Pater Messiah Antichrist

[Pater]

Norway 09/13/06

Hi

My name is Ciprian Pater (Pater is my family name, see John 5:43)

I AM 27 years old on the 30th of November this year, I am a Swedish citizen born in Romania and currently living in Norway.

I would like to ask a some questions, in order for me to understand the
application process better before I eventually choose to apply for the
challenge.

There are some things which I could not get an explanation for by reading
the FAQ. These few questions deal with the nature of one of the accepted
abilities that JREF assumes to be worthy of defining as "Paranormal"

"The following things are paranormal by definition":

Precognition & Prophecy

-----------------------------

I would like to ask you, if you could possibly be so kind and explain to me
in which way/s JREF hopes or plans to be able to prove or disprove a persons claims of being able to set forth accurate and valid Prophecies?

As I myself understand that prophetical statements in most cases if taken as valid often repeat themselves with different consequences as a result
depending upon and in which Space-Time continuum they occur.

The reasons why I ask for a clear clarification to your procedures is
because I cannot imagine that any testing can be done in theory which allows for the "Time" factor to be accurately applied to the testing method if a "prophetical " statement dose in fact occur or not, "after" the given
time-span of preliminary tests etc.......

If JREF feel confident to be able to set forth a valid testing method that
allows for prophecies to be proven or disproved over a greater length of
time, then I am willing to apply to the Challenge with certain statements
that I will set forth in my application that I will conduct and send you
after this email correspondence.

To allow you to understand the correspondence nature of my claims
beforehand, I can explain to you now. That I most probably according to JREF will be classified as a delusional person and probably discredited before I even get to agree on the preliminary testing. Why do I believe this? It is a simple prediction I make due to JREF assumption that "no one who has applied has been able to come up with proof that is verifiable under controlled conditions to the existence of something spiritual or religious"

With that assumption I cannot imagine how you will manage to succeed in
verifying any prophetical statement of a Religious Nature, since I myself do
not see the lack of proof to be the problem in my case, but the testing
method itself to be incapable of acquiring proof even if there is any.

My statements in any case, will deal with the prophetical fulfilment of
Biblical prophecies, that I will set forth for fulfilment of the nature and
personage of the entity called the "Messiah" and that of the "Antichrist",
of which I claim openly to be both, in my own spirit, belief and physical
self!.

Mind you that this is a serious claim and I AM not a Jew by birth nor family faith!

Again; I AM the coming Messiah, not Jesus Christ, I AM the Antichrist, I AM
the Son Of Man...... This is a prophetical claim........

The above statement is not my prediction it is a Biblical prophecy wich few
people if any can comprehend, because if JREF do see itself able to prove or disprove any "specific" prophecies relating to these entities, then I will
claim to be able to provide a series or sets of prophecies which would be
able to be proven or disproved by the test procedures you decide upon.

Hence the issues I bring forth now, is because I wonder in which way you
would be able to outline any testing to be done towards my claims? I am no going "to great lengths to postulate why the existence of a higher power
cannot be demonstrated scientifically, and that puts such discussions out of
the scope of the Challenge." and I understand this, but I am not expecting
you to prove I AM, or that there even is a God either!

But I feel, that I am not wasting your time attempting to engage the JREF in
a debate over this issue before I apply for the challenge, because If you
claim to be able to put forth testing as to if, or if not "Prophecy" does
indeed exist. Then I see it as you obligation to conduct any whatsoever
testing you see fit to engage me in my prophetical accuracy or error, and
prove unto the world that I am wrong In my faith.

According to:

Webster's Online Dictionary

Prophecy
1. Knowledge of the future (usually said to be obtained from a divine
source).

2. A prediction uttered under divine inspiration.

" Prophecy or prediction, was one of the functions of the prophet. It has
been defined as a "miracle of knowledge, a declaration or description or
representation of something future, beyond the power of human sagacity to
foresee, discern, or conjecture." The great prediction which runs like a
golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament is that
regarding the coming and work of the Messiah; and the great use of prophecy was to perpetuate faith in his coming, and to prepare the world for that event. But there are many subordinate and intermediate prophecies also which hold an important place in the great chain of events which illustrate the sovereignty and all-wise overruling providence of God."

Hence, to even come close to be accepted by the Jews as their Messiah, one has to not only fulfil all the prophetical predictions concerning the
ministry of that entity, but also probably in this modern world also acquire
"proof" for the authenticity of that ministry.

