1 photo- 1000 feelings...

[Cleopatra]

http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/2003-06-04T185603Z_01_JOR116_RTRIDSP_2_MIDEAST-BUSH.jpg

Do you remember the similar photo... 10 years ago?

I remember the moment as if it was today... I was in my house in Jerusalem , watching TV , my grandma was still alive.

President Clinton approaches the two leaders and asks them to shake hands. President Arafat smiles broadly and gives his right hand immediately, the late Yitzak Rabin hesitates for a couple of seconds and without smiling grabs Arafat's hand.

All the elders in the house burst into tears, we, the youngers cannot hide our enthousiasm.We thought it was over. No more killings, no more tears, no more anger, no more funerals...

If, that day of September somebody had told me what would happen next, I wouldn't have believed him. Who could ever possibly imagine the violence that we would have to experience ( both sides) during the past years...

So... today I was alone at home in Athens and when I saw Abu Mazen and Ariel Sharon shaking hands, I could feel nothing but fear.In fact the only thing I could whisper was : " Oh God, please help".

What if things deteriorate? What if this is nothing but theater?

Sharon and Mazen look very old on the photo but the victims of both sides are so young...

Let's hope for the best.

[Jedi Knight]

1 photo - 1,000 massacres of Jews.

Israel is finished if they get conned into thinking a Palestinian State will bring 'peace'. It is fallacy as people thinking 'bacon' somehow stops a soul from moving on after death.

People love war. That is why there will be a Palestinian State.

JK

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

What if things deteriorate? What if this is nothing but theater?



Then we are all in big ****.

[Luke T.]

Yeah....
http://www.historyforsale.com/productimages/thumbnails/90895.jpg

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
1 photo - 1,000 massacres of Jews.

Israel is finished if they get conned into thinking a Palestinian State will bring 'peace'. It is fallacy as people thinking 'bacon' somehow stops a soul from moving on after death.

People love war. That is why there will be a Palestinian State.

JK

People love War because it's within human's nature not to learn from the mistakes of the past.

A Palestinian State won't bring peace indeed. Only the dismantle of the settlements will do.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


People love War because it's within human's nature not to learn from the mistakes of the past.

A Palestinian State won't bring peace indeed. Only the dismantle of the settlements will do.

You mean dismantling the State of Israel, you know, the 10 acres of land the Jews have in the sea of Muslim cult-mythology.

JK

[Frostbite]

People need to stop listening to their damn warmongering and power-hungry leaders, because at the end of the day we're all human beings, and I don't think we're meant to kill each other anymore.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You mean dismantling the State of Israel, you know, the 10 acres of land the Jews have in the sea of Muslim cult-mythology.

JK

I rather have a smaller country than a bleeding country.

[BobK]

I'll lay 6/5 that there is negligible change.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Frostbite
People need to stop listening to their damn warmongering and power-hungry leaders, because at the end of the day we're all human beings, and I don't think we're meant to kill each other anymore.

Oh but humans will because some meteorite tells them to lol. Then there is the bacon thing...well, we won't go there.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


I rather have a smaller country than a bleeding country.

True, the 10 acres of land the Jews have could bleed, but the 1,000,000,000,000 miles of land the Muslims have could be radioactive.

Want that?

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by BobK
I'll lay 6/5 that there is negligible change.

Bob, you over by the casino? If you are we are neighbors lol.

JK

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


True, the 10 acres of land the Jews have could bleed, but the 1,000,000,000,000 miles of land the Muslims have could be radioactive.

Want that?

JK

Well...since USA armed those miles of land or let me rephrase it.. since USA couldn't prevent those lands from being armed by certain...circles(sic)... what can I do but fighting for peace?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Well...since USA armed those miles of land or let me rephrase it.. since USA couldn't prevent those lands from being armed by certain...circles(sic)... what can I do but fighting for peace?

Die with honor and efficient expediency in war there?

JK

[Cleopatra]

I only accept lectures about honorable deaths from people that have served their military duty in the West Bank as I have and not because the others don't deserve to have an opinion about death in general but if you haven't smelled death, it's better to talk about it to the Literature and Poetry forum...

