Do TV psychics really think they have powers?

[socialsniper]

I'm sure this question has been asked time and again, but I was wondering what the consensus was on whether the TV psychics and other famous woo-woo names, like Jon Edwards and Sylvia Brown, really think they have these powers.

Randi is always saying that 'they need to believe', but is there any part of them that knows they're just lying to themselves?

[TheGuyThat]

Is there any part of you that knows they are lying to themselves...No!
Scepticism isn't about knowing there is no such thing, it is about finding the true answers. Not forging your own little, lets pay out celebritys that say they have powers club.

Lol, just messin with ya

[socialsniper]

Do you remember the bit in Se7en where Brad Pitt was talking to Kevin Spacey in the car saying "Do mad people know they're mad, do they sit around saying 'I'm so mad today'" - or words to that effect. That's basically what I'm asking I suppose.

I really don't know what they think - do you?!

[TheGuyThat]

Powers aren't as absurd as you may think. On another thread there is a guy that is wondering whether he is precognitive or not, and one of the examples he sited was that he and a friend were riding home and they both took different routes, he had an overwhelming feeling that his friend was in trouble, and amazingly enough his friend was hit by a car. I mean, ofcourse this has many possibilities such as coincidence and all that jazz, but there was one comment I liked. The person said, who knows you could of picked up on some little subconscious clue, like that the friend was being slightly reckless etc and this caused you to worry.
If someone actually picked up on small subtleties like that, to a degree that was accurate, would it not be precognitive. Sure, its not magical, but nothing is, its all about cause and affect. If you believe in cause and effect then you should realise that precognition is possible, if one picks up what certain things mean and what will result because of those influences. Precognitions IS possible we all know that, that is not what we argue about, rather we argue about whether it is practical. I personally dont really have a conclusive answer on that, is precognition possible yes (if you believe in cause and effect) is it practical, we shall need a double blind test to conclusively say.

[TheGuyThat]

Do you remember the bit in Se7en where Brad Pitt was talking to Kevin Spacey in the car saying "Do mad people know they're mad, do they sit around saying 'I'm so mad today'" - or words to that effect. That's basically what I'm asking I suppose.

I really don't know what they think - do you?!

I'm sure there was a time were they questioned what they felt etc, but I'm pretty sure after trying to convince others they have convinced themselves in the process. In an attempt to belong, they most likely picked up the closest theory that fit there scenario and started to believe in it full tilt and shape themselves to fit the box.
Though obviously some out there are just obviously lying for the quick buck, but most I do believe think they have something. Some may not believe they have everything they say they have, but that is how they try to convince others that what they really do experience is mystical, whether or not it is, who knows? In some cases atleast I am sure that deep down they don't even know.

[socialsniper]

I agree. We know that intuition, precog. or whatever you want to call it really exists, in varying forms and degrees. Cold readers, con-men, interogators, etc. all use this to their advantage.

This kind of ties in with the Fraudulent Mediums Act mentioned on Swift a while back. It would be a interesting legal case trying to prove where people were fraudulent or delusional.

[Ersby]

There are certainly people out there who think that they have psychic powers, simply because they're good at guessing things. I could be one of those people, if I was so inclined. The other day I was watching this guy playing pool and he was about to make a break and I knew the ball was going to jump up and off the table. Which it did. (And it rolled under our table OMG!) Some people would put it down to psi or even intuition, but I reckon it was more to do with the type of person he was and the motions he was making with his arm as he lined up his shot.

I used to give John Edward the benefit of the doubt and think he was deluded, until I read a transcript of a post 9-11 reading he did in which he clearly asks leading questions throughout the reading before making his guess that this was linked to the WTC. Which he did in classic style: "They're showing me "eleven"." It was so blatant it could only be deliberate.

[Gbob]

I think the answer is both yes and no, based upon my own experience. Years and years ago, I spent a great deal of time on the road hitchiking around the country. Now, when you just have a pack on your back there isn't much you won't do for some money. I had just spent a week with a crazed goth chick at a Renn fest in KC. She sent me off with some I Ching cards.

