Something I don't understand

[TT777]

Where is the damage to the wall from the wings hitting? Or did they fold in and go into the hole made by the fuselage?

[Mancman]

That's the exit hole in the C ring, 310ft away from where the plane hit the building.

[defaultdotxbe]

heres a pic on the outside, sote the damage along the ground floor formt he wings

linked because its a bit large (http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/4891/pentagon2ac6.jpg)

[TT777]

Well the sign kind of led me to believe that photo was taken outside.

[T.A.M.]

The way the pentagon is structured, it is like several pentagons, each inside the other, with a gap in between each. You can drive inside the gap between the "rings".

[David Wong]

Well the sign kind of led me to believe that photo was taken outside.

You're not allowed to park inside the building.

[T.A.M.]

http://www.conmicro.cx/~kturtle/pictures/googleearth/Pentagon.jpg
http://keyholepublishing.com/pentagon-hole.jpg
http://www.tigerwires.com/fot/lib/fot/pentagon-hole-big2.jpg

first pic - overhead of pentagon
second pic - exit hole
third pic - entrance hole (90 feet wide at base, then 16 feet wide on 2nd floor)

[gumboot]

Well the sign kind of led me to believe that photo was taken outside.

There's narrow roads between the various "rings". At that section of The Pentagon the CDE rings are continuous at the ground floor, but there is a roadway between the C and B rings. It even has a name - AE Drive, I believe. No doubt you are not allowed to park there for a variety of reasons, security, traffic flow, etc.

-Andrew

[TT777]

The way the pentagon is structured, it is like several pentagons, each inside the other, with a gap in between each. You can drive inside the gap between the "rings".


Interesting...A few years after 9/11 I got to go on a tour of the Pentagon. (My brother-in-law worked in the Army there as a Lt. Colonel). I remember seeing the very center of the Pentagon, so we must've been in Ring A.
Based on this image, I don't see how vehicles could drive between the 'rings'

[gumboot]

Interesting...A few years after 9/11 I got to go on a tour of the Pentagon. (My brother-in-law worked in the Army there as a Lt. Colonel). I remember seeing the very center of the Pentagon, so we must've been in Ring A.
Based on this image, I don't see how vehicles could drive between the 'rings'


*shrugs* Maybe there's shuttles that drive around them (it's a big building, afterall). Maybe there's entrances into them from underneath or whatever. Dunno.

Obviously you CAN drive through then, somehow, because there's a no parking sign.

-Andrew

[defaultdotxbe]

Interesting...A few years after 9/11 I got to go on a tour of the Pentagon. (My brother-in-law worked in the Army there as a Lt. Colonel). I remember seeing the very center of the Pentagon, so we must've been in Ring A.
Based on this image, I don't see how vehicles could drive between the 'rings'

maybe theres an entrace via undergorund garage or something, but that is definately the AE drive in your picture, between the C and B rings

[Pardalis]

TT777, so you base your entire doubt on that freaking no parking sign?

A true CTist.

[gumboot]

maybe theres an entrace via undergorund garage or something, but that is definately the AE drive in your picture, between the C and B rings

What does the AE stand for?

Accident and Emergency?

-Andrew

[TT777]

TT777, so you base your entire doubt on that freaking no parking sign?

A true CTist.

No, that's just one of many.

And I would like to add that visiting this forum is helping to strengthen my doubt on the official explanation.

[T.A.M.]

no, i don't think he is well enough versed to be a true CTist. Most CTers know that is the exit hole, they just like to use the number that goes with it (16 feet) for the entrance hole, which we know is a COS (Crock of Shaite).

[Pardalis]

As I said, a true CTist.

[TT777]

As I said, a true CTist.

That helped.

Thanks

[defaultdotxbe]

And I would like to add that visiting this forum is helping to strengthen my doubt on the official explanation.

of course, the more evidence presented showing there is no conspiracy just means the conspiracy is that much deeper than you originally thought

[gtc]

Maybe Google Earth can help here.

I am pretty sure it shows cars inside the Pentagon, but I don't have time to check today.

Don't be too hard on TT777 on this point. It is not an unreasonable assumption that parking signs would be on the outside of the building. However, given the number of times photos from the outside have been shown, it is an uninformed comment.