Don't talk like a eurocommunist now... please...

[kedo1981]

Should'nt all the christain retards be wondering if GW is the anti-christ??????????

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I only accept lectures about honorable deaths from people that have served their military duty in the West Bank as I have and not because the others don't deserve to have an opinion about death in general but if you haven't smelled death, it's better to talk about it to the Literature and Poetry forum...

Don't talk like a eurocommunist now... please...

I have been to war as light infantry. I have also been to the West Bank/Gaza and I have traveled extensively through Egypt.

Jordan is the Palestinian homeland, not Israel. That said, the Israelis have been much more tolerant of the Palestinian populations than the Palestinians have been of the Israeli populations.

The arab-bedoin populations want Israel pushed into the sea and the Muslimization of all religious sites in antiquity. Look at what has happened to the Temple Mount.

You want to whine about desecration--look at the desecration of the temple mount with arab bulldozers hacking into it to erase the Jewish historical presence there. The foundations have cracked and the whole thing could collapse at any time.

JK

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

I have been to war as light infantry. I have also been to the West Bank/Gaza and I have traveled extensively through Egypt.

Yes, when I was typing it, I knew what your answer would be but I thought to give it a try... so let's say that we both know of what we are talking about and let's avoid lecturing each other about wars, blood and dignified deaths.

Jordan is the Palestinian homeland, not Israel.
I agree, I have said it many times in various discussions here.
That said, the Israelis have been much more tolerant of the Palestinian populations than the Palestinians have been of the Israeli populations.

Tolerance can't be scaled, I am afraid. You simply are tolerant or not. Both sides have been intolerant to each other, otherwise we wouldn't be in War now.

The arab-bedoin populations
Let's skip such terms... otherwise I suggest we move our conversation to Banter and to the thread that GP is demonstrating his ignorance regarding races.

want Israel pushed into the sea and the Muslimization of all religious sites in antiquity. Look at what has happened to the Temple Mount.

Now what Jedi Knight? Are you pro religious tolerance... have they wrapped the Temple Mount in bacon straps?Until they do it, maybe we can't really complain.

Seriously. We can't have it all. We have East Jerusalem, our ancestors were praying, looking at the East, towards the Hills of Zion ... the Hills of Zion are ours, we must stop now.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

she seems to find empowerment in the reply button.

it's sort of like slashing your tires over and over again JK.

comedy for slackjaws and the snooty are so much alike sometimes.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/2003-06-04T185603Z_01_JOR116_RTRIDSP_2_MIDEAST-BUSH.jpg

Do you remember the similar photo... 10 years ago?

I remember the moment as if it was today... I was in my house in Jerusalem , watching TV , my grandma was still alive.

President Clinton approaches the two leaders and asks them to shake hands. President Arafat smiles broadly and gives his right hand immediately, the late Yitzak Rabin hesitates for a couple of seconds and without smiling grabs Arafat's hand.

All the elders in the house burst into tears, we, the youngers cannot hide our enthousiasm.We thought it was over. No more killings, no more tears, no more anger, no more funerals...

If, that day of September somebody had told me what would happen next, I wouldn't have believed him. Who could ever possibly imagine the violence that we would have to experience ( both sides) during the past years...

So... today I was alone at home in Athens and when I saw Abu Mazen and Ariel Sharon shaking hands, I could feel nothing but fear.In fact the only thing I could whisper was : " Oh God, please help".

What if things deteriorate? What if this is nothing but theater?

Sharon and Mazen look very old on the photo but the victims of both sides are so young...

Let's hope for the best.
Too bad the thread deteriorated from your thought expressed in the last sentence.

And in a lame attempt to lighten the mood.... Jay Leno had this last night:
President Bush said the Palestinians and Israelis could succeed in the peace effort if they would just act like good Christians.

(And thanks to Luke T for posting the pic.)

Don't stop hoping.

