Moderate Muslims speak out (sort of)

[Yahzi]

Given all the debate we have had about Islam and moderates, here is an interesting story that shows how both sides of that debate were right. There really are moderate Muslims, they really are the majority, and yet they really weren't being given a chance to speak - until the bombs starting hitting at home.

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/rnb/archives/00003422.html

Public debate has undergone a transformation since the bombings on May 12 that killed 25 people, including seven Saudis, at three residential compounds in the Saudi capital. It used to be taboo to even mention the word Wahhabi in print, and if you said it in conversation almost any Saudi would deny it existed as a separate school of thought.

That still happens, of course. But the terrorist attacks in the heart of Riyadh have, at least for the moment, transformed the discussion about the religious roots of Islamic militancy and how it spreads through mosques, schools, state television and other official institutions.

[Genghis Pwn]

Once they renounce the literal Koran itself, I might be hopeful.

[davefoc]

Genghis, what the hell are you talking about? Do you think the moderate Arabs should wait for the Americans to renounce the literal Bible. All that stuff about how God helped the Jews massacre the people in Jecricho because they happened to be on some land that God said blonged to the Jews.

Have you noticed the Bible is laced with violence, most of it pretty unjustified by todays standards? Do you think that biblical violence is cool, but the Koran's violence is bad? Do you think it is possible that most Muslims don't have a clue as to what's in the Koran sort of like there's lots of Christians going around wearing makeup, eating shellfish, and not taking their mold to be blessed by the priest that don't have a clue that all that stuff is proscribed by the bible?

[ManfredVonRichthoffen]

I can't believe I am going to vomit this one out there, but I agree with Gengis. {shudder}

The main problem I have with religion is the clinging belief that the bible(or any religious text) is the literal truth.

All hatred of science, of queers, of those who don't believe the same, all stems from taking the bible literally.

The reason we aren't forcing the world to become christians is because most americans don't take it literally. Those that do are bombing abortion clinics as we speak.

Everyone should treat the bible like a salad bar. Take what you want, and leave the rest.

[Genghis Pwn]

Originally posted by davefoc
Genghis, what the hell are you talking about? Do you think the moderate Arabs should wait for the Americans to renounce the literal Bible. All that stuff about how God helped the Jews massacre the people in Jecricho because they happened to be on some land that God said blonged to the Jews.

Have you noticed the Bible is laced with violence, most of it pretty unjustified by todays standards? Do you think that biblical violence is cool, but the Koran's violence is bad? Do you think it is possible that most Muslims don't have a clue as to what's in the Koran sort of like there's lots of Christians going around wearing makeup, eating shellfish, and not taking their mold to be blessed by the priest that don't have a clue that all that stuff is proscribed by the bible?

Trust me, 99% of Americans have rejected the literal bible. Muslims have NOT rejected the literal Koran. Check out how many follow the Sharia Islamic laws literally! Try talking to a few Muslims, or do some research, and you will find out. Have you seen the millions of bin Laden supporters around the world?? You don't see American Christians flying 767s into skyscrapers in Riyad.

edited to include manfred's point:

And you don't see millions of Xtians rallying worldwide in support of the 1% of nuts who bomb abortion clinics.

[Dancing David]

yeah salad bars are a great place to get food poisoning.

There can't be moderate -insert classification here- because then they won't conform to my political theories.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn
Once they renounce the literal Koran itself, I might be hopeful.
No, no, Ghenghis is right. As long as people believe in stupid old fairy tales, there will be violence. I mean, just look at the USA. Doctors get shot, medical clinics get bombed, federal buldings get bombed, people get beaten to death, all because people believe in some stupid old book.

Until the USA renounces the literal Bible, it can never be truly free or safe.

Of course, some people would argue that the entire point of Christianity is to renounce the literal Bible in favor of the interpreted Bible. Some people might even go so far as to say that the Muslims might do the same thing.

But the fundies are essentially right: either you take the Bible literally or you don't take it at all. Which is why Bush is trying to make the Constitution an appendix of the Bible. So we can get back to all that religiously inspired violence that has been on haitus for the last 100 years.

