Scientology and Celebs

[kc440_]

I live near the Scientology Headquarters in Clearwater, FL. You should see the buildings they own. Everytime I pass by, I see high-schoolers, dressed in Navy blue skirts/pants and white blouses/shirts, emerging in a long stream, holding hands. You'd think they were in kindergarten. What if one of them lost their grip and went to the beach instead?

Scientology is a religion created by a Science Fiction writer, L. Ron Hubbard. I think if the Christian public knew that Scientologists don't believe in the sanctity of Jesus Christ and look upon Jesus Christ as a loser, Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Priscilla Presley and Lisa Marie, would forfeit their careers. It's crackpot stuff and it's still in the closet.

No wonder film producers dumped Cruise. There was that nasty segment with Matt Lauer. And he had an encounter with a guy who tossed water in his face, leading to a philosophical dressing down from Cruise.

But, boy, those buildings speak of the religion's wealth. It seems the wealthier you are, the higher you go up the eschelon. They have a polygraph-type contraption which they hook the believers to and ask them questions. The whole thing is crazy.

kc440

[Brainache]

Most of what I know about Scientology comes from that South Park episode.
Is that really what scientologists beleive?
Alien souls trapped on Earth and haunting mankind via mental illness?

[ponderingturtle]

Most of what I know about Scientology comes from that South Park episode.
Is that really what scientologists beleive?
Alien souls trapped on Earth and haunting mankind via mental illness?

Well that is all top secret confedential information restricted to only the highest levels of scientologists, but basicaly yes.

[Brainache]

Well there is no way to parody a religion as funny as that.

[ponderingturtle]

Well there is no way to parody a religion as funny as that.

Well you kind of have to, as they have pressed copy right violation suits for distrubting the word of their savior.

[Freethinker]

Or you could say:

I live near the Catholic Headquarters in Rome, Italy. You should see the buildings they own. Everytime I pass by one of their schools, I see high-schoolers, dressed in Navy blue skirts/pants and white blouses/shirts, emerging in a long stream. You'd think they were in prison.

Christianity is a religion created by a Fiction writers Mathew, Mark, Luke, John etc. I think if the Muslim public knew that Christians do not believe in the sanctity of Muhammed and look upon Muhammed as a loser, Dan Aykroyd, Danny DeVito, Alan Alda and Geneviève Bujold would forfeit their careers. It's crackpot stuff and belongs in the dumpster.

No wonder film producers dumped McCauley Culkin. There was that nasty fallout with his parents. And his marriage broke-up.

But, boy, those buildings speak of the religion's wealth. It seems the wealthier you are, the higher you go up the eschelon. They have a box they put the believers in and ask them questions about their personal lives. The whole thing is crazy.

[ponderingturtle]

Or you could say:

Hey at least the catholic church does not press copy write violation law suits for publishing its beliefs to the public. Though it does keep many internal historic records sealed to historians.

[Beerina]

Well you kind of have to, as they have pressed copy right violation suits for distrubting the word of their savior.

If you get tax exemptions for being a religion, you should be forbidden from copyrighting "holy works". Copyrights are for the purpose of earning a profit, which is not what being a religion or being tax exempt is all about.

[Beerina]

If you get tax exemptions for being a religion, you should be forbidden from copyrighting "holy works". Copyrights are for the purpose of earning a profit, which is not what being a religion...is all about.

Hahaha! You f****** idiot!

[kc440_]

Free thinker -- you're right. And what a great satire you did on my post. Personally, I don't follow any particular religion, but I know the general public does not know how Scientology degrades Jesus Christ. And if they did, these celebrities would bear the brunt of so much hate, fostered by Christianity. Religions are divisive.

kc440

[brettDbass]

Hey kc440,

Are you aware of Operation Clambake (http://www.xenu.net/)?

[Ladewig]

Or you could say: The Roman Catholic Church ...

