Does anyone else sometimes wish

[mrfreeze]

That George Orwell hadn't written 1984 so that retards would quit referencing it and acting like they are original or witty for doing so? I mean every damn retard out there with a conspiracy theory thinks he is the first person to ever read that book. I notice a distinct lack of Animal Farm quoting and referencing however.

[gmanontario]

That Orson Welles hadn't written 1984 so that retards would quit referencing it and acting like they are original or witty for doing so? I mean every damn retard out there with a conspiracy theory thinks he is the first person to ever read that book. I notice a distinct lack of Animal Farm quoting and referencing however.

Well except it was George Orwell....otherwise I agree

[mrfreeze]

Yeah I caught that right after I posted it :P

[sphenisc]

No, I just imagine a boot stamping on their face - forever.


:)

[Dog Town]

When they could go watch the great film 1984 and a 1/2,... I mean BRAZIL!
Good humor might come from it atleast!

[bob_kark]

I think I'm more sick of the V for Vendetta references...

[brodski]

That George Orwell hadn't written 1984 so that retards would quit referencing it and acting like they are original or witty for doing so? I mean every damn retard out there with a conspiracy theory thinks he is the first person to ever read that book. I notice a distinct lack of Animal Farm quoting and referencing however.

No, I think Orwell had a vital message in both 1984 and Animal farm, the problem is, people have forgotten what the message was in 1984- especially the nutbars who think that it was an attack on fascism.
Although I do wish he had never invented the term "big brother" I hate reality TV ;)

Also, I think both 1984 and Animal farm (as well as Down and out in London and Paris, and Homage to Catalonia) are absolutely fantastic books, which many, many more people should read, and understand. I would reomand the more politically minded taking a look at “The lion and the Unicorn” and some of his other essays as well- even if you disagree with his arguments and conclusions, they are fantastically written.

[Graham2001]

I notice a distinct lack of Animal Farm quoting and referencing however.

Pseudo-Leftists & Faux-Revolutionaries are never going to quote that, they don't want people to realize that the real work of a revolution comes after the corrupt powers are overthrown, to rebuild the state in the new image and to ensure that new dictators do not arise.

The perfect examples are the American & French Revolutions. The US (more or less) succeeded in this and the French failed.

[brodski]

I think I'm more sick of the V for Vendetta references...
The trouble is, the LC nutters totally missunderstand that story as well.

[brodski]

Pseudo-Leftists & Faux-Revolutionaries are never going to quote that, they don't want people to realize that the real work of a revolution comes after the corrupt powers are overthrown, to rebuild the state in the new image and to ensure that new dictators do not arise.
But that's a lot of the point of 1984 as well.

[mrfreeze]

The trouble is, the LC nutters totally missunderstand that story as well.

That's because instead of reading the comic they just went and saw the "Oh my god George Bush is evil" movie version.

[gumboot]

The trouble is, the LC nutters totally missunderstand that story as well.

One thing I am curious of... V for Vendetta seems to turn Guy Fawkes into a hero...

Is that a really obvious Americanisation? Or is there support of what Fawkes did in the UK? I thought the Brits were still fairly supportive of the monarchy.

(Incidentally, I find it funny that the US ditched the British because their head of state was a meanie... the US head of state has significantly more power than the UK head of state...)

-Andrew

[mrfreeze]

That's how it was in the comic, so perhaps Alan Moore supported it. Either that or he just needed an appropriate mask.

[brodski]

That's because instead of reading the comic they just went and saw the "Oh my god George Bush is evil" movie version.
That's only beceaue peopel see what they want to see in that movie (I incldue myself in this as well ;) ). I don't see that the political message of of V for Vendetta changed much, but as with all art, context is vital.

[mrfreeze]

From what I remember, Alan Moore wanted his name off of the movie because they changed the conflict from fascism vs anarchy, to fascism vs democracy.

Personally, I was a little put off by the fact that they needed to beat you over the head with the symbolism. Particularly in the scene where she was standing in the rain. Don't want to say more in case it contains spoilers.

