Pop. Mechanics vs. Loose Change: debate

[chipmunk stew]

Amy Goodman, of Democracy Now, hosted a debate today between an editor who worked on the Popular Mechanics book and Dylan & Jason.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/09/11/1345203

[Matthew Best]

I can't listen to that at work, so briefly, and if you don't mind me asking - how did it go?

[Mancman]

Sheesh.

Same old misinfo from the Loose Change crew. They were giggling like a couple of schoolchildren at some points.

[Oliver]

Boring. No Fire in it.

Worthless compared to this classic peace of CT-Tragedy:
http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0607/20060714_Fri_Stadtmiller1.mp3
http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0607/20060714_Fri_Stadtmiller2.mp3

Matthew, don´t listen to it at work if you don´t want
to draw attention to everyone around you because of
your laughs. Seriously.

[Dog Town]

Good lord, Gravy will destroy them. He knows their pet BS! They act like little kids, guess that's what they are. Cell phones? Still! Pathetic. I can smell blood in the water, theirs.

[Blackadder_no]

Quote mining time!

Jason Bermas: " - Don't believe us."

Don't worry, we don't.

[Ersby]

Best quote from the CTers: "I'm not calling anyone a liar, I'm calling you a liar."

[Brainster]

PM missed a couple of opportunities to smack them down. The Loosers actually brought up Wally Miller, and all PM could say was that it's typical of CTers to use early news accounts when details are sketchy.

They also blew the opportunity to slam them on the cellphones/Airfones issue. When the Loosers admit that a lot of the phone calls were made from Airfones, the immediate response has to be, well doesn't that prove that the calls were actually made, that there were actual hijackers? Get them onto that stupid "vocie-morphing technology" stuff!

[carlvs]

I just came from the "Skepticism, Science and Pseudoscience Group" over on Democratic Underground (yes, there is actually such a group over there) where someone had posted these two clips from the show:

Clip #1
LC Guys: If you look at the evidence, as we have, you can't possibly conclude that a commercial jet struck the Pentagon.

PM Guys: Extensive investigation has shown that the impact site and debris field are consistent with a commercial craft striking a hardened military facility.

LC Guys: Oh, come on. You're lying. You're totally totally lying. You're so lying. There's no way that it happened like that. No way.

Clip #2
LC Guys: A guy who works for an affiliate of Underwriters' Laboratory confirms that the steel in the WTC wouldn't melt after just a few minutes at 2000 degrees.

PM Guys: Underwriters Laboratory doesn't certify structural steel, so their expertise is limited in this regard.

LC Guys: Very convenient. Very convenient.

PM Guys: Further, the steel didn't have to melt. It would be sufficient to soften just a few cubic feet, weakening it so that it could no long support the weight of the floors above.

LC Guys: Oh, right. Very convenient. One guy who was in the basement of the building said that he talked to someone who thought he heard explosions. Are you calling them liars?

PM Guys: We're just saying that the facts do not bear out a controlled demolition.

LC Guys: You're lying. You're a total liar, you liar. I can't believe how you lie.

I like what this person had to say about this:

"Whatever else can be said about their research skills or tenacity in tracking down "the facts," the LC guys come across as pushy, petulant jerks."

(Actually, he didn't use the term "jerks" - but I would likely violate some rule here if I kept in the seven letter word begining with "a" :D

[Dog Town]

They also blew the opportunity to slam them on the cellphones/Airfones issue.

Gravy won't! *licking my chops*

[G-K-4]

This afternoon you will be able to download a recording of today's Democracy Now!. But I remind you that it won't be available until after noon Eastern (North American) Time.

Look for the specific day's "Listen/Watch entire archived show" link. (I can't post URL's here yet.)

Downloadable audio formats are Ogg Vorbis and MP3. Streamable video format is RealVideo. I've also seen better-looking, downloadable video files of Democracy Now! on the ChomskyTorrents website.

I look forward to hearing this! Thanks for the heads-up.

[mrfreeze]

The followers claim that the loosers totally won this one. Surprise surprise.

[DavidJames]

The followers claim that the loosers totally won this one. Surprise surprise.Oh, come on. You're lying. You're totally totally lying. You're so lying. There's no way that it happened like that. No way.

:D

[mrfreeze]

Sorry, it was the JOOOOOOS that made me lie!

Oh and apparently Colin Powell is now a neocon shill too. Because he has been to bohemian grove a few times. Go figure.

[DavidJames]

Oh and apparently Colin Powell is now a neocon shill too. Because he has been to bohemian grove a few times. Go figure.Can't say much about the grove, but I love the Rhapsody :D

[brodski]

Oh and apparently Colin Powell is now a neocon shill too. Because he has been to bohemian grove a few times. Go figure.
Well he's hardly a politically unbiased source is he?

[MarkyX]

Just listening to the debate right now..

They are getting owned.

I love how Dylan just laughs at everything, denying the existence of those passengers.

[AWPrime]

Does anyone got more discussions to download?

[chipmunk stew]

PM missed a couple of opportunities to smack them down. The Loosers actually brought up Wally Miller, and all PM could say was that it's typical of CTers to use early news accounts when details are sketchy.

They also blew the opportunity to slam them on the cellphones/Airfones issue. When the Loosers admit that a lot of the phone calls were made from Airfones, the immediate response has to be, well doesn't that prove that the calls were actually made, that there were actual hijackers? Get them onto that stupid "vocie-morphing technology" stuff!
I agree. Dylan & Jason won the debate (in the political sense). While PM had vastly more facts correct, they weren't very convincing in presenting them--they merely stated them without giving much insight into where they came from. The Loose Change boys, in contrast, were aggressively confident in their misstatements and had infinitely slicker soundbiteyness. They played to their base very well.

