What defines "free will"

[Yahweh]

Lets pretend for a second that God existed, and we knew that god existed with irrefutable proof (Its quite an impossibly hypothetical event). Does God control everything that we do, or do humans have free will? If so, does that mean that everything has a destiny of some sort? I like to think of it this way, God does not control everything in the universe, he just kinda programmed it like some kind of video game, and then gave everyone free will. But if everything has a destiny, theres no free will. Without free will there would be no self-awareness or consciousness. How can you prove to yourself that you are self-aware. Take the quick Phil's self-awareness test right here:
1. Who are you?
2. Where are you?
3. What are you doing?

My answers of course are?
1. I'm Phil
2. In a box, just behind that McDonalds
3. Pondering philosophical questions.

If you are unable to to answer all of those questions then you are not self-aware. Even an answer to the first question like "I'm Me" still proves you recognize your own self identity. Now take the quick Phil's Consciousness test:
1. Pick one of these that you would most like to appear infront of you right now right now so you an eat...
A. Salad
B. Steak
C. Feces
2. Why did you pick that food?

If you chose any of those then congradulations you passed the first half. The second half is what seperates us from a computer. A computer wouldnt be able to answer the second question, all it could say is "I chose my answer at random". If you said that you chose Salad because "I'm a vegetarian" then you are conscious because you made a logical decision. If you chose steak because "I prefer steak over the other 2" then you are conscious. If you chose feces because "I'm a freak with severe emotional and psychological issues" then congradulations, you conscious.

Do my 2 tests prove that there is no destiny and all humans have free will... or do you think consciousness still remains an illusion?

[Skeptical Greg]

Ahh.. But a self aware computer wouldn't pick any of those things... They would be useless to a computer.

Making one of those choices doesn't demonstrate self awareness, it just demonstrates an ability to recognize a need for food..

I'm sure a computer could be programmed to recognize a need and proceed with recharging it's batteries, or switching to battery power in the event of line power failure...

P.S.


Pretend there is no God? Right..................

[Jet Grind]

1. Even if God did create the universe, I seriously doubt (and with good reason) that he would have done so in a way that everything was predetermined. Quantum Mechanics proves that events in our universe are really the collapse of probabilities, which renders certain knowledge of futer states of affairs unattainable.

2. The tests don't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have free will. Our conciousness/self-awarness could all be an illusion. So can free will, even though I do believe that free will is real and important.

3. It's impossible to give a computer a "free-will" so to speak. As you can't give it any degree of freedom to choose between different courses of action. It has to be pre-programmed to choose between ourse of action A and course of action B. Also note that this is the reason we are far from making a Data (the android from Star-Trek). I also seriously doubt that a computer can be self aware, for more on that read a paper by Jaron Lanier entitled "You can't Argue with a Zombie".

http://www.davidchess.com/words/poc/lanier_zombie.html

[BobK]

I didn't know feces was a food.

Is it tasty?:)

Which food group is it in?

[Dancing David]

I have to disagree Jet Grind, that is the determinism means there is no free will arguement.

If the computer was programmed to imitate organic structures then it could be consious and deterministic.

I think that I belive in free will, that is of course I am just programmed to believe in free will, in which case I will act as though I don't have free will by believing that I don't have free will, but then I have free will because I am choosing to believe that I don't. So can have free lunch instaed?

[Jet Grind]

Originally posted by Dancing David
If the computer was programmed to imitate organic structures then it could be consious and deterministic.

Maybe. Is the computer really experiencing things or is it simply simulating those experiences? A computer can simulate the act of getting drunk, but can it really get experience getting drunk? To put it simply, is it really concious? IMHO, our knowledge in the fields of neurology, cognitive science, and AI is not complete enough to give a definite answer.

[Dancing David]

definitive answers right!

However if we program it to have the inherent sloppy cgharacteristic of the human brain, in replication, then I would think that we would agree that if the brain is consiuos then so is the computer.

Our brains are deterministic as well, they are sloppy enough to give free will a shot.

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by BobK
I didn't know feces was a food.

Is it tasty?:)

Which food group is it in?

From observing dogs I believe it falls in as a snack group. Kitty litter on a dogs whiskers is natures way of telling you you should refuse a face licking at that moment.

[c4ts]

1. Who are you?
A very bored individual.
2. Where are you?
In front of a computer.
3. What are you doing?
Typing out a response.

[justsaygnosis]

This is one bone to gnaw on

http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/freewill1.htm#intro

Agreeing w/Franko that we are ruled by TLOP I'm inclined to the notion of 'free choice' among alternatives rather than the freedom to will alternatives into existence.