Taking a shot at atheism

[jimmygun]

This weekend I had a chance to talk to my neighbour about her religious upbringing. She told me that her parents were atheists and absolutely forbade her to read the bible or ask questions about it or religion. At thirty years old now she professes to missing a part of her life that would have serious impact on her life today.

Well educated and well read, she still has trouble in our mostly Christian environment knowing what authors and songwriters are writing about.

Her children and her business keep her from actively searching out the missed years so sometimes she laments at having no reference point for her leanings.

She asked where would be a good place to start to learn about the bible and religion in particular. Going back to Sunday school where most of us were first taught is out of the question obviously.

Any suggestions?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Here. (http://www.thebricktestament.com/)

[Foster Zygote]

This weekend I had a chance to talk to my neighbour about her religious upbringing. She told me that her parents were atheists and absolutely forbade her to read the bible or ask questions about it or religion. At thirty years old now she professes to missing a part of her life that would have serious impact on her life today.

Well educated and well read, she still has trouble in our mostly Christian environment knowing what authors and songwriters are writing about.

Her children and her business keep her from actively searching out the missed years so sometimes she laments at having no reference point for her leanings.

She asked where would be a good place to start to learn about the bible and religion in particular. Going back to Sunday school where most of us were first taught is out of the question obviously.

Any suggestions?

How sad. My son will be free to ask any questions he likes. And I'll give much better answers than "Because Daddy doesn't believe it". For me personally, my atheism is intimately tied together with freedom of thought and inquiry. For me to forbid my son any knowledge of religion would be like forbidding any knowledge of Gilgamesh or Perseus or the Easter Bunny. As I've said before, I want to teach him how to think not what to think.

Steven

[Foster Zygote]

Here. (http://www.thebricktestament.com/)

Oh... my... Dog! That's one of the funniest pieces of satire I've ever seen.

Steven

[ponderingturtle]

How sad. My son will be free to ask any questions he likes. And I'll give much better answers than "Because Daddy doesn't believe it". For me personally, my atheism is intimately tied together with freedom of thought and inquiry. For me to forbid my son any knowledge of religion would be like forbidding any knowledge of Gilgamesh or Perseus or the Easter Bunny. As I've said before, I want to teach him how to think not what to think.

Steven

There is also the possibility that it was simply not taught instead of forbidden. I have a friend who said much the same thing, but not that it was forbidden, just that it was not taught.

[uruk]

tell your friend not to worry too much. I know more than a few self-professed "religeous" people who never read the bible and never really asked questions concerning thier religeous belief system. they simply took for granted everything that was told to them was true.
Tell her to talk to a minister or priest or better yet, read a good book on the subject. She's not missing out on too much of our western culture any more than a Jehova Witness misses on the cultural phenomenon of birthday parties.

[bluess]

Oh, I don't know about that. A lot of really wonderful writing has Christian thought at the back of it - just because it was part of the author's mindset. Having knowledge of Christianity has enhanced my reading of works written in the 1800's. Having knowledge of Civil War mores enhanced my reading of both Louisa May Alcott and "Gone With the Wind".

[uruk]

My knowledge of judeisim is superficial at best but I still enjoyed "Fiddler on the Roof" none the less.


But point well taken.

[Foster Zygote]

There is also the possibility that it was simply not taught instead of forbidden. I have a friend who said much the same thing, but not that it was forbidden, just that it was not taught.

Jimmygun's post states in the first paragraph:

She told me that her parents were atheists and absolutely forbade her to read the bible or ask questions about it or religion.

Steven

[Marquis de Carabas]

Oh, we're supposed to read posts before we reply to them?

[drkitten]

My knowledge of judeisim is superficial at best but I still enjoyed "Fiddler on the Roof" none the less.

Of course, the difference is that Fiddler was written specifically to be understandable to Gentiles, which is part of why it spent so much time explaining Jewish customs and religion.

