I have, what i think, is a philosophy / evolution, question..

[De_Bunk]

I cannot think of anywhere else to post this other than the R&P forum...

Anyway...( I may have posed this thought before..)

Rats on a sinking ship...

The ship is going down..

Now bearing in mind that Rats use pure instinct to live...some begin to jump off...some stay..

Now the Rat knows, full well, it cannot live in water..

Which in turn means the Rat knows it is committing suicide...

Yet...base instinct in animals, is to survive at all costs...

They can see there is no land in sight...

But they can swim..and they know that fact...

But...why do they try to run to the highest point before jumping in..they are clearly not afraid of water....and why do some of them just stay there..not jumping in...right upto the point where they begin floating...

Now relate that to humans....

There is a total similarity to behaviour...in the same circumstances..

But we are far more intelligent than a Rat...

Do they believe in some kind of "Rat Heaven"..???

Do they know something we don't...????

This is going round and around in my head...

Think its simple to answer...think again..there are a load of points that lead to others...more deep than the last..

Think hard...

No Rat would voluntary commit suicide...and yet some willingly throw themselves in...even though they cannot see land...which they know, through instinct, is where they can survive.....and some stay until the last minute...are there "Believer" rats who think they are going to a better place....and "Skeptic" rats...who cling onto life, knowing full well that jumping in the sea will lead to non-existence...

Is there any difference in their behaviour, to humans in the same situation...???

But surely we are totally different..and far more intelligent than Rats..???


DB

( Ps..No flames...No BS...Not from me on the R&P forum...)

[Skeptical Greg]

The rats don't know the ship is sinking.

They just know that water is rising around them and they are retreating to dry land as long as possible, because they prefer dry to wet....

Sorry I couldn't be more philosophical...:(

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I'm skeptical that rats jump off sinking ships.

~~ Paul

[Dymanic]

I think we're talking about two different levels of responses.

One is the product of hard-wired (instinctual) behavior. It is triggered by crisis, and relies on simple strategies such as: "Run!", which can be implemented quickly, and which have a good chance of being effective in a wide range of situations. By definition, this type of response is 'not very well thought out', and will frequently produce poor results.

The other is the product of more careful consideration of the details of a situation, and examination of possible alternative responses. This can be implemented only if the instinctive response can be held at bay. The more threatening the situation, the greater the pressure to quickly formulate a response. The ability to 'keep cool' under pressure is what enables some to excell at certain activities like rock climbing or race car driving, which tend to push the instinctive buttons a lot.

I would expect rats to rely a lot less on the latter than humans, and some humans a lot less than others.
I also question whether rats would actually jump ship any sooner than forced to. This notion probably originates with the fact that the sudden appearance of rats on the deck of a ship may be the first indication that there is flooding in the lower levels.

I seriously doubt that rats on a sinking ship are giving any thought whatsoever to an afterlife.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by De_Bunk
Which in turn means the Rat knows it is committing suicide...



That's a leap in rat logic

[De_Bunk]

Ok..

I have seen rats leaving a sinking ship...

Therefore...

Why are they jumping to a certain doom...they know that they dont live in the sea...

They know they cannot possibly survive..

They cannot see land, even though a rats eyesight is excellent..

They must do... because some hold back from jumping until the last moment...

Its not instinct to die "voluntarily"...and yet they willingly jump to their deaths...whilst some hold back until the last moment...

I dont know what i mean here....but somewhere there is a vailid point...

I just don't know what the pertinent point, actually is...

Nothing willingly commits itself to death...not a base animal such as a rat...

They have survival bred into them over millions of years..

I still need clarification...or im off at a tangent and thinking too deep again..

But...why...???

Why throw yourself to certain doom..., when a rat doesnt work on the same level as humans...It relies on instinct...

DB

[Skeptical Greg]

Why throw yourself to certain doom...,

Because the rat doesn't know it is certain....

Originally posted by Diogenes


Because the rat doesn't know it is certain....

Prove it?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Whodini


Prove it?

Will it help if I rephrase that?.....

" Because the rat doesn't know it is certain? "


Your turn....

[De_Bunk]

A Rat will not willingly commit itself to death...

Plain and simple...its not programmed to act like that...

Then why does it throw itself to a certain doom off a sinking ship...and why do others hang on till the last minute...

They aint stupid...they know they live on the land...so why jump, willingly, into something they must know they cannot live in...

DB

[Dymanic]

Originally posted by De_Bunk

I have seen rats leaving a sinking ship...
You've seen rats jumping from a sinking ship into the sea? Were you on board this ship?

