Why Bush referred to Israel "As a Jewish state"

[hisham]

Why Bush referred to Israel "As a Jewish state" at his University of South Carolina
speech.
http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isreport/may03/freeing.html (http://)
Finally, we cannot fail to comment on the "all sides ... have duties" section of the speech, in which Israel was exhorted to "stop settlement activity" and the Arab nations to "fight terror in all forms, and recognize and state the obvious once and for all: Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state at peace with its neighbors." The juxtaposition of terror and settlements is as odious as it is commonplace, but attention should be paid to a significant new formulation here: "as a Jewish state."


Also, israeli foreign minister said it
is important for Israel to demand that the US
include the Jewish state clause in the Bush
speech, and in any case, he would make sure
Sharon used the phrase in his Aqaba speech.

[max]

Hisham
You didn't say what your point is. If you are offended by bush saying jewish state, then why do Arabs say muslim states and just stop to think how many muslim countries there are. And what will Palestine be known as, christian?

[hisham]

Originally posted by max
Hisham
You didn't say what your point is. If you are offended by bush saying jewish state, then why do Arabs say muslim states and just stop to think how many muslim countries there are. And what will Palestine be known as, christian?
You are right Max,
And am against all religious states, but now I can't understand how they refer to Israel as democratic state and now are recalling to a religious state.
And is this will help the peace process, creating and forcing religious states in the region?

[Cleopatra]

Hmmmmm Maybe he means that they won't accept the return of the arab refugees but this is just a personal interpretation.

It hasn't to do with religion per se but with the return of the refugees.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Hmmmmm Maybe he means that they won't accept the return of the arab refugees but this is just a personal interpretation.

It hasn't to do with religion per se but with the return of the refugees.
Cleopatra,
do you work for haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=299626&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y) :
:D

The mention of the Jewish state is seen in Jerusalem
as a formula to deny the right of return of
Palestinian refugees to inside Israel.

Now seriously, but if this is the reason, do you accept to live under religious state system?

[Cleopatra]

I haven't seen Haaretz's article before posting. I happen to look close at the matter for many years now and I know the key words that both sides use.

If I accept to live in a religious state?

First of all, Israel is not religious the way Islamic countries are. Greece is a religious state also but it's a lovely , sunny country many Syrians enjoy to live in :)

Both countries are not religious the way Islamic countries are and both PMs are less religious than President Bush.

edited because it had to be edited!!!!!!!!

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Both countries are not religious the way Islamic countries are and both PMs are less religious than President Bush.

Religions are religions what ever they are, when they are recalling for " a Jewish state" then it will be worst
:)

[Cleopatra]

Hisham I don't want to sound rude but I don't think that you have understood how serious is what President Bush has said

The whole issue is NOT about religion.

"The Jewish State" was a slogan since Ben Gurion's period implying that Israel will never accept the refugees back because , according to that theory , if the refugees returned they would "decompose" the identity of the Israeli State.

The issue is very serious and I am waiting for the reactions from the Palestinian side.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

The issue is very serious and I am waiting for the reactions from the Palestinian side.
Aljazeera.net says the Knesset member ahmad Tibi said that Abbas refused the Israeli demand to recognize Israel as "a Jewish state".

[Cleopatra]

Verbally yes , of course they will refuse it... the point is to see how they will negociate it...because they will negotiate it.

For example only three months ago, according to the Annan Plan for Cyrpus, refugees took nothing...

The issue is burning and complicated and there are many Palestinians that they know that they can't really expect Israel to accept them back.

We will see. Let's hope for the best. I know it's hard not to be able to return to your homeland.

[max]

When there are two states side by side, can the refugees not go to live in Palestine?

[Baker]

Originally posted by hisham

You are right Max,
And am against all religious states, but now I can't understand how they refer to Israel as democratic state and now are recalling to a religious state.


Israel is democratic state but is was created by Jews they have never tried to push their religion on the over one million Arabs that live inside Israel.
I’m glad you are against all religious states but you are taking the side of the Arab states that run their country under Islam beliefs.

[a_unique_person]

There are many intrusions of Jewish religious law into Israeli life, such as enforced observance of the Sabbath.

To call Israel a Jewish State reminds me of the White Australia policy.

[Ben Shniper]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
There are many intrusions of Jewish religious law into Israeli life, such as enforced observance of the Sabbath.

To call Israel a Jewish State reminds me of the White Australia policy.

Syria is officially Muslim, and the Koran is the state constitution of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and dozens of Arab countries.

But Judaism is NOT the official religion of Israel. It is a secular democracy. The "State of Jews" is simply a reference to the percieved racial characteristic of Jews. Like French, German, and Arabs, Jews want their own state. Can the Italians and Greeks have their own states? Okay. So why can't Jews?