When Gravy gets them in front of a camera, though, having scrutinized not merely what they claim but also how they operate, and having facts and counterarguments at his fingertips and a knack for expressing them convincingly, it will be an entirely different story.

[G-K-4]

1.) When and where will this debate be held between the Loosers and "Gravy"? If it's not too far, I think I might like to see it.

2.) RE: Bohemian Grove, Sociology Professor G. William Domhoff doesn't believe in conspiracy theories. In fact, he even has an article on his website that is titled "There Are No Conspiracies", and he sees that Bohemian Grove is not a conspiracy. "It's an Elks Club for the rich; a fraternity party in the woods; a boy scout camp for old guys, complete with an initiation ceremony and a totem animal, the owl." He has a rather long article about them on his website.

I can't post URL's yet, but here's a try:
sociology-dot-ucsc-dot-edu-
slash-whorulesamerica-
slash-power-
slash-bohemian_grove-dot-html

[chran]

The debate is on YouTube:

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rT8GwBe5cg), part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo4zQ5JNfPE), part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXwXXX8Gxvk), and part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvHEgjtM21g).

Dylan and Jason comes off as arrogant and bitchy. Snorting, shaking their heads, basically acting like children.

[Ramooone]

hahaha, this is so funny.
on flt93
Jason: "To this day the coroner says he didnt find any body parts"
PM editor: "did you talk to him?"
Jason: "he wont talk to us"

[TobiasTheViking]

Ok, i feel dirty now for being around the same age as them.

:(

I feel very bad about it. the way they snort and interrupt(especially in part4 during the holocaust and evolution thing). :(

[TobiasTheViking]

also, guess what the uploader who states THIS in his profile


This YouTube account was created specifically to expose and fight the onslaught of propaganda the mainstream media is using against the 9/11 truth movement. This campaign of hatred and ignorance increased greatly during mid-summer 2006, due to a poll that showed over a third of Americans suspected government deception on 9/11/01.

I will also use this to expose the agenda these networks have to gain acceptance from the masses for another major war.

It's cliche, but knowing is seriously half the battle.

Educate yourselves and all those around you.

erased my posts, just because they didn't agree with his points..

How is that for being a hypocrit.

[TK0001]

1.) When and where will this debate be held between the Loosers and "Gravy"? If it's not too far, I think I might like to see it.

Ditto. I haven't heard of this yet....

[chipmunk stew]

Ditto. I haven't heard of this yet....
For the time being, it's merely a gentlemen's agreement:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=63534

In which case, we're probably putting the cart before the horse, since there's little evidence that the Loose Change boys are gentlemen.

[ryanebelhar]

what is "perfect freefall"?

[TK0001]

what is "perfect freefall"?

See: speed of gravity.

[Ramooone]

whenever dylan talks he's just speaking parts of his movie in vebatim like a robot. jason is a hot-headed little jerk. I think this really shows how immature these kids are, and how the "truth" movement is a bunch of crap.

[Brainster]

Best quote from the CTers: "I'm not calling anyone a liar, I'm calling you a liar."

Anybody remember Bermas claiming at Ground Zero on 9/11/05 that he wasn't with anybody else, that he didn't know any of the people there? Meanwhile, standing right next to him is Dylan Avery and filming the whole thing is Korey Rowe.

[juryjone]

This was a thoroughly disgusting spectacle. Clips from LC and half-witted responses from Dylan and his attack dog took up at least three quarters of the 40 minutes.

This is how the "debate" seemed to run:

2 minute LC clip showing knee-jerk reactions of witnesses and correspondents immediately following the disaster.

PM guys tell how subsequent research shows the immediate reactions were ill-informed.

Jason calls them liars and changes the subject.

Dylan asks to "interject" on the new subject.

Repeat ad infinitum.


I think the PM guys came across very well. However, in the WWF style of "debate" that seems to be the norm these days, I think they "lost". He who yells loudest wins in these kinds of things.

[pgwenthold]

I told you folks this was going to happen.

From the snippets posted here, it looks like all the LC guys did was a hit-and-run misinformation dump. They go from "UL certified the steal" to "a guy in the basement heard explosions" in a heartbeat.

As I said before it ever happened, you can't let this be a free for all. Pick a topic, a very narrow topic, and stick with it. "The WTC fell by a CD" is far too broad to discuss in any meaningful way in a limited time period.

[TK0001]

Boring. No Fire in it.

Worthless compared to this classic peace of CT-Tragedy:
http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0607/20060714_Fri_Stadtmiller1.mp3
http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0607/20060714_Fri_Stadtmiller2.mp3

Matthew, don´t listen to it at work if you don´t want
to draw attention to everyone around you because of
your laughs. Seriously.

I'm about halfway through the first one.

One question.....what the hell is this?

[TruthSeeker1234]

Interesting PM will debate the kids, but have refused to debate grownups like Jones, Fetzer, et al. Anybody in this forum wish to defend the official story at the National 9/11 debate. Takers?

[TK0001]

Interesting PM will debate the kids, but have refused to debate grownups like Jones, Fetzer, et al. Anybody in this forum wish to defend the official story at the National 9/11 debate. Takers?

What the hell is "the National 9/11 debate"?

[chran]

Also, here's a link to a torrent of the file.

http://www.chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=1901

The file is an .mp4-file, encoded in mp4v @ 576x432, 0:59:05 in length. Good quality. Playable in VLC-player (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/). The debate starts about 16 minutes in.

I'll be seeding all night (that's for at least the next 8 hours for you non-Europeans). At the moment there are 44 seeds and 40 peers, so should be fast. I downloaded at around 100 kB/s.

[TK0001]

I'll be seeding all night

De-sgusting.

[chran]

De-sgusting. Yeah, guess I should suppress it, huh?