The only way I can image this can be done, if you would wish to incorporate it in your testing procedures would be the studying of the frequency with which the Cohanim chromosome appears in various Jewish and non-Jewish populations worldwide.

I have learned that this specific chromosome would only be passed from
father to son. Also how this research has provided proof that the priesthood
established by Aaron probably did exist as the Torah details it and that
these DNA sequences that are nearly unique to Cohanim also exist within my body.

"The results of the DNA studies [of the Lemba people of South Africa] were
stunning: a significant portion of the Lemba Y chromosomes exhibit the
characteristic genetic signature found in the cohanim, including more than
50 percent of the Buba, one of the 12 Lemba clans. These markers have also turned up in the Bene Israel, the oldest Jewish community in India.".
The material I am referring to would be my own genes; in this case I
understand that surnames are fairly irrelevant. And that it would be a test
case for genetic research on a global level to see if the Y chromosome in my genes can be consistent with that patriarchal descent. I believe the
particular Y-chromosome type termed the 'Cohen modal haplotype,' which is known to be characteristic of the paternally inherited in Jewish priesthood, they so existed in my ancestors as well as it does in me.
It is thought more generally, to be a potential signature. The haplotype of
Judaic origin which exist in a few people other than Jews.
By comparison to the approximately 45 percent of Ashkenazi priests and 56
percent of Sephardic priests that have the Cohen genetic signature, compared to the Jewish populations in general where the frequency is 3 to 5 percent.

If you would decide that such testing would accompany my testing of
prophetical abilities, then I see it as your task to conduct such research
on my behalf and provide ways to develop a sure foundation on which the
testing could be done.

Among others offering this kind of DNA testing:
sites emailed to Kramer....
These would be able to provide proof for such claims beyond any doubt.

Hence, the issue as I see it is still, the problem relating to prophecies
concerning the Messiah & the Antichrist which are of the Nature of "Time" as known that without time there can be no change. If JREF would even come close to be able to set forth a testing method to prove or disprove any persons claim to his or hers right to the ministry of the Messiah.

Then I presume all the worlds attention would fall upon this Challenge, thus
not only get the attention of Paranormal believers or sceptics world wide.

I understand that lectures are being contracted, all over the world. Would
perhaps any of these lectures if held in the proximity of Norway offer a
chance for JREF to agree on a plan for the preliminary testing to test my
"Prophecies" here in Norway?

Thank you very much in advance for you reply and help to my questions.

Ciprian Pater

Tiriltunga 236
1259 Oslo
Norway

Phone 0047-97521288

[Gr8wight]

Yeah, but can you summon UFOs?

[rebecca]

Hi Pater,

Just to address a few points, I don't think you need to be worried over being discredited by the JREF in particular. The fact that no one has yet proven prophetic abilities isn't a put-down, it's just a fact. You might be the first!

Also, you wonder over how the JREF will design the test - that is to be decided on your end, in conjunction with the JREF. First you need to state clearly and exactly what your paranormal ability is, and then everyone can figure out a fair test. If you don't agree that the test is fair, it won't be used.

Testing your DNA is unlikely to be the way to go, since that wouldn't prove anything paranormal unless you have some kind of never-before-seen alien DNA. It's better to focus on what you claim you can do. If all you can do is make vague long-term predictions, it's unlikely that you can prove such a thing within the constraints of a test.

[Pater]

Gen 2:
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

By bringing every creature He created to the man to see 'what he {the man} would call them,' {Gen.1.19}. The word "CALL" {Yek Raw} means "to call" or "to summon" each creature. "Yek Raw" does NOT MEAN "TO NAME". So whatever "CALL" the man used to summon each creature to him became the creature's name by proclamation of God.

Ps according to my Gematria rules:

Father = 6+1+400+8+5+200 = 620
Adam = 1+4+1+40 = 46

See 666?

But no, I do not believe in UFOs or Intelligent life in the Universe, besides the existence of Mankind! One field of God in space time to prove his purpose is enough. for teh same cause one can understand that there is no Multiverse or other dimensions, if there were, there would not be a need for my faith in this world.

Look at the way we treat animals, and you wil have wisdom to know why Aliens if they were to exists, would never want to deal with Humanity!

Pater

[drkitten]

There are some things which I could not get an explanation for by reading
the FAQ. These few questions deal with the nature of one of the accepted
abilities that JREF assumes to be worthy of defining as "Paranormal"

"The following things are paranormal by definition":

Precognition & Prophecy


You seem to have understood this pretty well.



