CT's seem to get their ideas from popular fiction [Archive]

Graham2001

21st August 2006, 08:49 AM

This is my second post on this particular forum and I thought I'd start by introducing myself properly.

Some people on this forum have seen my occasional posts on bautforum.com under the same name I'm using here.

Suffice to say I'm a 32 year old with a stong distaste for the sloppy thinking that permeates the so-called 'open minds' of the 'New Age'.

I'm also somewhat of a cynic.

Anyway, down to some sort of business. A couple of years ago I started a thread on the bautforum (see: tinyurl.com/rgwzm) in which I discussed possible links between the Moon Hoax conspiracy theory and an editorial by J W Cambell jr that appeared in the November 1969 issue of Analog.

I've also noticed that Moon Hoax CTs like to point to popular fiction (Namely the film, "Capricorn One") as support to their claims. And in the case of 11/09/01 CTs they also seem to get their ideas from popular fiction.

In this case one TV series and two films seem to be major influences.

The pilot episode of 'Lone Gunmen' seems to be the source of all those remote control aircraft claims.

'Long Kiss Goodnight' presents the idea of Government officials conniving at fake terrorism (with Muslim patsies) so they can get a funding increase, it also makes a 'throwaway' claim (probably drawn from actual Conspiracy theories now subsumed into the 11/09/01 CT)that the CIA let the '93 WTC bombing go ahead for precisely this reason.

Similarly the LC charge that the 2001 WTC attack was carried out to cover up the theft of vast sums of gold (160 Billion to 1 Trillion $) clearly derives from the plotline of the first 'Die Hard' movie.

I'll leave this here with a question, has anyone else noticed this particular tendency for CTs to draw their ideas from popular fiction (both film & written) and in what form did it take?

ryanebelhar

21st August 2006, 09:06 AM

That and people seem to think that "v for vendetta" and "the Matrix" trilogy are all real

gumboot

21st August 2006, 09:07 AM

Welcome to the forums!

It sounds like you're something of a veteran already, I think you'll fit right in here... :D

I thoroughly agree, popular culture is like the new religion for these people - notice how the 9/11 Deniers put forward a public figure like Charlie Sheen, despite the fact that Sheen's most distinguished skill is his ability to lie to people and get them to believe it (and some would argue he's not even that great at that!).

For the record, I mean no disrespect to Mr Sheen, the "distinguished skill" I refer to is one I myself have. It is commonly referred to as "acting".

Further to speculating on popular culture that reflects or influences woo ideas, what I find even more terrifying is when people actually present such work as PART OF THEIR ARGUMENT.

Capricorn One is one example, I've come across. Others woud be "What The Bleep Do We Know" and "Wag The Dog".

It's bad enough to base your reality on fiction. It's a bit scarier when you present fiction as a key componant of your intellectual argument.

An example would be a conversation with someone who was cynical about a given war that was going on. Someone would argue that the entire thing was just a little too convenient, and was a distraction for whatever other event was occuring that the CTer was convinced was far more important (of course, in most cases, it isn't).

I'd respond by commenting on the absurdity of such a notion, citing pre-existing tensions in the area, UN involvement, obligations for international intervention, whatever. A common response?

"Haven't you seen that film "Wag The Dog"? Hello"

Un-believable.

Any other works of fiction people often hear cited as evidence?

-Andrew

Arkan_Wolfshade

21st August 2006, 09:12 AM

Hellbound

21st August 2006, 09:30 AM

Indirectly, Tom Clancy novels. I've never seen them cite one straight up (probably they view him as a gov't shill since he is pro-military) but they seem to like his convoluted schemes that always work for the baddies.

These also seem to be a major source for the ideas people have of military technology and what it is capable of. The same applies to explosives and gunfire (i.e.-the big showy orange fireball and the 9mm throwing a 250lb. man two feet backwards).

Having familiarity with some military assets, and a familiarity with military demolitions in particular, I find it funny most of the time.