[TobiasTheViking]

as of now i'm seeding on a 25/25mbit line.(well, my home line)

[Mr. Skinny]

As the father of a couple of 20 something children myself, I'm wondering how the parents of this dynamic duo feel?

If this was my son, I'm afraid I'd smack him across the face and tell him to stop besmirching my good name by spreading this crapola. At minimum, I'd ask him to change his last name. Yech!

[TobiasTheViking]

As the father of a couple of 20 something children myself, I'm wondering how the parents of this dynamic duo feel?

If this was my son, I'm afraid I'd smack him across the face and tell him to stop besmirching my good name by spreading this crapola. At minimum, I'd ask him to change his last name. Yech!

you have a couple of some 20 children... O.o that's.... quite impressive.

;)

[Dog Town]

As the father of a couple of 20 something children myself, I'm wondering how the parents of this dynamic duo feel?

If this was my son, I'm afraid I'd smack him across the face and tell him to stop besmirching my good name by spreading this crapola. At minimum, I'd ask him to change his last name. Yech!

This is what no swats in school, gets ya! Spare the rod create a moron, or something like that./joke mode. Can we get a do over ? They should have been blow jobs!

[Mr. Skinny]

On second thought, maybe Dylan's folks are proud of him. I mean, he's a widely talked about flimaker, I mean filmaker, he's on the radio, and podcasts and stuff.

His folks might think he's making something of himself, compared to what he was doing before he made LC.

Who knows? *shrug*

[Oliver]

I'm about halfway through the first one.

One question.....what the hell is this?

It´s Stadtmillers show on RBN, he supports a lot
of CT-Guest and the episode i added is about
a raged Stadtmiller because Eric Hufschmid did
a lot of accusations on his Website against him,
Dylan Avery & Co and a lot of other people.

This is the site he´s talking about.
http://www.erichufschmid.net/Avery-Rowe-Bermas-Hufschmid-phonecall.html

BTW: a good example how twistet holodeniers paranoid brains are.

[David Wong]

Hey, was it on here where I saw the link to Alex Jones with Noam Chomsky as a guest by phone? Where Jones let Chomsky hang up and then started ranting that Chomsky was an NWO shill?

I wish I had that link but I think it was here where I saw it in the first place.

[T.A.M.]

I would hope someone like Mackey or gumboot or gravy or brainster...well there are so many, who could stand up to Jones or Fetzer. the trouble is that A. Jones and Fetzer just act like Dylan and Jason, but with more inches on their belts.

The problem with Miegs is that he is weak as a debator. I think it is two-fold (1) he seems a bit of an introvert, and (2) he does not have a solid background on the info. I tihnk the guy with him was their Research guy, and he was way too quiet as well.

I think if there was anyone outside the MTV age group watching, that PM won, but for the LC clan, and the MTV generation, the LC guys with their giggling, name calling, etc...won the smackdown.

I hope Gravy takes them to task, because they are way, way too arrogant. A few pegs won't be enough.

Remember what we said though Gravy, Stick to one topic, and don't let them move on until they commit to an answer and back it up...

TAM

[Dog Town]

Dude,... it's Gravy!

[Alareth]

LC: We have information from an interview Neener Neeener Neener *sticks out tongue and thumbs nose*

PM: That interview was from early on and you quoted out of context.

LC: Liar Liar Pants on Fire!!!! *Stamps feet and makes a pouty face*

I haven't seen/listened to the actual debate yet but that how it sounds in my head reading the transcript.

[T.A.M.]

oh you hit the nail on the head, that is pretty much how the "debate" went.

[negativ]

as of now i'm seeding on a 25/25mbit line.(well, my home line)

I find your bandwidth intriguing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Brainache]

I watched part 1 of the PM/LC debate.
Why do I get the strong feeling that Bermas is doing the "lieing to infidels" thing.
Am I just being racist because he looks Middle Eastern? I don't know. I'm just asking questions.

He certainly seems to be the smartest one of the LC stooges. He is way more confident on camera than anyone else in the show(including the presenter). I have worked in TV studios for 16 years and it is extremely rare to see someone perform the way he does without a lot of experience and/or training.

Look at the PM guys very knowledgable mature gentlemen who seem to be a bit crippled by nerves.

Look at Dylan he is nervous, but his confidence is being boosted by his stronger buddy.

Look at Bermas he looks like a seasoned politician campaigning in his third election. Where did he get all that calm confidence? He is billed as the LC Researcher. I never met a reseacher who acted like that.
Researchers who act like that are star reporters, not backroom people.

Is Loose Change an example of the Cyber terrorism that the PNAC(?) document talks about?(I mean the document that LC always quotes as calling for a new Pearl Harbour)

As I said at the top I've only watched the first part so far, but I have to say that I think Bermas is way too slick to be what he claims to be.
This is based on nearly twenty years in the TV industry dealing with interview subjects daily for news and current affairs as a Floor Manager. So make of it what you will.

[Dog Town]

Look at Bermas he looks like a seasoned politician campaigning in his third election. Where did he get all that calm confidence?
He will be the first to go his own way! Soon I would think!
Not sure I would ever define him as calm!

[T.A.M.]

I see it more as beligerent arrogance than confidence. His total disregard and disrespect for others is infuriating.

[David Wong]

I watched part 1 of the PM/LC debate.

Is Loose Change an example of the Cyber terrorism that the PNAC(?) document talks about?(I mean the document that LC always quotes as calling for a new Pearl Harbour)



If I understand the new rules correctly, the burden is now 100% on Bermas to prove he's not part of a conspiracy.

[Brainache]

If I understand the new rules correctly, the burden is now 100% on Bermas to prove he's not part of a conspiracy.

I'm just asking questions...:boxedin:

[Dog Town]

If I understand the new rules correctly, the burden is now 100% on Bermas to prove he's not part of a conspiracy.

