Saudi executioner tells all

[zakur]

Saudi executioner tells all (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2966790.stm)

Saudi Arabia's leading executioner says he is "very proud to do God's work" and does not lose sleep over beheading several people in one day.

In a rare interview, Muhammad Saad al-Beshi, 42, told the Saudi daily Arab News that he had executed numerous women, as well as men.

"Despite the fact that I hate violence against women, when it comes to God's will, I have to carry it out."

He expressed indifference about the number of beheadings he was required to carry out.

"It doesn't matter to me: two, four, 10 - as long as I'm doing God's will, it doesn't matter how many people I execute".

[...]

Mr Beshi said his sword was a gift from the government.

He keeps it razor sharp and sometimes his children help him clean it.

"People are amazed how fast it can separate the head from the body," he said.More:

Executioner proud to do "God's work" (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=857&ncid=757&e=10&u=/nm/20030605/od_uk_nm/oukoe_life_saudi_executioner) (Yahoo! News)

Saudi executioner story (http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=5840) (Middle East Online)

Kingdom’s Leading Executioner Says: ‘I Lead a Normal Life’ (http://www.arabnews.com/?page=0&section=1&article=27038&d=5&m=6&y=2003) (Arab News)

[Genghis Pwn]

This is goddamn sickening and very angering!! :mad:

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
This is goddamn sickening and very angering!! :mad:
Really, Genghis? You are a foe of the death penalty? I must say you do have some surprises.

[Genghis Pwn]

An executioner’s life, of course, is not all killing. Sometimes it can be amputation of hands and legs. “I use a special sharp knife, not a sword,” he explains. “When I cut off a hand I cut it from the joint. If it is a leg the authorities specify where it is to be taken off, so I follow that.”

Arrr! If I met this guy I would kill him without a second's thought. I would f*cking kill this guy! Cutting off people's limbs with a knife, killing alcohol smugglers and women accused of cheating on their husbands. I guarantee I would kill him and spit on his dead body, then kick his face in. Piece of s*it.

[renata]

I hear a really interesting inerview with the last French executioner about a year ago. He wrote his memoirs- very interesting. Wish I could remember his name and the name of the book. He did his job, and was quite satisfied by it, he did not consider himself a sadist.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn


Arrr! If I met this guy I would kill him without a second's thought. I would f*cking kill this guy! Cutting off people's limbs with a knife, killing alcohol smugglers and women accused of cheating on their husbands. I guarantee I would kill him and spit on his dead body, then kick his face in. Piece of s*it.
He sounds like a public servant, fullfilling the laws of his country. You, on the other hand, sound like a homicidal maniac.

If you want to be mad at somebody, get mad at the people who make the laws, not the people who enforce them.

[shemp]

Why are you guys being so hard on the fellow? He just wanted to get ahead!

[Genghis Pwn]

How the hell am I going to go back in time and kill the "Prophet" Mohamed? No, this guy is using religion as an excuse for evil and murder. I would kill him in a second. Put me in the middle a desert with guy. I would pay good money for that chance.

[renata]

Would you also kill people who use government as an excuse for murder?

[Genghis Pwn]

renata, I am only speaking about this one case. Trust me, if this guy used a knife in cold blood to cut off your fathers feet or behead your husband or boyfriend, you might feel the same way. Evil on this scale is evil, I don't care how you justify it.

[renata]

So electric chair is OK, and decapitation is not?

Do you know what drawn and quartered means?


Do you object to governments passign barbaric laws or to people who carry out edicts of said government?

[Tricky]

What you object to is the law. And I agree with this. Those are brutal laws, but each country has the right to make it's own laws.

Many countries think that the US has barbaric laws because we allow executions. Using your logic, they would be completely justified in coming over here and killing the doctor who gave the lethal injection.

[renata]

Originally posted by Tricky
What you object to is the law. And I agree with this. Those are brutal laws, but each country has the right to make it's own laws.

Many countries think that the US has barbaric laws because we allow executions. Using your logic, they would be completely justified in coming over here and killing the doctor who gave the lethal injection.