I would like to ask you, if you could possibly be so kind and explain to me
in which way/s JREF hopes or plans to be able to prove or disprove a persons claims of being able to set forth accurate and valid Prophecies?

Actually, that's your responsibility as the applicant.

In order for your application to be accepted, you need to be able to define both the success conditions and the failure conditions of your application. Basically, what will prove you to be correct, and (as importantly) what will prove you to be incorrect. And these should be sufficiently detailed that there will be room for disagreements over interpretation.

For example, the statement "I am the AntiChrist" is probably unacceptable, simply because it doesn't actually specify any observable events. Stating that "On or before 1 January 2010, I will burn up a third or more of the earth" is observable.

If you're the AntiChrist -- what does that actually mean?

[SkepticScott]

Welcome Pater!

Your claim to have validated a past prophecy isn't a paranormal claim. With all the books that have been publishes, I could probably find something in a book that I could claim to have fulfilled. For example, assume my parents are Al and Betty. I could find a book that had two characters, Al and Betty, who had a son Scott. I could claim that it was a valid prophecy, and that I've fulfilled it.

When the JREF talks about precognition and prophecy, they mean predicting specific future events. The prediction must not require interpretation. For instance, predicting the name of the first baby to be born in November in a certain hospital in Sweden is specific. Saying that the first baby born in November in a certain hospital in Sweden will be a "son of Samuel" is not. You'd have to look back through his/her ancestry to see if there's a "Sam", and how far back you go is subjective. Also, if any ancestor came from the state of Texas, U.S.A., you could claim that Texas is "Sam Houston's state" so the baby is a "son of Sam(uel)".

The reason for objectivity is so there's no need to judge. You either succeeded or you didn't.

That having said, what can you predict that can be tested? What can you do?

[petre]

Indeed, the selection of Precognition/Prophesy as the paranormal focus forces attention on future events. Since the near future quickly becomes the past, I'd suggest focusing a bit farther ahead. Given the JREF's current limitations, I'd say a period greater than 1 year from now, but less than 2 years from now, is the ideal period within which to make a claim.

You seem concerned that setting such bounds may cause an otherwise-accurate prediction to be considered a 'failure'. As the applicant, you can widen the range to stretch from the moment you declare a prediction until the end of time if you wish, though JREF may or may not accept such a range.

If you wish to have such a large range, your prediction will likely have to be very specific and very unlikely to occur at any time in the future. Perhaps a claim that the Detroit Lions will win 5 consecutive Super Bowls? (a sign of comming apocolypse to be sure).

As a start maybe you could make a single claim, and we could examine its likelyhood in the future and advise you on how you might adjust the claim to be acceptable to the JREF. Are you able to state now a single prediction of a future event? If you are unable to accomplish that single task here, I doubt strongly that you will have any success in negotiating a protocol with JREF.

[William Smith]

...
Again; I AM the coming Messiah, not Jesus Christ, I AM the Antichrist, I AM
the Son Of Man...... This is a prophetical claim........
...


Can you prove this claim? How will you do it?

[Ririon]

A few words of advice, Peter:

Keep it shorter. The OP is way too long. Try to formulate what you want to say in fewer sentences and don't ramble on about something completely different in the middle of it.

Having genes that indidcate jewish heritage is not paranormal. If you want to discuss genetics, try the Science section.

Predictions have to be about the future. A prediction about something that has already happened will not win the MDC. If that is not obvious, we could discuss it some more.

And welcome to a fellow poster from Norway! :)

[SkepticScott]

It's off-topic, but Happy Birthday, Ririon!

[Cuddles]

Again; I AM the coming Messiah, not Jesus Christ, I AM the Antichrist, I AM
the Son Of Man...... This is a prophetical claim........

No it isn't. A prophesy is a prediction of future events. Claiming you're the antichrist is a claim about you here and now. In order to prove this you would have to prove the existence of god, the divinity of Jesus and your relationship to them. The question of whether your existence was predicted in the past is an entirely different claim that can't even be tested until you prove you really are what you claim.

As a side question, if you really are the antichrist, why are you interested in the challenge? I thought the coming of the antichrist meant the end of the world. I'm a little confused why someone with such power and a busy agenda would be interested in a relatively small amount of money that won't even exist soon.

[Pater]

Thank you for all the feedback.

I will try to answer some of your questions here.......