If you take it by racial groupings, it has to be compared that way. So is it fair for France to be "for the French", or mostly so? Or are you just stupid like usual?

-Ben

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ben Shniper


Syria is officially Muslim, and the Koran is the state constitution of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and dozens of Arab countries.

But Judaism is NOT the official religion of Israel. It is a secular democracy. The "State of Jews" is simply a reference to the percieved racial characteristic of Jews. Like French, German, and Arabs, Jews want their own state. Can the Italians and Greeks have their own states? Okay. So why can't Jews?

If you take it by racial groupings, it has to be compared that way. So is it fair for France to be "for the French", or mostly so? Or are you just stupid like usual?

-Ben

Typical, we start off with one argument, so you take off at a complete tangent.

The issue is that Palestinians had this Jewish State forced on them.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
There are many intrusions of Jewish religious law into Israeli life, such as enforced observance of the Sabbath.

To call Israel a Jewish State reminds me of the White Australia policy.

I repeat for those who seems not to understand certain things because they let their anti-religion obsessions to get over them. .

"Jewish State" is a political slogan that describes a country where the majority of its inhabitans are not Arabs.

The slogan was introduced by Ben Gurion although he was himself quite unsure if it was the right policy.

The slogan "jewish State" ,is quite known since the early 50ies but none really dares to discuss about it because it has to do with the burning issue of the refugees.

Maybe it's better to say that this slogan refers to a dilemma: " What sort of Israel do we want"

An open,democratic state but NOT Jewish or something else?

Where is Capel Dodger to preach us about the side effects of national zionism , BTW.

Having repeated all these... I think it's time to say a couple of words for the refugee problem in Israel.

[hisham]

Originally posted by Ben Shniper

Syria is officially Muslim
Proof !!
and dozens of Arab countries.

We need detailes !!

Again Bush talked about "The Holy Land". Can we understand from this as enforcing parties to adapt religious solutions?
The Holy Land, said Bush, must be shared between the Palestinians and Israel, and "both must make tangible, immediate steps toward this vision," Bush said.

[Baker]

Originally posted by Ben Shniper

Syria is officially Muslim


Originally posted by hisham

Proof !!


This is from Syria's constitution
The system of law is a combination of Islamic law and French civil code. The highest instance is the Court of Cassation, and there are appeal courts in each of the 14 provinces. Justices of peace operate in local summary courts and there are separate civil and criminal courts. The death penalty is in force.



We need detailes !!


Yemen
http://www.austarab.com.au/Yemen/Yemen_constitution.html
The system of law is based on Islamic law. The commercial law is influenced by English common law principles. The death penalty is in force.


Algeria
The judicial system is based on French and Islamic traditions and socialist principles. The Supreme Court also has a constitutional role as the Council of State
http://www.austarab.com.au/Algeria/Algeria_constitution.html

Bahrain
The judicial system is codified on the basis of English jurisprudence and Islamic law. The death penalty is nominally in force.
http://www.austarab.com.au/Bahrain/Bahrain_constitution.html

United Arab Emirates
The UAE law system is based on Islamic legal principles, with introduction of some secular codes, but in practice they are interpreted differently by the local courts in different emirates. Abu Dhabi has a Ruler’s Court presided by a professional judge and the court in Dubai is run by a qadi (Islamic legal expert); the rulers in other emirates deal with legal issues themselves. The death penalty is in force.
http://www.austarab.com.au/UAE/UAE_constitution.html

Sudan
The system of law was substantially based on the English common law, with the judiciary as separate and independent authority. Since the 1980s the Islamic (Sharia) law was reintroduced.
http://www.austarab.com.au/Sudan/Sudan_constitution.html

Saudi Arabia
The legal system is based on Islamic law. The judiciary consists of religious courts with a chief judge as head, responsible for the Department of Shar’iah (legal) Affairs. Shar’ia courts are primarily concerned with family inheritance and property matters. The death penalty is in force for murder, robbery with violence, adultery and drug offences.
http://www.austarab.com.au/Saudi_Arabia/Saudi_Arabia_constitution.html

[Ben Shniper]

Originally posted by Baker
Originally posted by Ben Shniper

Syria is officially Muslim




This is from Syria's constitution
The system of law is a combination of Islamic law and French civil code. The highest instance is the Court of Cassation, and there are appeal courts in each of the 14 provinces. Justices of peace operate in local summary courts and there are separate civil and criminal courts. The death penalty is in force.



I don't accept your propogandist zionist lies! It's obvious you planted this "constitution" in Damascas to desecrate a good liberal philosophy.

How DARE you present evidence to the contrary of my belief system! Next thing you will be calling Arafat a terrorist and pointing out the highly irrelevant fact that communism killed hundreds of millions worldwide, yet some people here still support it.