I can always count on Tricky to say what I meant to say in a coherent manner :) Sometimes he does that before I even post!

[fishbob]

Part of GP's point is that Mr. Muhammad Saad al-Beshi likes his job. He keeps it (his sword) razor sharp and sometimes his children help him clean it. He is a sick SOB. The planet would be better off without him.

Passage of barbaric laws and making a career of carrying out those laws are both evil.

[chillzero]

Originally posted by fishbob
Part of GP's point is that Mr. Muhammad Saad al-Beshi likes his job. [B]He keeps it (his sword) razor sharp and sometimes his children help him clean it.

Would you rather he did his job with a dirty, rusty, blunt blade?

[De_Bunk]

I wonder if they read this board..

I hope they do...'cos here's my application..




Dear Sirs,

I wish to apply for the post of Executioner. I am a raging psychopath, but alas, the laws in my country have made execution in Gods name, very sterile and humane.

I have my own set of "Divine" killing instruments which i bought from the local hardware store, so no probs there.

I have many new ideas for killing in Gods name and ideas for new laws that you may consider implementing, ie: Looking at womens underwear catalogues, Walking too fast....these could also be instant death penalty offences, couldnt they. See im just full of cruel and inhumane thoughts.

Im sure Allah would not object to modernisation; a chainsaw would make for far more spectacle than a sword...The noise...the fumes...I could wave it about a bit and wear a hockey mask whilst grabbing my crotch, all in Allahs name of course.

Anyway...Im off to sharpen my secatuers...(The cat done a sh*t on the carpet and im gonna amputate its front paws)

Yours

De_Allah_Ed Gein_ Jeffrey Dahmer_Mohammed_Bunk

(And if you think i wouldnt send that to the Saudi Embassy...Think again...In fact..i think i will....Stay tuned...)

[Fade]

I feel that executioners are just as guilty of murder as anyone else that has killed. If you are given a choice, the only choice an ethical person can say is "no"

[Genghis Pwn]

Originally posted by Tricky
What you object to is the law. And I agree with this. Those are brutal laws, but each country has the right to make it's own laws.

First of all, I have very mixed emotions about the US death penalty. But, there is a difference between lethal injection given to a convicted mass murderer who has exhauted the best legal system the world can produce at this time (often having more than 20 years's worth of appeals), and a woman having her head chopped off with a sword because she kissed her next door neighbor. The courts in Saudi Arabia are ******** compared to courts in the US and Europe.

As for each country being able to have it's own laws, no. You can't pass a law making slavery legal in this day and age. You will get invaded. Cutting off peoples' hands will not be tolerated any more.

Like I said, I feel very strongly about this, just as I would if South Africa tried to bring back brutal apartheid. If I knew of a South African army general executing blacks and chopping their limbs off, and using Christianity or "goverment laws" as his excuse, I would kill him too. I would f*ck him up, trust me!

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Fade
I feel that executioners are just as guilty of murder as anyone else that has killed. If you are given a choice, the only choice an ethical person can say is "no"
Noble sentiments, but people have different ways of defining "murder". Almost nobody defines killing in self defense (or defense of family) as murder. Few people describe soldiers killing in a war as murder. When it comes to lawful execution, then there is a bigger split, but still the majority in the world feel that execution is regrettable, but sometimes necessary.

We differ (widely) on what we think makes it necessary, hence, the Commission on Human Rights tries to set some definitions.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn

First of all, I have very mixed emotions about the US death penalty. But, there is a difference between lethal injection given to a convicted mass murderer who has exhauted the best legal system the world can produce at this time (often having more than 20 years's worth of appeals), and a woman having her head chopped off with a sword because she kissed her next door neighbor. The courts in Saudi Arabia are ******** compared to courts in the US and Europe.
There is no significant difference in the methods of execution. If anything, beheadding is quicker, if bloodier. But the result is the same. As I say, I strongly agree that the laws that Saudi Arabia uses to judge what is a "death penalty" offense are barbaric. It is ironic that the US has not used its friendship with the Saudis to try and coerce them to change the laws.