Well, there I was in Florida looking for a way to make some money. Why not do fortune telling? I practiced for a few days, and developed a patter based upon I Ching being a "binary code of the universe". I threw out enough psuedo science to take in the rubes, and started doing some readings at a truck stop. I would get a couple of "hits" here and there, but the amazing thing I discovered was that the more I believed my own BS, the better I became. I threw myself into it and spent my winter as a fortune teller.

Now if you were to ask me at the time if I had psychic powers, I would have answered in the afirmative. I was basicly using every cheap carny trick on the planet, but I would have countered with the anecdotal evidence of when my readings were correct. Well. you know the score. Like every woo we see here, I would use bad logic.

Even when a Woo is cheating and fixing the deck, he ro she still believes in their heart that they have powers. It's like mthod acting. You can't play the part unless you can fool yourself as much as you can fool a mark.

[chillzero]

... We know that intuition, precog. or whatever you want to call it really exists, in varying forms and degrees. ....

Do we really?

Intuition is a completely different thing from precognition, and I don't think that precognition is an accepted fact at all, as you are both presenting it.

[brettDbass]

... "Do mad people know they're mad, do they sit around saying 'I'm so mad today'" - or words to that effect. That's basically what I'm asking I suppose.
On that topic (and that one alone), yes, some do.

[Luke T.]

I'm with Ersby. I think most, if not all, of the more famous psychics know they are frauds, also known as "open".

There are plenty of people who are deluded and believe they really are psychic, a.k.a. "closed".

But I guess I've just looked at these more well-known psychics too closely and have pretty much gone past skepticism to straight-up kick 'em in the nuts opinion. There is just too much to suggest they know they are lying out their butts.

It also helps to have read M. Lamar Keene's The Psychic Mafia.

It is my opinion that people like Sylvia Browne believe in God just as much as Randi does. ;)

There are plenty of well-meaning people who really believe themselves to be psychic. Everybody wants to feel special, you know?

But I think to actually get ahead in the business, you have to at some point realize you are full of crap.

We all want a little mystery in our lives. Something to distract from the mundane. But the only mystery left for me about the whole psychic business is how these frauds are able to sleep at night.

[TheGuyThat]

I have powers! Give me money!
But that does require work, so forget about it!
I guess we could all sort of claim it and score it big but I don't think I could put my name to that kind of imbarassment, especially if I'm fake. Atleast they are entertaining people and the funny thing is, they aren't convincing anyone really. Some philosopher dude once said something like this, generally a person will accept any evidence no matter how thin to prove what they want to believe, and if there is solid evidence to something they don't want to believe no matter how valid they still wont believe it. They are really only converting the already converted. So its all in good fun, all the luck to em, that is ofcourse IF they are fake

[Luke T.]

I have powers! Give me money!
But that does require work, so forget about it!
I guess we could all sort of claim it and score it big but I don't think I could put my name to that kind of imbarassment, especially if I'm fake. Atleast they are entertaining people and the funny thing is, they aren't convincing anyone really. Some philosopher dude once said something like this, generally a person will accept any evidence no matter how thin to prove what they want to believe, and if there is solid evidence to something they don't want to believe no matter how valid they still wont believe it. They are really only converting the already converted. So its all in good fun, all the luck to em, that is ofcourse IF they are fake


If you think it is all in good fun, I strongly suggest you read this topic (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=52101).

Every page.

[Jocky]

It's like method acting. You can't play the part unless you can fool yourself as much as you can fool a mark.

Good analogy GBob, ISWYM. However, an actor only has to fool themselves for the duration of the performance. Someone who does this could still be an 'open' psychic - knowing deep down that it isn't for real, just like an actor does, but not allowing themselves to acknowledge this while on stage in order to make the performance as convincing as possible.

By the sound of it, you were a 'closed' psychic during your I Ching episode - you hadn't privately admitted to yourself that you were making it up. If you would like to talk about it, I'd be interested to know the circumstances which resulted in you realising that you were not in fact psychic at all.

