Jew, jew or Jewish?

[The Atheist]

This is one which has been annoying me for some time and the number of Israeli flags around makes me think this will be an interesting place to discuss it and get some feedback. My avatar - and Extreme Atheists' Society logo - contains icons of the three biggest and most influential religions, but there is another highly influential (and around 5th largest) religion which I would like to include, but am finding it difficult to arrange. I want to include a Star of David in the logo/avatar, but the Star itself is part of the Israeli flag, and while I'm no fan of the current Israeli regime, I'm not about to regard the entire country as an enemy just yet and I have absolutely no issue with people of Jewish heritage - my mother's surname was anglicised to "Bloom", so there's plenty of it in my veins. The jewish religion however, is at least as distasteful as christianity, to me.

"Jew" is the only instance of a word which describes both a religious status and an ethnic heritage. Muslims, christians, buddhists, zoroastrans, rastafarians, even scientologists, come in all shapes, colours and ethnicities and as far as I can tell, none of them are interchangeable. Does it matter to anyone with either the heritage or the religion? I know a couple of atheists who are Jewish by heritage who describe themselves as "Jews" in conversation. They feel it's just cultural identification. I ask why then 4th and 5th generation Italians and Greeks don't generally class themselves as "Italian" or "Greek" in the same way and they are unable to answer. I'd be interested in opinions.

I try to differentiate between the likes of Einstein, a Jew by heritage and anyone who's a jew by religion by capitalising the ethnicity but not the religion, but that's only cheating as strict English demands proper noun status for both uses. I continue to cheat anyway, as I do with "christian".

A yamulke or a dismembered foreskin don't readily fit into the artwork and while an outline of a Hasidic Rabbi would work, it is literally a bit exclusive and narrow-focused. Are there other options?

I've posted it in here as I think it's more a political issue than a religious one, no doubt if the mods disagree it will move.

[Meadmaker]

The Star of David is actually a relatively recent symbol for Judaism. A much more religious symbol that is specifically jewish is the menorrah. That one you see at Hanukah has one extra candle in it compared to the plain, every day menorrah.

Another very jewish symbol would be the 10 commandments, on the traditional tablets. If you put the first 10 letters of the Hebrew alphabet, instead of roman numberals I - X, it would be clear that you meant to defame the Jewish religion, instead of the Christian one, but as a bonus you could be offensive to two religions at once.

[a_unique_person]

I can understand your sentiment, but it doesn't really do any good hating religion.

[tkingdoll]

I avoid describing myself as a Jew, I use 'Jewish' instead, because I have has 'Jew' thrown at me as an insult so many times, the word makes me shudder. And when it's accompanies by a thrown chair or a knife, you REALLY start to hate it. It's such a handy short word to spit with venom at someonw who hate who happens to have a different genetic heritage. Of course, I'm sure people use "Jewish person" as an insult too but I've never heard it.

Anyway, I'm Jewish. On occasion I'll use "I'm a Jew" if I'm responding to something racist or offensive where I intend for it to be a revelation.

[brodski]

I want to include a Star of David in the logo/avatar, but the Star itself is part of the Israeli flag, and while I'm no fan of the current Israeli regime, I'm not about to regard the entire country as an enemy just yet.

I doubt that you regard the whole of Pakistan as "an enemy", do you? You use a device from their flag in your symbol, how is this different from using the Star of David?
To be perfectly frank (and speaking as someone who is often accused of being "PC-LIB" or a mythical magical "SLAG FAIRY") I would say that as you are not singling out Judaism, from other major world religion in your avatar, then claims of special offence at using the star of David in your avatar would be hypocritical .

[Mojo]

"I'm not really a Jew; just Jew-ish. Not the whole hog." - Jonathan Miller, Beyond the Fringe

[FireGarden]

I doubt that you regard the whole of Pakistan as "an enemy", do you? You use a device from their flag in your symbol, how is this different from using the Star of David?

You have a point.
The word "Allah", written in Arabic, would be a less political symbol for Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent

Though the crescent was originally a secular symbol of authority for Muslim rulers, it is now often used to symbolize the Islamic faith. However, it should be noted that the crescent was not a symbol used for Islam by Muhammad or any other early Muslim rulers, as the Islamic religion is, in fact, against appointing "Holy Symbols" (so that during the early centuries of Islam, Muslim authorities simply didn't want any geometric symbols to be used to symbolize Islam, in the way that the cross symbolizes Christianity, the menorah was a commonly-occurring symbol of Judaism, etc.). This is why early Islamic coins were covered with Arabic writing, but contained no visual symbols.

Despite this mixed history, many Islamic nations and charities use the crescent symbol on their flags or logos (e.g. Pakistan, The Red Crescent, etc. — though currently none of the Arab states in Arabia or the Mashreq have crescents on their flags). In this manner it could be argued that its modern usage is meant to signify identity and, for devout Muslims, brotherhood.

So crossing out the crescent could be read as anti-Muslim rather than anti-Islam. But it could be read the other way, too.

[Tanstaafl]

The Star of David is actually a relatively recent symbol for Judaism. A much more religious symbol that is specifically jewish is the menorrah.

I also vote for the menorrah. Hones in on the religion only.

[Loss Leader]

As a Jew (or, if your prefer, "person with vague almond color and an education"), I can tell you that you are spot on in your assessment that Judaism encompasses a whole ethnicity in the way dissimilar to almost any other religion. I can also tell you that not capitalizing the J in Jewish would be terribly offensive, as it is a proper noun and I think we've earned it.

Your point about wanting to be offensive to the religion but not the people, then, seems to be difficult to sustain no matter what symbol you use - Jewish star, tablets, menorah, or anything else. We are an entire people and it is not possible to identify the religion without mixing up the concept of the race (or the country).

Let me suggest the following - the religions on your avatar now are all ones that engage in prostilization. The winning of converts is considered part of their religious mission. Judaism has no such call for "witnessing" or whatever. As such, it is much less a threat to an atheist's existence than any of the others. We're also very small. You say we're the 5th largest religion, but that is misleading. All of Christianity, all of Islam, all of Hinduism, Chinese spiritualism and Buddhism massively outweigh us. Heck, there are 300,000 million indigenous pagans left. There are 23 million Sikhs. And there may be as many as 1 billion people who claim no religion at all. Jews account for 14 million people, just 0.22% of the world's population. We're hardly the fifth largest anything.

