How'd She Get Out of the Car?

[slingblade]

MSNBC video (http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?g=7820DC3F-548A-4B7A-B2F4-4872401A97D2&f=00&fg=email) of a woman trapped in her car as it sinks in a river, and her "miraculous" rescue through apparently closed windows. However, later it is mentioned that the window was down about 7 inches, but they say that is still too small a space for her to get through.

My parsimonious explanation is that the window was down more than 7 inches, and estimates are just in error. What do you think?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Anyone got a link to the video in another format for us Firefox users who don't want to open W-Explorer?

[Tamazon]

The only thing I can think of is what was mentioned in the news report. That the lady somehow managed to get the door open.

When you're in a blind state of panic like that, I imagine instincts take over, you run on adrenaline and can't remember much after the fact.

[Alareth]

Sylvia Browne (http://stopsylviabrowne.com) would say that she wrote the escape on her chart (http://stopsylviabrowne.com) before she was born. In doing so she must have become a 7" tube (http://stopsylviabrowne.com) and easily fit through the gap.

[Apathia]

Sylvia Browne (http://stopsylviabrowne.com) would say that she wrote the escape on her chart (http://stopsylviabrowne.com) before she was born. In doing so she must have become a 7" tube (http://stopsylviabrowne.com) and easily fit through the gap.

No! Get with the New Age!. It was quantum tunneling!:dig:

[Rasmus]

She opened the door, struggled out of the car, and kicking herself away from the vehicle she closed the door again.

[Big Les]

Could this be something to do with the electric window system? A short? Or perhaps someone's just talking bollocks.

[Azrael 5]

Isn't there a physics explanation that states car has to be submerged fully with windows closed before they can be opened to escape? Something to do with pressure applied?
Just wondering if window was already open would it still be same law?

(Or am I talking bollox? :) )

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Isn't there a physics explanation that states car has to be submerged fully with windows closed before they can be opened to escape? Something to do with pressure applied?
Just wondering if window was already open would it still be same law?

If the windows can be rolled down (and I suppose that, if they are electric, this may not be possible after a crash into water) it might be possible to do so. Although the water pressure (if the water is covering much of the window) may make it bind and difficult to do. If water is covering much of the door and with air inside the car, the pressure will make it impossible to open the door. Thus the advice given to try to open the door when the car is almost full of water. This is often seen on TV and in the movies (for once Hollywood get something right).

Given a lack of underwater cameras in this case, who knows what happened. Any number of senarios are possible -- including the ones given so far.

(Or am I talking bollox? :) )

Probably. But this is the Internet -- you are supposed to talk bollox!

Gord

---
50th post -- free at last dear Lord, free at last.

[tkingdoll]

Isn't there a physics explanation that states car has to be submerged fully with windows closed before they can be opened to escape? Something to do with pressure applied?
Just wondering if window was already open would it still be same law?

(Or am I talking bollox? :) )

I would say that the pressure inside the car would have to be equal to that outside the car - in other words, the car would need to be full of water before you could open the door. So the window would need to be open to allow the water in so she could open the door.

At least, that's what the movies would have me believe, anyway :D

A more likely explanation, as per the OP, is that a mistake has been made somewhere. It's not such a good news story otherwise, so maybe 'mistake' is a bit generous.

[rjh01]

I think that seven inches is plenty of room for a person to crawl though a car window. No mystery at all. My head is only 5.5 inches from the back of my head to the top of my nose.

[Gr8wight]

Isn't there a physics explanation that states car has to be submerged fully with windows closed before they can be opened to escape? Something to do with pressure applied?
Just wondering if window was already open would it still be same law?

(Or am I talking bollox? :) )

I recently saw a television show in which they were testing this theory. A full grown man, with an emergency air supply, was unable to open the car door either before, or after the car filled with water. This myth is not true.

[L7Cz]

I recently saw a television show in which they were testing this theory. A full grown man, with an emergency air supply, was unable to open the car door either before, or after the car filled with water. This myth is not true.
References?

Water pressure (http://www.mrhall.org/science/waterpressurecalc/waterpressurecalc.htm) at 10 feet (not too deep, but likely to be over the roof of the car) is about 19 pounds per square inch. If the car door is 42 inches high by 28 inches wide (admittedly a rough guesstimate), then there is approximately 19 x 42 x 28 = 22344 pounds (that's eleven tons, plus) of pressure against it. A grown man (or woman) is unlikely to be able to move the door against 11 tons, but if the car is mostly full of water (significantly reducing the pressure differential across the door), and if a window or two is slightly open (to allow water to move through as the door moves), it is possible to open the door underwater.

Someone with more fluency in physics may be able to calculate the exact numbers, and take into account the pressure differentials from the top to the bottom of the door and inside/outside the car, and state how small the interior air bubble has to be to allow egress.

[patchbunny]

I recently saw a television show in which they were testing this theory. A full grown man, with an emergency air supply, was unable to open the car door either before, or after the car filled with water. This myth is not true.
Seen similar videos from some "This can happen to YOU!!!"-type TV shows. They showed a survival video from the Netherlands(?) on how to get out of your car is it goes in a canal. Water in the car rises, equalizing pressure, and you open the door. They had no difficulty in getting out.