[Gbob]

Well, I would say it's possible to be both a believer and a non-believer at the same time. Part of me knew I was a fraud. I switched to coins as opposed to sticks when I realized it would be easier to get the desired result with some slight of hand. I wasn't above looking for visual clues, and exploiting them. A tan line on the finger indicating a ring, kind of clothing worn, etc.

At the same time, however, I did believe that I could offer insight, and that the I Ching could reveal patterns that were reflective of the marks...er...clients life. Also there would be sudden moments when I would come up with something that would hit. For example, let's say I "saw" that the female client was pregnant. Now obviously I was picking up on some subtle clues in the back of my mind, but at the time it seemed like a real revelation. I don't think you can sell it unless you force yourself to believe. The mentalist routine requires being able to make good guesses, and to sell those guesses.

Point being, you can be a fraud and still believe.

What changed? Damned if I can point to any one moment. When you're ont he road, everything seems to be magic. It's only when the dust has been washed off that you can re-enter the real world of rationality.

It would be so much better if I could say that I met skeptic who persuaded me with logic. I would say that the truth is that I'm just a natural cynic, and I got really good at spotting folks who were as big a fraud as I was. I'm sure that if I hadn't been an athiest and skeptic before becoming a Woo, I never would have been able to leave the life.

As for how a fraud can sleep at night? Remember that the psychic nut job isn't any more of a quack than the psychatrist with a wall full of degrees. If I helped someone, I felt good....and most people in the racket believe they are helping. (folks who give medical advice or lean to holistic health are another story)

[Ersby]

I would imagine that it starts with an unwitting self-delusion that they find brings comfort to those around them. Then, as they rely more and more on trickery, they may find themselves unwilling to admit the truth (to themselves or to others) for fear of undoing any good they may have done.

One thing that bothered me about the pro-medium camp was when I was a poster on the tvtalkshows board. People there would admit that John Edward or whoever displayed no psychic powers on the LKL shows (for whatever reason: too rushed, not psi conducive, too many spirits) yet JE was there to display his psychic powers and he came back many times. I wondered why they had no problem with him putting himself forward as a psychic in a situation where psychic powers wouldn't work.

[Forty-Two]

John Edward can hear spirits, but the spirits are cold reading (http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/narbonic/series.php?view=archive&chapter=9868).

(This post was not intended to be serious in any way; I just wanted to link to a relevant week from my very favorite webcomic, Narbonic (http://www.narbonic.com/).)

[RSLancastr]

I agree with Luke T's post 100%.

[gdtbiker]

I would imagine that it starts with an unwitting self-delusion that they find brings comfort to those around them. Then, as they rely more and more on trickery, they may find themselves unwilling to admit the truth (to themselves or to others) for fear of undoing any good they may have done.
[snip]

This reminds me of my college days. I started palm reading originally as a device to meet girls. I studied the "art" just enough to sound learned. It worked. I met chicks and I got to hold their hands! :cool: But I was also very good at reading body language. After a time, I had so many people tell me that I was amazing that I really started to figure I had something going more than just fun. Of course, in the beginning, I was also aware that you can tell a lot about a person from their hands alone - things like calluses were a dead giveaway that they used their hands for some sort of manual labor, etc. But that talent became like second nature to me and I no longer was totally aware that I was taking physical clues into account.

But when a close relative's wife told me she married the wrong man (implying that I was the right one), well,... that's what shook me back to reality. :boggled:

This is just my personal anecdote to add to the fray. :)

[VoloVersio]

My best friend worked as a psychic for a couple months, though she eventually quit because the metaphysical book store she worked in was going to the dogs.

Her perspective is that she actually doesn't have any supernatural psychic powers that allows her to percieve the future like you would look into a crystal ball. Instead, psychics are merely intuitive people. She also thinks the name "spiritual counselor" would be a more appropriate title.

Her view of TV psychics like John Edwards and Slyvia Brown, however, is that they're all snake-oil salesmen.