Arkan_Wolfshade

21st August 2006, 09:32 AM

These also seem to be a major source for the ideas people have of military technology and what it is capable of. The same applies to explosives and gunfire (i.e.-the big showy orange fireball and the 9mm throwing a 250lb. man two feet backwards).

Having familiarity with some military assets, and a familiarity with military demolitions in particular, I find it funny most of the time.

Ugh, don't get me started. It's almost as bad as in movies when they show the ".45" from the muzzle end and it is obviously a .22 cal replica of a 1911 and not a real .45 cal.

Loss Leader

21st August 2006, 10:40 AM

That and people seem to think that "v for vendetta" and "the Matrix" trilogy are all real

I don't know where you're getting your information, but I happen to have a secret source who knows FOR A FACT that the scene where Natalie Portman gets her head shaved in V For Vendetta was 100% REAL! Also, and I don't know how this fits into the conspiracy theories as such, she's Jewish. And she was really good in Garden State. Oh, and Beautiful Girls. And the rap video on Saturday Night Live. Man, I need a hobby.

gumboot

21st August 2006, 10:42 AM

I don't know where you're getting your information, but I happen to have a secret source who knows FOR A FACT that the scene where Natalie Portman gets her head shaved in V For Vendetta was 100% REAL! Also, and I don't know how this fits into the conspiracy theories as such, she's Jewish. And she was really good in Garden State. Oh, and Beautiful Girls. And the rap video on Saturday Night Live. Man, I need a hobby.

Natalie Portman is good in everything...;)

...or nothing.:boxedin:

-Andrew

gumboot

21st August 2006, 10:47 AM

These also seem to be a major source for the ideas people have of military technology and what it is capable of. The same applies to explosives and gunfire (i.e.-the big showy orange fireball and the 9mm throwing a 250lb. man two feet backwards).

Having familiarity with some military assets, and a familiarity with military demolitions in particular, I find it funny most of the time.

You're probably already familar with it, but if not you might enjoy this (http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/) website.

-Andrew

Hellbound

21st August 2006, 10:48 AM

You're probably already familar with it, but if not you might enjoy this (http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/) website.

-Andrew

I've seen similar, but not this one :)

Brainster

21st August 2006, 11:38 AM

Any other works of fiction people often hear cited as evidence?

Three Days of the Condor.
Die Hard with a Vengeance (this is the source of the gold story, not Die Hard)

And of course:

Loose Change

azazal

21st August 2006, 11:44 AM

Die Hard with a Vengeance (this is the source of the gold story, not Die Hard)

Ahh, see I was going there too, but remember in Die Hard the robbers made it appear as though they were a terrorist organization that was holding the buildings occupants as hostage, while in fact they were there to steal the bonds held in the safe. So he is using Die Hard to show how terrorism was used to mask a simple robbery.

Bronze Dog

21st August 2006, 11:54 AM

I've seen a fair number of bad 1984 analogies in my day.

chacal

21st August 2006, 12:14 PM

Don't forget special agent Mulder.

gumboot

21st August 2006, 12:37 PM

Ahh, see I was going there too, but remember in Die Hard the robbers made it appear as though they were a terrorist organization that was holding the buildings occupants as hostage, while in fact they were there to steal the bonds held in the safe. So he is using Die Hard to show how terrorism was used to mask a simple robbery.

Obviously Bush is a Die Hard fan...

Die Hard:
-Terrorism used as front
-Heroic people inside win the day (inspiration for UA93)
-Big building

Die Hard 2:
-Set in Dulles Airport - where AA77 departed from
-Involves aircraft "falling from the sky"
-Holly calls John from an airphone
-Nefarious Pentagon involvement in illegal activities (drugs)
-Terrorist interfer with Aircraft electronics (inspiration for transponders)

Die Hard: With a Vengeance
-Stealing of Gold
-Bombs, bombs, and more bombs
-New York

And you want final proof? I understand Bruce Willis is a strong supporter of US military operations - in fact I hear he applied to join the US Army and go to Afghanistan, but they said he was too old :(.