Perhaps they forgot to unlock the door? :)

[rjh01]

One door may be unable to be opened because it is stuck in the mud or something, so you may have to try two doors. Actually I think I would rather go out the window. Just wind a window down before the car goes under water. One window per person.

[Soapy Sam]

Remember to unbuckle your seat belt first.

[Gr8wight]

References?

It was on the show Daily Planet, on the Discovery Channel Canada. Here is a link to the archive page for that show. http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=8/21/2006
Click on the video link for the report titled "underwater escape" to watch the report. It is about six and a half minutes long.

[Pup]

I think that seven inches is plenty of room for a person to crawl though a car window. No mystery at all. My head is only 5.5 inches from the back of my head to the top of my nose.

Unfortunately my computer doesn't want me to see the video, but it seems like the above is the first obvious thing to rule out. Were the narrowest points of her head, ribcage and pelvis actually wider than the opening of the window? And the opening needs to include not only the actual measurement, but the possibility that the window angled outward a bit in its track from the pressure of her squeezing through, and the compression of the rubber weatherstripping at the top--might be another inch or so from those two things as well.

[blutoski]

I recently saw a television show in which they were testing this theory. A full grown man, with an emergency air supply, was unable to open the car door either before, or after the car filled with water. This myth is not true.

I had a look at the video referenced, and my experience leads me to question this interpretation.

(as an aside: Giesbrecht's work is very respected in the lifeguarding community here in Canada)

An obvious question that comes to mind is: what if the door was opened before hitting the water, or before the car was submerged? If you notice, the car stays afloat for quite some time, and the car in question took over a minute for water to reach the door. Giesbrecht intentionally waited for better submersion. In fact: the conclusion was that a quick escape is safest, because you can't survive _waiting_ for equal pressure. There was no conclusion as to whether the equal pressure theory works, because none of the test subjects remained in the car long enough to try.

My experience with this, though, is that if you were lucky enough to get a quick submersion and equalization, it should be relatively easy to open the door. One of the more fun things to do while scuba diving is visit wrecks, some of which are in very good shape, with working doors. There's one a few miles from here on the Sea-to-Sky (Porteau Cove (http://www.britishcolumbia.com/ParksAndTrails/Parks/details/?ID=53)). There's more pressure than you'd expect in air, but they open and close without too much effort.


Anyway: for my money... I'm gambling the window gap was wider than estimated.

[casebro]

I've known ,more than one Nervous Nelly type to carry an 'automatic center punch' in their console. The kind that works by just pushing it against the window, and then internally whacks. They work to shatter tempered glass like in car windows.

I've personally breathed the air in overtrurned rowboats and canoes, just playing as a child. My guess is this is another instance where it's the panic that kills people.

Personally I don't worry about it. My car has manual windows. Not to mention that here in Californa, it's a desert. Not as much shoreline as Oklahoma even.

[slingblade]

Anyone got a link to the video in another format for us Firefox users who don't want to open W-Explorer?

Sorry, I don't. I found the video on MSNBC news, and sometimes I find it hard just to reference their links. They aren't exactly alt-tech friendly, being all Microsnotty as they are. ;)

[fishbait]

The true appeal of this story should be the rescue efforts by the guys which should be applauded.

The media-spun appeal of this story is summed up by the woman reporter:Even if you could explain everything, this is still an unbelievably miraculous story.Huh? Everything is explained and it is still "unbelievable" and "miraculous"?

[Skeptic Ginger]

I've known ,more than one Nervous Nelly type to carry an 'automatic center punch' in their console. The kind that works by just pushing it against the window, and then internally whacks. They work to shatter tempered glass like in car windows.

I've personally breathed the air in overtrurned rowboats and canoes, just playing as a child. My guess is this is another instance where it's the panic that kills people.....I have a window punch tool that also has a seatbelt cutter in my car and I am not a Nervous Nelly type at all. I am a safety conscious type and I evaluate cost benefit when making such decisions instead of risk perception which is not an effective means of determining risk.

The chance of needing the window punch and belt cutter is extremely small (unless you drive an old Pinto :p) but the cost of the punch was a couple bucks. The risk of a fire in my house is pretty small but the cost of a smoke alarm and battery replacement is a pittance. I don't expect to get in a car wreck but putting on a seatbelt is easy.

The risk of death from heart disease is high but eating a healthy diet is a lot of work and hard to do. I take a statin and got a couple dogs that don't let me skip their daily walk instead.

And so it goes, risk assessment, risk avoidance -> make a decision and quit worrying about it. If you use risk perception instead of assessment you might not discover how many people are burned alive trapped in a car crash in the desert. :eye-poppi


Now about (http://www.uscgboating.org/command/co/accumulate.htm) that overturned boat (http://www.uscgboating.org/command/co/protect.htm)...