This explains much: it explains why the fundies insist that the Quran be taken literally, because they want the Bible to be taken literally. And it explains why they get so bent out of shape when you take the Bible literally, because they know it preaches more violence and hatred than the Quran. How they reconcile the two notions is an act of intellectual slieght-of-hand that would make Randi jealous. It's much the same way Genghis can go on thinking he isn't a racist when says things like, "some races are more attractive than others."

Ghengis, do you acknowledge that:
1. The Bible is worse than the Quran (nowhere in the Quran does it tell you to kill everything that breathes or to kill people after they have converted.)
2. The Western world is not more peaceful than the Middle East because of Christianity, but rather in spite of Christianity.
3. Isolated quotes taken literally are no more illustrative of Islam than they are of Christianity.
4. You are a simple-minded, hate-filled, biggoted 'tard.

[Yahzi]

Trust me, 99% of Americans have rejected the literal bible.
I love this one. Apparently, Christianity is a morally superior religion to Islam because it rejects the foundation of its religion. Yet at no point does this argument ever veer into the dangerous territory of suggesting that maybe, just maybe, it's religion that is the problem in the first place.

:rolleyes:

My gun is safer than your gun, because it has crappy bullets! What do you mean, guns are dangerous? Are you some kind of nut-job?

:rolleyes:

[Genghis Pwn]

Originally posted by Yahzi

I love this one. Apparently, Christianity is a morally superior religion to Islam because it rejects the foundation of its religion. Yet at no point does this argument ever veer into the dangerous territory of suggesting that maybe, just maybe, it's religion that is the problem in the first place.

:rolleyes:

My gun is safer than your gun, because it has crappy bullets! What do you mean, guns are dangerous? Are you some kind of nut-job?

:rolleyes:

Exactly!!!! You nailed it. Islam and Christianity are only valuable to the extent that they don't even literally believe their own ideas!

I am an athiest. I hate all literal religions because I think they are incredibly dangerous. Right now, based on the way the world is, I, like many thinking people, believe that Islam is the most clear and immediate danger in terms of religions that are being taken too literally in terms of the violence they preach.

[Number Six]

I think that religion is quite silly and yet at the same time I feel I have to root for the "moderate" Muslims and Christians, etc, because they are the best hoping for reigning in the extremists. Extremists sure as hell are never going to listen to non-believers. And in fact, non-believers calling extremists nuts might even lead to moderates becoming more extreme because the moderates feel compelled to defend their religion.

Part of me wants to point out to moderate religious believers that religious belief is silly and worth abandoning but another part of me wants to leave them be because they're a more effective counterweight to extremists than are non-believers.

[Rat]

Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen
Everyone should treat the bible like a salad bar. Take what you want, and leave the rest.
Isn't that the problem? Everything in the bible is contradicted at some other point in the bible, so anyone who uses the bible as a basis for anything is indeed picking and choosing.

[Baker]

Despite the fact that we have gone over almost every aspect of this argument mainly these threads.
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19807
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19777
I have to disagree link at this survey from most of the Muslim world.


As for the crisis in the Middle East, in a wave of sentiment that bodes ill
for the future of the U.S.-sponsored "road map" to peace, Muslims lined up
strongly behind the opinion that "the rights and needs of the Palestinian
people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists."
.
The conviction that no way can be found for Israel and the Palestinians to
coexist is strongest in Morocco (90 percent), followed by Jordan (85
percent), the Palestinian Authority (80 percent), Kuwait (72 percent),
Lebanon (65 percent), Indonesia (58 percent) and Pakistan (57 percent).

Perhaps as a consequence, bin Laden was one of the three "leaders" most
trusted by the nine Muslim populations surveyed, outranking even the UN
secretary-general, Kofi Annan. The Qaeda leader's confidence rating was
matched only by Yasser Arafat, leader of the Palestine Liberation
Organization, and Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
http://www.iht.com/articles/98399.html

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Genghis Pwn


Exactly!!!! You nailed it. Islam and Christianity are only valuable to the extent that they don't even literally believe their own ideas!

I am an athiest. I hate all literal religions because I think they are incredibly dangerous. Right now, based on the way the world is, I, like many thinking people, believe that Islam is the most clear and immediate danger in terms of religions that are being taken too literally in terms of the violence they preach.

Look at it another way. In the first half of the twentieth century impoverished disaffected people were seduced by militant communism and fascism. As a result the democratic world faced a huge military threat and was damn near destroyed.