[Graham2001]

But that's a lot of the point of 1984 as well.

But the people I'm referring to (however vaguely) do not see the similarity, instead they hold up conditions today to the mirror presented by 1984 and go "we're living in a dictatorship, see here, Orwell wrote/said..."

[gumboot]

That's only beceaue peopel see what they want to see in that movie (I incldue myself in this as well ;) ). I don't see that the political message of of V for Vendetta changed much, but as with all art, context is vital.


That's probably why I didn't see any of the overt "Bush = satan" stuff in the film. All I wanted to see was Natalie Portman. And that's what I saw...;)

-Andrew

[brodski]

One thing I am curious of... V for Vendetta seems to turn Guy Fawkes into a hero...

Is that a really obvious Americanisation? Or is there support of what Fawkes did in the UK? I thought the Brits were still fairly supportive of the monarchy.

(Incidentally, I find it funny that the US ditched the British because their head of state was a meanie... the US head of state has significantly more power than the UK head of state...)

-Andrew

In the original book Moore tried to turn Fawlks into a hero- therefore it's not an Americanism at all, however it is not generally in keeping with the British view of Fawlks.
the real Guy Fawlks was an foreign trained terrorist, sent on a suicide mission to blow up a national monument and murder many people, in an effort to institute a theocracy. Sound familiar?
As far as I can tell, most UK subjects are ambivalent at best towards the current Royal family.

[brodski]

But the people I'm referring to (however vaguely) do not see the similarity, instead they hold up conditions today to the mirror presented by 1984 and go "we're living in a dictatorship, see here, Orwell wrote/said..."
I quite agree- they misuse Orwell in the same way that the misuse all other evidence.

[brodski]

From what I remember, Alan Moore wanted his name off of the movie because they changed the conflict from fascism vs anarchy, to fascism vs democracy.

Personally, I was a little put off by the fact that they needed to beat you over the head with the symbolism. Particularly in the scene where she was standing in the rain. Don't want to say more in case it contains spoilers.
That's not the story I find most plausible, given that Moore has disassociated himself from all movie adaptations he has currently sold the rights for. It think it has more to do with the hassle he got over the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

[Graham2001]

I quite agree- they misuse Orwell in the same way that the misuse all other evidence.

And that is one of the two things that most infuriates me about them. The other is their failure to look beyond the initial goal, be it 'global mutiny' or stopping the war in Iraq.

At the time of the initial protests no-one seemed to be thinking in terms of what would happen if they didn't stop the war.

I asked a question in which I sketched out a situation vaguely similar to the actual one and asked what the person I asked would do. Most of the responses were no-answer answers and on a couple of occasions I was threatened with violence because I was a 'warmonger'!

Similarly current thinking does not seem to have got much beyond 'pull the troops out'. But then it didn't get much further than that in the late '60s - early 70's either.

[bob_kark]

From what I remember, Alan Moore wanted his name off of the movie because they changed the conflict from fascism vs anarchy, to fascism vs democracy.
You can still pick up on that storyline in the film, in that V's main drive seems less to be about freedom and more about destroying the government. In fact, its almost a plot within the plot. He talks about bringing freedom, etc... However, his actions seem to defy that very cause.

He's hell bent on revenge, kills anyone who gets in his way, torutures Evy, steals whatever he want's from the government, and jeopardizes the lives of all the people in who gather around parlament on Guy Fawke's day just so that he can finalize his revenge in a glorious explosion and final fracturing of the government.
So I think the plot's still there even if it is unintentional. Actions speak louder than words.

[gumboot]

He talks about bringing freedom, etc... However, his actions seem to defy that very cause.


Remind you of a certain "truth" movement much?

-Andrew

[bob_kark]

Remind you of a certain "truth" movement much?

-Andrew
I do love irony!

[brodski]

At the time of the initial protests no-one seemed to be thinking in terms of what would happen if they didn't stop the war.

So going in without a plan was a better choice than staying out without a plan? :confused:

[gumboot]

I do love irony!

The Loose Change forum, it's like V for Vendetta, but without Natalie Portman or a Dario Marianelli score.