[casebro]

So far as your risk assesment goes, how many people per year drown in their cars? If you don't know, then what kind of risk assesment did you do?

As far as my boating safety goes, my row boat's engine (Me!) makes more methane gas than Carbon Monoxide.

I do know how many Americans lives could be saved by wearing more lifejackets- about 80. Out of about 2,000,000 american deaths per year. So my odds of drowning in a boating accident are 1 in 25,000- if I don't wear a lifejacket.

Statins will help us all live longer. About 11 days, on average. Search this forum for a thread on it for my risk/benefit assessment.

[MRC_Hans]

The true appeal of this story should be the rescue efforts by the guys which should be applauded.

The media-spun appeal of this story is summed up by the woman reporter:Huh? Everything is explained and it is still "unbelievable" and "miraculous"?Media nonsense.

My take on the story: As several have already mentioned, the most likely explanation is that once the pressure equalized when the car was filled with water, she could open a door and get out. She may not remember due to shock. Kicking off, she might well have pushed it shut (kicking away from the car, she is very likely to use the top of the door). As for electrick locks and windows, the 12V system of a car should not be immidiately disabled by water, especially not "fresh" water, but its function will probably be erratical.

The 22 ton pressure on a door will never happen, since, of course, as long as the car is even partly air-filled, it will float, just as we saw. The total pressure on the outside of the car will not significantly exceed the weight of the car.

Hans

[Azrael 5]

General public lying,mis-remembering,getting facts messed up? Surely not.
;)

[Cuddles]

I had a look at the video referenced, and my experience leads me to question this interpretation.

(as an aside: Giesbrecht's work is very respected in the lifeguarding community here in Canada)

An obvious question that comes to mind is: what if the door was opened before hitting the water, or before the car was submerged? If you notice, the car stays afloat for quite some time, and the car in question took over a minute for water to reach the door. Giesbrecht intentionally waited for better submersion. In fact: the conclusion was that a quick escape is safest, because you can't survive _waiting_ for equal pressure. There was no conclusion as to whether the equal pressure theory works, because none of the test subjects remained in the car long enough to try.

My experience with this, though, is that if you were lucky enough to get a quick submersion and equalization, it should be relatively easy to open the door. One of the more fun things to do while scuba diving is visit wrecks, some of which are in very good shape, with working doors. There's one a few miles from here on the Sea-to-Sky (Porteau Cove (http://www.britishcolumbia.com/ParksAndTrails/Parks/details/?ID=53)). There's more pressure than you'd expect in air, but they open and close without too much effort.


Anyway: for my money... I'm gambling the window gap was wider than estimated.

They tried this on Top Gear as well. They found it very hard to open the door when it was only about 6 inches into the water. When they tried again and waited for the car to sink it was impossible to open the door for over a minute and they had to use breathing apparatus because it took so long. Not exactly a rigorous experiment, but enough to say your definately better off opening the door as fast as possible. Since windows wind down they aren't affected by the pressure, so you're definately better off with manual windows.

Edit : I go caving and it's quite amazing how the human body can fit through tiny gaps. Without experience of this sort of thing someone could easily assume the gap was too small.

[richardm]

References?


A variety of escape strategies were also tried on the Top Gear television programme. Once the car started to sink significantly the presenter was physically unable to open the door until it was effectively too late. The best results were gained by getting out as rapidly as possible after the car hit the water.

Edit: God damn you and your fast typing, Cuddles.

[geoman]

When you're in a blind state of panic like that, I imagine instincts take over, you run on adrenaline and can't remember much after the fact.

For an Offshore Survival course (for going out to oil rigs & stuff) you have to escape from an overturned submerged helicopter in a big swimming pool. I knew what was going to happen, I knew what to do, I knew there was a diver with emergency air supply sitting opposite me, but I still remember nothing from going in the water to reaching the surface again. ("Blind state of panic" MAY have had something to do with this...) So I too am reckoning don't pay too much attention to personal testimony.

[exarch]

I recently saw a television show in which they were testing this theory. A full grown man, with an emergency air supply, was unable to open the car door either before, or after the car filled with water. This myth is not true.

It is, if the car falls into a river and eventually hits the bottom.
If you were to drop the car into the ocean, the pressure would keep rising as it goes deeper. By the time the pressure inside and outside the car are the same, too much time has passed and you've already drowned. And the same thing could happen even if your car was only sinking to the bottom of a river.

[ponderingturtle]

If the windows can be rolled down (and I suppose that, if they are electric, this may not be possible after a crash into water) it might be possible to do so. Although the water pressure (if the water is covering much of the window) may make it bind and difficult to do. If water is covering much of the door and with air inside the car, the pressure will make it impossible to open the door. Thus the advice given to try to open the door when the car is almost full of water. This is often seen on TV and in the movies (for once Hollywood get something right).



That is also a very bad idea to wait that long. You want to get out as fast as possible in that situation, and having seen someone put that idea to the test he have great difficulties getting out when the car submerged. SHe had power initialy she should have rolled down the windows while her wipers where still moving.