Nevertheless, the point still remains that the executioner is guilty of nothing but enforcing the law. Personally, I couldn't bring myself to give a lethal injection to the most horrible of murderers, but I agree that someone should. If that person takes pride in doing a quick, painless job, then that is probably good, since we need someone to do that job. Actually, you would seem to be a good person to be an executioner since you seem to have no problem with killing, then defiling the corpses. All we have to do is convince you they needed killing.

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
As for each country being able to have it's own laws, no. You can't pass a law making slavery legal in this day and age. You will get invaded. Cutting off peoples' hands will not be tolerated any more.
Countries can and do go to war over their conflicting laws. They hire killers to go over and kill as many of the enemy as they can. Some people call this "civilized". As I say, I despise the human rights violations in Saudi Arabia, and it sickens me that they are considered our great allies. But unless you are prepared to overthrow their government, then you cannot make their laws.

I have actually heard no reports of Saddam's government routinely performing amputations. If that is the case, does that mean that he is (or was) more civilized than the Saudis?

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn

Like I said, I feel very strongly about this, just as I would if South Africa tried to bring back brutal apartheid. If I knew of a South African army general executing blacks and chopping their limbs off, and using Christianity or "goverment laws" as his excuse, I would kill him too. I would f*ck him up, trust me!
I am glad that you have such a high social consciousness, though it seems a bit at odds with your willingness to f*ck up, kill and defile those without your elevated sense of morality.

[De_Bunk]

I think the old USSR had a much better deterrent than the death penalty...

They used to put all the psycho's...serial killers, multiple child rapists and killers...Into this special prison...

The cells were 7ft long by 4ft wide, with a 4ft square cage to the rear, through a locked doorway which led outside into the cage.

The prisoners were kept in their cells 23 and 3/4 hours a day.

The toliet facilities was a constant running drain at the rear of the cell.. which everything had to go into.

They were let out for 1/4 hour a day and then they had to walk around the 4ft cage continuously for that time, watched constantly by the guards.

Upon arrival they are told that they are never allowed to speak another word again, to anyone. If they do, they are forced into the open roofed cage at the rear of their cell, and left there, for as long as the Governor decides...and it was not uncommon to go to the cage for a month.

They never see the guards, or the other prisoners due to high walls, (The cage is only the roof, not the sides) and they are fed minimum rations through a slot.

This was offered to convicted prisoners as an alternative to being executed...

Not many took up this offer..the minimum you served in this prison was 20 years..

But there was always the few...and half of them, after 6 months or so, requested to be put to death.

It had been closed down for a while, when i researched it, which was many years ago , so don't ask for links...sometime back in the 70's....

But im sure someone out there on this board will find it...it must be out there...somewhere...i just can't be a*sed to go looking..

But it did exist...

What would you prefer..????

DB

[Fade]

Noble sentiments, but people have different ways of defining "murder".

This leads down the slippery slope of justifiable death.

I don't even think wartime deaths are justified.

When it comes to lawful execution, then there is a bigger split, but still the majority in the world feel that execution is regrettable, but sometimes necessary.


Every civilized nation except the US feels it is barbaric.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by fishbob
Part of GP's point is that Mr. Muhammad Saad al-Beshi likes his job. He keeps it (his sword) razor sharp and sometimes his children help him clean it. He is a sick SOB. The planet would be better off without him.

Passage of barbaric laws and making a career of carrying out those laws are both evil.

From the article:

Before an execution he visits the victim's family to seek forgiveness for the criminal, which can lead to the criminal's life being spared.

"I always have that hope, until the very last minute, and I pray to God to give the criminal a new lease of life."


Also from the article:
He is proud that his son was taken on as an executioner.
Now I read about this guy some time ago, in a different article. In that one he was asked if he wanted any of his children to be executioners, and he said no, he wanted them to have a better life. That other article was also portrayed him as a far more reasonable person: it did not include perjorative phrases like "a taste for executions."

I do beleive this article is spun differently, and I do not find its portrayal of Beshi as genuine or convincing as I did the first one.