My email was not my application, it was questions I have which many have given very kind and serious replies to in the forum.

I am aware that If I make a prophetical claim, that does not mean it is Paranormal even if it validates a past prophecy. But like I have said earlier, prophecies often repeat themselves which would mean in my case that I can predict or even repeat old prophecies if I believe they will come true very soon and I would see this as an ability of precognition and retro-cognition in one.

Again; I AM the coming Messiah, not Jesus Christ, I AM the Antichrist, I AM
the Son Of Man...... This is a prophetical claim........

No it isn't. A prophesy is a prediction of future events. Claiming you're the antichrist is a claim about you here and now.

Can you prove this claim? How will you do it?

Well My Father if he was a religious man could also perhaps make the claim when my mother was pregnant, that I was to become the Antichrist, and I was even that as a child. But my ministry would not start until I was older, of course I AM here and now, but that dose not mean I AM not in the future also. If I suddenly do not die, that is which would prove me and God wrong.

It is true that what I do now, is not recognised to be what is expected to be done by the Antichrist or the Messiah which are one. But my prophetical claims are for the future as much as they are for the present. As you read now, your mind if by any chance has any preconceived thoughts about the Antichrist or the Messiah will fulfil the prophetical manifestation by struggling to believe or to doubt my claims.

Obviously I will try to prove this soon, but to my best understanding it is not I who should prove this. It is Humanities task to fulfil these prophecies and their purpose, as the prophecies concerning these two entities are of potential concern for all mankind and the future of the whole world and not just the fate of one person according to the Bible. Remember that prophecies affect all affected by them including me. I am part of the fulfilment of their purpose and in such way as I believe my purpose in life to be directed by God, it is thus his choice if it be so, to grant me the ability to prove my claims.

If not the prophecies will fulfil them self by other means such as the recognition of who I am by other people. This means that I alone am not in any case responsible for manifesting "proof" for my claims. If I will make any predictions concerning the nature or future of the Antichrist or the Messiah, I will do so according to Gods will and not my own.

"then I will claim to be able to provide a series or sets of prophecies which would be able to be proven or disproved by the test procedures you decide upon."

As I see it, there has not been to this date any validation to the prophecies concerning the Messiah or the Antichrist. Hence I can make any number of predictions that follow the old time prophetical statements, and the only thing I would need to do is to add my name or personage to those prophecies and claim that whatever the prophecies claim, those matters or events will happen to me or in the proximity of my presence. If it then would happen, would this be enough to prove my claims?

But I will not do that, for predictions that are made by the Bible are all ready set forth on a grand scale of events. So I will instead choose to make predictions concerning specific future events of my own choosing, that I see as bi-effects of larger and more encompassing prophecies. This in order to give JREF a better chance of control

But I did not get an answer and will ask again, concerning the testing, since there is a preliminary test and a formal test, would I have to make different predictions? Since I understand that other paranormal events would just have to be duplicated under testing supervision, with prophecy I see no point in making the same predictions several times.

I will consider My statements and make a claim on my application very soon, and try to restrain my own time limit for any prophetical fulfilment.

The existence of God, which is again not my task to prove, but will be proven as I myself will prove who I AM. Which will not make a difference in the coming years. It is not God whos task it is to create a better world, It is us who must do that by good faith in each others indwelling goodness.

"As a side question, if you really are the antichrist, why are you interested in the challenge? I thought the coming of the antichrist meant the end of the world. I'm a little confused why someone with such power and a busy agenda would be interested in a relatively small amount of money that won't even exist soon"

The coming of the Antichrist is not the end of the world, there are much larger problems at hand which must be dealt with than the common fear towards one man being the sign of the end times which most people do not even know. The world is rightly enough at a crossroad and a paradigm shift will occur very soon. But it is my duty along with other good people to embrace a faith of God fearing actions which will and shall change the world before it is to late.

And power? Do you really believe a Man is forced to have man made powers like money in order to change the world? And do you think a million dollars would do much change for all the poverty of the world?

As to preconceived notions of the agenda of the Antichrist it is no marvel to understand that a history of 2000 years allows for much fear and ignorance to develop in the minds of the collective consciousness concerning prophecies that are yet not still fulfilled. Seeing that prophetical understanding and wisdom in not revealed in its full truth to most people, it should not be hard to see how certain memes spread for both good and bad causes.


Thanks again.

Pater



-------------------------
Quotes from the Reply from
JREF to my email.....

