Hoping Americans stay forever

[Tony]

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030602-042705-8259r ..full article

BAGHDAD, Iraq, June 2 (UPI) -- It is dusk in Baghdad and I am talking to the regular group of men who gather near the house I am staying in to talk about the day's events.

"What do you think about the Americans? How long do you think they should stay? Are they doing a good job?" I ask.

The answer is very complicated while at the same time very, very simple. It is the "politically correct" thing to do to complain about the Americans, say they are not wanted and tell them to "go home."

The reality, though, is very different.

As usually happens throughout Iraq, people look around before they tell their true feelings. Simply put they are still afraid to speak the truth. Before it was Saddam, now it is the Shiites and others who frighten them.

"The Americans are doing wonderfully. We want them to stay forever," I hear.




This guy was a human sheild thatchanged his mind (http://assyrianchristians.com/i_was_wrong_mar_26_03.htm) when he realized that the people he was "protecting" didnt want his protection.

I think this article touches on a very important issue. We can not allow an islamic dictatorship to form in Iraq. We need to support freedom and secular government. The US needs to stop worrying about world opinion and take a hardline with the fundies.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony
We need to support freedom and secular government. The US needs to stop worrying about world opinion and take a hardline with the fundies.

A secular government? Why would Iraq get a secular government when the US is not a secular government. George Bush can't go five minutes without mentioning God.

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG


A secular government? Why would Iraq get a secular government when the US is not a secular government. George Bush can't go five minutes without mentioning God.

Gimme a break. Just because Bush mentions god doesn’t mean it is official government policy to establish a state religion with religious law. You have said some stupid things, but this is the pinnacle of ignorance. A rational person can make that distinction.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony


Gimme a break. Just because Bush mentions god doesn’t mean it is official government policy to establish a state religion with religious law. You have said some stupid things, but this is the pinnacle of ignorance. A rational person can make that distinction.

Tony, you are an moronic little young republican who gets his rocks off trying to take digs at the more intelligent posters on this board while wallowing in his own right wing ignorance.
It's not my fault you are too stupid to see that the Bush government is trying to establish state religion and religious law in your own country.
But, you are a helpless sock puppet of your sad government, so it doesn't surprise me that you simple repeat the rabblings of nonsense articles that you read on the internet and think will change everyone's mind when you cut and paste them here.
Welcome to my ignore list.

[reprise]

Originally posted by KelvinG
A secular government? Why would Iraq get a secular government when the US is not a secular government. George Bush can't go five minutes without mentioning God.

:confused:

While US presidents on both sides of the political fence tend to be a little more vocal about their religious beliefs than leaders of some other nations, I can't believe that you're suggesting that the US government is not secular because some of its presidents have chosen to acknowledge their faith.

Presumably only atheists are qualified to be politicians under your definition of secular.

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG


Tony, you are an moronic little young republican who gets his rocks off trying to take digs at the more intelligent posters on this board while wallowing in his own right wing ignorance.
It's not my fault you are too stupid to see that the Bush government is trying to establish state religion and religious law in your own country.
But, you are a helpless sock puppet of your sad government, so it doesn't surprise me that you simple repeat the rabblings of nonsense articles that you read on the internet and think will change everyone's mind when you cut and paste them here.
Welcome to my ignore list.

http://www.forum.scullyspost.com/images/smilies/wavey.gif Good-bye pussy. If you cower in fear at the slightest bit of confrontation, then you aren’t good enough to read my posts.

Thanks reprise for bringing rationality back to the discussion.

[reprise]

Was it OK when Democratic presidents mentioned their god or is it only Republicans who aren't allowed to exercise their freedom of religion?

:rolleyes:

FTR, I wouldn't have a clue about the religious beliefs of any of our last 10 Prime Ministers. The only reason I'm aware of the religious beliefs of our last two Governors-General is because one was a former Anglican Archbishop who created a clusterf**k and inevitable comparisons were made with the much adored G-G who preceded him (the media likes to point out this one was a deout Catholic).

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by reprise
Was it OK when Democratic presidents mentioned their god or is it only Republicans who aren't allowed to exercise their freedom of religion?

:rolleyes:

FTR, I wouldn't have a clue about the religious beliefs of any of our last 10 Prime Ministers. The only reason I'm aware of the religious beliefs of our last two Governors-General is because one was a former Anglican Archbishop who created a clusterf**k and inevitable comparisons were made with the much adored G-G who preceded him (the media likes to point out this one was a deout Catholic).