He made "Tears of the Sun" specifically to motivate people to "do something" about bad people like OBL.

He is clearly a shill for the gubmint.

-Andrew

Mashuna

21st August 2006, 01:10 PM

How about the most recent series of 24, where the POTUS is behind a terrorist plot with the secret aim of gaining control of oil supplies for the US (or something along those lines)?

Pardalis

21st August 2006, 01:15 PM

Obviously Bush is a Die Hard fan...

Just take a look at the plot outline for Die Hard 4...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0337978/

:boxedin:

Bronze Dog

21st August 2006, 01:47 PM

Just take a look at the plot outline for Die Hard 4...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0337978/

:boxedin:

They're onto me!

defaultdotxbe

21st August 2006, 02:30 PM

i think the notion of using movies as evidence came from The Faculty

"what if all the movies they make are just so we wouldnt believe it if it really happened?"

brodski

21st August 2006, 02:42 PM

Die Hard 2:
-Set in Dulles Airport - where AA77 departed from
-Involves aircraft "falling from the sky"
-Holly calls John from an airphone
-Nefarious Pentagon involvement in illegal activities (drugs)
-Terrorist interfer with Aircraft electronics (inspiration for transponders)

(bolding mine)
Be fair Andrew, even the loosers don't believe everything they see from Hollywood, they don't believe that air-phones are real... ;)

gumboot

21st August 2006, 02:52 PM

(bolding mine)
Be fair Andrew, even the loosers don't believe everything they see from Hollywood, they don't believe that air-phones are real... ;)

No, no, Bush got his ideas from Die Hard. He saw the airphone used in Die Hard 2 and decided to integrate it into his master plan.

Unfortunately the wiley CTers know better.

-Andrew

Bronze Dog

21st August 2006, 02:58 PM

Obviously, the government could have pulled off "Executive Decision," but because they didn't, we know they were in on it. ;)

Big Les

21st August 2006, 04:07 PM

I've had that Lone Gunmen episode quoted at me as though it somehow proved the US government was "in on it". And Clancy. Truly bizarre.

brodski

21st August 2006, 04:17 PM

No, no, Bush got his ideas from Die Hard. He saw the airphone used in Die Hard 2 and decided to integrate it into his master plan.

Unfortunately the wiley CTers know better.

-Andrew
I had a conversation about this with a friend who believes in 9/11 CT's (I've managed to downgrade him from MIHOP to LIHOP, which by it's nature is harder ti debunk) anyway, he claimed that the phone calls proved that 9/11 was fake, decease "mobile phones don't work in planes" I replied that 1) some do and 2) they had air-phones "you know, like the ones they had in Die hard 2". His reply was "come on, learn to separate fact from fiction" (!) :eek: . :D

defaultdotxbe

21st August 2006, 04:25 PM

I've had that Lone Gunmen episode quoted at me as though it somehow proved the US government was "in on it". And Clancy. Truly bizarre.

yeah, it tops out killtowns "smoking guns" too, lol

gumboot

21st August 2006, 04:33 PM

Johnny C.

21st August 2006, 05:07 PM

brodski

21st August 2006, 05:55 PM

The whole idea that the media is a government pawn has some roots in the film V for Vandetta. Despite it being a recent movie, I have heard JDX and other Loosers spewing out the same rhetoric found in that movie. It's a recent movie, but it's based on a book which is 20 years old, which was drawing on the political reality of a large portion of the European population. The crazy idea isn't that governments can control the media through censorship to further propaganda, the crazy idea is that governments can do that without the public realizing. In "V for Vendetta" everyone is perfectly aware that they are living in a totalitarian regime.

Earl The Tall

21st August 2006, 09:59 PM

So soon do we forget the movie that Blew the roof off Kennedy assignation.

JFK.

Oooooorrrrr it would have if it wasn't historically inaccurate.

valis

22nd August 2006, 01:06 AM

So soon do we forget the movie that Blew the roof off Kennedy assignation.

JFK.