Here's my suggestion: How about just leaving us out of it entirely. You've got Hindus and Buddhists and Sikhs to get through before you have to deal with us. Considering the anti-Semitic minefield into which you are stepping, our relatively quiet nature and our vanishingly small population, perhaps we shouldn't be in your logo at all.

[brodski]

As a Jew (or, if your prefer, "person with vague almond color and an education"), I can tell you that you are spot on in your assessment that Judaism encompasses a whole ethnicity in the way dissimilar to almost any other religion. I can also tell you that not capitalizing the J in Jewish would be terribly offensive, as it is a proper noun and I think we've earned it.

Your point about wanting to be offensive to the religion but not the people, then, seems to be difficult to sustain no matter what symbol you use - Jewish star, tablets, menorah, or anything else. We are an entire people and it is not possible to identify the religion without mixing up the concept of the race (or the country).

Let me suggest the following - the religions on your avatar now are all ones that engage in prostilization. The winning of converts is considered part of their religious mission. Judaism has no such call for "witnessing" or whatever. As such, it is much less a threat to an atheist's existence than any of the others. We're also very small. You say we're the 5th largest religion, but that is misleading. All of Christianity, all of Islam, all of Hinduism, Chinese spiritualism and Buddhism massively outweigh us. Heck, there are 300,000 million indigenous pagans left. There are 23 million Sikhs. And there may be as many as 1 billion people who claim no religion at all. Jews account for 14 million people, just 0.22% of the world's population. We're hardly the fifth largest anything.

Here's my suggestion: How about just leaving us out of it entirely. You've got Hindus and Buddhists and Sikhs to get through before you have to deal with us. Considering the anti-Semitic minefield into which you are stepping, our relatively quiet nature and our vanishingly small population, perhaps we shouldn't be in your logo at all.

You could make many the same arguments for excluding Sikhism.

[kimiko]

As a Jew (or, if your prefer, "person with vague almond color and an education")???

[andyandy]

As a Jew (or, if your prefer, "person with vague almond color and an education"), I can tell you that you are spot on in your assessment that Judaism encompasses a whole ethnicity in the way dissimilar to almost any other religion. I can also tell you that not capitalizing the J in Jewish would be terribly offensive, as it is a proper noun and I think we've earned it.


Here's my suggestion: How about just leaving us out of it entirely. You've got Hindus and Buddhists and Sikhs to get through before you have to deal with us. Considering the anti-Semitic minefield into which you are stepping, our relatively quiet nature and our vanishingly small population, perhaps we shouldn't be in your logo at all.

Just out of interest LL, can a non-Jew become a Jew? Do you require a certain ethnic heritage? Who decides such things? Why does Judaism not have the same "need to convert" as Christianity and islam?

many thanks :)

[kimiko]

This is one which has been annoying me for some time and the number of Israeli flags around makes me think this will be an interesting place to discuss it and get some feedback. My avatar - and Extreme Atheists' Society logo - contains icons of the three biggest and most influential religions, but there is another highly influential (and around 5th largest) religion which I would like to include, but am finding it difficult to arrange. I want to include a Star of David in the logo/avatar, but the Star itself is part of the Israeli flag, and while I'm no fan of the current Israeli regime, I'm not about to regard the entire country as an enemy just yet and I have absolutely no issue with people of Jewish heritage - my mother's surname was anglicised to "Bloom", so there's plenty of it in my veins. The jewish religion however, is at least as distasteful as christianity, to me.

"Jew" is the only instance of a word which describes both a religious status and an ethnic heritage. Muslims, christians, buddhists, zoroastrans, rastafarians, even scientologists, come in all shapes, colours and ethnicities and as far as I can tell, none of them are interchangeable. Does it matter to anyone with either the heritage or the religion? I know a couple of atheists who are Jewish by heritage who describe themselves as "Jews" in conversation. They feel it's just cultural identification. I ask why then 4th and 5th generation Italians and Greeks don't generally class themselves as "Italian" or "Greek" in the same way and they are unable to answer. I'd be interested in opinions.

I try to differentiate between the likes of Einstein, a Jew by heritage and anyone who's a jew by religion by capitalising the ethnicity but not the religion, but that's only cheating as strict English demands proper noun status for both uses. I continue to cheat anyway, as I do with "christian".

A yamulke or a dismembered foreskin don't readily fit into the artwork and while an outline of a Hasidic Rabbi would work, it is literally a bit exclusive and narrow-focused. Are there other options?

I've posted it in here as I think it's more a political issue than a religious one, no doubt if the mods disagree it will move.As long as the Star of David isn't on the Israeli flag, or the same shade of blue as the blue bits of the Israeli flag, and considering it would be among an assortment of other religious symbols, then I think your intention of it representing the religion should be clear.

Is there any particular reason you chose the crucifix rather than a plain cross? I think it has an 'old' look to it, so a menorah would have the same feel.

Either symbol you choose, the context will communicate "religion".

[Giz]

"Jew" is the only instance of a word which describes both a religious status and an ethnic heritage.

Think you may be forgetting Sikhs - who outnumber jews IIRC.

[Loss Leader]

Just out of interest LL, can a non-Jew become a Jew? Do you require a certain ethnic heritage? Who decides such things? Why does Judaism not have the same "need to convert" as Christianity and islam?

many thanks :)

From what I understand, there is actually a rule that if a person comes to a Rabbi asking to convert, the Rabbi must turn him or her down two times. Only if he comes back a third time should the Rabbi accept the desire to convert as genuine.

Each Jewish sect (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc.) has its own rules on what a person must do to convert consisting usually of lessons with a Rabbi. The worst part is the circumcision. I think I remember that even circumcised men must go through some sort of mock ritual and receive a cut on their shmeckies. I may be wrong about that.

We have no requirements regarding your heritage. Everybody is welcome. We don't really have enough people to discriminate against anyone.

As to why we don't have a mandate to convert others, I really don't know. I'm sure it has to do with us being an ethnicity. It also has something to do with self-respect. I've always felt that a religion that has to go around convincing others of its rightness is a religion with a serious inferiority-complex. In any case, its not part of our way of thinking and I'm glad. I mean, I really would not look forward to ringing people's bells and saying, "Hi. Convert to Judaism, our bible is shorter."