I think there are important differences. If you want to enter a Catholic seminary, they don't say, "before we can teach you everything we know about scriptures and God, you'll have to pay us a few hundred thousand dollars." The RCC doesn't tell its followers, "if anyone leaves the church, you may never speak with them again." The RCC doesn't tell its followers to stop taking medications because all of psychiatry is crap.

[andyandy]

Hey kc440,

Are you aware of Operation Clambake (http://www.xenu.net/)?


the trouble with clambake is that it itself says some pretty silly things...

The results of applying their crackpot psychotherapy (called "auditing") is to weaken the mind. The mind goes from a rational state to an irrational one as the delusional contents of the subconscious mind are brought to the surface and are assumed to be valid. It also makes a person more susceptible to suggestion since it submerges the critical thinking faculties of the mind into a partial subconscious state. It results in a permanent light hypnotic trance and so from thenceforth that person can be more easily controlled. The person will, to a much greater extent, believe and do whatever they are told. And of course this is used to the full in persuading them to hand over further money and dedicating themselves further to the cult.

[KingMerv00]

Eh, it is no dumber than any other religion.

[brettDbass]

the trouble with clambake is that it itself says some pretty silly things...
Aww, that's a pity.

I'd only ever skimmed over it and used it mainly as a source for CoS documents.

[Darth Rotor]

the trouble with clambake is that it itself says some pretty silly things...
It has some pretty good articles and links to some pretty good stuff. One of my favorites was the unauthorized biography of Hubbard. (Bald Faced Prophet, IIRC)

DR

[Freethinker]

Eh, it is no dumber than any other religion.

That was my point as well.

[KingMerv00]

That was my point as well.

In fact, I would argue that Scientology is slightly smarter. Aliens are possible, nuclear bombs have been built, space travel has been done, and there WAS a disaster 65 million years ago. (Granted, Hubbard said the bombs when off something like 68-70 MYA.)

The important parts of the Bible are way crazier.

[Bikewer]

The Time magazine cover article from a few years ago is still available online:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/time-behar.html

Says pretty much everything you need to know...

[Katana]

This is also an fascinating piece:

Inside Scientology (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/9363363/inside_scientology)

[calebprime]

Free thinker -- you're right. And what a great satire you did on my post. Personally, I don't follow any particular religion, but I know the general public does not know how Scientology degrades Jesus Christ. And if they did, these celebrities would bear the brunt of so much hate, fostered by Christianity. Religions are divisive.

kc440

I think there are important differences. If you want to enter a Catholic seminary, they don't say, "before we can teach you everything we know about scriptures and God, you'll have to pay us a few hundred thousand dollars." The RCC doesn't tell its followers, "if anyone leaves the church, you may never speak with them again." The RCC doesn't tell its followers to stop taking medications because all of psychiatry is crap.

It seems that Scientology is morphing from "cult" to "organized religion". As time goes on, we can expect to see some of the radical beliefs toned down, and see Scientology more and more integrated into the mainstream. There will even be schisms. In fact, in some ways this has already happened: Some ex-members have taken to distributing the "tech" (or drivel) for free in a sort of devout counter-movement to the main organization.

I even imagine some dystopian scenario where Scientology becomes the official religion of the U.S. In the future, the U.S. is thrown into chaos. John Travolta becomes President. Like Constantine with Christianity, he makes Scientology official and mandatory--necessary for unity in these troubled times.

I wish I had the links, but a lot of the higher-level Scientology secret documents that used to cost big bucks are posted on-line. Much to Scientology's chagrin. They are, basically, unbelievably stupid. These are the "OT" --or "operating thetan" documents. One former Scientologist I read somewhere said that he had to keep them in a special briefcase that he could only open in his closet. They were that secret.