"History repeats the old conceits, the glib replies the same deceits, keep your finger on important issues with crocodile tears and a pocket full of tissues"--Declan Patrick MacManus (Elvis Costello)

[Gem]

It looks really fimiliar, but this time EVERYone has different faces. The Palestenians have Abbas, the isrealis have Sharon, and it's Bush, not Clinton who's hosting.

I try to understand international politics, and here's my opinion on how peace will be achieved.
First, both people on both sides must want peace.
Second, both leaders on each side must want peace and strive toward it.
Third, both side's organizations (IDF, Hamas, etc) must no intervene any longer. Disarm Hamas and other such groups, while the IDF stays put at home, and you have peace.
Fourth, politicians on both sides who would benefit from conflict (terrorist, people who built the "illegal" settlements) must be prevented from influencing their leaders.

Third and Fourth are the one that aren't being done. Hamas is still sending S bombers, IDF is still cracking down on terrorist organizations (and unfortunatly killing innocent bystanders).

Maybe we should send them ice cream?:D

Gem

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by subgenius

Too bad the thread deteriorated from your thought expressed in the last sentence.

And in a lame attempt to lighten the mood.... Jay Leno had this last night:
President Bush said the Palestinians and Israelis could succeed in the peace effort if they would just act like good Christians.

(And thanks to Luke T for posting the pic.)

Don't stop hoping.


I appreciate the tone of your message.

I think that people must have been bored by now reading my uncountable posts on the issue. I have been more than honest without being afraid of being politicaly incorrect but deep in my heart I know that in politics when you end up praying to God to help you and just hoping for the best( instead of believing)... that means that things are not so good.

I thought that I would be happy today. Strangely enough, I am sad.

[corplinx]

I'm sorry you and your family were conned into tears by a cheesy photo op. There was no reason back then to truly believe that things would get better.

Here and now, Iraq's state support of Hamas is over. Syria has stopped official state support of Hezbollah, terrorist Yassir Arafat is losing his influence, a strong US presence is most likely hindering Irani supply shipments to palestinian terrorists.

There are _real _ concessions this time.

Finally, there is reason to have hope. Yes, there will always be some yahoo palestinians who want to kill the jews. There will still be terrorism. But I think groups like Hamas will shrivel on the vine as palestine gets more prosperous.

With a new palestine, a new iraq, and new stability in the region. I think capitalism may be the perfect subversion of fundamentalism.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Gem
I try to understand international politics, and here's my opinion on how peace will be achieved.
First, both people on both sides must want peace.
Second, both leaders on each side must want peace and strive toward it.


Actually this is once again peace through strength. I think the fall of Iraq has had a large influence on Arafat loosening his grip. Peace is most often achieved through victory. Sad but true.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
1 photo - 1,000 massacres of Jews.

Israel is finished if they get conned into thinking a Palestinian State will bring 'peace'. It is fallacy as people thinking 'bacon' somehow stops a soul from moving on after death.

People love war. That is why there will be a Palestinian State.

JK

All religions abound in logical absurdities. For example, the Jewish faith holds that there is only one god, but he is only concerned in the interests of one race.

I can think up a few xian ones if you want as well.

[kittynh]

let's hope...

Maybe having a crazy dude like Bush will act like having crazy Reagan did on Russia.

If he can pull this off he's reelected by a landslide, we are all tired of it.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
For example, the Jewish faith holds that there is only one god, but he is only concerned in the interests of one race.

Oh really--when did he tell you that?

JK

[Malachi151]

Let's face it, Israel should be disolved, the world would be a much more peaceful place.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Malachi151
Let's face it, Israel should be disolved, the world would be a much more peaceful place.

I disagree, the muslim states should be dissolved. They are the source of the hate and violence.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony


I disagree, the muslim states should be dissolved. They are the source of the hate and violence.
How do you propose to do this?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky

How do you propose to do this?

Ask Malachi; he's the man with the plan. I'm just saying that if any country should be dissolved, it should be the Muslim autocracies, not the free state of Israel.

