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gumboot
25th August 2006, 08:52 PM
I watched United 93 last night, and it brought this question home to me in an overwhelming way.

Some of you know I'm a filmmaker. As such I'm relatively desensitised to films. The last films to truely overwhelm me were "Schindler's List" (age 12) and "Saving Private Ryan" (Age 17) (Omaha landing sequence).

I anticipated being fairly affected by United 93 simply because I'm become fairly familiar with the subject matter. But I was utterly obliterated by this film. They went for as "realistic" an approach as viable, and the succeeded in staggering ways.

The memory of what happened that day must not ever be forgotten. To deny it happened, to deny what these people went through, is a crime against humanity. It is a crime against the human spirit. In the face of an undefeatable attack, these people stood up and TRIED. Not just on the aircraft. In the FAA command centre, at ATC centres, and in the NEADS bunker. All of these people tried, and kept on trying until the last second.

To me, the single remark that summarises what is greatest about Democracy is a well known 18 word remark by John F Kennedy.

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

What the people caught up in 9/11 did was the ultimate display of this value. The first responders in New York. The military who desperately chased shadows across the sky. The ATCs who prevented the thousands of other flights colliding with these rogue aircraft. And the ordinary people, caught up in the storm, who acted for the greater good. Last of all, the passengers and flight attendants on United Flight 93.

Despite the odds stacked against them, all of these people TRIED.

And the sad people who deny these events, they deny the thousands of people who struggled in vain. Another quote springs to mind:


It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
-Theodore Roosevelt, April 23, 1910

To all the JREF ninjas out there, keep on fighting the good fight. May we never forget.

-Andrew

Arkan_Wolfshade
25th August 2006, 09:05 PM
I was actually asked this question by a good friend of mine today (after I posted some prime meat from the KT thread). His exact words were, I have to ask, and I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, why do you bother to
argue with people like that beyond the posts where you make the killing blows?
It seems like the lot of you are spending a great deal of your free time beating
your heads against the brick wall of deliberate ignorance.

My two part response,

For the fence-sitters and lurkers; for the people that drop by the forum and say "thanks for the info it helped because...". Because people like KT are pissing on the graves of people who died without ever knowing why. And because this **** is starting to weasel its way into the mainstream media and; like ID'ers, flat-earthers; and other who toss the scientific method, critical thinking, and logic out the window; it threatens the progress we've made since the dark ages. People like Alex Jones, Fred Phelps, and K. Hovind are a hinderence to progress and exacerbate many of the problems in the world today.


To clarify, since I wrote that last night and was quite tired. 9/11
CTists appear more akin to history revisionists, in that they have a
political/social agenda. Unlike moon landing CTists, who are just
amusing; or even political loudmouths like Limbaugh, or Michael Moore,
the 9/11 CTists actions are actually hampering efforts to address the
problems in the system and they are, at least indirectly, supporting
the real terrorists by diverting attention and efforts away from them.

XXX
25th August 2006, 09:16 PM
" I have to ask, and I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, why do you bother to
argue with people like that beyond the posts where you make the killing blows?
It seems like the lot of you are spending a great deal of your free time beating
your heads against the brick wall of deliberate ignorance."

I am wondering this same thing right now. I have the latest idiot to deal with who's come in with the entire 9/11 conspiracy theorists checklist, with the new twist of the whole "pure H-bomb in the basement" theory, and I have to decide if I want to hand hold yet another person through all their mistakes like I've done 1000 times before, plus do even more actual research to counter the specific clams that will come up with this new retarded theory. Meanwhile I get slammed with "you don't explain this because you CAN'T", called and idiot and and various other such trash, but I know if I start responding, if I post a response to even one part of the lies, that it will turn into yet another multi page thread that will take up hours and hours of my time as I write my carefully crafted response.

I love that these people, while making mistake after mistake, will still tell you about all the research they claim they've done. I told him to read the 9/11 and NIST reports, and he claims that he's read them both "over a hundred times"...and of course he hasn't even looked at either one I'm sure.

I had to ask myself, do I really want to go through this again? When does it end?

LashL
25th August 2006, 09:31 PM
That's a terrific - and powerful - opening post, Andrew.

I felt the same way when I saw United 93 on opening day (the only time I have ever ditched work to go to a matinee screening, in fact). I was surprised at the depth of the anger I felt that day toward the CTers, with whom I've been arguing for such a long time (although I only discovered this site recently - and boy, am I glad I did).

It is out of respect for those who tried and those who died that we do what we skeptics do what we do.

As long as CTers continue to spit on the graves of those who died and spit in the faces of all of those who did their best that day, we must continue to fight them in an attempt to make them stop spitting.

Joytown
25th August 2006, 10:03 PM
Thank you.

The above posts, in large part, are why I'm here and why I spend the time to research and try to shed light on the idiocy of 9-11 CT.

-Joytown

Brainster
25th August 2006, 10:54 PM
Three main reasons:

1. The passengers. You can argue that the people in the WTC and the firemen/cops are treated fairly respectfully by the CTers. But the passengers are treated very shabbily indeed, as are their families, with these ridiculous accusations that they were duped by voice-morphing technology, with the "I would have laughed in their face" response to the box-cutters, with the hints that some of them are off enjoying the good life smuggling Italian lira along the Poland-Austria border.

2. The hijackers and the people behind them should not be excused from blame for these horrific crimes.

3. I have an abiding respect for the truth in general. I don't respect people who lie in the service of some "greater truth", even if I happen to be on their side in some other battle. Decisions made and judgments reached based on lies are almost always bad decisions.

Regnad Kcin
26th August 2006, 12:16 AM
That's a terrific - and powerful - opening post, Andrew...I heartily agree.

It's unfortunate that I'll likely never be able to shake the hand of such an evidently fine person.

gumboot
26th August 2006, 12:24 AM
I heartily agree.

It's unfortunate that I'll likely never be able to shake the hand of such an evidently fine person.

:D

I do intend to travel one day...:rolleyes: so hopefully I can catch up with some of the JREF crew in person... it's a small world after all...;)

-Andrew

Pardalis
26th August 2006, 12:30 AM
it's a small world after all...;)


Yes, a "globalised" world...

:boxedin:

KingMerv00
26th August 2006, 11:58 AM
:D

I do intend to travel one day...:rolleyes: so hopefully I can catch up with some of the JREF crew in person... it's a small world after all...;)

-Andrew

TAM5 maybe?

Hutch
26th August 2006, 12:15 PM
If not TAM5, then TAM6 perhaps. We really should try and plan a get-together of all the JREF Ninja Wave sometime, the Amazing Meeting would be the best place for it (Delphi_ote and I will both be there in Jan 07) but it would be neat to finally meet all you folks whom I have come to deeply respect and admire these past few months...

I'll be on the Amazing Cruise all next week (with Hal Bidlack, I'll pass on your good wishes to him). Keep fighting the good fight and don't let the Bas***ds wear you down.