basis to make that claim?

I think the evidence leans to the idea that most of the stuff about Peter founding the Catholic Church and being charged by Jesus to do so is all just made up. I didn't mean to challenge that idea.

As to your Trinity discussion, that is more or less what I understand also, The writer of my favorite site about the history of Christianity sees the Arians that lost at Nicea as the promoters of at least a self consistent idea of the trinity and the idea that won as internally inconsistent. But being internally inconsistent does lend a sense of mystery to an idea that just straightforward, pull it out of your ass theology has difficulty competing with.

Trivia aside: According to Wikipedia Constantine was baptized by an Arian priest just before he died.

[I less than three logic]

Therefore:

A = G
B = G
C = G

A != B
B != C
C != A

Well, I'm with you, logically this makes no sense whatsoever. If A=G and B=G, then A=B. At least by any forms of logic I’m aware of. Of course, religious beliefs need not be logical.

[Z]

You do know you are doomed to eternal heck?

For some reason I read this as 'eternal hick'... I shudder at that thought. Worse than any religious notion of Hell. Think about it - eternal hick? ugh.

[ponderingturtle]

Well, I'm with you, logically this makes no sense whatsoever. If A=G and B=G, then A=B. At least by any forms of logic I’m aware of. Of course, religious beliefs need not be logical.

That depends on how you right it if all A is G, that does not mean all G is A. So if some G is A then some G can be not A and so be B and the same holds true for C.

Transmisson=Part of my car
Tires=Part of my Car

Transmission=|= Tires.

[Hyver]

You do know you are doomed to eternal heck?


Mormons don't really believe in heck. atleast not in the long run. Everyone but a select few go through a period not unlike pergatory and then get into some type of heaven of varying degrees of awesome. The select few who don't go with satan under their own free will and spend eternity outside the presence of God.

[Kopji]

There is a little tiny hell reserved for people who become apostates.

[Darth Rotor]

One thing I forget to hit them with was the notion that Peter was told he would found a church that would never die. Yet if the Catholic church is false, so was that prophecy, since the Catholic Church traces its foundation to Peter. Better luck remembering all this next time, I guess.

That is the end of my report.
Last I checked, the Catholic Church was still around.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

There is a little tiny hell reserved for people who become apostates.

Likewise under Islam, where apostates get special punishment.

DR

[RandFan]

That depends on how you right it if all A is G, that does not mean all G is A. So if some G is A then some G can be not A and so be B and the same holds true for C.

Transmisson=Part of my car
Tires=Part of my Car

Transmission=|= Tires. Yes, but we are not writing it that way.

Socrates is mortal, A = B not socrates is part mortal.

And it is not, God the father is part of God, it is God the Father is God.

[I less than three logic]

That depends on how you right it if all A is G, that does not mean all G is A. So if some G is A then some G can be not A and so be B and the same holds true for C.

Transmisson=Part of my car
Tires=Part of my Car

Transmission=|= Tires.
That seems like it would be more like:

A = Transmission
B = Tires
G = Set containing all parts of the car

Then you would get:

A ∈ G
B ∈ G

So of course A=B would not follow here.

[Azure]

20 years I was a believer. I'm a decendant of Mormon Pioneers and my one of my ancestors is mentioned in Docrine and Covenants which is part of the Mormon Canon and history of the early church and revelations.

It is a cult but then IMO the Catholic Church is the worlds largest Cult, depends on how you define Cult.



Well the Catholic Church is legitimate in my eyes because of their roots.

The Mormon Church IMO is pure BS, started by pure BS.

[RandFan]

Well the Catholic Church is legitimate in my eyes because of their roots. A pagan emperor seeks to unite his kingdom by uniting Pagan, Jewish and Christian beliefs and rituals and that makes it legitimate? I think you found a fallacy or two in there but I can't be certain. Tell me more about these roots and this legitimacy? Tell me what you mean by legitimate? "Legitimate" what? Martin Luther and the reformers might have something to say in regards to this legitimacy, whatever that is.

FWIW, Jews don't think Christianity is "legitimate" and they know a bit about the legitimacy of religion whose roots are founded on the Old Testament. I can tell you that they view catholicism in much the way you view Mormonism.

The Mormon Church IMO is pure BS, started by pure BS. No doubt, it had good example to follow.

[Jorghnassen]

Last time the Mormons came to my house was a few years ago, around Xmas, in the morning, two chicks, not bad looking. I wasn't completely awake, wondering what two chicks knocking on my door in the morning were doing. I looked them up and down a couple of times before I noticed the 'Later Days Saints' name tag on their chest. Then said I wasn't interested and closed the door. I'm not entirely sure I made the right choice.

[Azure]

A pagan emperor seeks to unite his kingdom by uniting Pagan, Jewish and Christian beliefs and rituals and that makes it legitimate? I think you found a fallacy or two in there but I can't be certain. Tell me more about these roots and this legitimacy? Tell me what you mean by legitimate? "Legitimate" what? Martin Luther and the reformers might have something to say in regards to this legitimacy, whatever that is.

Fair enough.

What sort of religion is legimate then?

FWIW, Jews don't think Christianity is "legitimate" and they know a bit about the legitimacy of religion whose roots are founded on the Old Testament. I can tell you that they view catholicism in much the way you view Mormonism.