Liar, liar pants on fire! /Bermas

[David Wong]

I'm just asking questions...:boxedin:

I just went through the entire 9/11 report and I can't find a single mention of Jason Bermas. Well, isn't that convenient that not ONE WORD was devoted to investigating his terrorist ties?

Kind of makes you wonder what they didn't want us to know.

[Brainache]

I'd be interested to know where he got his media training. It is not impossible that the guy is just a natural, just highly unlikely.

[Mr. Skinny]

I watched part 1 of the PM/LC debate.
Why do I get the strong feeling that Bermas is doing the "lieing to infidels" thing.
Am I just being racist because he looks Middle Eastern? I don't know. I'm just asking questions.

He certainly seems to be the smartest one of the LC stooges. He is way more confident on camera than anyone else in the show(including the presenter). I have worked in TV studios for 16 years and it is extremely rare to see someone perform the way he does without a lot of experience and/or training.

Look at the PM guys very knowledgable mature gentlemen who seem to be a bit crippled by nerves.

Look at Dylan he is nervous, but his confidence is being boosted by his stronger buddy.

Look at Bermas he looks like a seasoned politician campaigning in his third election. Where did he get all that calm confidence? He is billed as the LC Researcher. I never met a reseacher who acted like that.
Researchers who act like that are star reporters, not backroom people.

Is Loose Change an example of the Cyber terrorism that the PNAC(?) document talks about?(I mean the document that LC always quotes as calling for a new Pearl Harbour)

As I said at the top I've only watched the first part so far, but I have to say that I think Bermas is way too slick to be what he claims to be.
This is based on nearly twenty years in the TV industry dealing with interview subjects daily for news and current affairs as a Floor Manager. So make of it what you will.
I think you're on to something, Brainache. Your experience in the television industry is impressive. It has helped me to give a serious look toward this Bermas fellow.

I have noted this on my ever-present notepad placed here next to my Frosted Flakes, and will notify my person of hench/controller tomorrow.

Bermas would do well to tone down his obvious elite education.

[StoneWT]

Gawd, these kids are incredibly stupid. I predicted that they were going to spread BS and play to their fans instead of going for an actual 'win'.

I think they realize that they will never attract a significant number of the general population. LC's audience is similar to Amway/Quixtar's members. They're simply trying to replace the people driven away by the idiocy.

To Dylan Avery (yes, you and/or your people read this forum):

You know that you are lying about what happened on 9/11. Is the feeling of crisp $100 bills in your hand worth the shame that comes from mocking the victims that died in the WTC and Pentagon? Is your desire for a meal ticket that will last for the next ten or twenty years so strong that you are driven to lie about witness statements? What about your friend and fellow LC that served in the military? Does his service to America mean so little that he will besmirch the members of the military at the Pentagon on that fateful day?

Dylan, I spoke at Real History 2004. It was David Irving's conference. It's frequented by members of the American Free Press. I don't buy the rubbish pushed by the revisionists, but they gave good feedback because I stuck to the facts. When David is released from prison and if he wants me to give a presentation, I may focus on Loose Change along with 9/11 theories in general. You won't be able to cry about government service as I was an enlisted man in the Marine Corps over 5 years ago. You won't be able to cry about bad treatment as I don't give two figs for you as a person.

You aren't important. The victims are important. Do you remember the victims? LC mocked their fight against the hijackers on Flight 93. LC mocked the last words of a stewardess about to crash into the towers. You and your crew insinuated that a father allowed his son to die in the Pentagon crash. Mark Bingham sacrificed his life to save his fellow Americans. Americans like Dylan Avery and the LC crew. People that mocked his last chance in this life to speak with his mother.

Hug your pile of cash Dylan. You're going to be exposed in the same manner as Linda Thompson and her flamethrower tank at Waco. Your fame in the CT world will be short. Your 'friends' are going to flee from you. Your fans are rabble rousers that will constantly demand more miracles from their cult leader. Miracles that you have run out of Dylan. Stop now while you have a chance.

If you have even an ounce of heart in your body, reflect on what Mark Bingham did for all Americans including a young man named Dylan Avery. Even facing death, his love for his mother was strong enough for him to spend some of his last seconds on Earth talking to her. His love for America and his fellow human beings was strong enough for him to sacrifice his life.

"Mom, this is Mark Bingham." (http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6144691019226059520&hl=en-CA)

[Axiom_Blade]

Hey, was it on here where I saw the link to Alex Jones with Noam Chomsky as a guest by phone? Where Jones let Chomsky hang up and then started ranting that Chomsky was an NWO shill?

I wish I had that link but I think it was here where I saw it in the first place.

Here ya go. (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1687081928697323766&q=chomsky) It's a real piece of work.

I was just completely baffled as to what Jones' problem was. Apparently it makes sense, though, if you're not one of the "sheeple".

[Gravy]

Interesting PM will debate the kids, but have refused to debate grownups like Jones, Fetzer, et al. Anybody in this forum wish to defend the official story at the National 9/11 debate. Takers?
1) If Jones, Fetzer et al have demonstrated anything in the past few months, it is that they do not behave like adults. Do I really need to remind you that Fetzer condemned all structural engineers to "a special place in Hell," that Judy Wood is now claiming that the towers could only have been brought down by something like a nuclear weapon, and that Jones was pulled out of his classes because of his irresponsible behavior.

2) I do not discuss these issues to support the official story. I do it to present facts to those who lack them.

3) I will gladly debate all of them in one session, provided I get equal time and can approve of the moderator. I will write to them to see if they approve. If they do, I'll probably need to pass the hat to help with travel expenses and a camera operator. I'm broke, and the debate is in South Carolina or somewhere down there, IIRC.

