Racism in Our Universities

[Tony]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A7902-2003May18?language=printer

PHILADELPHIA -- As the master of ceremonies called their names, the black seniors proudly strode to the front of the room to receive colorful pieces of kente cloth marking their impending graduation from the University of Pennsylvania.

The students solemnly called out the names of their elders as poet and social worker Kamau McRae poured water on a plant in an African libation ritual. Afterward, the students laughed and cried as they leafed through their black student yearbooks and offered heartfelt tributes to their favorite professors, to staff members and to one another.

The presentation of the class of 2003 was the central event at this year's Black Senior Celebration. The ceremony here, attended by almost half of the university's 140 black graduating seniors, followed separate celebrations that honored Asian American and Latino seniors in the weeks leading up to Penn's general graduation ceremony today. University officials say these racially and ethnically themed ceremonies are a way for minority students to celebrate their cultural connections as well as their ability to overcome the special challenges they face at predominantly white universities.

I guess "diversity", "multiculturalism" and "tolerance" only apply if you are white.

[Jon_in_london]

I love the way "African Americans" go around inventing "African" rituals and culture. Its almost as amusing as Wiccans.

:D :rolleyes:

[DavidJames]

The link didn't work for me. Can you explain why this is racism? Were whites excluded from the events?

[Blue Monk]

Jeez guys.

I'm really sorry you had the misfortune to be born white males.

Get over it.

[Tony]

Originally posted by DavidJames
The link didn't work for me.

It should work now.

Can you explain why this is racism?

Its racism because the criteria for participation was race based.


Were whites excluded from the events?

I dont think the article says, and it doesnt matter.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Blue Monk


I'm really sorry you had the misfortune to be born white males.




Thats what we should say next time a black guy is dragged behind a truck. "Im sorry, your black, thats reason enough for people to dislike you, get over it". :rolleyes:

[corplinx]

American blacks are mostly descended from west africans. Therefore you could say they makeup a distinct cultural group. Irish students probably went out and got drunk together. "White" in and of itself is not a distinct cultural group.

[DavidJames]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism

1) The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

2) Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Which of these definitions do you feel applies here?

[Tony]

Originally posted by DavidJames



Its racism because the criteria for participation was race based.

Discrimination based on race.

[DavidJames]

"Discrimination based on race."

How and in what way were whites discriminated against?

[Tony]

Originally posted by DavidJames
"Discrimination based on race."

How and in what way were whites discriminated against?

Because, they are separate ceremonies for black students, exclusion of whites is implied.

[Dancing David]

Did any fraternities have parties?

It is an interesting point, are people who start a Illinois Students association discriminatory? I suppose there would be a cry if there was a group of white students celebrating, oh, they already do, oh.

The Rightists on this board have ofeten defended the right of private groups to set thier own ground rules. guess that applies here.

Where is the discrimination? Were people harmed by this, in my town we have alot of cross over whites, who live the 'black' lifestyle, I think there would be a case for discrimination of someone like that was refused to be allowed to participate.

Strangely enough Diversity is encouraged by small groups participating in these kind of gatherings, the fact that they are allowed to do it is diversity.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Dancing David
Did any fraternities have parties?

It is an interesting point, are people who start a Illinois Students association discriminatory? I suppose there would be a cry if there was a group of white students celebrating, oh, they already do, oh.

The Rightists on this board have ofeten defended the right of private groups to set thier own ground rules. guess that applies here.

Where is the discrimination? Were people harmed by this, in my town we have alot of cross over whites, who live the 'black' lifestyle, I think there would be a case for discrimination of someone like that was refused to be allowed to participate.

Strangely enough Diversity is encouraged by small groups participating in these kind of gatherings, the fact that they are allowed to do it is diversity.


Would you object to a "White American Graduation"?

[DavidJames]

"Because, they are separate ceremonies for black students, exclusion of whites is implied."

I tend to lean towards the first definition of racism that I posted. So based on what I've read I don't believe this is racism. I don't get hung up on issues like this one. Intent is important for me in my decision. I don't feel the intent here is to suggest superiority or inferiority.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by Tony



Would you object to a "White American Graduation"?

I hate to break it to you but a "White American Graduation" is the default.

Would I object to say a German American Ceremony? Or an Irish American Ceremony? Or an Italian American Ceremony. Or a Greek American ceremony?

Of course not.

The real question is would you have posted this article if it was an Irish American Ceremony?

Somehow I suspect that wouldn’t smack as much of discrimination to you.