Unfortunately, knowledge of Christianity is so deeply embedded into Western English-speaking culture that most people simply use the knowledge without bothering to explain it. For example, what does the phrase "good Samaritan" mean? Who or what is the "prodigal son"? What is meant by "mitochondrial Eve"? What does it mean for a business model to be described as "David vs. Goliath" (and which one is which)? What is "Armageddon," and what does it mean to "ride a pale horse"?

It's the same argument as with Shakespeare -- the concepts are so embedded into society we don't realize how many cliched expressions (and cliched thoughts) come from them. Who are Romeo and Juliet again? Exactly what is the "green-eyed monster" again? What actually is the use of "eye of newt and toe of frog" again? And what is "sharper than a serpent's tooth"?

[ponderingturtle]

Jimmygun's post states in the first paragraph:



Steven

I know, but it does seem somewhat odd, and the actual practice was repeated by enough people that the degree of how much it is forbidden is questionable.

If they where really makeing the kind of effort that that suggests then it would seem to make the child more likely to read it to see what is the big deal.

[bluess]

Hey - we have a new sort of athiest, a fundamental athiest. Just like their religious brethren, they want you to accept a-religiousness without your thinking about it.

[Foster Zygote]

Hey - we have a new sort of athiest, a fundamental athiest. Just like their religious brethren, they want you to accept a-religiousness without your thinking about it.

Let's burn them. =0)

Steven

[uruk]

Of course, the difference is that Fiddler was written specifically to be understandable to Gentiles, which is part of why it spent so much time explaining Jewish customs and religion.

Unfortunately, knowledge of Christianity is so deeply embedded into Western English-speaking culture that most people simply use the knowledge without bothering to explain it. For example, what does the phrase "good Samaritan" mean? Who or what is the "prodigal son"? What is meant by "mitochondrial Eve"? What does it mean for a business model to be described as "David vs. Goliath" (and which one is which)? What is "Armageddon," and what does it mean to "ride a pale horse"?

It's the same argument as with Shakespeare -- the concepts are so embedded into society we don't realize how many cliched expressions (and cliched thoughts) come from them. Who are Romeo and Juliet again? Exactly what is the "green-eyed monster" again? What actually is the use of "eye of newt and toe of frog" again? And what is "sharper than a serpent's tooth"?

It all apart of the tapesisty of mankind. but you don't have to have to have a christian backround to feret out the meaning of christian based euphamisims. You can usually guess by the context. Heck I was raised catholic and even I don't know what it means to "ride a pale horse". And usually the usage eventually looses it historical context as the years pass by. It just gets adopted by common usage. I have jewish friends who use "Christ!" as an exclimation. I've been known to exclaim "Oy vey!" once or twice.

I've agreed that knowing the historcal context does give added depth. But it is not absolutly necessary to enjoy.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

This weekend I had a chance to talk to my neighbour about her religious upbringing. She told me that her parents were atheists and absolutely forbade her to read the bible or ask questions about it or religion. At thirty years old now she professes to missing a part of her life that would have serious impact on her life today.

Well educated and well read, she still has trouble in our mostly Christian environment knowing what authors and songwriters are writing about.

Her children and her business keep her from actively searching out the missed years so sometimes she laments at having no reference point for her leanings.

She asked where would be a good place to start to learn about the bible and religion in particular. Going back to Sunday school where most of us were first taught is out of the question obviously.

Any suggestions?

Suggest she start by getting a book on comparative religion. This should place Christianity into a context for further reading and provide a summary of its beliefs.

[RSLancastr]

My knowledge of judeisim is superficial at bestEvidently so! :D

(It's "Judaism.")

[Foolmewunz]

I'm not sure I get the OP, frankly.
Just what does she need grounding in and to discuss with whom. It sounds like she's now living in a Mennonite commune.
If she's well-read, then she's read Twain, Dickens, Melville, Hawthorne, Hugo, Shaw, et al? How can you NOT understand Christianity if you've steeped yourself in 19th and 20th century writing.