-Andrew

[bob_kark]

The Loose Change forum, it's like V for Vendetta, but without Natalie Portman or a Dario Marianelli score.

-Andrew
If it were adapted to a daytime soap opera for preteens.

Killtown, I just... don't... know if I can trust you... without calling you first... I'm sorry... but you'll... have to leave...

Don't go...

Yes... go now, you must!!!

[Graham2001]

So going in without a plan was a better choice than staying out without a plan? :confused:

No and I didn't think so at the time either, but there was only so much recycling of Vietnam era slogans & retoric that I could stand.

Having the Australian Prime Minister (a man I disagree with on most things) confronted by protesters who were younger than I was (I was born the year the US pulled out of Vietnam) chanting "Hey! Hey! How many kids did you kill today!" before the troops had gone in was IMHO proof of a decided lack of imagination on the part of those running the protests.

[brodski]

The Loose Change forum, it's like V for Vendetta, but without Natalie Portman or a Dario Marianelli score.

-Andrew
And without Stephen Fry, a fantastic wit who is great in everything he does, and an outspoken skeptic to boot!

[brodski]

No and I didn't think so at the time either, but there was only so much recycling of Vietnam era slogans & retoric that I can stand.

Having the Australian Prime Minister (a man I disagree with on most things) confronted by protesters who were younger than I was (I was born the year the US pulled out of Vietnam) chanting "Hey! Hey! How many kids did you kill today!" before the troops had gone in was IMHO proof of a decided lack of imagination on the part of those running the protests.

I agree that the protest slogans where piss poor, and many of the organisers for protests are nutters of the first degree, but then the opponent of my opponent is not necessarily my friend (I think enemy is too strong a word for me in this context)

[Graham2001]

I agree that the protest slogans where piss poor, and many of the organisers for protests are nutters of the first degree, but then the opponent of my opponent is not necessarily my friend (I think enemy is too strong a word for me in this context)

It was more than that, from my point of view those people really did think that:

Iraq=Vietnam (wrong Dien Ben Phu would seem more appropriate.)

Bin Laden = Ho Chi Minh (wrong, insult to Ho Chi Minh)

Bush(the Younger) = L B Johnson

Like a great many things, this is not the 1960s/70s and things are not that simple, if they ever were....

[brodski]

It was more than that, from my point of view those people really did think that:

Iraq=Vietnam (wrong Dien Ben Phu would seem more appropriate.)

Bin Laden = Ho Chi Minh (wrong, insult to Ho Chi Minh)

Bush(the Younger) = L B Johnson

Like a great many things, this is not the 1960s/70s and things are not that simple, if they ever were....
I agree, provided that you don’t believe that “those people” is a group which includes everyone opposed to the Iraq invasion.

[gumboot]

Iraq=Vietnam (wrong Dien Ben Phu would seem more appropriate.)


If Iraq = Vietnam I guess inflation has caused the value of a human life to increase by a good 10x since 1960/70.

-Andrew

[brodski]

If Iraq = Vietnam I guess inflation has caused the value of a human life to increase by a good 10x since 1960/70.

-Andrew
How does inflation incresae value?

[Graham2001]

I agree, provided that you don’t believe that “those people” is a group which includes everyone opposed to the Iraq invasion.

I don't, I opposed it, I just understood that the task of stopping it was a lot harder than most people thought and that thought had to be given to mitigating the consequences afterward if it could not be stopped.

[brodski]

I don't, I opposed it, I just understood that the task of stopping it was a lot harder than most people thought and that thought had to be given to mitigating the consequences afterward if it could not be stopped.
In that case we are totally on the same page.

[gumboot]

How does inflation incresae value?

I guess it depends if you're buying or selling...

The value of a human life has increased so the government gets less war for the number of lives expended.

-Andrew

[Beleth]

That George Orwell hadn't written 1984 so that retards would quit referencing it and acting like they are original or witty for doing so?
Not as much as I wish The Matrix hadn't been made, for the same reason.