[LashL]

I see it more as beligerent arrogance than confidence. His total disregard and disrespect for others is infuriating.

I agree. He struck me as a wild-eyed, eye rolling, childish hothead.

That said, he performed better than his partner in slime, Avery, who looked nervous, disengaged, and did nothing more than repeat his lines from the video.

[Dog Town]

Where do I send the check?
Hey, so...how'd it go?

[Ramooone]

did anyone else find it funny that jason bermas in one part of the interview talks about the minetta thing about the plane being 50 miles out, and then in the next section talks about how no plane hit the pentagon. which is it jason?? was there a plane 50 miles out about to strike the pentagon, or no plane?

[Dog Town]

did anyone else find it funny that jason bermas in one part of the interview talks about the minetta thing about the plane being 50 miles out, and then in the next section talks about how no plane hit the pentagon. which is it jason?? was there a plane 50 miles out about to strike the pentagon, or no plane?

Silly wabbit, facts aren't for kids!

[Brainster]

I watched part 1 of the PM/LC debate.
Why do I get the strong feeling that Bermas is doing the "lieing to infidels" thing.
Am I just being racist because he looks Middle Eastern? I don't know. I'm just asking questions.

He certainly seems to be the smartest one of the LC stooges. He is way more confident on camera than anyone else in the show(including the presenter). I have worked in TV studios for 16 years and it is extremely rare to see someone perform the way he does without a lot of experience and/or training.

Look at the PM guys very knowledgable mature gentlemen who seem to be a bit crippled by nerves.

Look at Dylan he is nervous, but his confidence is being boosted by his stronger buddy.

Look at Bermas he looks like a seasoned politician campaigning in his third election. Where did he get all that calm confidence? He is billed as the LC Researcher. I never met a reseacher who acted like that.
Researchers who act like that are star reporters, not backroom people.

Is Loose Change an example of the Cyber terrorism that the PNAC(?) document talks about?(I mean the document that LC always quotes as calling for a new Pearl Harbour)

As I said at the top I've only watched the first part so far, but I have to say that I think Bermas is way too slick to be what he claims to be.
This is based on nearly twenty years in the TV industry dealing with interview subjects daily for news and current affairs as a Floor Manager. So make of it what you will.

He's just a smooth-talking BS artist. For whatever reason, he's able to zone out the cameras and give a natural delivery. But he's every bit as bad on the follow-through and on the details as any bullslinger, which is why he was working two jobs and managing a pizza parlor (IIRC).

[gumboot]

I would hope someone like Mackey or gumboot or gravy or brainster...well there are so many, who could stand up to Jones or Fetzer. the trouble is that A. Jones and Fetzer just act like Dylan and Jason, but with more inches on their belts.


Man what I wouldn't give to have a debate with Mr Jones. Oh how I can't stand that man.

So easy to win too. They're such insane psychopaths, I feel fairly confident within a matter of minutes I could push the right buttons and have them foaming at the mouth, rambling incoherently.

Bit of background. (Bit of a self-sell)

I practically grew up on a stage. I've been doing performance - live and on screen - for as long as I can remember. Frankly, I'm a natural. I feel comfortable in front fo a camera or on a stage in the way that most people feel comfortable sitting in an armchair.

These sort of debates aren't about facts. They're about performance. Sad, but true. It's info-tainment. I don't consider myself especially knowledgable in the whole 9/11 thing - certainly not compared to some of our heavy weights. But I am fairly comfortable I'd be able to run circles around any of the 9/11 Denier movement, based on performance alone.

Hopefully one day I can get to the US and have a play with the folks at GZ. I'm looking forward to it.

-Andrew

[Brainache]

He's just a smooth-talking BS artist. For whatever reason, he's able to zone out the cameras and give a natural delivery. But he's every bit as bad on the follow-through and on the details as any bullslinger, which is why he was working two jobs and managing a pizza parlor (IIRC).


Maybe that's why he reminds me so much of a crooked politician. I think he knows he is talking BS and has no qualms whatsoever about doing it.
Some kind of sociopath IMO.

[gumboot]

I think I'm going to be sick...

Just watched the first bit, can't watch any more. How can they sit there and speak such lies.

They talk about the US Govt not releasing all the evidence. Never mind that stuff is private property and the US HAS NO RIGHT to release it. Never mind it is ILLEGAL for the US to release CVR tapes from air crashes (yes that's right, the public release of cockpit voice recorders is prohibited by law).

These people make me spew. This "evidence" is pieces of peoples' lives. It is private property. They do NOT have a right to it. Since when did governments EVER release everything willy-nilly for the general public to do as they want with it?

-Andrew

[DarkMagician]

Liar, liar pants on fire! /Bermas

I would have went with "No backsies!"

[smother]

It's a bit sad for me to admit that LC actually won the debate.

Meigs stuttered his points and was very nervous. Dunbar seemed to be minutes from slipping into a coma. And they missed every opportunity they got when Dylan/Jason either contradicted themselves or tried to get away with unsubstantiated claims.

And most important - Meigs/Dunbar were always defensive. If you wanna win a debate you have to be offensive. You have to pound on the weak points in your opponents arguments. And you have to repeat the pounding. Demand answers again and again when you feel that your opponent is in deep.

For instance with the cell phones/air phones. PM should have pointed out that LC claims that the calls were made using voice morphing technology. It's a ridiculous claim and PM should have insisted that Jason/Dylan explained how it worked.

That would enable PM to play their strongest card: that LC is mocking the victims and the surviving relatives. LC is actually claiming that a mother/father/wife/husband is unable to tell that it wasn't their loved ones they were talking to.

ETA: Can you even imagine how Dylan/Jason would answer the following question: "Let's assume there is such a voice morphing technology. Are you claiming that none of the surviving relatives were able to tell that it was actually a machine they were talking to? Huh?". They can either: A) say they don't know what they're talking about or B) mock the victims/survivors. Regardless of their answer, you have won the discussion.