I don't think you need a grounding in The Good Book to understand what writers and lyricists are saying. In fact, if either makes you strain to understand their allusions, then they're not letting their works stand on their own. Deconstructionists should just leave Huck Finn be. I don't need to know that it's an allegory - I need to be allowed to enjoy the book.

As to a great source.... try James Michener's The Source, believe it or not. The "novel" stinks. The comparative religion aspects, though, are pretty good. Drier material.... the sections of Gibbon that deal with the dawning of Christianity. Interesting to see what a historian was writing in his time.

[uruk]

Evidently so! :D

(It's "Judaism.")

SEE!!!!!!

[drkitten]

It all apart of the tapesisty of mankind. but you don't have to have to have a christian backround to feret out the meaning of christian based euphamisims.

You don't have to, but it certainly helps. (That's one of the things that William Bennett was pushing for so hard in his various standards-based education. It doesn't matter whether you believe the stories, as long as you know them. And in a sense, to know the stories is to have a Christian background.)

[mummymonkey]

She could always read a bible.

[I less than three logic]

She could always read a bible.
Something that straight forward could never work. :rolleyes: :)

[ponderingturtle]

Something that straight forward could never work. :rolleyes: :)

But how much christian culture is really in the bible?

[dogjones]

Tell her to buy The Old Testament According to Spike Milligan. It successfully bridges reality and faith. E.G.:


“And God saw the light and it was good; He saw the quarterly bill and it was not good”.

"And God said, let the earth bring forth grass, and the earth brought forth grass and the Rastafarians smoked it”.

“And Noah built an altar for the Lord and gave a burnt offering. But the Lord was angry and said this offering is burnt. So Noah sweareth and doeth it all over again in the microwave”.

“Moses said, “The Lord came from Sinai and He came with ten thousand saints, though a poll showed only three hundred; the rest were workers from Datsun on a day out”.

“And woe there was famine in the land. No matter where you looked it was famine. If you lifted up a chair, there it was, if you looked under a bed there it was”.

[ImaginalDisc]

Oh... my... Dog! That's one of the funniest pieces of satire I've ever seen.

Steven

It's just a perfectly accurate depiction of passages from bible, ommiting nothing.

It's not satire; it takes no effort at all to make the Bible look stupid.

[elliotfc]

I'm not sure I get the OP, frankly.
Just what does she need grounding in and to discuss with whom. It sounds like she's now living in a Mennonite commune.
If she's well-read, then she's read Twain, Dickens, Melville, Hawthorne, Hugo, Shaw, et al? How can you NOT understand Christianity if you've steeped yourself in 19th and 20th century writing.

I've taken two Melville courses, and the students with no background in the Bible *did* have a hard time...*appreciating*...parts of...Billy Budd and Bartleby in particular. IN FACT...Melville, a non-Christian, wrote that he was incredibly indebted to Christianity for his material.

All the writers you mentioned were as well versed in the Bible as the average fundie today.

I don't think you need a grounding in The Good Book to understand what writers and lyricists are saying.

But this is demonstrably untrue if you've ever taken a university lit class. Non-Christians *do in fact* scratch their heads about biblical allusions. Should they *not* do that? This is why when you buy oxford editions, or any literary editions which contain criticism and background information, you'll *always* have bible quotations provided as references.

In fact, if either makes you strain to understand their allusions, then they're not letting their works stand on their own. Deconstructionists should just leave Huck Finn be. I don't need to know that it's an allegory - I need to be allowed to enjoy the book.

You could have gotten that from Twain's preamble to the book. Or maybe you did.

I think many of the great writers in English Lit *ASSUMED* their readers had a firm understanding of the Bible. Perhaps this doesn't apply in the past century. But it was a *given* for most of the history of English Lit. I don't think you're appreciating it. And you're not not applying the idea of deconstruction correctly, at least not in a literary sense.

Take the Wasteland. I agree that it can be appreciated on its own. But you don't appreciate that part of literary appreciation *is* where it leads you, and it can certainly lead you to investiage what is behind the book. Eliot himself provided a few specific authors/books behind the Wasteland.

-Elliot