In any case, the fact that he alwas seeks mercy, and has won it for his victims on a number of times, indicates that perhaps he is not worthy of the unrestrained disgust Mr. Fishbob exudes.

I'm not even going to reply to Ghengis, because he's just a fool.

[Genghis Pwn]

Originally posted by Tricky

There is no significant difference in the methods of execution. If anything, beheadding is quicker, if bloodier. But the result is the same. As I say, I strongly agree that the laws that Saudi Arabia uses to judge what is a "death penalty" offense are barbaric. It is ironic that the US has not used its friendship with the Saudis to try and coerce them to change the laws.

Nevertheless, the point still remains that the executioner is guilty of nothing but enforcing the law. Personally, I couldn't bring myself to give a lethal injection to the most horrible of murderers, but I agree that someone should. If that person takes pride in doing a quick, painless job, then that is probably good, since we need someone to do that job. Actually, you would seem to be a good person to be an executioner since you seem to have no problem with killing, then defiling the corpses. All we have to do is convince you they needed killing.


Countries can and do go to war over their conflicting laws. They hire killers to go over and kill as many of the enemy as they can. Some people call this "civilized". As I say, I despise the human rights violations in Saudi Arabia, and it sickens me that they are considered our great allies. But unless you are prepared to overthrow their government, then you cannot make their laws.

I have actually heard no reports of Saddam's government routinely performing amputations. If that is the case, does that mean that he is (or was) more civilized than the Saudis?


I am glad that you have such a high social consciousness, though it seems a bit at odds with your willingness to f*ck up, kill and defile those without your elevated sense of morality.

Sorry, but you are apparently INTENT on disagreeing with me, so I won't waste any more time trying.

Anyone who defends what this man is doing because "he's only following the law" or whatever better be prepared to say that the Nazi's who ran the death camps in WWII and killed millions of innocent people are "guilty only of doing their job and following the law."

I simply don't buy it. Not for a second.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Fade

This leads down the slippery slope of justifiable death.
Indeed it does. It is an extremely hard thing to define, but do you at least agree that you would kill (or take actions that might prove lethal to the attacker) to defend your family? People draw the line at different places.
Originally posted by Fade

I don't even think wartime deaths are justified.
If soldiers invaded my country and started killing my friends and family, I would fight. Wouldn't you?

Originally posted by Fade

Every civilized nation except the US feels it is barbaric.
This leads us down the slippery slope of "what does civilized mean". I consider both Russia and China to be civilized countries, though I disagree with them on a lot of things.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Fade


This leads down the slippery slope of justifiable death.

I don't even think wartime deaths are justified.



Every civilized nation except the US feels it is barbaric.
Some deaths are justifiable. How can you not see that? It is not death that makes the death penalty immoral, it is the difficulty and expense of applying it correctly and without endangering innocents or society at large. Simply killing some poor broken beyond repair monster is not a moral crime. Ed knows I can think of half a dozen people I would shoot without blinking , if I could somehow gauruntee it wouldn't lead to more people doing the same thing.

Besides, on what is your moral outrage founded? Don't you believe that morality is merely social construction, in which case the problem here is not the death penalty, but rather that you were not properly socialized to share your society's values.

[Note to the casual reader: Fade and I have long argued over whether or not morality is objective. I think it is, and hence I can answer the question I just put to Fade.]

[Genghis Pwn]

I truly find it disgraceful that certain people refuse to admit that chopping someone's head off for kissing someone is a million times worse than being executed for murdering people in cold blood.

Do you know that men are decapitated for homosexuality in Saudi Arabia as well?

[Yahzi]

I googled for this story. Check out the Arab News:

He started at a prison in Taif, where his job was to handcuff and blindfold the prisoners before their execution. “Because of this background, I developed a desire to be an executioner,” he says.

Now compare that to Middle East Online:
He developed a taste for the work at a prison in Taif, handcuffing and blindfolding prisoners before execution.
So I guess I have to retract my complaint against the BBC: they apparently did not spin the story, but simply quoted a different source.

Still, you can see how those two paragraphs don't leave one with quite the same impression.