[Genghis Pwn]

This is different. W is in the drivers seat this time. He will be the one to finally bring peace to that region. Mark my words. The one thing all people understand about Bush is this: he means exactly what he says and always follows through, no matter the cost.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20030603/i/1054655013.2348826694.jpg

[Crossbow]

I do hope you are right GP.

When Bush was a canidate and during the first two years of his administration he was not terribly concerned about the Israel/Palestine problem.

But he is focused on it now.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony


I disagree, the muslim states should be dissolved. They are the source of the hate and violence.
Tricky replied
How do you propose to do this?

Originally posted by Tony

Ask Malachi; he's the man with the plan. I'm just saying that if any country should be dissolved, it should be the Muslim autocracies, not the free state of Israel.

I ask because one proposal is doable, and the other is not. Israel has a total population of just over 6 million people, less than the city of New York. There are about 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, and if you generously said that only half of them lived in Muslim autocracies, you'd still be talking about over half a billion people, more than the entire population of the US. They could not be "relocated". You would pretty much have to just wipe them out in order to "dissolve" them, since I think you are unlikely to convince them to stop being Muslim.

But of course, I don't favor either of these plans. I'm kinda against playing the role of world dictator.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by corplinx
I'm sorry you and your family were conned into tears by a cheesy photo op. There was no reason back then to truly believe that things would get better.

.

This is quite an astute comment but it shows how people-who live far away from Middle East-see things... Unless you said it in order to oppose Clinton. ;)

I wish things were like this.I wish we were wrong back then but I don't think so... The bloodshed of the last years has erected those invisible but almost impossible to break- walls of suspiciousness and hatred.

In order that the Road Map succeeds ,it needs good faith and trust. We don't trust each other and I don't know how we will live having all those corpses separating us.

We will see. We can't avoid the future.

And since everybody else quited the dialogue, let me come to you Malachi...

If you check my posts you will find that this is exactly what I'd do if I had the power...

I'd dismantle Israel and I'd leave the Middle East to the Arabs... then I'd relax and I 'd amuse myself with the spectacle...

You don't know Arabs... you don't. If only we could dissappear and let to them the land of Israel... This would be a nice revenge upon those who hate us with no particular reason...

Watching them dealing with the Arabs... ha ha ha...

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky




I ask because one proposal is doable, and the other is not. Israel has a total population of just over 6 million people, less than the city of New York. There are about 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, and if you generously said that only half of them lived in Muslim autocracies, you'd still be talking about over half a billion people, more than the entire population of the US. They could not be "relocated". You would pretty much have to just wipe them out in order to "dissolve" them, since I think you are unlikely to convince them to stop being Muslim.

But of course, I don't favor either of these plans. I'm kinda against playing the role of world dictator.


I dont think either is doable without mass murder.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony

I dont think either is doable without mass murder.
I once jokingly suggested that if the US was so interested in peace in the Mideast, we should just give Israel one of our states that we don't use much (like North Dakota). The Israelis have a great reputation for making tremendous improvements on godforsaken wastelands (like Israel was before they got there). It wouldn't be that much of a sacrifice for us, and they'd probalbly improve the US economy.

[Cleopatra]

Tricky

Your joke would be complete if you added:

" Afterall, Jews are used to be treated like dirt and be thrown to places that none wants to live, until they step their feet on them, of course".

I bet you that even if Jews were transported (sic) to the North Pole ,some people would appear to claim that it was their land for 2000 years...

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Tricky

Your joke would be complete if you added:

" Afterall, Jews are used to be treated like dirt and be thrown to places that none wants to live, until they step their feet on them, of course".

I bet you that even if Jews were transported (sic) to the North Pole ,some people would appear to claim that it was their land for 2000 years...
You are probably right. Hey, maybe that was a Jewish submarine the polar bear was biting (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=20748)!

[Cleopatra]

To Tricky who tries to be funny

"Never smile at a crocodile
No, you can't get friendly with a crocodile
Don't be taken in by his welcome grin
He's imagining how well you'd fit within his skin"



http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/happy/xyxwave.gif

(http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/laugh.gif)