One expose of L. Ron I read a long time ago--L.Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman--had testimony from a former high-ranking Scientologist that L. Ron was completely wrecked on strong drugs when he wrote some of this stuff. Even if this isn't true, the stuff reads this way.:jaw-dropp

L. Ron fascinates me on a number of levels. He does seem to have been a classic sociopath or psychopath. (I'm aware that personality theory is pretty shaky.) But somehow, he parlayed the most meager talent into huge success.

Loved the parody, enjoy this thread.

[ponderingturtle]

The Time magazine cover article from a few years ago is still available online:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/time-behar.html

Says pretty much everything you need to know...

The point I found ammusing was sceintologists going after chiropracters to join. Woo attacks Woo.

[bluess]

The point I found ammusing was sceintologists going after chiropracters to join. Woo attacks Woo.

It's sorta like Gidrah versus Rodan. You just don't know who (or woo) to root for.

[TragicMonkey]

Eh, it is no dumber than any other religion.

If it were just another idiotic religion in an already-full pantheon of stupidity, that would be perfectly acceptable. It's the whole organized-crime, murdery, disappeared-people, kidnapping, extortion, and conspiracy aspects that make Scientology particularly awful. If they would just stick to believing silly things, no problem.

[ponderingturtle]

If it were just another idiotic religion in an already-full pantheon of stupidity, that would be perfectly acceptable. It's the whole organized-crime, murdery, disappeared-people, kidnapping, extortion, and conspiracy aspects that make Scientology particularly awful. If they would just stick to believing silly things, no problem.

It also soaks its believers for more than most religions do.

[Freethinker]

If it were just another idiotic religion in an already-full pantheon of stupidity, that would be perfectly acceptable. It's the whole organized-crime, murdery, disappeared-people, kidnapping, extortion, and conspiracy aspects that make Scientology particularly awful. If they would just stick to believing silly things, no problem.

I'm glad the Catholic Church never engaged in anything like raising armies and attacking other people because of their religion or having some type of inquisition where laws were passed that applied only to baptized Catholics who were sometimes executed for disagreeing with the church or anything like that. :rolleyes:

[Freethinker]

It also soaks its believers for more than most religions do.

Nobody said it didn't have its good points.:D

[KingMerv00]

If it were just another idiotic religion in an already-full pantheon of stupidity, that would be perfectly acceptable. It's the whole organized-crime, murdery, disappeared-people, kidnapping, extortion, and conspiracy aspects that make Scientology particularly awful. If they would just stick to believing silly things, no problem.

You are right of course. I just think it is funny that the Scientology doctrine is treated like a punching bag by some people who then go to church to drink the blood of a demigod and sup upon his flesh.

[KingMerv00]

I'm glad the Catholic Church never engaged in anything like raising armies and attacking other people because of their religion or having some type of inquisition where laws were passed that applied only to baptized Catholics who were sometimes executed for disagreeing with the church or anything like that. :rolleyes:

Won't somebody PLEASE think of stoning the children!

[TragicMonkey]

I'm glad the Catholic Church never engaged in anything like raising armies and attacking other people because of their religion or having some type of inquisition where laws were passed that applied only to baptized Catholics who were sometimes executed for disagreeing with the church or anything like that. :rolleyes:

Um, so what? This thread is entitled "Scientology", not "Catholicism".

[TragicMonkey]

You are right of course. I just think it is funny that the Scientology doctrine is treated like a punching bag by some people who then go to church to drink the blood of a demigod and sup upon his flesh.

It's one of life's little ironies.

[Freethinker]

Um, so what? This thread is entitled "Scientology", not "Catholicism".

Only that Scientology is no more bizarre or scary than Catholicism. The Catholic Church has just had about 1950 more years to put a respectable spin on its mythology and rites.

[Temporal Renegade]

I don't make enough money to be a Scientologist...I wouldn't be able to afford the fees to 'move up and gain more enlightenment' in the group.

[Azure]

I wonder what Katie Holmes thinks of it.

[TragicMonkey]

Only that Scientology is no more bizarre or scary than Catholicism. The Catholic Church has just had about 1950 more years to put a respectable spin on its mythology and rites.