By comparison all militant fundamentalist Islam can produce is a handful of suicidal idiots, albeit with some popular support. In Iran there is already an increasingly widespread lack of sympathy for the theocrats.

So, as threats go, gimme that old time religion anytime! I think that the conviction that Islam poses in your words a "clear and immediate danger" is far more likely to lead to policy responses which inflame the situation.

A useful first step towards improving the situation would be to make serious efforts to engage with Iran, e.g. by ceasing to impede their efforts to buy a new fleet of civil airliners.

[rwguinn]

Originally posted by Yahzi


...... Which is why Bush is trying to make the Constitution an appendix of the Bible. So we can get back to all that religiously inspired violence that has been on haitus for the last 100 years.



Evidence/sources for the stupid statement of the century, please?

[Ignatius]

Originally posted by rwguinn


Evidence/sources for the stupid statement of the century, please?

They are called "newspapers". Pick one up sometime.

[rwguinn]

Originally posted by Ignatius


They are called "newspapers". Pick one up sometime.
Sorry-I guess i never learned to read, since I have fouind absolutely NO ****** newspaper article in the country which has ever said anything about Mr. Bush "trying to make the Constitution an appendix of the Bible ", nor has any responsible individual stated this premise where I can find it.
And Ignatius doesn't sound or read a whole lot like Yahzi.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I can't post it for a few days, but I have a link on my company e-mail for a story from NPR that lists the NEW axis of evil - Israel, the US and Iran!!!

I never, never, never thought I'd see those three countries linked as an "axis" of any kind, but apparently the Sunni of Saudi Arabia see "us" three as being in kahootz.

I'll post the link Monday night if this thread is still floating.

[Ignatius]

Originally posted by rwguinn

Sorry-I guess i never learned to read, since I have fouind absolutely NO ****** newspaper article in the country which has ever said anything about Mr. Bush "trying to make the Constitution an appendix of the Bible ", nor has any responsible individual stated this premise where I can find it.
And Ignatius doesn't sound or read a whole lot like Yahzi.

Are you seriously that stupid? Did you not recognize what Yahzi was saying as hyperbole? Of course he didn't literally mean that Bush wants to add an appendix to the Bible. I can't even believe that you would be so f&cking dense that I would have to bother explaining this.

If you have not noticed this administrations attempts to erode the separation of church and state, you simply haven't been paying attention and nothing I can say is going to get through your thick skull. The media coverage on issues such as government funding for faith-based institutions, the national day of prayer, school vouchers for religious schools and many others has been ubiquitous. Perhaps you just wanted him to provide a bunch of articles about these things so that you could then start arguing that they are "good" things, not that they haven't been happening?

BTW, I haven't seen any of your posts before this. Welcome to the forum.

[Baker]

Can Yahzi or davefoc answer my question how many of the majority of Muslims that support bin laden are Moderate Muslims?
The poll showed most of them support Bin laden.

[ManfredVonRichthoffen]

Islam appologists eh?

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1004/1004_01.asp

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

{Manfred sets those down on the table and leaves the thread feeling quite smug that he's ensured himself a place in heaven by bothering other people.}

[rwguinn]

Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen
Islam appologists eh?

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1004/1004_01.asp

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

{Manfred sets those down on the table and leaves the thread feeling quite smug that he's ensured himself a place in heaven by bothering other people.}
Your smugness is quit justified. That first link was all I could handle so shortly after dinner.....
U-o-ME A KEYBOARD!:D
RW

[davefoc]

Can Yahzi or davefoc answer my question how many of the majority of Muslims that support bin laden are Moderate Muslims?


Hi Baker, I'm just getting around to rereading this thread. I wasn't ignoring your post.

It seems like there are two issues in discussion here.
1. Is Islam fundamentally different that Christianity with regards to violence?
2. Is the widespread anti-Israel feelings in the middle east related to violent Islamic fundamentalism?

The first question was well discussed in the thread you linked. I think the consensus of that thread was:
In the past Christianity has been the driver for more violence than Islam, but the rise of secularism in the west has toned down some of the excesses of Christianity. A similar process has not mitigated the violent elements of Islam to the same degree.

Whether that was the consensus or not, the above seems reasonable to me, although I am not sure that two Iranian acquaintances of mine would agree.