I would assume that the rats were trying to save themselves, and simply made a questionable choice. I mean, panic a bunch of humans, and they will tend to scatter in all directions too (unless there is one obvious escape route). I'm thinking of the movie Titanic -- some of the people jumped, some hung on as long as they could. Actually, rats can swim pretty well when they have to. I wouldn't be all that surprised if some of them decided to take their chances in the water.

[Dancing David]

The certain doom is a human value, the rat knows that the water is rising, if it hangs on to the ship it will drown, the alternative is to swim.
Survival is not based upon certainty of outcome, there is a chance that Neoosh the Whale could come along and give the rat a ride, or that the tide will carry it somewhere.

Survival is immedeate not deterministic.

[De_Bunk]

A couple of questions answered...

Yes.... i have been in close proximity to a sinking ship...and i saw rats jumping in... and i also saw rats clinging to the last hope of life...

And..

Dancing David...

Good answer...

DB

[triadboy]

A better stumper is the soldier who dives on a grenade.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by De_Bunk
Then why does it throw itself to a certain doom off a sinking ship...and why do others hang on till the last minute...
DB
This difference in behaviour is probably related to differences in temperment. Some rats are more willing to expierement than other rats: some are better at going thru mazes than other ones.

Here's one for you, DeBunk: If you take a rat, and put him in a bucket, and let him swim until he simply can't do it anymore, and just as is about to drown, you pull him out: if you do this once a day for several days: the rat will start giving up sooner and sooner. He learns that swimming is futile, and so he stops trying so hard. He learns this so well that he will actually drown in far less time than you have already shown he can swim for. The rat will give up in drown in 2 minutes when you know he can swim for 5, because he did it last week.

[Dancing David]

Thats really unethical research Yahzi!
Don't you have to wait for the rat to drown to make the test in the final analysis.

Alternate: The rat will go to the bottom, see that he isn't being rescued and begins to swim some more.

[De_Bunk]

Dancing David

I agree..

The base instinct in all animals is to live...even an Ant runs away like greased lightning, if you touch it...

I still maintain that an animal, such as a Rat, relies on its base instinct...and that instinct is too never give up...

Ever seen a rat get cornered by a dog...The rat fights real hard...to the death...

Why....it clearly knows that the dog is a predator...and far, far larger...

Why fight...??


DB

[Graham]

Originally posted by De_Bunk
Dancing David

I agree..

The base instinct in all animals is to live...even an Ant runs away like greased lightning, if you touch it...

I still maintain that an animal, such as a Rat, relies on its base instinct...and that instinct is too never give up...

Ever seen a rat get cornered by a dog...The rat fights real hard...to the death...

Why....it clearly knows that the dog is a predator...and far, far larger...

Why fight...??


DB

I would suggest two answers:

1) Temprement or general bad-assedness. Some of us are just ornery and would prefer to go down fighting just out of sheer meanness and a desire to make the other fella suffer. I see no reason why the same shouldn't be true of some rats.

Incidentally, I think a proportion of rats would just give up and die, just as there are plenty of humans who would do the same.

2) There's always the possibility that, if you get in even one good blow, the enemy will lose interest and back off. This is what hedgehogs rely on, for instance. Given time and determination, a dog can make mincemeat out of a hedgehog but very few dogs will continue to try once they've had a noseful of spikes.

Graham

[MRC_Hans]

Mmmm, a few observations:

Rats are actually amfibious animals, that is, their natural habitat is near water, and spending a lot of time IN water, they are excellent swimmers, and can cover large distances swimming. They are even quite good divers. So jumping into water is not suicidal for a rat, even if it cannot see the shore. Rats have good eyesight, but from the normal vantage point of a rat, the effective horizon is never far away, so it might not be ominous for it that the far shore is not in sight.

As to why some jump in while some stay on: Well, it could be a question of choosing between two fairly equal alternatives; to try to swim away (confident of its excellent swimming ability) or to stick on and wait and see (after all, as someone mentioned, the rat does not KNOW the ship is sinking, it just knows the water is rising). The difference in choice may be due to individual preference and condition. An animal that feels in good shape migh more readily opt for a swim than one that is sick or weak.

Hans

[Bentspoon]

This is one I always argue with my girlfriend abdout her cat.

I ask her if you put a bow on her cat, will it feel pretty?

The point of that statement is that she is personifying her cat. She often says that cat is getting back at her by not using the cat box and she actually believes this. Revenge of the cat.

I point out that the cat acts on instinct and conditioning - not reason and rational evaluation.

Same thing here - you are trying to define rat behavior by personifying rats and giving them human qualities. Committing suicide? the question is ludicrous.