Well, I guess that makes the crimes of Scientologists alright, then.

[Dave1001]

Point of curiosity: what stance does scientology take on stem cell research?

On therapeutic cloning?

Christianity probably inadvertantly killed hundreds of millions just from a line in the New Testament saying christians no longer had to ritually wash their hands before eating the way jews did. What a tragedy. Insert a few lines into each of the major religious faiths and quality of life and rate of biomedical progress could be greatly improved, even if most people continue to believe in fairy tales.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

andyandy,

the trouble with clambake is that it itself says some pretty silly things...

Quote:
The results of applying their crackpot psychotherapy (called "auditing") is to weaken the mind. The mind goes from a rational state to an irrational one as the delusional contents of the subconscious mind are brought to the surface and are assumed to be valid. It also makes a person more susceptible to suggestion since it submerges the critical thinking faculties of the mind into a partial subconscious state. It results in a permanent light hypnotic trance and so from thenceforth that person can be more easily controlled. The person will, to a much greater extent, believe and do whatever they are told. And of course this is used to the full in persuading them to hand over further money and dedicating themselves further to the cult.
What is so silly about that? This is exacly what they do. The only problem I can see with the above is the rather sloppy usage of psychological jargon. The fact of the matter is that the auditing process in Scientology is specifically designed to break down a person's ability to distinguish fantasy from reality, to suppress any critical thinking skills they may already have, and to strongly discourage the person from even entertaining any thoughts contrary to church doctrine (self censorship). And in these regards it has been quite successful.

Dr. Stupid

[Freethinker]

Well, I guess that makes the crimes of Scientologists alright, then.

No more or less so than those of Christians, Muslims etc.. All religions are inherently evil and divisive.

[andyandy]

andyandy,


What is so silly about that? This is exacly what they do. The only problem I can see with the above is the rather sloppy usage of psychological jargon. The fact of the matter is that the auditing process in Scientology is specifically designed to break down a person's ability to distinguish fantasy from reality, to suppress any critical thinking skills they may already have, and to strongly discourage the person from even entertaining any thoughts contrary to church doctrine (self censorship). And in these regards it has been quite successful.

Dr. Stupid

it was the sloppy use of psychological jargon which i was refering to....you shouldn't need to use pseudo-science to attack pseudo-religion :)

[brooklyn44]

it was the sloppy use of psychological jargon which i was refering to....you shouldn't need to use pseudo-science to attack pseudo-religion :)
Since all religions are wooish, (except for those who are jooish :blush: ) what the heck is a pseudo-religion. It seems to me that L. Ron's dianetics and scientology have created enough woo and pain to qualify a real, rootin' tootin' religion.

[Tanstaafl]

One expose of L. Ron I read a long time ago--L.Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman--had testimony from a former high-ranking Scientologist that L. Ron was completely wrecked on strong drugs when he wrote some of this stuff. Even if this isn't true, the stuff reads this way.:jaw-dropp

Thanks the the mini-review. Turns out I have this book in my book case and will now bump up its priority and read it soon.

It would take a lot to change my opinion that L. Ron was a sociopath. Not to mention a true a:Dhole.

[kc440_]

Hey kc440,

Are you aware of Operation Clambake (http://www.xenu.net/)?

Thanks for giving me that link. I never saw this one. When I can, I'll read it and tell you what I think.

kc440

[TragicMonkey]

No more or less so than those of Christians, Muslims etc.. All religions are inherently evil and divisive.

They're all equally bad? So, Quakerism is just as bad as the Aztec religion? You know, the one where they cut the hearts out of people? Jim Jones's Peoples Temple was no worse than classical Taoism?

Sloppy thinking. While you're standing there singing "all religions are bad!" some religions are ignoring you, others are praying for you, and some would delight in murdering you. But they're all equally bad, so I guess you don't need to distinguish between them.