[Pardalis]

of course, the more evidence presented showing there is no conspiracy just means the conspiracy is that much deeper than you originally thought

Exactly. It a long spiraling road down paranoia you're heading on TT777...

[David Wong]

Is it possible that the impact of the plane propelled that sign from the exterior of the building, causing it to stick to the wall inside?

[defaultdotxbe]

Is it possible that the impact of the plane propelled that sign from the exterior of the building, causing it to stick to the wall inside?

well that IS an outside wall, its just the inside outside (or the outside inside?)

anyway its not where it the plane hit, its where a peice ofthe plane came back out

[kevin]

Google maps has some pretty high res satellite photos of the pentagon.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=61.928102,105.820313&q=pentagon&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=38.87088,-77.055788&spn=0.004202,0.006813&t=k&om=1

If you zoom in you can clearly see cars in the center, plus observe the fact that cars will fit between the rings (although I don't see any, probably because there is apparently no parking allowed).

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Maybe Google Earth can help here.

I am pretty sure it shows cars inside the Pentagon, but I don't have time to check today.

Don't be too hard on TT777 on this point. It is not an unreasonable assumption that parking signs would be on the outside of the building. However, given the number of times photos from the outside have been shown, it is an uninformed comment.

These look like full-sized dumpsters to me; ergo they need to be able to get vehicles in there to haul them off:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/ArkanWolfshade/dumpsters_in_pentagon.jpg

[Pardalis]

Google maps has some pretty high res satellite photos of the pentagon.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=61.928102,105.820313&q=pentagon&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=38.87088,-77.055788&spn=0.004202,0.006813&t=k&om=1

If you zoom in you can clearly see cars in the center, plus observe the fact that cars will fit between the rings (although I don't see any, probably because there is apparently no parking allowed).

Yep

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/88864505fe5b9db05.png

[Dog Town]

Ever heard of a Cushman? Those outside alleys are quite large. They even use the Cushmans( think Golf cart) indoors! You must have missed that!

[T.A.M.]

I personally wasnt being hard on him at all. My point was I think he is more of a fence sitter or an inquirer than a CTist, simply because he made the honest mistake of thinking the exit hole was the entrance hole. That is why I provided the pics, as other have.

TAM:D

[kevin]

check the center of the pentagon and there are clearly cars there.

Further, from the sizes of the roofs, the corridors on the map are shown way too small, you could drive a large truck down one of the corridors.

[gumboot]

Ever heard of a Cushman? Those outside alleys are quite large. They even use the Cushmans( think Golf cart) indoors! You must have missed that!

That's awesome. I want to work at the Pentagon just so I can drive a golf cart indoors. I'll join the Logistics Corps or something.

-Andrew

[Dog Town]

That's awesome. I want to work at the Pentagon just so I can drive a golf cart indoors. I'll join the Logistics Corps or something.

-Andrew

Hey they hunted on horse back inside what is now the Louvre!

[hellaeon]

TT777, you can clearly see that you can drive a vehicle between the walls from the picture of the same area that TAM put up and these other pictures. But you could not from a picture that has no dimensional measurements. Im unsure how you can make that assumption without those dimensions, however the pictures suggests quite clearly that there is more then enough room.

You do now realise the hole is not what you thought?

Also, what other aspects of 9/11 makes you think the US government planned it?

All the CT aspects have been heavily documented as distortions of fact, but we can perhaps help clear up a few, without hostilities.

Cheers

[Bell]

Could also be an inside joke by the the people within the government who planned the 9/11 attack?

DC: No parking -> including planes
NY: Don't litter -> including plane engines

[/sarcasm]

[David Wong]

That's awesome. I want to work at the Pentagon just so I can drive a golf cart indoors. I'll join the Logistics Corps or something.



Dirt bike! You think they'd let me ride my dirk bike in there? Like if I had a note from my doctor or something?

[apathoid]

Dirt bike! You think they'd let me ride my dirk bike in there? Like if I had a note from my doctor or something?

Is your dirt bike electric? :D

[Regnad Kcin]

No, that's just one of many.Will you concede that the opening post photo reveals the exit (not the entrance) hole?

And I would like to add that visiting this forum is helping to strengthen my doubt on the official explanation.That's a curious statement.