[RSLancastr]

But when a close relative's wife told me she married the wrong man (implying that I was the right one), well,... that's what shook me back to reality. :boggled:I'm afraid I didn't quite follow that...

[Azrael 5]

There can be no way John Edward believes he's real! For instance does he believe that "theyre drawing an A above your head"(why can't spirits draw the full name?)
"He's giving me the name Bert,he's showing me Sesame Street reference" Nah he knows full well what he's doing;it's worrying that his wife and kids-and those of other mediums-buy the same BS!

[Fundamentally Flawed]

There can be no way John Edward believes he's real! For instance does he believe that "theyre drawing an A above your head"(why can't spirits draw the full name?)

I've brought up this point to many people, myself. I'm usually told, "You just don't understand how it works!". Actually, thanks to folks like James Randi, I understand exactly how it works.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who fill in the blanks when someone makes a vauge statement don't realize how vauge the statement was. People just want to believe, I suppose. As long as people want to believe, there will always be someone there giving them something to believe in...
For a low, low fee, of course.

[Mr. Skinny]

There can be no way John Edward believes he's real! For instance does he believe that "theyre drawing an A above your head"(why can't spirits draw the full name?)
"He's giving me the name Bert,he's showing me Sesame Street reference" Nah he knows full well what he's doing;it's worrying that his wife and kids-and those of other mediums-buy the same BS!
It's really a "V". John Edward was diagnosed in kindergarten with "over, under, sideways, down" dyslexia. :)

[Azrael 5]

It's really a "V". John Edward was diagnosed in kindergarten with "over, under, sideways, down" dyslexia. :)

Like a brother,cousin,older male to your side syndrome! ;)

[The Atheist]

I agree with Luke T's post 100%.

Count me in on that, too.

And as to sleeping at night - how does any fraud, criminal, wife-beater or other piece of **** sleep at night?

The same way as psychics, I imagine, with a smile on their face.

[The Atheist]

I started palm reading originally as a device to meet girls.

Damn, why didn't I think of that?

Probably would have been a lot more successful than my free breast cancer checks.

[Jocky]

Many thanks for the reply GBob - very interesting.

I would say it's possible to be both a believer and a non-believer at the same time.

Sounds like a most uncomfortable fence to be sitting on, that one. So on the basis of your experience it is possible for somebody to be knowingly using cold reading techniques and sleight of hand, while at the same time truly believing that they have psychic powers!

Boy, do such people sound like they need psychiatric help :boggled:

[socialsniper]

Do we really?

Intuition is a completely different thing from precognition, and I don't think that precognition is an accepted fact at all, as you are both presenting it.

I know what you mean. I was saying that it's a semantics thing, some people call it this, some call it that.

But you're right, we should use the correct vocab. to avoid confusion. Ticking off duly noted.

[RemieV]

I also have experience in the powers of observation. I once met someone who really impressed me with playing cards. It was a guy who could point at a card and say what it was even if it was face-down. Even if he didn't watch the shuffling process, or the laying down. Even if he stayed on the other side of the room for everything I did with the cards. Even if there were ten cards face-down. Even if I didn't know what the cards were either.

It was very strange. So I decided to find out how long it would take me to learn to do the same thing. The answer: for complete accuracy with one particular card, about three minutes.

What I discovered was that every card is on the planet is marked. Some are printed a little off-center, some have a black mark in a certain corner, some are creased just a tad. In an attempt to be slightly more impressive than he was, I memorized the back of every card in a full deck (which took about five hours).It's all about the observation skills ;)

[CLD]

In an attempt to be slightly more impressive than he was, I memorized the back of every card in a full deck (which took about five hours).

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/9091/remie1zr4.jpg

:-) !!!!

[RSLancastr]

I have an online friend who does (in-person) tarot readings for a living.

She tells me that she definitely does cold reading "to get the reading started", but believes that the rest of the reading is due to "the power of the tarot".

I guess this same strange way of thinking could be used by some people who believe themselves to be psychic.

Do I think that Sylvia Browne, John Edward, James vanPraagh et al fall into this category?

No.