[andyandy]

Since all religions are wooish, (except for those who are jooish :blush: ) what the heck is a pseudo-religion. It seems to me that L. Ron's dianetics and scientology have created enough woo and pain to qualify a real, rootin' tootin' religion.

yeah, i was wondering that as i was posting, but i'd regard scientology as a business purporting to be a religion......ie the whole system is set up to generate cash - in a far more cynical way than other religions....ie you have to pay in order to receive your enlightenment....
whereas in islam/christianity etc. whilst you may be expected to donate money (or a percentage), the base faith and teachings are free. I think a good quote was in the article katana posted - where this scientology practise was said to be the equivilent of christians charging $100,000+ before they let you know about Jesus.....

In fact i took another quote from that article as my sig. It's purportedly what L Ron said to a fellow sci-fi writer before launching scientology.....:)

[Freethinker]

They're all equally bad? So, Quakerism is just as bad as the Aztec religion? You know, the one where they cut the hearts out of people? Jim Jones's Peoples Temple was no worse than classical Taoism?
.

Quakers are just a flavor (admittedly a friendly one) of Christianity crossed with Unitarianism to some degree, and Christianity is as bad as any religion. Jim Jones was responsible for fewer than 1000 deaths, and many religions have topped that in one day. The bad thing about religions isn't the death count for the atrocities committed by their followers. The bad thing is the suspension of rational thinking and fostering of "us against them" attitudes that leads to hatred, and the guilt trip inflicted upon followers who can't figure out why they can't manage to avoid the made-up sins that their particular religion chooses to vilify.

[andyandy]

Quakers are just a flavor (admittedly a friendly one) of Christianity crossed with Unitarianism to some degree, and Christianity is as bad as any religion. Jim Jones was responsible for fewer than 1000 deaths, and many religions have topped that in one day. The bad thing about religions isn't the death count for the atrocities committed by their followers. The bad thing is the suspension of rational thinking and fostering of "us against them" attitudes that leads to hatred, and the guilt trip inflicted upon followers who can't figure out why they can't manage to avoid the made-up sins that their particular religion chooses to vilify.


How about a religion who's stance was agnostic on the scientific third person perspective (God as unknown, unknowable, incoherent) and yet, at the same time deist on the subjective first person perspective (God existing in the mind of those who believe in him)? Such a religion would teach that faith alone in such a god on the first person perspective would lead to greater inner contentment, but that this faith itself should not be acted upon externally.
throw in some useful teachings - pain is suffering/do unto others....etc
add a bit of charity work/work with needy/sick/infirm but without any pretext to "convert".....

would such a religion be so bad? No suspension of critical thinking required.....no predujice against others and no exclusivity (co-existance with other religions possible)

The individual benefits, society benefits, everyone's a winner :)

*just to play devil's advocate :) .....

[TragicMonkey]

Quakers are just a flavor (admittedly a friendly one) of Christianity crossed with Unitarianism to some degree, and Christianity is as bad as any religion.

Tarred with the same brush? Judge them not for themselves, but for their relatives?

Jim Jones was responsible for fewer than 1000 deaths, and many religions have topped that in one day.

On the one hand you want to say all religions are equally bad, and then you go and point out that some are worse than others.

The bad thing about religions isn't the death count for the atrocities committed by their followers.

I see. Death counts are irrelevant in determining good or evil. This is the point where you lose credibility in making ethical valuations.

The bad thing is the suspension of rational thinking and fostering of "us against them" attitudes that leads to hatred, and the guilt trip inflicted upon followers who can't figure out why they can't manage to avoid the made-up sins that their particular religion chooses to vilify.

Not all religions require suspension of rational thinking, or "foster us against them attitudes", or involve notions of sin or guilt. You are conflating all religions into one. They aren't all alike. If they were, there wouldn't be so many problems with religion to begin with!

[Freethinker]

Tarred with the same brush? Judge them not for themselves, but for their relatives?