Unfortuantely, I could not find the original article I read.


One of the articles pictured the sword. I was amazed - it is a one-handed scimitar. That is (from a purely techinical point of view) rather impressive.

[Fade]

If soldiers invaded my country and started killing my friends and family, I would fight. Wouldn't you?

This knife goes both ways. It has come to the point where the US, Canada and Europe simply won't be invaded. We are always the aggressors, now.

but do you at least agree that you would kill (or take actions that might prove lethal to the attacker) to defend your family?

Perhaps in the heat of the moment i'd be able to do something like that. It would undoubtedly cause me to suicide later.

This leads us down the slippery slope of "what does civilized mean". I consider both Russia and China to be civilized countries, though I disagree with them on a lot of things.

I consider both of these places countries to be primitive, crude, and barbaric.

Some deaths are justifiable. How can you not see that?

I don't like drawing arbitrary lines, and I know for a fact those lines don't exist outside of my own mind. I prefer to err on the side of life.

[De_Bunk]

Genghis Pwn

I'm with you on this one...

I wouldnt give a flying piece of dog turd, if the whole stinking country was nuked...

Its time these idiot leaders, of these insane countries realised that its our way...or the USMC way...

DB

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
I truly find it disgraceful that certain people refuse to admit that chopping someone's head off for kissing someone is a million times worse than being executed for murdering people in cold blood.

Do you know that men are decapitated for homosexuality in Saudi Arabia as well?
Do you know they are decapitated for murder, too?

Nobody here is defending the killing of people for things that ought not be crimes. But that's not the only thing at stake here. Answer this question: if the executions were only imposed in cases of murder, would you still object to Mr. Beshi, or the fact that he takes pride in his work?

There are two separate issues here... oh, why am I bothering.

[chillzero]

Originally posted by De_Bunk
I think the old USSR had a much better deterrent than the death penalty...

They used to put all the psycho's...serial killers, multiple child rapists and killers...Into this special prison...

...
What would you prefer..????

DB

I was in the Peak District in England recently, and visited Abraham Heights, which has a few lead mines. Teh tour guide told us of the punishment for theft there years ago.
The thief was taken to the deepest, darkest part of the mine, and his hhand staked to a stone - through the hand. Then he was left overnight in the dark. Next day he would be visited again, and asked if he repented his sins. If not, he was left alone to die. If he did repent, they would go away, but leave him a candle and a knife, with which he was expected to cut off the hand that was staked down.

The guide said that theft was not a real problem in the area after that.

[Yahzi]

Fade
Perhaps in the heat of the moment i'd be able to do something like that. It would undoubtedly cause me to suicide later.
So, you don't really love your family that much. You are much more concerned with your lily-white moral report card than with anything mundane and pragmatic. You are less concerned with the suffering of your family members - either at the hands of criminals or at your own hands - than you are about your own arbitrary sense of purity.

I lose much respect for you. :(

don't like drawing arbitrary lines, and I know for a fact those lines don't exist outside of my own mind. I prefer to err on the side of life.
To err on the side of life is an arbitrary line. So it's not arbitrary lines you are against: it's merely lines you don't like.

[Genghis Pwn]

Originally posted by Yahzi

Answer this question: if the executions were only imposed in cases of murder, would you still object to Mr. Beshi, or the fact that he takes pride in his work?

There are two separate issues here... oh, why am I bothering.

Absolutely not! No I would not object to him or his pride in his work if he was only executing murderers. You seem to have completely misread me! I oppose the goverment-sanctioned crimes against humanity (mostly agaisnt women) that go on every day in muslim countries. I have been to Muslim countries. I have seen it. And I am ANGRY.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by cabby

The guide said that theft was not a real problem in the area after that.
And there is the part of the legend that is fictitious.

I'm sure the rest of it is true.

[Genghis Pwn]

I edited my remarks because they were mean. Sorry.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn


Absolutely not! No I would not object to him or his pride in his work if he was only executing murderers.
Well, if your objection is to unfair or unwarranted executions, I gauruntee you that absolutely everyone here agrees with you. No-one here supports punishment that does not fit the crime.