[Michael Redman]

One anecdote does not imply the general condition of "Our Universities" as your thread title suggests.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Blue Monk


I hate to break it to you but a "White American Graduation" is the default.



No its not. If it was the default then every other group would not be present. A "White American Graduation" would be for white american students. Just like a black graduation, is for black students.

[corplinx]

Contrary to popular belief, seperatism does not mean racism. Although the two are often found hand in hand.

[renata]

Tony,

Interestingly, you supported a whites only prom before, so you should not have a problem with this

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18692

I really don’t see the big deal. Blacks have their own channel, their own dorms, their own frats, their own black history month, their own caucus in congress, their own special interest group, and affirmative action. It's only fair that a few white kids get to have their own dance before they enter into a society that sees them as a dispensable.

[Tony]

Originally posted by renata
Tony,

Interestingly, you supported a whites only prom before, so you should not have a problem with this

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18692




I didnt support the white-only prom per se. But my point was, that if other racial groups get special treatment, than so should whites. Fair is fair. IMO its all racism.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Tony



Would you object to a "White American Graduation"?

Would I personaly , no. As long as it wasn't the only graduation and there was a generic graduation that all could attend. But then I am a libertarian leftist.

What ritual would a 'White' graduation have hmm, beer drinking...uh, intellectual bashing...hmm

[Tony]

Originally posted by Dancing David


What ritual would a 'White' graduation have hmm, beer drinking...uh, intellectual bashing...hmm

whats this supposed to mean?

[Dancing David]

(weak attempt at humor)

[kedo1981]

The more black Americans can embrace themselves, love what they are, accept their value as distinct human beings the better off the whole country is.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by Tony


No its not. If it was the default then every other group would not be present. A "White American Graduation" would be for white american students. Just like a black graduation, is for black students.

Where in that article does it say that this ceremony is reserved exclusively for blacks? I know that is your assumption but no where does it state that and I have no doubt that that is not the case.

The fact is every single ceremonial and symbolic aspect of a traditional graduation is of white European origin. If I am incorrect about this I would truly love to know exactly what aspect is not.

I find it totally absurd that anyone would take offense to the fact that any ethnic group would like to hold a ceremony that more accurately reflects their own personal heritage. If you wanted to hold a ceremony that more accurately reflects a white European heritage I sure as hell have no idea what you would change but that would be fine with me.

Would you object to an Irish-American oriented ceremony? Since you did not answer before it tends to make me believe that you would not have any problem at all with that.

[BobK]

I thought America was supposed to be "The great melting pot".

Yet it seems that all this diversity stuff that's espoused does nothing but keep people divided into different groups.

It seems rather counter productive to me.

WHy would someone want to celebrate coming from a country or continent where their own people sold them into slavery?

I would think they would want to assimilate as soon as possble into their new society.:confused:

[c0rbin]

At A & M University in Texas, you get consideration if your parents were alumni.

I believe this is true in most universities across the nation.

It is a fact that black people weren't allowed to attend most universities across the US a scant 50 years ago.

Seems to me that a non-race-based policy, the alumni regard, has quite an effect in the area of race.

This makes a case for some sort of special admitions considerations for minorities--a policy based on race, if you will--to overcome certain inequities.

Seems fair to me since I didn't have to worry about such policies. There were plenty of options for me, a middle class white man of college-educated parents.

[athon]

While I don't know the story behind this article (hence won't comment on it specifically) I do think we have to be careful to not fall into the whole 'equality for all' trap.

Pauline Hanson (an infamous Queensland politician) danced around with this view, and caused quite a fuss through the same tactics. She got huge support from Australians through touting the whole 'reverse racism' argument, although through complete ignorance.

Equality is bad. It demands that everybody is served equally.

It neglects to see that we are not all equal. Some have more than others by way of opportunity, education, social awareness, economy, health...and so on.

Equity, strictly speaking, should ideally balance out the demands of society, giving more to those who need it, to create and eventual outcome of equality. Equity is harder to enact because, unlike equality, it relies on subjective analysis of what constitutes a deficit.

Again, I'm not referring to this article. But perhaps there might be more to the picture.

Athon

[c0rbin]

I think when people cry "racism" on issues like this, they are right. This is a race-based policy.

However I also wonder if they forget how recent it was in our history that black folk had to risk their lives to enjoy the freedoms and benefits of the US Constitution.

The word is "opportunity."