At some point one has to generalize or any analysis would become tedious. To be completely accurate, you would have to compare individual members of all religions. Certainly there is one Quaker who is worse than a particular Aztec, Muslim or Peoples Temple member. I group Christianity together only as a generality. Even discussing all of the individual sects of Christianity would be overwhelming. Granted, I'd rather have a Quaker for a neighbor than a Scientologist. I still believe that religion in general is bad, and that there are no good religions. That doesn't include the implication that there are no good things done by religions or that religious people are bad.



On the one hand you want to say all religions are equally bad, and then you go and point out that some are worse than others.

I see. Death counts are irrelevant in determining good or evil. This is the point where you lose credibility in making ethical valuations.

I was merely pointing out that in the grand scheme your examples weren't really all that big on the death list. If we compared direct homicides, Christianity would probably be the all time Evil Champion. Ethically, one must also compare the torture inflicted by causing members to suffer lifelong guilt because they don't fit the "perfect disciple" mold. Consider a homosexual born in a US conservative Baptist family who struggles his whole life with the conflict between his inner desires and the rigid institutional hatred for what he is exhibited by his church and family. To me, this emotional torment is evil. Comparing it to murder might be a stretch, but not a huge one.



Not all religions require suspension of rational thinking

I maintain that they do. Belief in an unseen, unknown deity whose existence we know of only from vague, ancient texts or the words of "chosen" church leaders doesn't stand up well to rational thought.

[TragicMonkey]

I maintain that they do. Belief in an unseen, unknown deity whose existence we know of only from vague, ancient texts or the words of "chosen" church leaders doesn't stand up well to rational thought.

Not all religions have the characteristics you list above. Taoism has no deity at all. Voodoo and many other Western Hemisphere religions lack texts, vague, ancient, or otherwise. Or churches or leaders or chosen, for that matter.

[ponderingturtle]

At some point one has to generalize or any analysis would become tedious. To be completely accurate, you would have to compare individual members of all religions. Certainly there is one Quaker who is worse than a particular Aztec, Muslim or Peoples Temple member.

But would it be caused by religious beliefs or personal issues? The Aztec's had beleifs that required human sacrifice, the quakers do not. Sure there might be quakers who do bad things, but they can not be in good standing with thier church/meeting while others can be.

[Freethinker]

Not all religions have the characteristics you list above. Taoism has no deity at all. Voodoo and many other Western Hemisphere religions lack texts, vague, ancient, or otherwise. Or churches or leaders or chosen, for that matter.


If Taoism is even a religion, one would have to consider the Tao to have the role of the deity. It is all powerful and present in all things. Taoists consider gods of other religions to simply be personifications of the Tao. Voodoo has priests, both male and female, as well as temples. My last post on the subject, as you seem to just prefer to nitpick for anything you can find, with no real point.

[Dave1001]

How about a religion who's stance was agnostic on the scientific third person perspective (God as unknown, unknowable, incoherent) and yet, at the same time deist on the subjective first person perspective (God existing in the mind of those who believe in him)? Such a religion would teach that faith alone in such a god on the first person perspective would lead to greater inner contentment, but that this faith itself should not be acted upon externally.
throw in some useful teachings - pain is suffering/do unto others....etc
add a bit of charity work/work with needy/sick/infirm but without any pretext to "convert".....

would such a religion be so bad? No suspension of critical thinking required.....no predujice against others and no exclusivity (co-existance with other religions possible)

The individual benefits, society benefits, everyone's a winner :)

*just to play devil's advocate :) .....

andyandy you geniusgenius, you may have just given the first articulation of a completely rational religion. The only thinkg that might need tweaking is this part:

Such a religion would teach that faith alone in such a god on the first person perspective would lead to greater inner contentment,

faith alone would lead to greater inner contentment? I think that's a bit of an overreach. Love how you worded everything else though.