I heard a rumor that while Clinton was getting a BJ from Monica, he said "Oh, God" a couple of times, does that count? :confused:

[iMoc]

We can not allow an islamic dictatorship to form in Iraq. We need to support freedom and secular government. The US needs to stop worrying about world opinion and take a hardline with the fundies.

Great thinking. Only a right wing idiot would be dumb enough to use the phrases "...we can not allow.." and "....support freedom..." in the same breath. F...ing priceless. You lot just can't help yourselves.

You are hilarious. LMFAO.

By the way, if the US listened to world opinion it wouldn't be facing the problems it does, and it might actually learn something.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by reprise
Was it OK when Democratic presidents mentioned their god or is it only Republicans who aren't allowed to exercise their freedom of religion?

:rolleyes:

Well, it was a Republican one who said he wasn't sure if atheists should be citizens of the USA. I think that was somehow record-breaking. :confused:

[Tony]

Originally posted by iMoc


Great thinking. Only a right wing idiot would be dumb enough to use the phrases "...we can not allow.." and "....support freedom..." in the same breath. F...ing priceless. You lot just can't help yourselves.



Strawman.


You are hilarious. LMFAO.

I’m glad I make you laugh. I always felt sorry for people that suffered from Down syndrome and mental retardation. Seeing that someone suffering from your condition can get such enjoyment from my posts makes me happy. Keep me up to date on the status you are having in the endeavor to keep from defecating on yourself.

[Malachi151]

"We've come to know truths that we will never question: evil is real, and it must be opposed." - George W. Bush Patriot Day 2002

"You know, one of my concerns was the farther we got away from September the 11th, the more likely it would be that some in our country might not think the enemy still existed. But they do. And they're nothing but a bunch of cold-blooded killers. That's all they are. People in our country wonder why, why would somebody hate America. It's because we love freedom, that's why. We love the idea that free people can worship and almighty God any way they so choose in America. We value the freedom for people to speak their mind in this country. We value a free press. We value freedom. And the more we value freedom, the more they hate us. That's why. That's why the enemy still exists." - Speech at Louisville Kentucky

"The evil ones awakened a mighty giant." - George W. Bush Town Hall Forum Jan. 5, 2002

"The evil one" is a term used to refer to Satan in the Christian faith, especially among evangelical Christians. This statement suggests that Bush is claiming that the attack on America was the action of minions of Satan, who are referred to by Christians as "the evil ones". - George W. Bush

"behind all of life and all history there is a dedication and purpose, set by the hand of a just and faithful God.” - George W. Bush State of the Union 2002

"The American people have responsibilities as well. Countless people around the country have asked me, "What can I do to help in the war on terror?" The answer: Overcome evil with acts of goodness." - George W. Bush USA Today

"Americans are a free people, who know that freedom is the right of every person and the future of every nation. The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." - George W. Bush State of the Union Address 2003

"I think the thing that -- the prayer that I would like America is to ask for is to pray for God's protection for our land and our people, to pray against -- that there's a shield of protection, so that if the evil ones try to hit us again, that we've done everything we can, physically, and that there is a spiritual shield that protects the country." - George W. Bush Town Hall Forum

"My family and I send our thoughts and prayers to those most affected by these tragedies. Thank you, Mr. President, for seeking God's help and strength. Whatever is decided and wherever you lead, we will follow and be victorious." - Charles, in a letter to the President that is published on the Whitehouse web site.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Malachi151
"We've come to know truths that we will never question: evil is real, and it must be opposed." - George W. Bush Patriot Day 2002

"You know, one of my concerns was the farther we got away from September the 11th, the more likely it would be that some in our country might not think the enemy still existed. But they do. And they're nothing but a bunch of cold-blooded killers. That's all they are. People in our country wonder why, why would somebody hate America. It's because we love freedom, that's why. We love the idea that free people can worship and almighty God any way they so choose in America. We value the freedom for people to speak their mind in this country. We value a free press. We value freedom. And the more we value freedom, the more they hate us. That's why. That's why the enemy still exists." - Speech at Louisville Kentucky

"The evil ones awakened a mighty giant." - George W. Bush Town Hall Forum Jan. 5, 2002