Bentspoon

[justsaygnosis]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans


As to why some jump in while some stay on: Well, it could be a question of choosing between two fairly equal alternatives; to try to swim away (confident of its excellent swimming ability) or to stick on and wait and see (after all, as someone mentioned, the rat does not KNOW the ship is sinking, it just knows the water is rising). The difference in choice may be due to individual preference and condition. An animal that feels in good shape migh more readily opt for a swim than one that is sick or weak.

Hans

Agreed, I live near the ocean and both wharf rats and muskrats swim around readily.
Several of the tidal rivers in Rhode Island are less than a mile wide at many points and not only rats but deer, racoon and other critters are in the bay and rivers.
Depending on its' life experience it may have lived through heavy rains that flooded its' surroundings and swim to safety whereas the others who stayed on until the ship sank had no such memory.
If I could figure out what animals were actually thinking I'd be hosing people BIG TIME as an animal psychologist.
Wait a minute most animal psychologists ARE already hosing people big time.
Oh Sylvia you may have a new profession to enter after Randi pins you down on your acceptance of the challenge.

[jimlintott]

We know rats are an excellent survivor. If all the rats behaved the same then they wouldn't have lasted this long. Diverse behaviour is important.

I suppose that like humans each rat believes or hopes that their solution will work. Why do some people jump from a burning building while others cling on and burn?

Man is not as far removed from the animal world as he thinks.

[De_Bunk]

Then, it appears, the rat isn't committing suicide, therefore it must know exactly what it is doing.

IE..."Im too sick to jump in"..

But...given the rat knows what it is doing, it must know that it will die if it does not reach land. It jumps in without seeing land. I cannot see a rat having the rationality to gamble on a "life or death" decision, and yet it displays some of these qualities. Some stay, some jump

If rats jump in because they think they are good swimmers, even though they cannot see land, then they are stupid and uncalculating.

Uncalculating animals, with no sense of survival, are soon extinct.

Rats have proved their intelligence time and time again.

( A side note...off subject, but odd...

I read a magazine that claimed "Frogs" cover their eyes when they think they are abut to die...I thought it to be total garbage, but a couple of days later, i saw my cat tormenting a frog.
I walked over, scared the cat off and saw the frog had both its little legs covering it eyes....100% true...Im assuming that the frog was instinctively protecting its eyesight, but nonetheless it had the "Awwww" factor..)

DB

[woodguard]

Maybe the rat has faith there is land out there?
Land it cannot see?

Beats dying with the other going down with the ship with no hope.

[Akots]

I hereby interrupt this thread to bring you this picture of a cute little frog.

http://photoarchive.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/6409/6409450.jpg
Ribbit!

I remember once hearing about how some herd animals, when presented with the option to remain motionless or flee a predator, will just sort of get an instinctive lock-up or something, and do something completely unrelated; like groom, or paw the ground, or something like that.

Reminded me about how people stereotypically scratch their head, or rummage in their pockets, or whatnot, when presented with a difficult decision...

[De_Bunk]

Woodguard..

So far we have established that rats know what they are doing, but yet, they are stupid enough to jump into the sea without seeing land, and some cling to the last hope of life.

Rats have always been the great survivor throughout evolution, they were here before us, in the same form, and that shows flexibility, intelligence and excellent instinctive survival skills.

They eat, what we eat, and more. They can survive on practically nothing, and yet always find food. They have excellent eyesight / hearing and have shown they can understand complex puzzles. They are quick learners and if there is a reward at the end, they will "Press the button" ASAP.

Therefore they must know they are throwing theirselves to their deaths.

That goes against all instinct, especially in rats, that are known for their "Survival" skills.

This is not just a case of "Im gonna blindly jump in, because i dont know anything else"

There must be some rational, calculating thinking, because some jump and some don't. No animal is truly capable of going against its instinctive behaviour. From the lowest "virus cell" to "mankind"

To willingly commit yourself to death, when there is no other way, requires a rational, calculating mind. Therefore,

1) Rats know something we don't.

Or

2) Rats reason the situation, similar to humans.

Me, personally, would not jump from a building. My instinct to survive is too strong. I would run through the flames / smoke until i could, no longer. I will not sumbit to death as willingly as a rat does.

DB

[MRC_Hans]

DB, rats are smart for animals, but we should not attribute human thought patterns to them. They are survivors and have been here for long, but so have shellfish...

Lie down and put an eye some two inches above the ground. How far can you see, how far away is your "horizon"? In most places less that ten meters. That is the viewpoint of a rat. The naturals habitat of rats are rivers, lakes, wetlands, and when near humans, sewers, basements, ship's holds. What I'm getting at is this: It is normal procedure for a rat to jump into water and expect to be able to swim to the "far shore" even if it can't see it. I expect they simply don't worry about it. I don't think an animal, at least not a rat, thinks that far ahead at all; it does not plan and weigh available options and their odds, it looks at the familiar element water, weighs it against the exposed position out in the open on the ship, and makes a decision.