Oooooorrrrr it would have if it wasn't historically inaccurate.

I remember a customer telling me that he had never realised how much we had all been misled about JFK's assasination until he saw that movie. Since he was one of my best customers I bit my tounge.

A bit of a derail but.....

I am baffeled by how they can tell things by 'common sense' or look at photos like the endless, or at least seemingly endless, flight 93 plume photo discussion, and just 'tell' that they 'don't look right'. As if being interested in a subject makes you an instant expert.

Am I the only person on Earth that realizes how many things he is ignorant of?

sleahead

22nd August 2006, 02:34 AM

In this video, many of the above films are mentioned, but it contains the first reference to Goodfellas in connection with 9/11 that I know of.

http://www.8thestate.com/

Filmed in the lobby of the hotel at the Chicago "Truth" Conference, the video is entitled "Richard Grove talks with Webster Tarpley", but it is dominated by the CT ravings of Grove. It's worth a watch to hear Grove spewing all sorts of wackiness, but the film references start at 13:00 for those who have already listened to all the 9/11 wackiness the can handle. A couple of other highlights:

At 02:58, there is quite a loud bang. Now for troofers, bang=explosion=bomb. Amazingly, no troofer turns a hair.

At 17:04, we get the last shot of Webster Tarpley. The video is only half way through, but even Tarpley can't listen to Grove any more and seems to disappear.

MRC_Hans

22nd August 2006, 02:46 AM

Well, the blurring between fact and fiction is not limited to CTers. Hollywood creeps right in on actual TV reporting. Am I the only one to notice that newsreels from the recent Lebanon brawl had the explosions carefully syncronized to the pictures of the blasts? You see an explosion a mile away, and the sound comes right there with it, not the five seconds later that it would do in real life.

If even news reporting is doctored to fit fantasy land, how are people going to know what is right :nope: :mad: ?

Hans

Brainache

22nd August 2006, 03:37 AM

If only more of them watched A Beautiful Mind.
They might get an idea of how convincing paranoid delusions can be.

Graham2001

22nd August 2006, 06:59 AM

yeah, it tops out killtowns "smoking guns" too, lol

Personally I prefer the Moon Hoax Believers (MHB) term 'whistle blow' when describing the belief that something in fiction is an 'encoded' message revealing a 'truth' that 'they' want to supress but I fully understand your point.

When the "X-Files" reached Australia I distinctly remember one letter which referred to the series as "...dramatised accounts of real but suppressed events..." (Quote may not be 100% accurate as I am working from memory.)

Bronze Dog

22nd August 2006, 07:33 AM

I had a conversation about this with a friend who believes in 9/11 CT's (I've managed to downgrade him from MIHOP to LIHOP, which by it's nature is harder ti debunk) anyway, he claimed that the phone calls proved that 9/11 was fake, decease "mobile phones don't work in planes" I replied that 1) some do and 2) they had air-phones "you know, like the ones they had in Die hard 2". His reply was "come on, learn to separate fact from fiction" (!) :eek: . :D
Reminds me of a "True Tale of an Induhvidual." Someone was backing out of a parking space and got into a collision with the narrator. Turns out he wasn't looking back when he reversed. When the narrator informed her(?) of the purpose of the rearview mirror, the induhvidual replied, "They only do that in the movies!"

Foolmewunz

22nd August 2006, 08:08 AM

The worst (and we have a number here that could compete for that honor) of the movies/tv/books under discussion have one thing over the "facts" of someone like ChristopherA... They took the time to edit and rewrite their plots so that they at least made a marginal amount of sense. This is why the good lord gave us rewrites!
Without the luxury of calling in someone from the Writers Guild, these guys get caught in the stupidity of their plot convolutions and can't dig themselves out. Face it, if you paid good money to get into a screening of "The World According to Killtown", you'd be pelting the screen with popcorn before the title credits had finished. (Actually in a more serious vein - the opposite is the effect on the pseudo-serious "studies". Some of these guys HAVE taken the time to at least structure their silliness and prepare fallback plots.)