And some people believe the Jewish religion is not legitimate because of their denial that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

No doubt, it had good example to follow.

Indeed.

[I less than three logic]

What sort of religion is legimate then?
Sun worship. :)

"I've begun worshipping the Sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the Sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate." - George Carlin

[RandFan]

What sort of religion is legimate then?The church of RandFan. We believe the female form is divine. We believe we'll have another beer. Tell me that ain't legitimate.

[RandFan]

Last time the Mormons came to my house was a few years ago, around Xmas, in the morning, two chicks, not bad looking. I wasn't completely awake, wondering what two chicks knocking on my door in the morning were doing. I looked them up and down a couple of times before I noticed the 'Later Days Saints' name tag on their chest. Then said I wasn't interested and closed the door. I'm not entirely sure I made the right choice.:D

[RandFan]

What sort of religion is legitimate then? This deserves a serious response. I can't answer that question because it is incomplete. What do you mean by legitimate? As an insurance auditor "legitimate" carries a couple of connotations that would apply to any church that had a Federal Tax Id and did not exclude any payroll, revenue or expenses that they were not allowed to exclude. If I were an IRS auditor I would be interested in legitimate deductions.

Since I am an atheist I don't have a basis for determining the legitimacy of a religion in a non-secular fashion.

And some people believe the Jewish religion is not legitimate because of their denial that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Exactly, it depends on POV.

[Azure]

This deserves a serious response. I can't answer that question because it is incomplete. What do you mean by legitimate? As an insurance auditor "legitimate" carries a couple of connotations that would apply to any church that had a Federal Tax Id and did not exclude any payroll, revenue or expenses that they were not allowed to exclude. If I were an IRS auditor I would be interested in legitimate deductions.


Well, you described the Catholic religion as illegitimate based on their roots, so maybe that is a good place to start.

Since I am an atheist I don't have a basis for determining the legitimacy of a religion in a non-secular fashion.

You were a Mormon for 20 years; I would say that gives you more then enough experience and insight to judge certain religions. :)

Exactly, it depends on POV.

True dat.

[Azure]

The church of RandFan. We believe the female form is divine. We believe we'll have another beer. Tell me that ain't legitimate.

Female?

:eek:

:D

[Azure]

Sun worship. :)

"I've begun worshipping the Sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the Sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate." - George Carlin

I agree.

Doesn't even require faith. Where do I sign up? :p

[RandFan]

Well, you described the Catholic religion as illegitimate based on their roots, so maybe that is a good place to start.Really? If I did then let me clarify to say that there is nothing about the formation of Catholisism to make it any more legitimate as a Christian religion than any other. If I were forced at gun point to make a choice and "none" was not one of my choices I would have to go with a protestant sect. But here is the rub, my background is protestant (Mormonism bears a very strong resemblence to protestant churches) so I'm biased. I would also like to know what exactly is meant by "legitimate". I'm still a bit confused.

You were a Mormon for 20 years; I would say that gives you more then enough experience and insight to judge certain religions. :) I no longer hold a world view that would give me any basis.


If by legitimate you mean the true church then I would say none of them.
If by legitimate you mean true to their beginnings, then again, I would venture a guess that none of them are. All churches have evolved. The Catholic Church of today looks nothing like the disparate groups of various Christian sects roaming around before Constantine. Those sects looked quite a bit different from the various sects roaming around before Paul. Christianity today looks nothing like Christianity circa 50AD
If by legitimate you mean true to the tenants of the bible I can only say, not in a million years. The Bible is too contradictory and convoluted. Why do you think there are so many divisions?So, I would have to know what basis I'm to judge this legitimacy. I have no problem with tax status or legitimate deductions or exclusions but when it comes to non-secular matters I'm at a complete loss.

[RandFan]

Female?

:eek:

:DWooosh right over my head.

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, but we are not writing it that way.

Socrates is mortal, A = B not socrates is part mortal.

And it is not, God the father is part of God, it is God the Father is God.


Chris is mortal, C=B, therefor Chris is Socrates?

[Tanstaafl]

The church of RandFan. We believe the female form is divine. We believe we'll have another beer. Tell me that ain't legitimate.

Sounds like a close relative of FSMism.

Stripper factory and beer volcano... now that's heaven!

[RandFan]

Chris is mortal, C=B, therefor Chris is Socrates?Yes, but mortal isn't defined as a single being. God is. Remember MONOtheistic. To be fair, I could have used a better example.

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, but mortal isn't defined as a single being. God is. Remember MONOtheistic. To be fair, I could have used a better example.

And how can you say that a single being can not have multipal personalities?

The definition does not seem to preclude parts, so that they are all part of god but none of them individualy are the entirety. THis opens the possibility for even more things that are god and are not in the trinity though.

[RandFan]

And how can you say that a single being can not have multipal personalities?

The definition does not seem to preclude parts, so that they are all part of god but none of them individualy are the entirety. THis opens the possibility for even more things that are god and are not in the trinity though.It is not said that Christ is a part of God. It is said that Christ is god. I don't say that the transmission is a car. I say that the transmission is part of a car. I think the problem is that it must be explained what is meant by saying "is god". I'll leave it to someone who is more adept at this issue than I.