In any event, welcome to the forum.

[Metullus]

As a young lad I visted the Pentagon several times. It is what one might with reason call a large building. The areas between the rings are not small, plenty large enough for vehicles to navigate, and they do.

[TruthSeeker1234]

the C-ring exit hole is very puzzling.
http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3030&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1158016798
The PM guys tonight in the debate said it was caused by landing gear, earlier the story was the fuselage did it. Either way, it's odd. Making a well defined round hole in a reinforced masonary wall is extremely difficult. Try taking a round headed hammer to any kind of masonary and see if you can punch a round hole in it.

This is strongly suggestive of a shaped charge, which indeed can cut round holes. If a plane part did cut this hole, then it would remain relatively intact, having gotten the better of the collision. If so, where is it?

[defaultdotxbe]

The PM guys tonight in the debate said it was caused by landing gear, earlier the story was the fuselage did it.
the story was always that it was caused by the nose landing gear, one spokesman said it was the nose, but it seems liekly he was just misinterpreting "nose gear"

Making a well defined round hole in a reinforced masonary wall is extremely difficult. Try taking a round headed hammer to any kind of masonary and see if you can punch a round hole in it.
this wall doesnt appear to be reinforced, it seems to be stucco over brick, take a sledge hammer to stucco, it leave a nice sledge hammer shaped hole

kinda funny though, alot of CTers complain the hole on the front of the pentagon isnt a perfect punchout of a plane, but then they complain the hole in the AE drive wall is "too perfect"

If a plane part did cut this hole, then it would remain relatively intact, having gotten the better of the collision. If so, where is it?
right on the other side of that debris pile is a wheel from the nose gear, you can see it to the right of ther worker in this pic

http://69.57.144.30/ats/pentagon757/trou1moyenne.jpg

[gumboot]

the C-ring exit hole is very puzzling.
http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3030&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1158016798
The PM guys tonight in the debate said it was caused by landing gear, earlier the story was the fuselage did it.


Oh come on! At least try! Where do you think the undercarriage of an airliner goes when it is retracted?




Either way, it's odd. Making a well defined round hole in a reinforced masonary wall is extremely difficult.


Yes that's right, it's a well defined hole. And the WTC fell into its own footprint. There's clearly no debris on the Pentagon lawn, and the WTC fell in 9 seconds. Oh and the WTC collapses looked just like controlled demolition. Any other "obvious" truths you'd like to share?



Try taking a round headed hammer to any kind of masonary and see if you can punch a round hole in it.


I'm sorry, are you comparing the flaming wreckage of a 757 travelling at 500 MPH with a person swinging a hammer? Dear lord.



This is strongly suggestive a shaped charge, which indeed can cut round holes. If a plane part did cut this hole, then it would remain relatively intact, having gotten the better of the collision. If so, where is it?

Huntsman!

-Andrew

[jsiv]

For those that still think there is no room to drive inside the Pentagon:

[MRC_Hans]

This is strongly suggestive of a shaped charge, which indeed can cut round holes.

Please! Try not to be silly, OK? A shaped charge blows a hole that is somewhat smaller than the size of the charge, and it produces a supersonic, high temperature jet of material that continues on through most obstacles. Are you implying that somebody put a 20ft diameter shaped charge against a wall of the Pentagon and fired it :eye-poppi ? Are you aware of the effects such a blast would have?


...... No, I expected not. You are just grasping at straws.

:nope:

Hans

[jsiv]

Can someone explain to me why They didn't just fly an actual airliner into the Pentagon like the official investigation says happened?

Wouldn't that be pretty close to the perfect crime? I believe the Israeli government has several 757s that could have been used.

Why, TT777 and TruthSeeker1234, does the conspiracy theory have to be so convoluted?

[apathoid]

the C-ring exit hole is very puzzling.

The PM guys tonight in the debate said it was caused by landing gear, earlier the story was the fuselage did it. Either way, it's odd. Making a well defined round hole in a reinforced masonary wall is extremely difficult. Try taking a round headed hammer to any kind of masonary and see if you can punch a round hole in it.

This is strongly suggestive of a shaped charge, which indeed can cut round holes. If a plane part did cut this hole, then it would remain relatively intact, having gotten the better of the collision. If so, where is it?