Or they could have taken up the missile into the Pentagon claim. What about the eye witnesses, what about the light poles, what about the damage being totally inconsistent with a missile. They should have pressured for answers on these vital (and un-answerable) questions.

[Shrinker]

It's a bit sad for me to admit that LC actually won the debate.

Meigs stuttered his points and was very nervous. Dunbar seemed to be minutes from slipping into a coma. And they missed every opportunity they got when Dylan/Jason either contradicted themselves or tried to get away with unsubstantiated claims.

And most important - Meigs/Dunbar were always defensive. If you wanna win a debate you have to be offensive. You have to pound on the weak points in your opponents arguments. And you have to repeat the pounding. Demand answers again and again when you feel that your opponent is in deep.

For instance with the cell phones/air phones. PM should have pointed out that LC claims that the calls were made using voice morphing technology. It's a ridiculous claim and PM should have insisted that Jason/Dylan explained how it worked.

That would enable PM to play their strongest card: that LC is mocking the victims and the surviving relatives. LC is actually claiming that a mother/father/wife/husband is unable to tell that it wasn't their loved ones they were talking to.

ETA: Can you even imagine how Dylan/Jason would answer the following question: "Let's assume there is such a voice morphing technology. Are you claiming that none of the surviving relatives were able to tell that it was actually a machine they were talking to? Huh?". They can either: A) say they don't know what they're talking about or B) mock the victims/survivors. Regardless of their answer, you have won the discussion.

Or they could have taken up the missile into the Pentagon claim. What about the eye witnesses, what about the light poles, what about the damage being totally inconsistent with a missile. They should have pressured for answers on these vital (and un-answerable) questions.

Agreed it was a fairly weak showing. Although it was amusing how Dylan threw in the towel on the phones issue, just after everyone finished talking about it.

[gumboot]

Agreed it was a fairly weak showing. Although it was amusing how Dylan threw in the towel on the phones issue, just after everyone finished talking about it.

I agree also...

They let the dynamic duo get away with far too much. The only strength LC has is in the quantity of evidence, not the quality. They should have refused to let the debate pass beyond the first point until the boys accepted the facts.

I'm talking the United 93 comments.

Any time it went off that, the PM guys should have, next time they spoke, just hauled it back. And they shouldn't have been afraid to bring up LC's theories pro-actively - they should have FORCED them to discuss the weakest of their theories.

-Andrew

[smother]

Any time it went off that, the PM guys should have, next time they spoke, just hauled it back. And they shouldn't have been afraid to bring up LC's theories pro-actively - they should have FORCED them to discuss the weakest of their theories.


Exactly. That's what I'm talking about. When the discussion is revolving around the official story, it goes like this:

LC: poke a hole
PM: repair hole
LC: poke another hole
PM: repair hole

And LC have thousands and thousands of tiny poke-a-holes (tm). They can continue this game for hours. You need to be in their face all the time. When they ask a question, you answer it backing it up with facts. But then you have to bring the ball to their court and demand answers. And when they dodge your questions, you have to press for an answer until it is apparant for everybody that they don't have an answer.

[TobiasTheViking]

I find your bandwidth intriguing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Ok, since i started seeding it i have uploaded 14700.3MB.

That is the first update from my newsletter.


I fail to see what you wanted to accomplish with your comment. I stated my speed so people could see that they would get good speed, and it wouldn't take them 3 days to download.

[chipmunk stew]

1) If Jones, Fetzer et al have demonstrated anything in the past few months, it is that they do not behave like adults. Do I really need to remind you that Fetzer condemned all structural engineers to "a special place in Hell," that Judy Wood is now claiming that the towers could only have been brought down by something like a nuclear weapon, and that Jones was pulled out of his classes because of his irresponsible behavior.

2) I do not discuss these issues to support the official story. I do it to present facts to those who lack them.

3) I will gladly debate all of them in one session, provided I get equal time and can approve of the moderator. I will write to them to see if they approve. If they do, I'll probably need to pass the hat to help with travel expenses and a camera operator. I'm broke, and the debate is in South Carolina or somewhere down there, IIRC.

Man what I wouldn't give to have a debate with Mr Jones. Oh how I can't stand that man.

So easy to win too. They're such insane psychopaths, I feel fairly confident within a matter of minutes I could push the right buttons and have them foaming at the mouth, rambling incoherently.

Bit of background. (Bit of a self-sell)

I practically grew up on a stage. I've been doing performance - live and on screen - for as long as I can remember. Frankly, I'm a natural. I feel comfortable in front fo a camera or on a stage in the way that most people feel comfortable sitting in an armchair.

These sort of debates aren't about facts. They're about performance. Sad, but true. It's info-tainment. I don't consider myself especially knowledgable in the whole 9/11 thing - certainly not compared to some of our heavy weights. But I am fairly comfortable I'd be able to run circles around any of the 9/11 Denier movement, based on performance alone.

Hopefully one day I can get to the US and have a play with the folks at GZ. I'm looking forward to it.

-Andrew
If you were offered adequate funding for travel expenses, would you consider joining Gravy?

[Dave1001]

My question with the Loose Change guys is whose oxygen are they eating up that otherwise would fill that gap of being a skeptic official goverment narratives?

Who would you WANT to see on the other end of the discussion besides the Loose Change guys.

Because we want diverse critcial perspectives, not foils to power-align off of, right?

[gumboot]

If you were offered adequate funding for travel expenses, would you consider joining Gravy?

I'd gladly volunteer as Gravy's camera operator and bag carrier... :D

Actively contributing to the debate beside Gravy is like throwing rocks while he lobs nukes!