:)

-Ben

[CapelDodger]

Cleopatra:
Where is Capel Dodger to preach us about the side effects of national zionism

I do not preach, I instruct.

"Jewish" in this context is , of course, an ethnic term. The people that brought us nationalist Zionism were, in the main, secular, many of them socialists. The actual Jewish (religious) elements of Israeli law are anomalies, given the original intent of the founders of Israel. (Their existence is an example of the unfinished naure of the Israeli "nation".) "Jewish State" can be interpreted just as loosely as the previous "Jewish Homeland", although it means, of course, a sovereign state with a large majority of Jews, at the very least. Whether it includes the Greater Israel concept is a matter of faction. Where the Big G comes into it is, again, a matter of faction.

The Guardian has quoted George II as saying, in cabinet, that the Israelis are wasting their money expanding settlements, because they're just bulding houses for Palestinians. That must have been sourced from a few directions. The "Jewish State" mention is, I suspect, an undertaking that the refugee question won't be answered by large numbers of Arabs moving into Israel. They'll be moving into nciely turned-out settlements. Money already spent can offset compensation costs. Sharon can present that to the Israeli majority as a good deal, even with extensive evacuation. There's a wide generation of Israeli voters who would like to have some prospect, even if illusory, of life getting better.

Is this the place to discuss the up-coming Israeli Civl War? Or should that be on the Road-Map thread?

[Baker]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Is this the place to discuss the up-coming Israeli Civl War? Or should that be on the Road-Map thread?

The up-coming Israeli Civil War well I would certainly like to hear about it.
Of course, we first have to hope the Palestine’s give up on their wish to gain back all the original Palestine.

[CapelDodger]

From Baker:
Of course, we first have to hope the Palestine’s give up on their wish to gain back all the original Palestine.
To gain back? But Baker, surely they never had it? Remember "Nothing was taken from no-one by nobody", by Joseph Farrah? You once thought it worthy of consideration. You've grown - well done.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Cleopatra:



Is this the place to discuss the up-coming Israeli Civl War? Or should that be on the Road-Map thread?

Charmingly ironic as always.... Go ahead....although you came second in row...

Last night ,Charmion, I was browsing "The book of the Deads" and I found an old curse the "Curse of the Cat"...shall I recite it for you...?

[CapelDodger]

Cleopatra:
Last night ,Charmion, I was browsing "The book of the Deads" and I found an old curse the "Curse of the Cat"...shall I recite it for you...?
A woman with the Curse of the Cat at her fingertips - that is scary. Unfailingly polite as I am, I will be even more unfailingly polite from now on. I'm currently bullying Baker on the Road-Map thread - I really should stop doing that, it's unattractive.

[Cleopatra]

I'm currently bullying Baker on the Road-Map thread - I really should stop doing that, it's unattractive.


So, how am I supposed to take this Capel Dodger? As an appeal to save you from your unfailingly polite self?

[CapelDodger]

Cleopatra:
So, how am I supposed to take this Capel Dodger? As an appeal to save you from your unfailingly polite self?
Quite frankly, a woman with the Curse of the Cat at her fingertips can take it whichever way they prefer; you can't see this, but I'm nodding and smiling agreeably at anything you say.
For amusement, you could launch the Curse at a European leader of your choice and then we could watch to see if anything crappy happens to them in the next few weeks. Anything that does I can make cat-related - that's my only party-trick.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
you can't see this, but I'm nodding and smiling agreeably at anything you say.
Thanks but your unfailingly polite manners can't save you :p
For amusement, you could launch the Curse at a European leader of your choice and then we could watch to see if anything crappy happens to them in the next few weeks. Anything that does I can make cat-related - that's my only party-trick.
Do you mean Continental leader? You know a Greek anti-semite would start complaining about the Israelis because they are allowed to participate in the Eurovision contest ( :p ) the Champions League etc etc , so he would choose Ariel Sharon to test the efficiency of the curse on european leaders...

I'd choose a certain "european" leader, who became 50 recently,who loves to spend his holidays in Tuscany-Italy and his greatest accomplishment in life is that he persuaded a lawyer to get married to him :p

The Cat would curse him to spend his life after retirement to a ranch in Texas. [evil laugh]Ha Ha Ha [/evil laugh]

I have heard, Capel Dodger, that before going to Texas one must be vaccinated... maybe this is the reason that Tricky seems ok ...

[Baker]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
I'm currently bullying Baker on the Road-Map thread - I really should stop doing that, it's unattractive.

I would call it side stepping the issue it does hide your lack of evidence oh wait I forgot you have a far superior word-font and you speak more woolly then I so that makes up for it.