"The evil one" is a term used to refer to Satan in the Christian faith, especially among evangelical Christians. This statement suggests that Bush is claiming that the attack on America was the action of minions of Satan, who are referred to by Christians as "the evil ones". - George W. Bush

"behind all of life and all history there is a dedication and purpose, set by the hand of a just and faithful God.” - George W. Bush State of the Union 2002

"The American people have responsibilities as well. Countless people around the country have asked me, "What can I do to help in the war on terror?" The answer: Overcome evil with acts of goodness." - George W. Bush USA Today

"Americans are a free people, who know that freedom is the right of every person and the future of every nation. The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." - George W. Bush State of the Union Address 2003

"I think the thing that -- the prayer that I would like America is to ask for is to pray for God's protection for our land and our people, to pray against -- that there's a shield of protection, so that if the evil ones try to hit us again, that we've done everything we can, physically, and that there is a spiritual shield that protects the country." - George W. Bush Town Hall Forum

"My family and I send our thoughts and prayers to those most affected by these tragedies. Thank you, Mr. President, for seeking God's help and strength. Whatever is decided and wherever you lead, we will follow and be victorious." - Charles, in a letter to the President that is published on the Whitehouse web site.

http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/positive8.jpg

[iMoc]

Originally posted by Tony


Strawman.


You are hilarious. LMFAO.

I?m glad I make you laugh. I always felt sorry for people that suffered from Down syndrome and mental retardation. Seeing that someone suffering from your condition can get such enjoyment from my posts makes me happy. Keep me up to date on the status you are having in the endeavor to keep from defecating on yourself.

Your level of stupidity and immaturity is only matched by your inability to create a satisfying insult.

Big yawn.

[a_unique_person]

I am sure there are Iraqi's who want the Americans there. I can also find news stories about Iraqi's who don't want the Americans there.

[Tony]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I am sure there are Iraqi's who want the Americans there. I can also find news stories about Iraqi's who don't want the Americans there.

You're probably right. I posted this to offer a particular (and unique) perspective, not as absolute truth.

[Tony]

Originally posted by iMoc


Your level of stupidity and immaturity is only matched by your inability to create a satisfying insult.

Big yawn.


And to show how "immature" I am, I am going to be the bigger man and end this now. I have no need to engage in an online di*k-measuring contest.





Ok, Now. Does anyone have anything intelligent to say?

[Frostbite]

Well you seem to be very opinionated, and that's good I guess. Problem is, you sound exactly like all the right-wing conservative patriots out there, not like someone who made his own mind about things. I bet you watch CNN and Fox news and take what they say literally, and entirely neglect whatever alternative news source exists out there. Not really worth debating with, since you become aggressive everytime your values are put into questioning.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Frostbite
I bet you watch CNN and Fox news and take what they say literally, and entirely neglect whatever alternative news source exists out there.

And I bet you jack-off while watching your mom take a s**t. I can make unfounded accusations too.

Not really worth debating with, since you become aggressive everytime your values are put into questioning.

:rolleyes:

When I have I ever became aggressive?

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Tony


Strawman.


You are hilarious. LMFAO.

I’m glad I make you laugh. I always felt sorry for people that suffered from Down syndrome and mental retardation. Seeing that someone suffering from your condition can get such enjoyment from my posts makes me happy. Keep me up to date on the status you are having in the endeavor to keep from defecating on yourself.

Do you honestly think anyone here thinks that's a good comeback?

Where have all the conservatives with a brain gone, is what I'd like to know. All we're left with are these mean foul-mouthed, filthy-minded little children.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Sundog


Do you honestly think anyone here thinks that's a good comeback?


If I wanted my cum back, I would scrape it off your teeth. :D


Where have all the conservatives with a brain gone, is what I'd like to know. All we're left with are these mean foul-mouthed, filthy-minded little children.

I like how you bigots assume I am a conservative.

[Sundog]

It's time you got spanked, little boy. Here it comes...

[hal bidlack]

um, folks? Perhaps we could all take a deep breath or two, and tone down the vitral a tad? Remember, such language makes puppies cry :(

thanks!

hal :cool:

[Denise]

Tony, there is no reason to use curse words in my opinon. I was going to edit you but Hal did it first. For the record I am a conservative, so hopefully no crying foul.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by hal bidlack
um, folks? Perhaps we could all take a deep breath or two, and tone down the vitral a tad? Remember, such language makes puppies cry :(

thanks!

hal :cool:

What is this, no-fault moderation? Only one person here is doing anything wrong. :confused:

[Sundog]

The objectionable posts in this thread have not been removed. In particular, I demand that Tony's last response to me be deleted.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Sundog

It's time you got spanked, little boy. Here it comes...