[The Atheist]

Another very jewish symbol would be the 10 commandments, on the traditional tablets. If you put the first 10 letters of the Hebrew alphabet, instead of roman numberals I - X, it would be clear that you meant to defame the Jewish religion, instead of the Christian one, but as a bonus you could be offensive to two religions at once.

(Bolding mine)

I like your style! That is exactly my kind of thinking, I'm on it.

Cheers

I can understand your sentiment, but it doesn't really do any good hating religion.

I'm not so sure. It's a war for the minds of the unwary and it's easier to be constantly on the offensive if you genuinely loathe your opponent, and I do.

I avoid describing myself as a Jew, I use 'Jewish' instead, because I have has 'Jew' thrown at me as an insult so many times, the word makes me shudder.

Precisely what I want to avoid. Any hint of anti-semitism isn't on.

I doubt that you regard the whole of Pakistan as "an enemy", do you? You use a device from their flag in your symbol, how is this different from using the Star of David?

Good point. I'm very familiar with the Pakistan flag & I did consider just that.

Couple of things swayed me: Pakistanis only account for 10%-ish of Muslims and the balance are a wide mix of ethnic groups while the symbol is reasonably universal.

You're right on context though, maybe I'm just being hyper-sensitive about the Star of David.

You have a point. The word "Allah", written in Arabic, would be a less political symbol for Islam. So crossing out the crescent could be read as anti-Muslim rather than anti-Islam. But it could be read the other way, too.

Only problem with that is that I don't believe I have many Arabic-readers amongst my audience and I'm after self-explanatory.

I also vote for the menorrah. Hones in on the religion only.

I'll certainly follow this up, democracy rules!

As a Jew (or, if your prefer, "person with vague almond color and an education"), I can tell you that you are spot on in your assessment that Judaism encompasses a whole ethnicity in the way dissimilar to almost any other religion.
Here's my suggestion: How about just leaving us out of it entirely. You've got Hindus and Buddhists and Sikhs to get through before you have to deal with us. Considering the anti-Semitic minefield into which you are stepping, our relatively quiet nature and our vanishingly small population, perhaps we shouldn't be in your logo at all.

(Bolding mine) I'm very intersted in why you out it like that.

I accept your reasoning, but it's very much because of the "anti-semitic" minefield that I'm looking to make sure I only offend the religious sect.

You're also right on the low number of adherents, but the power they wield is well out of proportion to their numbers, so are worthy of inclusion, in my view.

You could make many the same arguments for excluding Sikhism.

Who will almost certainly get included in the upgraded graphic. I've been a bit
soft on Sikhs because I know so many damn nice ones! No Mercy! Giz also brought them up.

As long as the Star of David isn't on the Israeli flag, or the same shade of blue as the blue bits of the Israeli flag, and considering it would be among an assortment of other religious symbols, then I think your intention of it representing the religion should be clear.

Good point on the colour.

Is there any particular reason you chose the crucifix rather than a plain cross? I think it has an 'old' look to it, so a menorah would have the same feel.
Either symbol you choose, the context will communicate "religion".

I just love the imagery of the poor sucker nailed there, thinking, "Thanks, dad." as the nails went in. The fact that is pisses off catholics above all is an added bonus.

The worst part is the circumcision. I think I remember that even circumcised men must go through some sort of mock ritual and receive a cut on their shmeckies.

You don't get many male converts then?

[Bri]

Wikipedia has a pretty good article on conversion to Judaism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism

-Bri

[Loss Leader]

I'm very intersted in why you out it like that.

Well, it was a joke. The first draft said, "one who controls Hollywood but still boils chicken."

You don't get many male converts then?

Interestingly, my uncle converted from Catholicism to marry my aunt. But, in general, no. We don't get many converts at all. Or as Adam Sandler sang, "Tom Arnold converted to Judaism but you guys can have him back."

[Bri]

I'm very intersted in why you out it like that.

Would you have rather s/he said "person for whom a sale on ham is a dilemma?"

You don't get many male converts then?

Perhaps moreso in countries (like the U.S.) where circumcision shortly after birth is fairly routine. According to some sources, all that would then be required is a prick with a pin (no pun intended).

-Bri

[tkingdoll]

The Atheist,

One of the problems you face is that Judaism is unique because it's two things. A religion, and an ethnicity. Now, ethnic Jews, such as myself (there's an example of where I'd use 'jew' instead of jewish) can't be distinguised from Jews, ethnic or convert, who follow the religion.

So, any use of Jewish symbolism such as a Star of David, can't make the distinction that you mean the religion and not the people. You can be Jewish and not religious, but you can't be Muslim, Christian, etc and not be religious, as those are religions and not ethnic groups.

I don't really see a way around that.

[brodski]

You can be Jewish and not religious, but you can't be Muslim, Christian, etc and not be religious, as those are religions and not ethnic groups.
Unless you are in Ulster, then you definitely can be Catholic or Protestant without being religious.

[Kopji]

You could put a nagging Jewish mother in there.

[Meadmaker]

(Bolding mine)

I like your style! That is exactly my kind of thinking, I'm on it.

Cheers


Always glad to help.

To be honest, though, I was slightly making fun of you. I, like some others, think that deliberately being offensive is an unworthy goal. On the other hand, it's a goal I, myself, engage in in occasion, and if you can't do it in an avatar on a forum, where can you do it? Just do me a favor. Call religion ridiculous if you wish (I do sometimes), but don't blame it for all the ills of the world. Really, people would be useless, murderous, and every other vile thing even if there were no religious leaders to tell them to be that way. Indeed, some religions may actually influence people for the better, at least some of the time.

As for me, I've been self-identifying myself as a Jew more and more lately, but I don't know if I should. I was raised Catholic by my Irish (born and bred there) mother, but rejected that and all religions when I was 21. Many years later, I met a Jewish woman, and had a son with her. She wasn't very Jewish, but with a kid, we started celebrating the holidyas,sometimes going to Temple, and once in a whle doing other Jewish stuff. When we enrolled him in a Jewish school last year, we ended up lighting Shabbat candles every Friday, once in a while doing Havdallah, becoming members at the temple, learning a bit of Hebrew, and being much, much, more Jewish in our activities.