Finally, for it to choose suicide, it must know that the ship will sink, and how can it know that? Of course, it knows that something is wrong with the ship (water rising in the hold), but how should a rat be able to infer that this means that the ship will soon sink?

Hans

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by De_Bunk
I cannot think of anywhere else to post this other than the R&P forum...

Anyway...( I may have posed this thought before..)

Rats on a sinking ship...

The ship is going down..

Now bearing in mind that Rats use pure instinct to live...some begin to jump off...some stay..

Now the Rat knows, full well, it cannot live in water..

Which in turn means the Rat knows it is committing suicide...

Yet...base instinct in animals, is to survive at all costs...

They can see there is no land in sight...

But they can swim..and they know that fact...

But...why do they try to run to the highest point before jumping in..they are clearly not afraid of water....and why do some of them just stay there..not jumping in...right upto the point where they begin floating...

Now relate that to humans....

There is a total similarity to behaviour...in the same circumstances..

But we are far more intelligent than a Rat...

Do they believe in some kind of "Rat Heaven"..???

Do they know something we don't...????

This is going round and around in my head...

Think its simple to answer...think again..there are a load of points that lead to others...more deep than the last..

Think hard...

No Rat would voluntary commit suicide...and yet some willingly throw themselves in...even though they cannot see land...which they know, through instinct, is where they can survive.....and some stay until the last minute...are there "Believer" rats who think they are going to a better place....and "Skeptic" rats...who cling onto life, knowing full well that jumping in the sea will lead to non-existence...

Is there any difference in their behaviour, to humans in the same situation...???

But surely we are totally different..and far more intelligent than Rats..???


DB

( Ps..No flames...No BS...Not from me on the R&P forum...)
Ow... ow... ow ow ow... I feel some kind of popping behind my eyes. Ow. But aside from that being one of the questions with the most questionable thought processes behind it, I think that its based on the rats personality. I should know, I have 3 rats (Rocko, Phil, and Cloey) and they dont at all like soulless automotons who all think and act alike. Rats are fairly more intelligent animals in the rodent world. One of my rats likes to climb all over people, another one doesnt really like moveing around, and the last one is deathly afraid of heights and people in general. So I think that if I ever took my rats and placed them on a ship, they would probabaly have different reactions to the stimulus of "about to die"... I think my wife would also murder me with a shovel if I killed the rats.

Here is how I know my rats are intelligent. When I put them in the terrarium they crawled through the tubes, dug through the cedar, and finally they picked one spot in their terrarium where they would piss and defecate... so they piss and defecate only in that spot (and as luck would have it, everywhere else in the cage as well).

As far as survival instincts go, I have 3 cats. They would each gladly eat the rats. The rats dont know that. Maybe it never clicked in for them to stay away from that thing with the fangs and claws.

I'm starting to think that using my own pets wasnt the best idea.

[De_Bunk]

You see my point...

Right then...We have decided thast rats can have personality, they can make pertinent decisions and are intelligent.

But it appears that they have no sense of direction, or knowledge that they are at sea, or the fact that they are surrounded by water and have not seen land in days.

But it seems that some do understand that they cannot live, for long, in water and they hold back until the last moment.

What else..???

DB

[Yahweh]

Honesty De_Bunk... I really fail to see how the original question has to do with anything. Ok, we've successfully concluded that rats sometimes will and sometimes wont hop into the water when a ship is going down. I'm pretty sure the rat knows that it cant breathe under the water. I dont understand what your original supa-Phylozofyin question asks. What the hell are you talking about? Are far as the will to live on a sinking ship goes, I think its all a matter of when the rat decides that staying on the boat is futile. Sure, you had your question and you had full intentions of starting some kind of philosophical answerings... you need to find a better question. Instead ask whether a about human's survival instincts kidnapped and dumped in a forest (fine, you find a more likely scenario), does he stay and wait for help or does he aimlessly pick a direction and go with it, when does he decide that staying results in death, is it faith or logic to stay/leave? Those are the kind of questions that might be easier to answer... not to mention they add that whole human element that makes it easier to relate to than "rat heaven". By the way there is a "rat heaven". The ground is paved bird food to eat, there are thousands of running wheels, the water bottles are filled with the finest Evian, the light is a nice dim ambient blue, and rats are 100 feet tall. There is no rat hell for all the truely evil rats that die get reincarnated back on earth as flowers because flowers are pretty and they smell good.