I asked them whether they felt that Muslims were more likely to be religious fanatics or fundamentalists than Christians. There view was definitely not. Even though, Iran is obviously a theocracy, it was their view that non-fundamentalist even secular beliefs were as common in Iran as in the US.

On the second question, my admittedly uninformed opinion, is that religion is not the most important reason for the anti-Israeli feelings in the Middle East. I would think these are more important:

1. Israel was founded largely by an immigrating population to an area that the Arabs believed was theirs. Large immigrations cause disruption and conflict wherever they occur. Both sides in these kinds of situations will be able to cite atrocities and injustices perpetrated by the other side.

2. The Jewish immigration has been exploited and propagandized by Arab leaders as a means of covering up problems in their own countries. People have been living with anti-Israel propaganda for generations now.

3. Israel has won several wars against surrounding Arab states. This is not going to make Arabs happy about Israel.

I hope I have responded to your question with my post. What I was trying to say with the above is that my feeling is that violence in the Islamic world may be more the result of the situation than the result of violence inherent in the practice of Islam. So there might be lots of moderate Muslims in the sense that they are not being driven by their religion to adopt violence, but the same people mgiht not be moderate Arabs in the sense that they opt for violent solutions for secular reasons.

[RCNelson]

Originally posted by davefoc
. . . .
2. Is the widespread anti-Israel feelings in the middle east related to violent Islamic fundamentalism?
. . . .
On the second question, my admittedly uninformed opinion, is that religion is not the most important reason for the anti-Israeli feelings in the Middle East.
. . . .
Here are some writings from the Koran (i.e. word of God) and Hadith (i.e. history of Allah's Apostle Mohammed) to demonstrate that the Holy Koran is not motivating Muslims to be intolerant of others. After all, only a complete neo Nazi totally lacking in political correctness could associate these writings with intolerance.

From the Koran (i.e. word of God):
005.051
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

009.005
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.028
O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
009.029
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
009.030
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!


From the Hadith (i.e. history of Allah's Apostle Mohammed):
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 428:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "May Allah's curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets."

Volume 3, Book 39, Number 531:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Umar expelled the Jews and the Christians from Hijaz. When Allah's Apostle had conquered Khaibar, he wanted to expel the Jews from it as its land became the property of Allah, His Apostle, and the Muslims. Allah's Apostle intended to expel the Jews but they requested him to let them stay there on the condition that they would do the labor and get half of the fruits. Allah's Apostle told them, "We will let you stay on thus condition, as long as we wish."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 392:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (of fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"


In the credit-where-credit's-due department, references to Koran come from HERE (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/), and references to Hadith come from HERE (http://main.faithfreedom.org/Articles/peacefulreligion.htm).

[Yahzi]

Baker
Can Yahzi or davefoc answer my question how many of the majority of Muslims that support bin laden are Moderate Muslims.
I have, numerous times, explained why the Islamic world is necessarily at war with the West. I am no friend of Islam. I hate and despise Islam. Why do you people keep asking me these kinds of questions?

The issue is not whether Islam is dangerous. That was never the question. That fact was conceeded at the outset by everyone.

What part of this do you not understand? ISLAM IS A DANGEROUS BELIEF SYSTEM THAT INSTRUCTS ITS FOLLOWERS TO KILL ALL OPPOSITION. How many times do I have to say that before you get it?

No one ever disputed that. Why are you people so stupid you cannot grasp this basic fact? Why do you keep arguing this point which no disputes?

Please stop reading this thread now, and come back when you have finally grasped the concept that majority of the people on this board despise and fear Islam.





Got it? No really, have you got it? Try again.




Ok. Now the next sentence is... Christianity is exactly the same. And we feel exactly the same way about Christianity. Christianity preaches hate and intolerance, Christianity preaches that you should kill the unbeliever, Christianity promotes violence and warfare to spread the faith.

Modern Christianity, constrained by the shackles of secular governments and ideals, does not practice this: but the word of God has not changed, and the history of Christianity shows that pervious generations understood those words exactly as they are written.

How does showing that Islam is violent in any way address the argument that Christianity is equally violent?

[Yahzi]

Rc Nelson
I can see you haven't bothered to actually read any of the posts in this thread, but have simply stuck your prosetlyzing in.