So am I Jewish? I still don't believe in God, but I rather like the Jewish community. I haven't converted, and I don't know if anyone, even a reform rabbi, would convert me, what with the whole God thing, (or should it be G_d thing?) and I don't know if I would want to, anyway. I find some of the Jewish ritual very beneficial, but I don't actually "believe" it. So, I light candles, drink wine, and eat Challah once a week, can spell my name in Hebrew, and am a member of a synagogue. I even go to Torah study once in a while. Does that make me Jewish? I sometimes call myself that, usually as a way of explaining why I'm taking the day off work in September because it's a holiday. I wonder sometimes if real Jews would find my use of the term offensive.

(I was circumcised already, so that wouldn't bother me. Unfortunately, as I said, my wife wasn't very Jewish until some time after our son was born. He wasn't circumcised. He's in a Jewish school. I fear that when they start taking showers in gym class, things might not go so easy for him.)

[Brainache]

If I convert to Judaism, will it make me funnier?

[The Atheist]

One of the problems you face is that Judaism is unique because it's two things. A religion, and an ethnicity. Now, ethnic Jews, such as myself (there's an example of where I'd use 'jew' instead of jewish) can't be distinguised from Jews, ethnic or convert, who follow the religion.

So, any use of Jewish symbolism such as a Star of David, can't make the distinction that you mean the religion and not the people. You can be Jewish and not religious, but you can't be Muslim, Christian, etc and not be religious, as those are religions and not ethnic groups.
I don't really see a way around that.

That's why I'm here! I'm pretty sure Meadmaker's found the solution, though - the ten commandments with Hebrew letters. That can only be construed as attacking the religion and not the people.

[The Atheist]

You could put a nagging Jewish mother in there.

Or maybe a pic of the "Nice Jewish Psychic"

[The Atheist]

Always glad to help.

To be honest, though, I was slightly making fun of you. I, like some others, think that deliberately being offensive is an unworthy goal. On the other hand, it's a goal I, myself, engage in in occasion, and if you can't do it in an avatar on a forum, where can you do it? Just do me a favor. Call religion ridiculous if you wish (I do sometimes), but don't blame it for all the ills of the world. Really, people would be useless, murderous, and every other vile thing even if there were no religious leaders to tell them to be that way. Indeed, some religions may actually influence people for the better, at least some of the time.

I have heard that theory from any number of people and I'm not sure it's true. If prison statistics didn't contain such a large number of avowed christians I may be less sceptical. Also, I'm a forlorn believer that most people are actually quite good at heart and maybe they'd take more care of their surroundings if they didn't have abig daddy god-thing to sort out the mess after they've died.

I certainly don't blame religion for all the ills, just a lot of them!:)

[Kopji]

Or maybe a pic of the "Nice Jewish Psychic"
I'm still getting over that one. yikes. :)

[HeyLeroy]

I'll start off my reply by admitting, yes, I've had a few drinkies.

Sometimes it helps me think and sometimes it hinders my stoopid brain.

In this case, and forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm hoping the incohol will add to my ability to put thoughts together.

And ramble.

I think this is a very valid question as posed in the OP.

Please disregard my blood-lines, because for this thread, I am. AFAIK, My blood is Irish, Scots, Welsh and German. Four-fifths all the others, and a fifth of scotch. I digress. We are all of the same race, in my opinion, and I'm completely confused and saddened by the blatant tribalism occurring on this planet we call home.

If I had my druthers, the world would be beige, and everyone would be tolerant of what everyone else cared to believe.

C'est la.

I know I have an Israeli flag for an avatar, but I wasn't born Jewish, or from descendents AFAIK; it's just a political statement on my part. I support Israel's right to do what they have to do to survive.

so carry on:

(donning SCUBA gear) Here I go:

The Star of David is actually a relatively recent symbol for Judaism. A much more religious symbol that is specifically jewish is the menorrah. That one you see at Hanukah has one extra candle in it compared to the plain, every day menorrah.

Kudos, this is from Exodus, where Moses is instructed how to make the lamp from beaten gold! My drunk; continue:

Another very jewish symbol would be the 10 commandments, on the traditional tablets. If you put the first 10 letters of the Hebrew alphabet, instead of roman numberals I - X, it would be clear that you meant to defame the Jewish religion, instead of the Christian one, but as a bonus you could be offensive to two religions at once.

Two birds, one stone! cool. (Did I mention I'm a bit inebriated? Cheers, carry on, all...)

I can understand your sentiment, but it doesn't really do any good hating religion.

A_U_P, not to nitpick, there doesn't seem to be hatred, only exasperation, which is how I feel about religion. I certainly don't attest to being an authority on anyone's feelings around here, and if there is evidences to the contrayry re: hatred vs. exasperationg, I'll gladly concede the point and admit I'm wrong. Just commenting on the thread. And, I'm a bit fuzzy of head right now.:D

I avoid describing myself as a Jew, I use 'Jewish' instead, because I have has 'Jew' thrown at me as an insult so many times, the word makes me shudder. And when it's accompanies by a thrown chair or a knife, you REALLY start to hate it. It's such a handy short word to spit with venom at someonw who hate who happens to have a different genetic heritage. Of course, I'm sure people use "Jewish person" as an insult too but I've never heard it.

Anyway, I'm Jewish. On occasion I'll use "I'm a Jew" if I'm responding to something racist or offensive where I intend for it to be a revelation.

Teek, I seem to remember you saying you're of the atheism bent, so you're opinion weighs a lot more heavily here, at least to me, than others.

I, personally, would consider you to be the go-to person on this kind of question. Not particularily the authority, but an opinion that would carry a bit more weight. You're jewish, but an atheist, if I remember correctly.

*Let me just add this: I'm an atheist, but if someone was holding a gun to my head, and telling me that I had to choose one of the world's primary religions or some ill would become someone I loved, I'd gladly choose Judaism. It seems the most mature religions, at least among the Abrahamic religions.

Christianity sez we're born bad, and our whole lives are filled with guilt, as we try to get back into God the Holy Psychopath's good graces. And good luck on that. There are too many damn loopholes.

Islam sez, believe what we say or be damned, 'nuff said.

there's a lot in Islam that's peaceful, and I'll definitely dig out my translation of the Quran (itself a blasphemy, 'cuz it ain't supposed to be translated) and bone up un what my 1926 encyclopedia calls "Mohammedanism", but it's still pretty unforgiving.

At least if you're a heretic.