[TragicMonkey]

If Taoism is even a religion, one would have to consider the Tao to have the role of the deity. It is all powerful and present in all things. Taoists consider gods of other religions to simply be personifications of the Tao. Voodoo has priests, both male and female, as well as temples. My last post on the subject, as you seem to just prefer to nitpick for anything you can find, with no real point.

I don't know which I like more, your flat (and incorrect) proclamation about a religion you clearly don't understand, or your announcement that you're right and I'm wrong and you refuse to discuss the matter further. Most convincing arguments.

[andyandy]

andyandy you geniusgenius, you may have just given the first articulation of a completely rational religion. The only thinkg that might need tweaking is this part:



faith alone would lead to greater inner contentment? I think that's a bit of an overreach. Love how you worded everything else though.

Cheers dave, you want to be my first member? I've got a vacancy for a grand prophet if you're interested! :D

Faith leading to greater inner contentment - it's all really an appropriation of Buddhist ideas but with the subjective first person experience redefined in terms of deity......
But if one accepts a position of epistemological internalism* then belief or faith in a subjective first person deity is justified because it is validated within one's conciousness...
and if this personal deity is regarded as a vessel for internal contemplation through meditation and as a vessel for the dissemination of positive ideas through reflection, then one could regard faith as having led to an increased capacity for inner contentment.

part of the religion could also involve the ingestion of psilocybin - to enhance an individual's spiritual experience (similar to the rastafarian use of marahuana).

Using unusually rigorous scientific conditions and measures, Johns Hopkins researchers have shown that the active agent in “sacred mushrooms” can induce mystical/spiritual experiences descriptively identical to spontaneous ones people have reported for centuries.

The resulting experiences apparently prompt positive changes in behavior and attitude that last several months, at least.

In the study, more than 60 percent of subjects described the effects of psilocybin in ways that met criteria for a “full mystical experience” as measured by established psychological scales. One third said the experience was the single most spiritually significant of their lifetimes; and more than two-thirds rated it among their five most meaningful and spiritually significant. Griffiths says subjects liken it to the importance of the birth of their first child or the death of a parent.

Two months later, 79 percent of subjects reported moderately or greatly increased well-being or life satisfaction compared with those given a placebo at the same test session. A majority said their mood, attitudes and behaviors had changed for the better. http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press.../07_11_06.html

of course that would be an optional extra......


*"In contemporary epistemology internalism about justification is the idea that everything necessary to provide justification for a belief is immediately available in consciousness."

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Cheers dave, you want to be my first member? I've got a vacancy for a grand prophet if you're interested! :D

Faith leading to greater inner contentment - it's all really an appropriation of Buddhist ideas but with the subjective first person experience redefined in terms of deity......
But if one accepts a position of epistemological internalism* then belief or faith in a subjective first person deity is justified because it is validated within one's conciousness...
and if this personal deity is regarded as a vessel for internal contemplation through meditation and as a vessel for the dissemination of positive ideas through reflection, then one could regard faith as having led to an increased capacity for inner contentment.

part of the religion could also involve the ingestion of psilocybin - to enhance an individual's spiritual experience (similar to the rastafarian use of marahuana).

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press.../07_11_06.html

of course that would be an optional extra......


*"In contemporary epistemology internalism about justification is the idea that everything necessary to provide justification for a belief is immediately available in consciousness."

Soma, anyone?

[calebprime]

[QUOTE=andyandy;1909662]Cheers dave, you want to be my first member? I've got a vacancy for a grand prophet if you're interested! :D


(Again, problem with link: seems not to be working, so I can't read the article. something about the link being truncated...)
...
"...part of the religion could also involve the ingestion of psilocybin - to enhance an individual's spiritual experience (similar to the rastafarian use of marahuana)."

...

Ah, I see that marihuana & marijuana both make my spell-checker happy.