-Andrew

[Hutch]

3) I will gladly debate all of them in one session, provided I get equal time and can approve of the moderator. I will write to them to see if they approve. If they do, I'll probably need to pass the hat to help with travel expenses and a camera operator. I'm broke, and the debate is in South Carolina or somewhere down there, IIRC.--Gravy

Mark, I ain't got your brains, but I do have a dollar or two.

If you find a place and a setting that you can debate these cretins on a level field (not that they would ever grant you a level field, but one where you can at least be heard), you let us know. I (and I think many of the ninjas) will do our best to get you there.

So you worry about getting the conditions of the debate you want (and get them in writing), then let me know when and where...

[TK0001]

Mark, I ain't got your brains, but I do have a dollar or two.

If you find a place and a setting that you can debate these cretins on a level field (not that they would ever grant you a level field, but one where you can at least be heard), you let us know. I (and I think many of the ninjas) will do our best to get you there.

So you worry about getting the conditions of the debate you want (and get them in writing), then let me know when and where...

Taking it a bit (okay, a lot) further, I think a formal debate between the two camps would actually draw TV ratings. Has anyone yet proposed the idea to a network? The network could set it all up and make sure it's completely neutral, so each side doesn't need to rely upon each other's word.

I'd think Discovery or the History Channel would be interested.

[JamesB]

I agree also...

They let the dynamic duo get away with far too much. The only strength LC has is in the quantity of evidence, not the quality. They should have refused to let the debate pass beyond the first point until the boys accepted the facts.

I'm talking the United 93 comments.

Any time it went off that, the PM guys should have, next time they spoke, just hauled it back. And they shouldn't have been afraid to bring up LC's theories pro-actively - they should have FORCED them to discuss the weakest of their theories.

-Andrew

Dylan actually admitted that their cell phone theory was "weak", without even being forced. Now if we can just get him to admit the entire movie is weak.

[TobiasTheViking]

I'd gladly volunteer as Gravy's camera operator and bag carrier... :D

Actively contributing to the debate beside Gravy is like throwing rocks while he lobs nukes!

-Andrew

then i wanna be his groupie :D

[juryjone]

I agree also...

They let the dynamic duo get away with far too much. The only strength LC has is in the quantity of evidence, not the quality. They should have refused to let the debate pass beyond the first point until the boys accepted the facts.

I'm talking the United 93 comments.

Any time it went off that, the PM guys should have, next time they spoke, just hauled it back. And they shouldn't have been afraid to bring up LC's theories pro-actively - they should have FORCED them to discuss the weakest of their theories.

-Andrew
One of my main problems with the "debate" was that the host didn't allow for that. As I said before, it was
- long clip from LC
- short answer from PM
- change of subject from DA and attack dog
- as PM tries to respond, host says "I want to get to the Pentagon" or "Let's talk about the towers" and throws it to the next clip.

This was not a moderated debate. It was exactly what the LC crew wanted - a chance to yell and "poke holes". It was not controlled at all.

Gravy, I would be happy to contribute whatever I can to your presence at the debate. But I am very concerned, as you are, about the moderator and whether they will aid in the effort to keep things on subject.

[chipmunk stew]

I'd gladly volunteer as Gravy's camera operator and bag carrier... :D

Actively contributing to the debate beside Gravy is like throwing rocks while he lobs nukes!

-Andrew
My friends and I always used to joke:
I want you to know--I've always got your back. If things ever get rough, I'll hold your coat. :)

But seriously, a stone in the crotch or the eye every so often interspersed through the all-out devastation might provide just the kind of slapstick entertainment that woud draw a crowd. And everyone loves an accent.

[TK0001]

Taking it a bit (okay, a lot) further, I think a formal debate between the two camps would actually draw TV ratings. Has anyone yet proposed the idea to a network? The network could set it all up and make sure it's completely neutral, so each side doesn't need to rely upon each other's word.

I'd think Discovery or the History Channel would be interested.

Found this at the Discovery Channel site:

What is Discovery Communications policy on the submission of program ideas?

We are only able to accept proposals from established production companies. If you are an individual with a program idea or are interested in being talent on a program, you should do your own research on production companies and contact them. There is further information about Discovery's policies on our producer's web site: http://producers.discovery.com



Anyone work for a production company?

[dirtywick]

Hi,

I'm really glad I saw this debate, because I think it highlighted an important point. These Loose Change guys, they're a bunch of kids. When you sit them down next to two educated, informed individuals they're jumping at the first chance to snicker, shake their heads, interrupt the debate, and call people liars. I mean, it's really hard to take these guys seriously when they're acting like that, totally uninterested in what the opposition has to say. When they're uninterested in hearing any refutation of the information in their movie without interupting others with laughs and name calling, it's hard to believe they're interested in hearing the truth are more interested in hearing their followers say "PWNED" on a message board. That's, of course, if you took them seriously to begin with.

I think that's more discrediting than anything to a person who's on the fence.

Anyways, I appreciate when you guys are doing here, especially with 9/11 and the psychics, I think it's great. Keep it up!

[pgwenthold]

Exactly. That's what I'm talking about. When the discussion is revolving around the official story, it goes like this:

LC: poke a hole
PM: repair hole
LC: poke another hole
PM: repair hole

And LC have thousands and thousands of tiny poke-a-holes (tm). They can continue this game for hours. You need to be in their face all the time. When they ask a question, you answer it backing it up with facts. But then you have to bring the ball to their court and demand answers. And when they dodge your questions, you have to press for an answer until it is apparant for everybody that they don't have an answer.

I wish people would listen to me :( I say it again, I told you all this was going to happen.

You can't debate an issue as extensive as a CT. You have to pick a specific topic, and stick to it. Like one of the "holes" that you highlight above.

[negativ]

Anyone work for a production company?