Judaism, on the other hand (IIRC), teaches that people are boern good, and the onus is upon the individual to remain good, and be good to other people.
This seems to me, at least, to be the most mature of the Abrahamic religions.

Like I said, I'm a bit into my cups, but I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong, if need be.

Sorry, like I said, I'm a bit drunkies, and I'm rambling.

I also vote for the menorrah. Hones in on the religion only.

Like as shown in Exodus, this is where God showed Moses how He wanted the menorah made. Pure beaten gold. Too bad for the po'.

As a Jew (or, if your prefer, "person with vague almond color and an education"), I can tell you that you are spot on in your assessment that Judaism encompasses a whole ethnicity in the way dissimilar to almost any other religion. I can also tell you that not capitalizing the J in Jewish would be terribly offensive, as it is a proper noun and I think we've earned it.

Your point about wanting to be offensive to the religion but not the people, then, seems to be difficult to sustain no matter what symbol you use - Jewish star, tablets, menorah, or anything else. We are an entire people and it is not possible to identify the religion without mixing up the concept of the race (or the country).

Let me suggest the following - the religions on your avatar now are all ones that engage in prostilization. The winning of converts is considered part of their religious mission. Judaism has no such call for "witnessing" or whatever. As such, it is much less a threat to an atheist's existence than any of the others. We're also very small. You say we're the 5th largest religion, but that is misleading. All of Christianity, all of Islam, all of Hinduism, Chinese spiritualism and Buddhism massively outweigh us. Heck, there are 300,000 million indigenous pagans left. There are 23 million Sikhs. And there may be as many as 1 billion people who claim no religion at all. Jews account for 14 million people, just 0.22% of the world's population. We're hardly the fifth largest anything.

Here's my suggestion: How about just leaving us out of it entirely. You've got Hindus and Buddhists and Sikhs to get through before you have to deal with us. Considering the anti-Semitic minefield into which you are stepping, our relatively quiet nature and our vanishingly small population, perhaps we shouldn't be in your logo at all.

Loss Leader, if you haven't noticed yet, I'm completely without bigotry, and against it. I can completely understand your wanting to be left out of this, and no-one seems to want to drag you into it on a personal level.

But I agree with The Atheist, that hopefully there can be decided a middle ground: a symbol that reflects Judaism as a religion, and a symbol that represents the Hebrews/Jews as a people.

This may be the biggest conundrum faced here.

As long as the Star of David isn't on the Israeli flag, or the same shade of blue as the blue bits of the Israeli flag, and considering it would be among an assortment of other religious symbols, then I think your intention of it representing the religion should be clear.

Is there any particular reason you chose the crucifix rather than a plain cross? I think it has an 'old' look to it, so a menorah would have the same feel.

Either symbol you choose, the context will communicate "religion".

Good point.

From what I understand, there is actually a rule that if a person comes to a Rabbi asking to convert, the Rabbi must turn him or her down two times. Only if he comes back a third time should the Rabbi accept the desire to convert as genuine.

Each Jewish sect (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, etc.) has its own rules on what a person must do to convert consisting usually of lessons with a Rabbi. The worst part is the circumcision. I think I remember that even circumcised men must go through some sort of mock ritual and receive a cut on their shmeckies. I may be wrong about that.

We have no requirements regarding your heritage. Everybody is welcome. We don't really have enough people to discriminate against anyone.

As to why we don't have a mandate to convert others, I really don't know. I'm sure it has to do with us being an ethnicity. It also has something to do with self-respect. I've always felt that a religion that has to go around convincing others of its rightness is a religion with a serious inferiority-complex. In any case, its not part of our way of thinking and I'm glad. I mean, I really would not look forward to ringing people's bells and saying, "Hi. Convert to Judaism, our bible is shorter."

Ba-Bing. Judaism relies on ethnicity.

But, hey, like I said, if I had a gun to my head and was forced to choose a religion, Judaism would be the one. To each their own, and you make of yourself what you will.

The Atheist,

One of the problems you face is that Judaism is unique because it's two things. A religion, and an ethnicity. Now, ethnic Jews, such as myself (there's an example of where I'd use 'jew' instead of jewish) can't be distinguised from Jews, ethnic or convert, who follow the religion.

So, any use of Jewish symbolism such as a Star of David, can't make the distinction that you mean the religion and not the people. You can be Jewish and not religious, but you can't be Muslim, Christian, etc and not be religious, as those are religions and not ethnic groups.
I don't really see a way around that.

Yup, Teek, I dunno how to resolve this.

Unless you are in Ulster, then you definitely can be Catholic or Protestant without being religious.

Buddy stumbles out of a pub in Ulster one night, not completely saused, but not entirely sober, either.

As he's walking down the lane, he suddenly realizes he's being followed. A split-second later, something hard and cylindrical is jabbed into his ribs.

The voice behind him demands: "Cat'lic or Protestant?""

Buddy stammers, and the voice comes louder: "CAT'LIC OR PROTESTANT?!?"

Knowing a wrong choice could end his life, Buddy replies: "Muslim!"

Triumphantly, the voice holding the gun in Buddy's ribs retorts, "Sure and if I'm not the luckiest Jew in Northern Ireland!"

Anyone who knows me from around this forum will know that that joke is a commentary by me about hatred in general, and is not directed at any ethnic group at all.

Like I said, I'm a bit drunk, and I tend to ramble when I've been into my cups.

Cheers, all. Hope I haven't been completely an ass.


Larry

[WhiteLion]

I've almost always been heavily intrigued by theology/mythology in one way or another...erhm.

Several years ago I found out just how far some religious people would go in their "quest" to discredit the other guys religion, the more colorful "quests" of these were the ones of anti-semitic proportions actually.

I used to be a christian and there was a person in that gathering who prompted be to find out more about Judaism and the Talmud, interestingly I didn't find what he'd found in there, ie differences, I saw much similarities and began to view it from a comparitive perspective on abbrahemic religions overall, subsequently lead me to become an agnostic.

Since the Talmud is so much more dense and elaborated than any other theological work I've ever read, it does take an awful lot of time to read it.

I created a thread on the Talmud at a forum called The Phora, where I argue against the anti-semitic frabrications and deceptive cherry-pickin of the Talmud, which they use in their very diverse diatribes to reach any conclusion that will confirm their disdain.