If you are interested in little boys, you would enjoy this (http://www.nambla1.de/) (warning questionable material) website.


The objectionable posts in this thread have not been removed. In particular, I demand that Tony's last response to me be deleted.

Lets do away with freedom of speech while we're at it.

[Sundog]

Keep it up, genius. See where it gets you.

[Diezel]

Tony:

Could you please put a warning on your link that tells people that questionable and adult material is contained in the link. There are people that will not be happy after linking to that site and it could get people in trouble at work.

If you don't not put a warning on your link in 15 minutes, I will put one in your post for you. I will PM you with this same information.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Sundog
Keep it up, genius. See where it gets you.

Hopefully it will get me back on your ignore list. Id prefer not to deal with your bigotry.

[Luke T.]

Tony, what are you doing, man? Your comments and insults toward Sundog have crossed way over the line.

Can we all just take a step back here?

Thanks.

[Luke T.]

This topic had such good potential, too. I have some pretty strong feelings about the U.S. presence in Iraq.

[Diezel]

Thank you for editing your post to include a warning.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Luke T.
This topic had such good potential, too. I have some pretty strong feelings about the U.S. presence in Iraq.

I agree, thats why I posted this article. But for some reason it turned into a flame war, I tried to stop it once, but other people insisted on ad homenim attacks.

Id be willing to re-post it and forgive and forget.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Tony


I agree, thats why I posted this article. But for some reason it turned into a flame war, I tried to stop it once, but other people insisted on ad homenim attacks.

Id be willing to re-post it and forgive and forget.

I'm not really interested in "who started it." This has become a one-upmanship contest that has gotten out of control. You get the trophy, okay? :D

As for Iraq, I stated in another topic that I think the U.S. is now faced with some problems that are going to require us to resort to some necessary evils. Namely, to stay a good long while, and to kick outside agitators out of the country. Iran is trying to assert their influence there and establish a theocracy in Iraq that is in the Iranian image. We need to force them out of Iraq. At gunpoint, if necessary.

Next, we need to write Iraq's constitution. No more games. We invaded the country. We occupy it. We can't pretend to be innocent. And we have to go all the way with this, or we should never have set foot there. None of this half-measure crap.

No matter what we do, we are going to take some punches in the court of world opinion. No one is going to be happy. So we need to bite the bullet and do what has to be done. If we walk away with the job half-finished, then the extreme elements will win out and Iraq will become a worse enemy to us than they ever were before.

Anyone who is not an Iraqi citizen should be booted out of Iraq immediately.

[Frostbite]

I probably did, I shouldn't have judged Tony. Nobody's perfect eh? But the guy reacted like a tasmanian tiger with a bad toothache.

[Dancing David]

So I hope we don't stay froever, all we need another Guam where they can make stuff at slave wages and then say made in America.

Couldn't we invade someplace with better tourist potential, I mean if we have to stay forever.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Dancing David
So I hope we don't stay froever, all we need another Guam where they can make stuff at slave wages and then say made in America.

Couldn't we invade someplace with better tourist potential, I mean if we have to stay forever.

I don't think we should stay "forever." But to establish a real democracy in the Middle East is going to be no small feat.

What about "Made in Japan?" :D

[Lisa]

Okay so I spend a nice night online gaming and check my mail. Lots of reported posts. Just on this thread. Good job guys. Glad we're all adults here.

Back to the origional intent of the thread (I think, my eyes kind of glazed over when the insults started)

Where will Iraq go? I don't know. I've been in/lived in a lot of different countries. Some resist "western influence", some don't. Most over the years have found a happy meduim.

We all like to think of ourselves as free thinkers here. In Iraq, that's called "dead". These people have been under a dictator who's rule was cruel sadistic inhumane and absolute.

I hope they will see they have rights as humans and will defend them. I hope they will go to plays, listen to music, and read anything they want to with no state intervnetion.

[Genghis Pwn]

GREAT THREAD. 5 STARS.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony
I like how you (people) assume I am a conservative.

Very early in Tony's tenure here, he said that he was a liberal (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=442780&highlight=liberal+tricky#post442780).