I'm a little late and you've been thoroughly dismantled here, but a couple of points.

First off, its logically insane for the perps to blow a suspicious looking cruise missile shaped hole in the building for no reason. I even caught Killtown musing that it makes ZERO sense for the hole to be staged any way you look at it.

However, there is evidence that the hole was created by the nose gear and then improved for rescue/firefighting ops. Check out this photo:

http://69.57.144.30/ats/pentagon757/trou1moyenne.jpg

...and you'll see the nose wheel just "behind" the firefighter.

Now look at this picture and see if you can spot anything which could indicate that the hole was enlarged/improved:

Curious Punchout Photo (http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6048/p20003214bu.jpg )

[MRC_Hans]

They can't make up their minds. We see a reconstruction of the last leg of the flight, taken from the Flight Data Recorder found in the wreckage at the Pentagon, and they moan about the apparant skill of the pilot (which is btw not very apparant, if you know a little bit about flying), then they say it is too high to hit the poles on the way in.

Next thing there wasn't a plane there after all.

Worst of all, it is all so flaming silly. If the evil government wanted an excuse for making war (and I frankly don't think they minded getting one at all), and needed to fake it, why on Earth would they pull something as silly as this? All they needed was to drive up a truckfull of explosives and set it off, like everybody was expecting terrorrists to do.

I mean, if your CT requires the culprit to be a total idiot, and still pull off the most complex conspiracy in history, isn't it time to have another think?

Hans

[apathoid]

Can someone explain to me why They didn't just fly an actual airliner into the Pentagon like the official investigation says happened?

Wouldn't that be pretty close to the perfect crime? I believe the Israeli government has several 757s that could have been used.

Why, TT777 and TruthSeeker1234, does the conspiracy theory have to be so convoluted?

"Truth"seeker1234 doesnt understand logic. He doesnt understand that there is no way the guvmint would fly a cruise missile over a densely trafficked interstate, during rush hour, in broad daylight into the Pentagon and then claim it was airliner. That these morons(apologies to morons everywhere) actually think the cruise missile idea would get off the drawing board is telling(to anyone with an 90+ IQ).

Oh and actually the USAF has 6 757s(C-32s), no need for any JOOOO planes. And if they didnt want to part with a 757, they couldve used one of the Navy or Air Forces 100+ 737-700s. No need for a cruise missile. Sorry "truth"seeker, the idea of a missile may be "fun" to you, but there is ZERO evidence for one.

[kevin]

This is strongly suggestive of a shaped charge, which indeed can cut round holes.

What picture are you looking at? the one I'm looking at does not show a round hole.

[WildCat]

Any hole caused by blunt force rather than cutting produces a roughly circular hole. The reason is that the force dissipates as a function of distance from the impact point, thus the circular hole produced.

Anr the outside wall is simply masonry, inside is just plaster over wire mesh. No reinforced concrete here.

[dissonance]

So, let's say the government planned this whole thing. They're going to destroy the twin towers, killing thousands of people.

Why would they bother also blowing up part of the Pentagon??? What, collapsing the twin towers isn't enough, somehow? And if, for whatever insane reason, they wanted to target something in Washington, wouldn't blowing up the Whitehouse have been a much more logical choice? Or fly a few planes into other tall buildings in other cities. That would make more sense from a 'get the American public whipped up into a frenzy' perspective.

These CTs are so fundamentally stupid just on a basic level, even before you get into the science.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

the C-ring exit hole is very puzzling.
http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3030&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1158016798
The PM guys tonight in the debate said it was caused by landing gear, earlier the story was the fuselage did it. Either way, it's odd. Making a well defined round hole in a reinforced masonary wall is extremely difficult. Try taking a round headed hammer to any kind of masonary and see if you can punch a round hole in it.

This is strongly suggestive of a shaped charge, which indeed can cut round holes. If a plane part did cut this hole, then it would remain relatively intact, having gotten the better of the collision. If so, where is it?

Please read through this: http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf
If you have questions afterward please bring them up citing the page in the report you have the question on.

[gumboot]

So, let's say the government planned this whole thing. They're going to destroy the twin towers, killing thousands of people.