[BillyTK]

Is the idea that if minorities want to enjoy the same social benefits as the majority, they should be assimilated into the majority? Even though the majority is actually a loose collection of minorities anyway, albeit with less obvious physical differentiation?

[Skeptic]

I don't get it. Why is this racist?

Sure, there probably wouldn't be a "white student" day or graduation, but that's because "whites" are NOT an ethnic group, while blacks are. The reason a "white day" would be looked upon as racist is because the original category of "white" was set up, not because white people in general had any general tradition or common denominator, but merely as an exclusive club: it designated anybody who was not part of the "inferior" black (or red) races as having full rights. For this reason, a white student's association or organization would (probably justly) be suspected of MERELY wanting to exclude blacks, since there aren't really any cultural or social common denominators for whites in general EXCEPT for not being black.

Nobody, however, objects to the myriads of legitimate social and cultural student's association, such as the "Italian-American students" or "Irish students", that DO have a legitimate cultural heritage and history, even if they do exclude blacks (and jews, and WASPs, for that matter). The reason, of coursei ,is that the exclusion is not the purpose of the club, but simply due to the fact that most Irish or Italians immigrants to America were not jewish, WASPs, or black.

Yes, I know: It IS true that, technically speaking, blacks are no more one people than whites are; if anything, they are more diverse in ethnic origins. But that is besides the point: most Africans who came to the US did lose their previous national identity in the process, for a variety of reasons, and therefore simply do not have any more specific ethnic heritage than "black" or "African". Also, most Africans in the US DO share many common experiences (such as slavery) and a cultural history that applied to american blacks in general (say, gospel singing and Jazz, to give two obvious examples). This new-world black culture did not distinguish any more between the different tribes or nations the blacks who had it might have been from.

This is why "African" became an ethnic group, so to speak, replacing the "true", but by now totally lost, older tribal deisgnations. This doesn't apply to "whites"--who have neither the shared experiences nor the shared culture in the sense blacks do; only smaller groups of whites (e.g., Irish-Americans, Polish-Americans, etc.) can lay a claim to their own heritage and culture and thus be considered an ethnic group in any real sense.

[Skeptic]

Discrimination based on race.

How were the white people "discriminated" against here? By not being allowed to claim a African heritage? Of course they aren't--they don't have such an heritage!

I doubt there are too many blacks in, say, the irish St. Patrick's day parade--becuase black people didn't come from Ireland and therefore have no irish heritage. So? Is this "discrimination"? Of course not.

Not every difference is discrimination. You might as well claim that your doctor won't send you to have a pregmancy test just because you're a man, so you are being "discriminated" against--obviously, the doctor does NOT treat you EXACTLY LIKE they treat female patients!

[c0rbin]

Is the idea that if minorities want to enjoy the same social benefits as the majority, they should be assimilated into the majority?

Apo-pologies, BillyTK, what do you mean by "assimilated into the majority"?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Skeptic
I don't get it. Why is this racist?

Sure, there probably wouldn't be a "white student" day or graduation, but that's because "whites" are NOT an ethnic group, while blacks are.

I disagree, whites are an ethnic group. Most whites in the US dont identify with "their heritage", myself included. A "White American" (whites of american heritage) graduation would be not be accepted and would be considered racist by the pc nazis.

[Thumper]

Separate but equal?

The supreme court held that separate is inherently unequal.
(Brown v. Board)

[Fade]

I agree with Tony.

The only culture blacks in the US have right now is the one they've developed since coming here. It's ridiculous to point out their simple lineage as a "tie" to Africa, because nobody in their living memory has ANY actual direct experience with Africa or it's customs.

Put it this way:

My family is almost entirely Irish. I was born, as were all of my family (with a few exclusions) in Ireland. My culture is, therefore Irish.

However, a few thousand years ago nobody lived in Ireland. So, my culture would be probably Germanic. But before that, nobody lived there. So my culture is probably Roman or Greek. But before that, nobody lived there. So my culture is probably middle eastern or north african. So on, and so on, and so on.

I am all for celebrating your roots, and I would encourge blacks in the US to love themselves, and the culture they have, and the culture their ancestors belonged too. But, it isn't their culture, almost by definition.

Anyway, tangent.

I also believe that racism is a word that MUST BE applied equally in every direction. When a black person discriminates against me, it IS RACISM. Plain and simple. Perceived injustice has no bearing on my relationship with you or anyone. I like the idea of holding cultural or ethnic ceremonies. However, I believe it must be made clear that if any given person is excluded from any given ceremony, that everyone that doesn't fit a certain description must be excluded from all of them.