[Pardalis]

Yeah I caught that right after I posted it :P

Your mistake is understandable, Orson Welles and George Orwell are anagrams. :D

ETA: (well, almost)

[Pardalis]

In the original book Moore tried to turn Fawlks into a hero- therefore it's not an Americanism at all, however it is not generally in keeping with the British view of Fawlks.
[COLOR=black]the real Guy Fawlks was an foreign trained terrorist, sent on a suicide mission to blow up a national monument and murder many people, in an effort to institute a theocracy. Sound familiar?

Yeah, that's exactly the feeling I got when I saw it. I was embarrassed that they gave this OBL-type character so much glorification. And people bought in to that. I keep saying to people who saw it : "Don't you think they are making people like OBL the heros? Don't you think that's sick?" And they all reply: "the government should be afraid of its people"...

Bunch of idiots, they are.

He's blowing up buildings for crying out loud! And the Nathalie Portman character got brainwashed. Yeah, what a hero allright... :rolleyes:

And what about that "there are no coincidences" crap. I literally want to punch someone in the mouth when someone says that to me. ("Oops, my fist briefly coincided with you jaw there, sorry")

[Darth Rotor]

Yeah, that's exactly the feeling I got when I saw it. I was embarrassed that they gave this OBL-type character so much glorification. And people bought in to that. I keep saying to people who saw it : "Don't you think they are making people like OBL the heros? Don't you think that's sick?" And they all reply: "the government should be afraid of its people"...

Bunch of idiots, they are.

He's blowing up buildings for crying out loud! And the Nathalie Portman character got brainwashed. Yeah, what a hero allright... :rolleyes:

And what about that "there are no coincidences" crap. I literally want to punch someone in the mouth when someone says that to me. ("Oops, my fist briefly coincided with you jaw there, sorry")
Hi

V for Vendetta was written in the 1980's as a graphic novel. The story was more or less the same in the film, with a few details cut out in underground / crime figure relations.

The core target of Moore's pointed finger was over controlling government in a fairly standard English based dystopian future.

Moore's solution is anarchy, out of which allegedly a "free" country will arise, but like most anarchists, he forgets that anarchy, in practice, is a temporary state that is typically followed in revolutions by a return to tyranny or authoritarian control of whoever filled the power vacuum.

The Who, rock band, at least understood that, in the clincher line from "Won't Get Fooled Again:" meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Moore's story is also a bit of a rant for diversity, and against institutional bigotry, but it confuses means and ends. The core story line is about means, to end a dictatorship, but never addresses the true end, which is how the newer, better future is formed and structured. All it was, as a story, is "toss the buggers out since they aren't nice and have killed off all of the art fags."

The film couldn't really improve on that and remain even closely linked to the graphic novel, so the film ends as emptily as the graphic novel: OK, the wicked witch is dead, what now?

I still enjoyed it enough not to regret the purchase of the ticket.

DR

[brodski]

Yeah, that's exactly the feeling I got when I saw it. I was embarrassed that they gave this OBL-type character so much glorification. And people bought in to that. I keep saying to people who saw it : "Don't you think they are making people like OBL the heros? Don't you think that's sick?" And they all reply: "the government should be afraid of its people"...

Bunch of idiots, they are.

He's blowing up buildings for crying out loud! And the Nathalie Portman character got brainwashed. Yeah, what a hero allright... :rolleyes:

And what about that "there are no coincidences" crap. I literally want to punch someone in the mouth when someone says that to me. ("Oops, my fist briefly coincided with you jaw there, sorry")
protagonist != hero, V is a class A *****, he repeatedly admits himself that he is a monster who not only deserves to die, but needs to die. It makes for an entertaining story, but anyone who takes their political philosophy from comic book characters has bigger problems frankly.
Also the V character is nothing like the real fawlks, or even the popular image of fawlks, he’s painted pretty clearly as a nutter who happens to have fixated on a warped interpretation of a mythologized historical failure, look at V’s anti- catholic/ high Anglican killing spree. I find it more interesting to see V as a character warped by a misunderstanding of history, her uses the 1812 overture to celebrate freedom FFS!