Now I do not think The Phora is labeled a hate-speech site, it has both opposers to anti-semitism as moderators.

Talmud, on the Phora. (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?p=124707#post124707)
If anyone is interested, I made a lot of posts therein, after the first page it picks up again on page 6 in that thread.

[Bri]

As to why we don't have a mandate to convert others, I really don't know. I'm sure it has to do with us being an ethnicity.

It might be that unlike some other religions, Judaism doesn't believe that one must be Jewish to be "saved." Judaism doesn't hold that everyone else should be Jewish. In fact, I have heard it likened to the body where each religion represents a part of the whole, implying that other religions are necessary for the functioning of humanity.

But perhaps that is an effect of the fact that there is no mandate to convert others rather than a cause.

-Bri

[WhiteLion]

It might be that unlike some other religions, Judaism doesn't believe that one must be Jewish to be "saved." Judaism doesn't hold that everyone else should be Jewish. In fact, I have heard it likened to the body where each religion represents a part of the whole, implying that other religions are necessary for the functioning of humanity.

But perhaps that is an effect of the fact that there is no mandate to convert others rather than a cause.

-Bri

Well you're more right than you think. Actually one of the more famous Rabbis of history, Maimonides, saw that through christianity and Islam the world was everso filled with the commandments of the Torah, these religions weren't to be considered idolatry as they were part of the path of God's commandments.

And no, one doesn't have to be a nohaide follower as so nor convert to be considered worthy of the afterlife, in Judaism.

We find that many of the pious [of the nations] did more than recognize the Creator, and believe in the divine revelation of Torah, and perform acts of kindness to the Jewish people, but also conferred benefit on humanity as a whole.

Among them were [Edward] Jenner who discovered [smallpox] vaccine, thus saving tens of thousands of people from sickness, death and disfigurement; [Sir Francis] Drake who brought the potato to Europe, thus mitigating famine on several occasions; and [Johannes] Gutenberg who invented printing. Some of them were not rewarded in this world at all, like [Johannes] Reuchlin who risked death to prevent the burning of Talmuds . . . and died, heartbroken, in poverty. Is it possible to imagine that these great deeds went unrewarded in the world to come. G-d forbid!

Surely we know that the Holy One, blessed be He, does not withhold the reward of any creature . . . The advantage of the [other] nations over Israel is that they, through their own free choice and efforts made themselves – and this is certainly a greater [human] achievement than Israel, who were led toward perfection by the force of G-d and who therefore cannot claim the credit for what G-d did for them in the merit of their ancestors.

-- Tiferet Yisrael to Avot 3:14.

[Meadmaker]

I have heard that theory from any number of people and I'm not sure it's true. If prison statistics didn't contain such a large number of avowed christians I may be less sceptical. Also, I'm a forlorn believer that most people are actually quite good at heart and maybe they'd take more care of their surroundings if they didn't have abig daddy god-thing to sort out the mess after they've died.

I certainly don't blame religion for all the ills, just a lot of them!:)

Think of it this way. Did God ever tell anyone to kill anyone? Since you don't believe he exists, it's a safe bet your answer is no. So, all those people killed in God's name were killed by people, for reasons invented by people, to suit the needs of those people.

Perhaps I have a dimmer view of human nature, but I suspect that if religion were removed as a motivation, they would find some other excuse.

[Meadmaker]

As a Jew (or, if your prefer, "person with vague almond color and an education"),:)

[andyandy]

Loss Leader As to why we don't have a mandate to convert others, I really don't know. I'm sure it has to do with us being an ethnicity.

maybe it's been worked out that if only 144,000 can get into heaven*, then it's better to keep the competition down :D


Note for the pedant
* I don't know if the Jews have this bit in their holy book(s).....certainly it's in the bible - I don't buy the "well, it symbolises a number so large as to show heaven is open to all..." argument either......:)

[Bri]

maybe it's been worked out that if only 144,000 can get into heaven*, then it's better to keep the competition down :D


Note for the pedant
* I don't know if the Jews have this bit in their holy book(s).....certainly it's in the bible - I don't buy the "well, it symbolises a number so large as to show heaven is open to all..." argument either......:)

Where is this written in the Bible? Is it in the OT or NT?

-Bri

[Loss Leader]

* I don't know if the Jews have this bit in their holy book(s).....certainly it's in the bible - I don't buy the "well, it symbolises a number so large as to show heaven is open to all..." argument either......:)

We have absoluely no concept of heaven or hell and speculation on what happens after one dies is generally discouraged. It is thought that everyone just returns to God.

[Bri]

Not exactly true. See the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven#In_Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Rabbinic_Judaism

Clearly, the Jewish notion of heaven is different from that of Christianity and Islam, and the closest notion of "hell" is quite dissimilar to that of Christianity and Islam.

In Judaism, Gehenna is not hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on their life's deeds. The Kabbalah describes it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked).

I'm still trying to figure out what the 144,000 virgins mentioned in Revelation is all about, but not only is Revelation part of the New Testimate (not the Torah), but it doesn't sound like it has anything to do with the number of people who get into heaven. Reading Revelation 7 and 14, it doesn't seem to indicate that the 144,000 are destined for heaven (nor that others aren't) and in fact in addition to the 144,000 also mentions "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne..."

-Bri

[Meadmaker]

We have absoluely no concept of heaven or hell and speculation on what happens after one dies is generally discouraged. It is thought that everyone just returns to God.

I've had at least three rabbis tell me the Jewish concept of heaven and hell. I've gotten at least five answers.

(FWIW, none seemed to think too much of Hell.)

One of the surprising things to me about Judaism, as I got involved, was how little emphasis there was on heaven, hell, or any afterlife. I can't recall hearing it in a sermon. I ahve only been to one Jewish funeral, but I can't recall any mention of it there, either.

It just isn't the cornerstone of the faith.

[andyandy]

Not exactly true. See the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven#In_Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Rabbinic_Judaism

Clearly, the Jewish notion of heaven is different from that of Christianity and Islam, and the closest notion of "hell" is quite dissimilar to that of Christianity and Islam.



I'm still trying to figure out what the 144,000 virgins mentioned in Revelation is all about, but not only is Revelation part of the New Testimate (not the Torah), but it doesn't sound like it has anything to do with the number of people who get into heaven. Reading Revelation 7 and 14, it doesn't seem to indicate that the 144,000 are destined for heaven (nor that others aren't) and in fact in addition to the 144,000 also mentions "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne..."