Here's a little homework for you: show me where the Quran orders its followers to "kill everything that breathes." Or show me where it lauds the cleverness of a man who first convinces his enemys to convert, and then kills them while they are helpless.

Given that our resident idiots are defending Christianity because Christians don't believe the Bible, it seems singularly pointless to quote the Quran until we first establish whether or not Muslims believe the Quran.

[Yahzi]

rwguinn
And Ignatius doesn't sound or read a whole lot like Yahzi.
Actually, he sounds exactly like me, except he only called you f*cking dense once.

[davefoc]

Yahzi said:
Given that our resident idiots are defending Christianity because Christians don't believe the Bible, it seems singularly pointless to quote the Quran until we first establish whether or not Muslims believe the Quran.

Yup, as a resident idiot, that pretty much somes up my view.

[RCNelson]

Originally posted by Yahzi
Here's a little homework for you: show me where the Quran orders its followers to "kill everything that breathes."The phrase "kill everything that breathes" comes from the old testament (not the Koran) demonstrating that the Christians and Jews are also capable of extreme intolerance. This does not make Islam any less dangerous - it just means the danger is not exclusively Islamic.

Or show me where it lauds the cleverness of a man who first convinces his enemys to convert, and then kills them while they are helpless.Sorry - I don't know what you mean here.

Given that our resident idiots are defending Christianity because Christians don't believe the Bible, . . . .Just as the best Christians are the ones who blatantly reject the bad parts of the Bible, the best Muslims similarly reject the bad parts of the Koran. These Muslims (X-Muslims) have a forum HERE (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/). You can talk to them if you want.

. . . . it seems singularly pointless to quote the Quran until we first establish whether or not Muslims believe the Quran. You can establish whether or not Muslims believe the Koran by simply asking them at THIS FORUM (http://islam4u.cjb.net) and at THIS OTHER FORUM (http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org/).

[Yahzi]

RCNelson
The phrase "kill everything that breathes" comes from the old testament (not the Koran)
The fact that you needed to clear that up demonstrates that not only have you not read most of the posts in this thread, you haven't understood the ones you did read.

demonstrating that the Christians and Jews are also capable of extreme intolerance. This does not make Islam any less dangerous - it just means the danger is not exclusively Islamic.
Oh now that's a good idea - rebut my points by repeating them exactly, as if they were your points. Yo, dim bulb: THAT IS MY POINT.

Sorry - I don't know what you mean here.
(sigh)

I am so deeply, deeply tired of quoting the Bible to defenders of Christianity. In fact, I am so tired I am not going to do it. Do your own research. Read the book yourself.

Just as the best Christians are the ones who blatantly reject the bad parts of the Bible, the best Muslims similarly reject the bad parts of the Koran.
This comment defies comprehension. Apparently the definition of "best" is something I am unfamiliar with.

You can establish whether or not Muslims believe the Koran by simply asking them
You could establish whether or not Christians believe in the Bible by simply asking them; but as that wouldn't give the answer Baker wants, I suspect he won't bother.


Davefoc
Yup, as a resident idiot, that pretty much somes up my view.
I won't argue with your self-categorization. But if you think that the definition of a good Christian is one who rejects Christianity, I think you may have made a good assignation.

[RCNelson]

Originally posted by Yahzi
I am so deeply, deeply tired of quoting the Bible to defenders of Christianity.When have I ever been a defender of Christianity ??? I think you are projecting your own preconceptions onto me, and then responding to your own preconceptions.

[davefoc]

I won't argue with your self-categorization

Thanks Yahzi, I'd hate to have to argue that point. And also for not pointing out my strange spelling of sums.

Actually, on the issue of Christians rejecting Christianity, I think I would have said that contemporary Christian thinking disregards what is a major theme of the old testament. That being that Jews have their own God and that pretty much anything goes with regard to atrocities against non-Jews and Jews who aren't sufficiently devout as long as one is sufficiently devout and is Jewish. Of course there are some restricitions on what the believer can do with his slaves, so the old testament is not completely without mercy for the non-Jews.

So my point, all a long, which you seemed to have correctly devined, is that inferring that Muslims are inherently racist and violent based on the Koran is not necessarily a correct inference given that the overt racism and violence of the old testament does not make Christians inherently racist or violent.