Why would they bother also blowing up part of the Pentagon??? What, collapsing the twin towers isn't enough, somehow?


Two Americans stand gazing at the smoking wreckage of what used to be the World Trade Centre.

Guy: You know, I'm really pissed. I can't believe a bunch of terrorists did this.
Girl: Tell me about it.
Guy: But, you know, there's 250 million of us, and they've only killed a few thousand civilians. Smoking kills far more.
Girl: Very true.
Guy: It'd be nice to get back at the people that did this, but we'd probably end up killing a lot of civlians in the process.
Girl: You're right. Collateral damage and all. Revenge would be nice, but I mean, is it worth it? They only killed 3,000. It's just a couple of skyscrapers.

A small boy hurries up to them.

Boy: Hey did you just here? They crashed a plane into The Pentagon! They reckon just over a hundred military personnel are dead! A small chunk of the building is destroyed.

There is a brief stunned silence.

Guy: They hit THE PENTAGON??? :mad: Those mother[rule8]'s! It's time to pay.
Girl: Damn straight! Let's nuke the [rule8's] What country they from anyway?
Guy: Who CARES? Let's just level the entire Middle East! They kill a hundred military personnel and DAMAGED The Pentagon? Let's kill us some Towel-Heads!
Girl: Right behind you!

-Andrew

[gfunkusarelius]

i think i know the answer to this question, but when i see people so determined to believe the "evidence" that is so widely debunked, i wonder if they even watch any of the numerous shows that explain so much of this stuff from so many different witnesses, experts, etc, or if they just stick there head in the sand when good info comes up and prefer to look at statements, images and videos out of context on the internet...

i dont see how you could stay passionate about a huge coverup theory when you see all the people that were affected. i mean i dont give eyewitnesses and anecdotes much weight in scientific research, but there are certainly enough independent accounts to back up scientific reasoning that it should take the wind out of these peoples sails if they were intellectually honest

btw nice job apathoid...loved the picture you linked to. i dont know for sure that what you are suggesting is true, but it is so much more logical than the theory that a shaped charge caused the hole that i dont see how someone could assume the latter.

[Hutch]

Why would they bother also blowing up part of the Pentagon??? What, collapsing the twin towers isn't enough, somehow? And if, for whatever insane reason, they wanted to target something in Washington, wouldn't blowing up the Whitehouse have been a much more logical choice? Or fly a few planes into other tall buildings in other cities. That would make more sense from a 'get the American public whipped up into a frenzy' perspective.

Ah, but don't you know, that was where we were hiding all those records of the $23 trillion (or something like that) that the Pentagon had lost over the years and the Bush administration (who had yet to submit their first Defense budget) wanted to get rids of the incriminating evidence..) :boggled:

Or if you don't like that one, just let your mind shut down and I am sure you can come up with one the CT'ers would like even better...:cool:

[Class]

The picture we are talking about got me banned from the LC forums. JDX tried to argue that the front landing gear were a thin piece of metal and was wondering how it could make such a large, round hole. I mentioned to him that he forgot about the wheels on the landing gear and I showed him a picture of the front landing gear in the Pentagon.

Two minutes later, post deleted. I expected such an action, so I copied the whole thing and then reposted it with the addition of "Hey JDX delete more of my posts".

Two minutes later I am banned.:rolleyes:

[T.A.M.]

I believe apathoid hit the nail on the head.

I recall reading somewhere that the original hole was too small for rescue workers, so the widened it, and what you see there is the smooth appearance of the literally" cut out hole.

AM I correct? I am pretty sure? anyone else want to add, or have a link confirming what I read to this effect.

TAM

[WildCat]

I believe apathoid hit the nail on the head.

I recall reading somewhere that the original hole was too small for rescue workers, so the widened it, and what you see there is the smooth appearance of the literally" cut out hole.

AM I correct? I am pretty sure? anyone else want to add, or have a link confirming what I read to this effect.

TAM
Maybe someone could contact some of the fire departments that responded and ask if the hole was made larger?

[Bell]

Maybe someone could contact some of the fire departments that responded and ask if the hole was made larger?

That would be like an actually investigation.

You could also Google "Pentagon + hole" and present that as your evidence. No need to talk to people who actual where on the scene.