Originally posted by Tony
And what are you talking about when you say " the only self-acknowledged liberal texan"? :p Im liberal, im just not a leftist.

The interesting (and perhaps scary:eek: ) thing is, that for a Texan, he might be right!:D

[Andonyx]

Luke,

I'm curious thought about one thing.

I too agree we're gonna have to stick there a good long while. Security being only one of myriad concerns. (I think it's a "made our bed, now we gotta lie in it type deal.)

But as far as erecting some sort of democracy, I still have yet to hear a good argument that this possible.

I just feel like a viable representative government (even a republic) cannot be foisted part and parcel on a people. We fought for our democracy. England changed hands about a bajillion times each with a bloody war until they found a system they could live with. As for the countries we rebuilt following WWII, it seems most of our assistance was economic and resource oriented, the extent of political rules seemed to relate to what they could or could not do OUTSIDE their borders.

I just don't know that we can hand any country a democracy no matter how long we stay there.

[jj]

Originally posted by reprise


:confused:

While US presidents on both sides of the political fence tend to be a little more vocal about their religious beliefs than leaders of some other nations, I can't believe that you're suggesting that the US government is not secular because some of its presidents have chosen to acknowledge their faith.


"Atheists, I have a problem with athiests. They can be neither good Americans nor patriots. This is one nation under God" - George Herbert Walker Bush

[jj]

Originally posted by Sundog


Do you honestly think anyone here thinks that's a good comeback?

Where have all the conservatives with a brain gone, is what I'd like to know. All we're left with are these mean foul-mouthed, filthy-minded little children.

Well, let's see. The Arizona Republican Party threw Barry Goldwater out. *and he's dead now, too, sadly*

The RNC deliberately ran Millicent Fenwick out of office in NJ by spreading false rumours about possible involvement in the House Banking Scandal. *and she's gone too, sadly*

Where have they gone? They've been thrown out of the Republican Party by active manouevers of the party.

[reprise]

Originally posted by jj
"Atheists, I have a problem with athiests. They can be neither good Americans nor patriots. This is one nation under God" - George Herbert Walker Bush

Fortunately, the US Constitution doesn't include the words "one nation under God", and it is the Constitution - and not the Pledge of Allegiance - by under which the USA must be governed; "under God" wasn't even part of the original Pledge.

The USA did perfectly well simply being "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" for over 450 years - perhaps someone should tell GWB that God was a late arrival at this particular party.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Andonyx
Luke,

I'm curious thought about one thing.

I too agree we're gonna have to stick there a good long while. Security being only one of myriad concerns. (I think it's a "made our bed, now we gotta lie in it type deal.)

But as far as erecting some sort of democracy, I still have yet to hear a good argument that this possible.

I just feel like a viable representative government (even a republic) cannot be foisted part and parcel on a people. We fought for our democracy. England changed hands about a bajillion times each with a bloody war until they found a system they could live with. As for the countries we rebuilt following WWII, it seems most of our assistance was economic and resource oriented, the extent of political rules seemed to relate to what they could or could not do OUTSIDE their borders.

I just don't know that we can hand any country a democracy no matter how long we stay there.

Andonyx, I have no good argument that it is possible, either. I wish I had a better knowledge of history and how it was achieved in Japan after WWII, or even Germany, but I don't. I sure hope someone in the Administration has a better idea than me. And I hope they foresaw this problem prior to the invasion and have the answers.

I do know that Iraqis are well educated, so they have that going for them. They are also sitting on top of the second largest known oil field, and that can be a big advantage for a free enterprise-based system.

I think the clearest and most immediate present danger to Iraq right now is the obvious presence of Iranian agitators. And I think we need to forcibly remove them from the country.

I have no idea if there are any "moderate" political leaders still alive in Iraq. I imagine Hussein was fairly efficient in eliminating any dissenting voices. And a regime such as his tends to push those who may have once been moderate to the extremes.

It is going to take a long time for moderate voices to be heard in Iraq.

Perhaps the best start would be to estabish a justice system to deal with the "criminals" of Hussein's regime. A justice system overseen by the U.S., but handled by the Iraqi people. I am sure they have quite a thirst for blood and want to exact revenge. We need to ensure that justice is achieved in the right fashion and not vigilante style or mob justice style.

We need to establish a long-term occupation government. No two ways about it. And that occupation government is going to be sitting right smack dab in the middle of the hottest of the hotbeds in the world. Good luck with that!