And--not to appear too knowing about the subject--didn't these experiments more or less duplicate the 60's "experiments" by Leary and crew?
(? Marsh Chapel--) --must look up....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxDZW6n69-0& mode=related&search= - 55k -

It's surprising to me how many substances have been thought to bring on a religious state of mind when, er, subjectively they're so different. Only the psychedelic drugs (peyote, dmt, lsd, 'shrooms etc.) would seem to fit the bill, but William James talks about ether and nitrous oxide....

Anyway. Sign me up. More fun than the dentist, anyway.

[andyandy]

It's surprising to me how many substances have been thought to bring on a religious state of mind when, er, subjectively they're so different. Only the psychedelic drugs (peyote, dmt, lsd, 'shrooms etc.) would seem to fit the bill, but William James talks about ether and nitrous oxide....

Anyway. Sign me up. More fun than the dentist, anyway.

Ok this link should work...

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html

The Marsh Chapel Experiment results seem similar to those at Hopkins Medicine - if a little less controlled......

One might be tempted to speculate that some of the mystic visions told in the OT were brought about by hallucinogens....
Ezekiel's for example.....

welcome to your new religion :D

[andyandy]

Soma, anyone?

The Indo-Iranians were an ancient people who had their homeland somewhere in Central Asia. About 4,000 years ago they split into two distinct groups. One group, the Indo-Aryans, moved south to the Indus Valley; the other became the ancient Iranian peoples. Both preserved a vast body of religious oral literature which was only later written down. These scriptures are the Rig Veda and the Avesta, of the Indians and Iranians respectively. Both works describe rituals in which a plant with hallucinogenic properties was consumed.

Snip

In one of these private rooms were found three ceramic bowls. Analysis of samples found in these vessels by Professor Mayer-Melikyan revealed the traces of both cannabis and Ephedra. Clearly both these psychoactive substances had been used in conjunction in the making of hallucinogenic drinks. In the adjoining room of the same inner sanctum were found ten ceramic pot-stands which appear to have been used in conjunction with strainers designed to separate the juices from the twigs, stems and leaves of the plants. In another room at the other end of the shrine a basin containing remains of a considerable quantity of cannabis was discovered, as well as a number of pottery stands and strainers that have also been associated with making psychoactive beverages.

The excavators believe that, given the considerable size of the fortress, the shrine may well have been dispensing the entheogenic drink to worshippers from all over Margiana in the first half of the second millennium BC. The shrine at the later site of Togoluk 1 (probably dating from the mid-second millennium) seems also to have been used to make hallucinogenic drinks as a similar pottery strainer has been found there, although traces of psychoactive plants have not been detected. The shrine at a third settlement, Togoluk 21, dated to the late second millennium, contained vessels which revealed remains of Ephedra again, but this time in conjunction with the pollen of poppies.
http://www.huxley.net/soma/index.html

hallucinogens certainly played a part in some forms of religions......

i'm going to start a new thread for this....it's somewhat off topic...:)

[Dave1001]

Cheers dave, you want to be my first member? I've got a vacancy for a grand prophet if you're interested! :D

Faith leading to greater inner contentment - it's all really an appropriation of Buddhist ideas but with the subjective first person experience redefined in terms of deity......
But if one accepts a position of epistemological internalism* then belief or faith in a subjective first person deity is justified because it is validated within one's conciousness...
and if this personal deity is regarded as a vessel for internal contemplation through meditation and as a vessel for the dissemination of positive ideas through reflection, then one could regard faith as having led to an increased capacity for inner contentment.

part of the religion could also involve the ingestion of psilocybin - to enhance an individual's spiritual experience (similar to the rastafarian use of marahuana).

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press.../07_11_06.html

of course that would be an optional extra......


*"In contemporary epistemology internalism about justification is the idea that everything necessary to provide justification for a belief is immediately available in consciousness."

I think the "alone" part is still unaccounted for. Faith alone would lead to greater internal contentment?

And sign me up as Grand Prophet. Even if there's no money in it, hierarchy is its own reward. :D