Eh. What does it take to be an "established" production company? Seems like you'd just declare yourself a production company, come up with some goofy name for it (e.g. Louder Than Words, Dumber Than Dirt, Taxivasion Productions, etc) and begin to "produce" something. You don't even have to finish it, just call it "a work in progress".

I'm not aware of some sort of official Production Company Certification Bureau.:confused:

[negativ]

Anyways, I appreciate when you guys are doing here, especially with 9/11 and the psychics, I think it's great. Keep it up!

The Dover PA. intelligent design brouhaha brought me here, and I've been addicted ever since.

Welcome to the forum!

[Ramooone]

Found this at the Discovery Channel site:



Anyone work for a production company?

i run a small media company out in brooklyn, and i work for bbc america, but we dont do news shows, just crappy reality shows like trading spaces and stuff.

[Dog Town]

I think C-Span would scoop this up! Would provide cams,and ops as well, if they are into it.

[gumboot]

One of my main problems with the "debate" was that the host didn't allow for that. As I said before, it was
- long clip from LC
- short answer from PM
- change of subject from DA and attack dog
- as PM tries to respond, host says "I want to get to the Pentagon" or "Let's talk about the towers" and throws it to the next clip.


Anyone else notice, before the first clip she said it would be about the plane that hit The Pentagon, but then the clip was all about United 93? :confused:

-Andrew

[hellaeon]

I cant stand Bermas, he is immensly rude, he has no idea of manners. Someone will crack and smacks his chops one day at GZ.

As for the debate hats off to the PM guys, they remain calm and intelligent while the other two come off as eccentric loons. Its pretty obvious to an observer who is emotional and who is fact based. But thats my interpretation.

[shuize]

I cant stand Bermas, he is immensly rude, he has no idea of manners. Someone will crack and smacks his chops one day at GZ.

When someone does, what do you want to bet the cops on the scene won't believe Bermas' version of events then either.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

When someone does, what do you want to bet the cops on the scene won't believe Bermas' version of events then either.

Not doing much to prevent this from happening, are ya Shuize? ;)

[shuize]

Not doing much to prevent this from happening, are ya Shuize? ;)

Off topic: No, I'm really not. But you know, that's the thing about the CT nutters. They'll repeatedly go to Ground Zero, get in people's faces, disrespect the victims and their families and then, inevitably, when someone finally pops them, I guarantee they'll claim it's proof of a government plot to silence them.

[hellaeon]

Boring. No Fire in it.

Worthless compared to this classic peace of CT-Tragedy:
http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0607/20060714_Fri_Stadtmiller1.mp3
http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0607/20060714_Fri_Stadtmiller2.mp3

Matthew, don´t listen to it at work if you don´t want
to draw attention to everyone around you because of
your laughs. Seriously.

:D

classic

Edit: had to turn it off after a while, the callers astound me.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Off topic: No, I'm really not. But you know, that's the thing about the CT nutters. They'll repeatedly go to Ground Zero, get in people's faces, disrespect the victims and their families and then, inevitably, when someone finally pops them, I guarantee they'll claim it's proof of a government plot to silence them.

Ok. But just so we're clear on this issue, pointing out that the cops will likely wink and look the other way is tantamount to saying "I encourage someone to take a swing at Bermas" and something that we as civilized persons shouldn't do. ;)

[David Wong]

Ok. But just so we're clear on this issue, pointing out that the cops will likely wink and look the other way is tantamount to saying "I encourage someone to take a swing at Bermas" and something that we as civilized persons shouldn't do. ;)

Also, don't come at him with a box cutter because he'll just laugh in your face.

[chipmunk stew]

Also, don't come at him with a box cutter because he'll just laugh in your face.
He really knows how to hurt a guy's feelings, doesn't he?

[T.A.M.]

Welcome to the JREF Forum dirtywick. Your opinions here will be allowed, even if not accepted. If you have any other doubts, or want to ask questions around 9/11, these guys are more than willing to help.

TAM

[dirtywick]

Thanks for the welcome.

Also, don't come at him with a box cutter because he'll just laugh in your face.

haha nice. That's what I'm talking about with these guys being just kids. It's not a reality where you turn into superman when some crazy guy is sticking a knife in your face, that's a kids fantasy land.

[T.A.M.]

The best one is when Fetzer says he would hit them with his luggage. First Fetzer would have to get his luggage far enough off the ground to hit them with it, then he'd have to have the energy to swing it, then if he didnt have a coronary from doing that, he'd have to drop the bags, grab the knife, and jump on his assailant, crushing him....

Dont see it happening, but it was funny when he said it.

TAM

[Axiom_Blade]

Off topic: No, I'm really not. But you know, that's the thing about the CT nutters. They'll repeatedly go to Ground Zero, get in people's faces, disrespect the victims and their families and then, inevitably, when someone finally pops them, I guarantee they'll claim it's proof of a government plot to silence them.

Obviously, only an NWO shill would punch somebody who was just asking questions.

[Bronze Dog]

Obviously, only an NWO shill would punch somebody who was just asking questions.

Yeah, it's not like non-CT nutbars ever get emotional about that sort of thing, since we're ALL in on it with no human emotion whatsoever. (http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2006/09/they-waste-their-time-so-you-wont-have.html) ;)

[TK0001]

i run a small media company out in brooklyn, and i work for bbc america, but we dont do news shows, just crappy reality shows like trading spaces and stuff.

Well, they didn't specify - they seem to be content with ideas posed on a production company's letterhead.

Care to write up a proposal to them and send it from your place of business?

[NDBoston]

i run a small media company out in brooklyn, and i work for bbc america, but we dont do news shows, just crappy reality shows like trading spaces and stuff.

OT- I'm guessing you're a large O&A fan?

:lol: