A political question for Star Trek: TNG buffs

[gnome]

In the first episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Data mentions a New United Nations edict from 2036 which declares: "No Earth citizen can be made to answer for the crimes of their race or forbears."

Those of us that are Trekkies, Trekkers, Trek fanatics, or "enthusiasts" if fan is too strong a word... whatever you want to call yourself... when you heard this, did you think it was a good idea, and do you still?

If you accept such a doctrine, should it (morally speaking, since it is a fictional law) apply to current issues such as reparations for slavery?

The question occurred to me because I mentally cheered when Data cited the ruling, but continue to mull over the fairness and possible approaches to the reparations issue. Are these inconsistent points of view?

Am I revealing myself as a total geek for even mixing Trek talk and current politics? :D

[aerocontrols]

I don't look to Star Trek for help with political questions.

Even a little bit.

[c0rbin]

The idea of reparation is ludicrous.

Didn't fellow tribesfolk sell their own to the European slave movers?

----

Edited to add:

Geordi La Forge and Kunta Kinta from Roots--my Star Trek geek connection :)

[FFed]

I agree with the statement. The Indians in Canada do nothing but talk about all the crimes that were commited to them a century ago. It was not my fault, and I had nothing to do with it, yet I am still supposed to pay for all the so called crimes of the past. It will never end.

[gnome]

I wasn't exactly proposing a general thread about reparations... just an examination of the two competing ideas. If you automatically reject the idea of reparations of any kind, and aren't especially interested in Trek politics, I suggest this thread will probably bore and annoy you and can be safely ignored.

[Tmy]

Sounds like the rule would apply in a situation where, say an Englishman was walking around Argentina. And was captured and punished because of the Falken Island conflict.

Reparations arent about punishing people but repayment to make a wrong party whole. If someone totals your car you are not punishing them by making them pay for the damage.

As for Star Trek. I always wonder why they never used seat belts?? On direct hit and they go flying across the bridge!!

[FFed]

Originally posted by Tmy

As for Star Trek. I always wonder why they never used seat belts?? On direct hit and they go flying across the bridge!!
On the original Star Trek the chairs aren't even bolted down. I noticed once when Chekov fell over the chair went with him. Why not just use lawn chairs?

As for the topic, I am refering to acts that happened generations ago. Where does it all end? How many generations have to pass before things are ok?

[Underemployed]

On a related STNG political note, hasn't anyone noticed that despite all the gung-ho empiricism of Cap'n Kirk, The Federation is RUN BY COMMIES!

See Picard's response in 'First Contact' when asked how much the Enterprise costs...

[Tmy]

SO if nazi's plundered the jew's art and gold, and such items end up in museam years later, you don't think the original jew owners have a claim?

Another thing that bugs me about Star Trek. The ships sheilds. They never work! A couple of shots and they go down. Talk about a defective product. Starfleet ought to sue the sheild makers .

[Cecil]

Originally posted by Tmy
Reparations arent about punishing people but repayment to make a wrong party whole. If someone totals your car you are not punishing them by making them pay for the damage. That's not what we're talking about. Say tomorrow some guy named Bill shows up at your doorstep, claiming that 100 years ago your great-grandfather totalled his great-grandfather's car and never paid up. Bill's great-grandfather had to pay for the repairs to his car, and so his family suffered. Bill wants you to pay him $20,000, the cost of repairs plus inflation.

He's not trying to punish you, only "make a wrong party whole".

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Underemployed
On a related STNG political note, hasn't anyone noticed that despite all the gung-ho empiricism of Cap'n Kirk, The Federation is RUN BY COMMIES!

See Picard's response in 'First Contact' when asked how much the Enterprise costs...

I thought it was sort of a paramilitary governance.

[Aoidoi]

I don't know that they ever explain the actual composition of the Federation Goverment. Klingons have a sort of dictator arrangement, we see the Romulan Senate (implying some sort of representative republic) but we never seem to see the Federation Govt... Star Fleet is sort of arranged on military lines but that doesn't really represent the Federation (as far as I know).

I do remember the Next Generation saying that money was unnecessary... except that it turned out to be necessary to plots later on so they invented "gold press latinum" or some damn thing. Internal consistency is not the strong point of Trek.

Anyway, on the OP I generally consider it absurd to hold someone responsible for the actions of those they had no influence over... but then it does mean that if someone (or something) does something utterly dispicable and gets away with it long enough then it just sort of goes away. They win by longevity (or procreation). Like Stalin's pogroms... no one ever gets held accountable for them, and the people massacred are basically forgotten. Survivors are just SOL. Kind of a messy issue.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Cecil
That's not what we're talking about. Say tomorrow some guy named Bill shows up at your doorstep, claiming that 100 years ago your great-grandfather totalled his great-grandfather's car and never paid up. Bill's great-grandfather had to pay for the repairs to his car, and so his family suffered. Bill wants you to pay him $20,000, the cost of repairs plus inflation.

He's not trying to punish you, only "make a wrong party whole".

I think a better analogy would use a company.

Say the local Ford plant had polluted your drinking water. You then sue them for damage. They say "hey we're not responsible that was the Ford plant of two years ago. Everyone from that old plant has been fired its not our fault."

I'm not even saying that I agree with slave reparations. Mainly cause of the time lag and I fidn it impractical. BUt people get hung up on this "I didnt do it why should I pay". Its more of a shot to the goverment not the individual. Its not "Ok all white people will now be slaves to blacks."

[gnome]

Originally posted by Aoidoi
I don't know that they ever explain the actual composition of the Federation Goverment. Klingons have a sort of dictator arrangement, we see the Romulan Senate (implying some sort of representative republic) but we never seem to see the Federation Govt... Star Fleet is sort of arranged on military lines but that doesn't really represent the Federation (as far as I know).

The truly interested can look up a copy of the "Articles of Federation" in the classic "Star Trek Technical Manual"... assuming you're not bound by issues with canon, in which case there is no detailed answer.

I do remember the Next Generation saying that money was unnecessary... except that it turned out to be necessary to plots later on so they invented "gold press latinum" or some damn thing. Internal consistency is not the strong point of Trek.

I have always liked the idea that they run on some ingenious economy that nobody has even imagined yet. Where money doesn't exist per se... but lacking the problems of communism. One book excellently dodged the issue by having Spock declare that the new economy was "quite logical and intuitive once explained properly"... but challenged by his fellow crew admitted he HAD no simple explanation.

The "latinum" is something a race called the Ferengi use that are not part of the Federation, but the Federation has to get some in order to deal with them.

Anyway, on the OP I generally consider it absurd to hold someone responsible for the actions of those they had no influence over... but then it does mean that if someone (or something) does something utterly dispicable and gets away with it long enough then it just sort of goes away. They win by longevity (or procreation). Like Stalin's pogroms... no one ever gets held accountable for them, and the people massacred are basically forgotten. Survivors are just SOL. Kind of a messy issue.

It's a good detailed explanation of the dilemma, yes... but the idea that you're not responsible for your ancestors' crimes is a compelling thought. The alternative is kind of frightening.

[Advocate]

I have heard reparations for slavery called "taking money from people who never owned slaves, to pay people who never were slaves, for the crime of slavery." I would propose that while either the victim or the perpetrator was alive, reparations would make perfect sense. But to do anything generations later when everyone involved is dead seems like a good way to ensure an endless cycle of hatred and resentment. Also, making people responsible for the crimes of their ancestors seems like it would make them more likely to continue and/or repeat them since they are going to get blamed anyway.

As for the Federation economy, I don't think Roddenberry or the Trek writers intended the viewers to understand it any more than we were supposed to understand the physics of warp drive. It was just supposed to be better in all ways than we have today - a plot device to show how wonderful the Federation is. They seem to have all of socialism's benefits without any of its drawbacks, something frankly impossible as we understand it today. However, so is faster than light travel, so we shouldn't let that stop us in a fictional world.

[Kilted_Canuck]

Here in Canada, as said before, the First Nations and Metis people are given benefits that no other resident is given.
The government pays for almost all post-secondary education, plus here in Saskatchewan, First Nations people do not have to pay Provincial Sales Tax. I don't know whether this is fair or not that we have to pay, but when you hear about the schools, the modern day elders went to, I think it is less than an equal trade.(still weighted on us 'invader's' side)

[Hazelip]

Before this thread, I thought posting a theory that belly button lint held the secrets of the universe would have been the epitome of a waste of bandwidth.

I thank you wholeheartedly for proving me wrong.

[shemp]

What sort of economy do Pixie Faeries have?

What about forcing Leprechauns to pay reparations to the Irish for all their trickery?

Do voters in the spirit world have to worry about hanging chads?

[Advocate]

Originally posted by shemp
What sort of economy do Pixie Faeries have?

What about forcing Leprechauns to pay reparations to the Irish for all their trickery?

Do voters in the spirit world have to worry about hanging chads?

There are 2 topics here. One is a serious proposal that just happened to be mentioned on a TV show and unfortunately this fact was mentioned by the original poster. This concerns whether or not people should be held accountable for the actions of their ancestors. The other is a more frivolous topic as to whether there can be a rational explanation for a fictional economy.

[gnome]

If I might defend my OP... an arguably frivolous show brought up a very non-frivolous political proposal.

Since the show has such a large fan-base, I was probing for fan opinion on that political matter. My thought is that a good many of the show's fans have a generally liberal point of view, but that the proposal offered was often at odds with liberal philosophy. It seemed interesting to me how some of the fans might reconcile that idea.

If nobody's interested, well... go ahead and let the thread drop into obscurity, and never mind. :P