-Bri



whilst it is possible to interpret the bible however one sees fit, it seems pretty specific to me.

Rev 7:4-8
4* And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5* From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6* from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7* from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8* from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

Rev. 14
1* ¶ Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.
2* And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.
3* And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
4* These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
5* And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

and as i already posted as a pedant's note - i didn't claim to know if the figure of144,000 was mentioned in the Jewish holy book(s).....:)

[Bri]

The revelations chapters are all about who gets to get into heaven.......and whilst it is possible to interpret the bible however one sees fit, it seems pretty specific to me.

Does "sealed" mean the same thing as "get into heaven?" Also, look at Rev 7:9 (immediately following the passages you quoted):

9. After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

So, it would seem that there are others besides the 144,000 (although the 144,000 does seem to indicate the number from the tribes of Israel). In Rev 14:4, it talks about the 144,000 being male virgins, so that would also seem to preclude Jewish women or married men from getting into heaven if that were the case.

and as i already posted as a pedant's note - i didn't claim to know if the figure of144,000 was mentioned in the Jewish holy book(s).....:)

I couldn't find any evidence of that number mentioned in the Jewish holy books. Even one Christian site that was trying to make the case that the prophecies in Revelation were taken from Jewish texts didn't mention that number being from the Jewish texts (which seem like something they would have been mentioned since it would have supported their claim).

-Bri

[andyandy]

So, it would seem that there are others besides the 144,000 (although the 144,000 does seem to indicate the number from the tribes of Israel). In Rev 14:4, it talks about the 144,000 being male virgins, so that would also seem to preclude Jewish women or married men from getting into heaven if that were the case.

-Bri

you're trying to apply logic to the bible? Maybe heaven is only for male virgins.....Maybe all women/married men will burn in hell....along with all the Jews, Muslims, Sihks, Buddhists, atheists, homosexuals, non-baptised, etc. etc. The list is already quite long - God seems quite choosy.....

Rev 14:3 seems pretty specific to me.....

Revelation 14:3 (ESV)
And they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

The JW have interpreted this as the fact that only 144,000 people will be born again to spend eternity in heaven.

*note to self* no jokes on JREF :rolleyes:

[WhiteLion]

Well the 144,000 isn't in any jewish texts as far as I know, I haven't even seen it discussed in the Talmud nor Kabbalah/Zohar.

[Loss Leader]

and as i already posted as a pedant's note - i didn't claim to know if the figure of144,000 was mentioned in the Jewish holy book(s).....:)

This entire concept appears nowhere in the Jewish bible. And, I'm given to understand, there are very few christian sects that really hold to this 144,000 number either.

[andyandy]

This entire concept appears nowhere in the Jewish bible. And, I'm given to understand, there are very few christian sects that really hold to this 144,000 number either.

hey it's in the bible - it's the word of god :)

[tkingdoll]

The Atheist,

I can confirm that there are several Jewish atheists on this forum, although if you have any specific questions about what it's like to be that particular combination of minorities, please feel free to PM me.

[a_unique_person]

(Bolding mine)



I'm not so sure. It's a war for the minds of the unwary and it's easier to be constantly on the offensive if you genuinely loathe your opponent, and I do.



While it unfortunately doesn't take long to come across individuals it is easy to loathe, as a policy on life it is not a good way to live. It ends up doing you more damage than them.

[Bri]

Rev 14:3 seems pretty specific to me.....

Well, OK, so only 144,000 Jewish male virgins who had been redeemed could learn the song. Obviously, something by the Beastie Boys. I don't see where that implies that no others were redeemed.

The JW have interpreted this as the fact that only 144,000 people will be born again to spend eternity in heaven.

As do others, I'm sure. But it can clearly be interpreted differently (and probably is by most).

-Bri

[qayak]

The JW have interpreted this as the fact that only 144,000 people will be born again to spend eternity in heaven.

They also state that the rest will be borm again to enjoy heaven on Earth.

[hgc]

The Star of David is actually a relatively recent symbol for Judaism. A much more religious symbol that is specifically jewish is the menorrah. That one you see at Hanukah has one extra candle in it compared to the plain, every day menorrah.
Two extra candles.

[andyandy]

They also state that the rest will be borm again to enjoy heaven on Earth.

That must be the two star-version of heaven, me, I'd want the full five-star :)

[Skeptic]

I think it's simpler than that in this case, "The Atheist". Context is everything... yes, jews are a nationality as well as a religion, yes, the star of david is used in israel's flag, but if you add the star of david to the "crossed-out" symbols of ALL THE OTHER RELIGIONS you disagree with in your avatar, the context makes it quite clear that you are using it a a symbol as the religion and not the people.

Crossing out the star of david BY ITSELF, without crossing out any other religious symbol, would have been something else entirely.

I mean, a cross appears on many European nations' flag and the star and crescent in Many Muslim nations' flag, but it probably never occured to anybody here that, in context, you desire to eliminate Norway or Pakistan.

But, come to think of it, why not use a POSITIVE symbol--such as a picture of an atom or DNA or Darwin, or something like that--for atheism, instead of "Not this!"

[Foolmewunz]

This has been a puzzlement to me for a while. I'm of Jewish ethnicity, yet I'm an atheist. I take offense at any sort of racism, but I always recognized that anti-semitism pushed my buttons a little harder and faster than other forms.

It was only when I recognized the separation between the two (ethnicity vs religion) that I was able to justify it, at least to the point that I could accept my own attitudes.

And that's the concern The Atheist was getting to. The ethnic group has as many beliefs as any other group. The relgion, though, is limited to the splits in the faith.

I'm curious what happens in the next few generations. I've noticed a number of posters saying their heritage and/or upbringing was Jewish, but they are now agnostics or atheists. I know many such people in my personal travels, too. Will our second and third generations still refer to themselves as Jewish, as in the way someone named McCarthy whose family has been in the USA for 8 generations still calls him/herself Irish?

Time will tell. I'm a parent, and my daughter (28 y.o.) has not taken to referring to her Jewish blood/heritage. It may hit later....?