Except maybe De_Bunk... ;)

The point remains, this man is not entirely responsible for his evil. He actually tries to get his victims acquited, and in the first article I read, he recounted with pride the number of times he suceeded in not killing someone. I'm not saying he is an icon of goodness; just that he isn't on the same level as the Washington Sniper or Tim McViegh.

[chillzero]

On the other hand, Fade, I find it refreshing to see a person who recognises that killing a person may not be the easiest thing on earth to do. That it isn't all like clean and quick, and full of righteousness and glory.

Good for you.

I have also, unlike some others, noticed that you said that under extreme circumstances you might find it in you to kill someone from necessity. And followed that up with an assertion that you also might find that action hard to live with. I see no reason for blame for that, and it certainly does not imply to me that you love your family any less.

[Fade]

So, you don't really love your family that much.

Of course I do. Love isn't the ability to change yourself entirely to suit the needs of those you love. If they truly loved me, they would accept that I am unable to kill.

You are much more concerned with your lily-white moral report card than with anything mundane and pragmatic.

This has nothing to do with my lily-white morality. This has everything to do with the most fundamental aspect of human nature. We are animals that learn from others. Very little, to almost nothing, of our motivation comes from within. We derive everything we are from those around us. Within that community, we become who we are. Any random action, any chance decision, ripples throughout the continuum of our collective nature.

Any act of violence serves no purpose other than to create more violence around it. Each act brings us closer to killing ourselves. I have chosen to remove myself from that cycle. I have chosen to consider the best interests of my people, rather than the selfish best interests of my body. Protecting your family has nothing to do with your love for them, and everything to do with your inability to cope with the loss of your own support structure. That is the superficial, shallow love that we have learned the feel when faced with rigors and pain of this life.

Do you know what violence is? Have you ever been held down and forced to do terrible things? Have you ever had your choice stolen from you? That is what crime is. That is what all evil is. One person deciding that their choice is the best choice. Their interests are the only interests.

I am above, beyond, and outside this system. I will not have my choice stolen, nor will I take it from others. If our world is to become what I hope it can be, then we have to start somewhere. People have to stand firm in their resolve to not be a part of the corrupt, wicked system that has laid it's hand on all our lives. I figure, it might as well start with me.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky
Many countries think that the US has barbaric laws because we allow executions. Using your logic, they would be completely justified in coming over here and killing the doctor who gave the lethal injection.


If they really believed in such principles, it would be hypocritical to want him dead.

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by Fade
Any act of violence serves no purpose other than to create more violence around it. Each act brings us closer to killing ourselves. I have chosen to remove myself from that cycle. I have chosen to consider the best interests of my people, rather than the selfish best interests of my body. Protecting your family has nothing to do with your love for them, and everything to do with your inability to cope with the loss of your own support structure. That is the superficial, shallow love that we have learned the feel when faced with rigors and pain of this life.

In the bit I underlined you seems to heavily contradict to the other things you stated, especially this one:

Originally posted by Fade
I am above, beyond, and outside this system. I will not have my choice stolen, nor will I take it from others. If our world is to become what I hope it can be, then we have to start somewhere. People have to stand firm in their resolve to not be a part of the corrupt, wicked system that has laid it's hand on all our lives. I figure, it might as well start with me.

Don't you recognize that the things you said here (I love them) are really selfish. It's your choice, world, and hope.

And I suppose there is nothing more selfish, than saying "no" when someone asks you to kill another person.

[De_Bunk]

I dunno..

If i lived in a country that cut your hands off for stealing...

I guess i wouldnt steal...

Common sense really...

No Government will stand upto the Saudi's...

This world is run on Oil production...

And when it runs out.....and everything goes solar powered...

Hoo Boy !!!...Are they in for some serious a** whooping..

Hold the world to ransom will ya...ya head chopping, dishcloth wearing mutha's...

BTW...Any "Ungrateful" Iraqi's or "I make more money than a small country" Saudi's, in the audience tonite....:D

DB