IE, if you want an all black fraternity, then no blacks ought to be allowed in white fraternities.

All or nothing.

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by Thumper
Separate but equal?

The supreme court held that separate is inherently unequal.
(Brown v. Board)

So, in your opinion, the supreme court would ban seperate but equal public toilets for men and women? Should a public university's Catholic chaplain's office be equally open to Jews as it is to Catholics? What about the local chapter of Armed Forces veterans? Must it be open to people who never served in the armed forces? Should NO publically-funded organization make ANY sort of distinction between ANYBODY?

"Seperate and equal" is inherently unequal in certain contexts, not so in others. That famous supereme court decision meant that so-called "seperate but equal" public schools were inherently unequal. It certainly didn't imply that ALL public activities must be equally open to ALL people.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Tony


No its not. If it was the default then every other group would not be present. A "White American Graduation" would be for white american students. Just like a black graduation, is for black students.

The issue is that the traditions, customs, and methods of our culture have been defined by whites. At standard graduation everyone is included for having a ceremony the "white way".

Would you object to having one and only graduation where everyone and to wear those African robes with those funny African hats, and use African customs?

Would that be better?

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by c0rbin


Apo-pologies, BillyTK, what do you mean by "assimilated into the majority"?

Oops--only just spotted your question; sorry Corbin!

Basically assimilation is where a minority group dumps their own culture and adopts the culture of the host country (the white majority in the case of the US & UK), either by choice or coercion (but normally the latter). Reading these kind of threads there seems to be two basic themes; anything that Black people "receive" on account of their Blackness is some kind of privilege, because whites don't get similar on account of their whiteness; and if Black people want equality they should stop being "Black"--i.e. drop their culture. Both themes sound like enforced assimilation.

[Ladewig]

The only culture blacks in the US have right now is the one they've developed since coming here. It's ridiculous to point out their simple lineage as a "tie" to Africa, because nobody in their living memory has ANY actual direct experience with Africa or it's customs.

While the vast majority might fit into that category, there are African immigrants coming to the U.S. every year. It is possible that one of these graduates was born in Africa. In general, however, I agree with you. Especially because Africa is not a mono-culture. If an immigrant were to celebrate his or her ethnic background it would be on a much more regional or national level.

Basically assimilation is where a minority group dumps their own culture and adopts the culture of the host country (the white majority in the case of the US & UK), either by choice or coercion (but normally the latter). Reading these kind of threads there seems to be two basic themes; anything that Black people "receive" on account of their Blackness is some kind of privilege, because whites don't get similar on account of their whiteness; and if Black people want equality they should stop being "Black"--i.e. drop their culture. Both themes sound like enforced assimilation.

I believe there is a middle way. Some immigrants do not dump their own culture to adopt the culture of the host country, they influence the host culture as the assimilate. 100 years ago, Southeast Asian cuisine was considered exotic and rare; now it is very common. Soccer is now ubiquitously present in grade schools. Blacks have gotten the short end of the stick for a few centuries, but I cannot believe that embracing an artifically-constructed culture (which seems almost entirely focused on living in the U.S., while ignoring all the bloodshed occurring in African countries) is the solution. Blacks are the only racial or ethnic group that have been in this country for more than ten generations and still have an accent.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Ladewig


Blacks are the only racial or ethnic group that have been in this country for more than ten generations and still have an accent.



have and accent? Isnt that more of a dialect. An African born immigrant has a whole different accent vs. some American Black.

Southern whites have been in this country more than 10 generations and still have an accent! (doesnt this sound silly)

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Ladewig
I believe there is a middle way. Some immigrants do not dump their own culture to adopt the culture of the host country, they influence the host culture as the assimilate. 100 years ago, Southeast Asian cuisine was considered exotic and rare; now it is very common. Soccer is now ubiquitously present in grade schools. Blacks have gotten the short end of the stick for a few centuries, but I cannot believe that embracing an artifically-constructed culture (which seems almost entirely focused on living in the U.S., while ignoring all the bloodshed occurring in African countries) is the solution. Blacks are the only racial or ethnic group that have been in this country for more than ten generations and still have an accent.
Um... all cultures are artificial, it's kind of their nature (sic). And talking of accents--well, I'm British; to me you all talk funny. Anyway, another option is integration, in which groups try and mix'n'match to everyone's benefit; but that's kind of hard when your culture takes shape in reponse to treatment by the majority, which kind of forcefully separated your ancestors from their culture.