Oh, to The Atheist. I recognize your approach, and accept "shock theatre" tactics, but I think you're not going to rankle too many religious Jews by including them. There is so much hair-splitting and questioning going on in Judaism that another atheist query is just so much water off a duck's back, I feel. If you want a larger and more interesting target audience, the Buddhists (who have converted a philosophy into a religion) and even Chinese Taoists and Confucianists ought to be included.

[The Atheist]

I'll start off my reply by admitting, yes, I've had a few drinkies.
We could tell! No, not really, it's a good post, and like Mel Gibbon's drunken tirade, I bet it's honest!

Cheers.
Several years ago I found out just how far some religious people would go in their "quest" to discredit the other guys religion, the more colorful "quests" of these were the ones of anti-semitic proportions actually.Thanks. That anti-semitism again. I believe most anti-semitic feeling is actually directed against Jews culturally rather than religiously, however.
Perhaps I have a dimmer view of human nature, but I suspect that if religion were removed as a motivation, they would find some other excuse.
I gave the literal opposite of that thinking today, saying that I believe good will be done by people from within themselves even if their god is denied. Your converse above accordingly applies, although I feel that the herd mentality of religion is easily led into commission of evil acts. Would the Holocaust have happened without Hitler? Did he order anyone killed personally? Would the Iquisition, the Salem witch-hangings and recent abortionist murders have happened if the seeds weren't sown by religion?

Christians use the bible as a reason to chastise children. Would those parents still exercise that right if the bible prohibited it?

I like to paraphrase the NRA's, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" to, "Guns don't kill people, guns owned by people kill people." In religious terms, it's, "Gods don't kill people. People get gods to tell them to kill people" Having divine guidance in any enterprise is useful, nothing like having a bloke with no complaints department to blame stuff on.
But, come to think of it, why not use a POSITIVE symbol--such as a picture of an atom or DNA or Darwin, or something like that--for atheism, instead of "Not this!"

I see your point, and I've admitted that maybe I'm just being a bit touchy thanks to a life brought up under the history of the Holocaust. Plus, I am in no way a racist and because the Star of David is unique to both the religion and the country, I was little hesitant. Most other atheists like to take that positive road and I like to be different, hence my unusal avatar/logo.

Meadmaker has given me the perfect answer and how to mock 2 for 1, with the tablets of 10 commandments.

Cheers
Oh, to The Atheist. I recognize your approach, and accept "shock theatre" tactics, but I think you're not going to rankle too many religious Jews by including them. There is so much hair-splitting and questioning going on in Judaism that another atheist query is just so much water off a duck's back, I feel. If you want a larger and more interesting target audience, the Buddhists (who have converted a philosophy into a religion) and even Chinese Taoists and Confucianists ought to be included.

Oh yeah, it's not so much that I expect jews (note the religious use, small j) to see my stuff, I just like to be an equal opportunity abuser of religion!

Cheers

[Bri]

There is so much hair-splitting and questioning going on in Judaism that another atheist query is just so much water off a duck's back, I feel.

Much of that questioning and hair-splitting comes from Jews. Judaism encourages open debate unlike some other religions. The Talmud is basically a record of rabbinic discussion and debate concerning Jewish law, ethics, customs, history, etc. Not only isn't it a sin for a Jew to question his or her religion, but blind faith is not considered a virtue in Judaism.

-Bri

[a_unique_person]

I avoid describing myself as a Jew, I use 'Jewish' instead, because I have has 'Jew' thrown at me as an insult so many times, the word makes me shudder. And when it's accompanies by a thrown chair or a knife, you REALLY start to hate it. It's such a handy short word to spit with venom at someonw who hate who happens to have a different genetic heritage. Of course, I'm sure people use "Jewish person" as an insult too but I've never heard it.

Anyway, I'm Jewish. On occasion I'll use "I'm a Jew" if I'm responding to something racist or offensive where I intend for it to be a revelation.

With Australia such a multicultural society now, I once was curious about someone's ethnic background, since I had worked at an aircraft factory on the payroll team, and it was interesting trying to work out people's ethnic background because there was such a wide variety of them. (They weren't 'white'). The response was they were an Aussie, just like me, born and bred here. Chalk one up to them. Since we white Aussies have only been here a little over two hundred years, and my Australian heritage only goes back about three generations, it's an interesting question in general. I certainly don't consider myself English, Irish, Jewish or German, although that is where all my ancestry comes from, and not too long ago.

[Euromutt]

I avoid describing myself as a Jew, I use 'Jewish' instead, because I have has 'Jew' thrown at me as an insult so many times, the word makes me shudder.Not that I want to criticize your decision--I'm not Jewish, so it's not my call to make--but there's an exchange early on in the (made-for-TV) movie Skokie (http://imdb.com/title/tt0083090/) in which the mayor is talking about "residents of the erm, Hebrew persuasion" and one of his advisors, who is Jewish, interrupts him with "it's okay to say 'Jew'; it's not a dirty word." Whenever I find myself hesitant to use the word "Jew," I remember that bit. Frankly, I think there's enough slurs for Jews already that the proper noun itself doesn't have to be surrendered to the haters.

[Foolmewunz]

Much of that questioning and hair-splitting comes from Jews. Judaism encourages open debate unlike some other religions. The Talmud is basically a record of rabbinic discussion and debate concerning Jewish law, ethics, customs, history, etc. Not only isn't it a sin for a Jew to question his or her religion, but blind faith is not considered a virtue in Judaism.

-Bri

Bri - I clearly said "in" Judaism. I was making the same point. The rabbinical community is renowned for its debates over minutiae. The most popular being whether life should be attributed to the moment of conception, to the viability of the fetus, or to the actual birth. The grand reb of Scarsdale determined that it was clearly after he graduates medical school. Sorry!:rolleyes: Old intra-community joke.
(A separate thread, maybe, that would get us all yelled at.... ethnic jokes that you're only allowed to tell if you are an insider in that minority.)

[Tanstaafl]

Or maybe a pic of the "Nice Jewish Psychic"

If you do that, I won't be able to look at any of your posts after eating!

[The Atheist]

If you do that, I won't be able to look at any of your posts after eating!
If you think this is bad:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/103774507d88a148af.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1456)

Then do NOT go to her website! She has a link to the nice Jewish psychic NATURIST pages. I'd say anyone brave enough to go and open the pages and check out our nice Jewish psychic without her clothes on would be able to claim the million on the grounds that you'd need paranormal abaility so as not to die of seizure when you saw her naked. OY VEY!