If you have an ability, surely you can
prove it? If not, how do you know you have the ability?

So you are believing in something you can't prove. Why?

Please understand, it is the responsibiliy of the claimant to design
and arrange for testing. The JREF merely agrees that if the test is
succesful, the claimant gets the prize.

Also, we require the testing to be double-blind, and have odds great
than 1000:1. What you've described here doesn't seem to have any
control.

Also, we tend to reject religious claims simply because we've had no
success at all in getting claimants to design tests of Biblical
prophecy. The book is muddled, amorphous, has dozens upon dozens of
different versions. It's not specific enough to make any claims.

[timokay]

Why is it that everytime the ding-dong rings, we first have to go through the "helpful" mode, when we know that we are just mollycoddling the applicant?

Look Pater. I think you clearly understand the rules of the challenge.

If you claim there something remarkable about you, then just state how you can demonstrate it so that anyone can see it. You have to prove it. Not the JREF.

Stop quoting scripture, stop the foretelling of what "humanity" must do. I for one don't want to hear any of your religious beliefs. If you are going to make a prediction, then do it. Predict a specific event, and predict in in such a way that there is no way that your prediction could happen by chance.

Again, I apologize to those who think that we should just politely pat this guy on the head for our own amusement, while we banter back and forth about the details of what a prediction actually is (??), but we are really just giving him a forum to spout nonsense until (and if he ever) actually predicts something.

I think I ate too much bran today.

[drkitten]

Obviously I will try to prove this soon, but to my best understanding it is not I who should prove this.

Not as far as the JREF is concerned.

From its point of view, it is your responsibility to prove yourself in a clearly and empirically demonstrable fashion. It -- and the rest of humanity -- are not required to lift a finger to aid you.

If I will make any predictions concerning the nature or future of the Antichrist or the Messiah, I will do so according to Gods will and not my own.

This is not relevant to the JREF claim. It does not care whose will the prophecies represent, but merely whether or not they are demonstrably accurate.

As I see it, there has not been to this date any validation to the prophecies concerning the Messiah or the Antichrist. Hence I can make any number of predictions that follow the old time prophetical statements, and the only thing I would need to do is to add my name or personage to those prophecies and claim that whatever the prophecies claim, those matters or events will happen to me or in the proximity of my presence. If it then would happen, would this be enough to prove my claims?

Possibly, depending upon the degree of specificity of the prophesies. Given the extremely vague and poetic nature of most of the Biblical prophesies, they are unlikely to be specific enough to be acceptable to the JREF -- but that's your lookout.


But I will not do that, for predictions that are made by the Bible are all ready set forth on a grand scale of events. So I will instead choose to make predictions concerning specific future events of my own choosing, that I see as bi-effects of larger and more encompassing prophecies.

This is probably a better choice. Obviously, the more specific your prophecies, the greater a chance that the JREF will accept them as being challenge-worthy.

This in order to give JREF a better chance of control

It's not a control issue, but a judgement issue. To be acceptable, a challenge application must be provably passable (or failable) in a clear and convincing manner, such that "no judgement is required."



But I did not get an answer and will ask again, concerning the testing, since there is a preliminary test and a formal test, would I have to make different predictions?

Probably. It's best if you operate under that assumption. Randi is unlikely to bend this particular rule.

[Pater]

TimOkay

You are right, I will make a prediction and predict a specific event, and predict in in such a way that there is no way that my prediction could happen by chance.

But it is not in the Forum i must do it, or is it?

But if you want a prediction, heres one for you to feel better:

-------------The Bird Flu Pandemic will start, before 1000 people have died from an infection caused by the highly pathogen H5N1 strain.----------------

Current: cases = 244 / deaths =143

Happy?

Perhaps i should have used that one in my apllication............

[drkitten]

You are right, I will make a prediction and predict a specific event, and predict in in such a way that there is no way that my prediction could happen by chance.

But it is not in the Forum i must do it, or is it?

No. There is a separate application which you must fill out, have notarized (or the equivalent), and then sent via paper mail to the JREF offices. The application itself is available on-line (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html) but must be filled out and sent in meat-space.



But if you want a prediction, heres one for you to feel better:

-------------The Bird Flu Pandemic will start, before 1000 people have died from an infection caused by the highly pathogen H5N1 strain.----------------

I'm not sure that this is sufficiently detailed in its present form to qualify, mostly because I don't fully understand it (which I'm willing to attribute to a language barrier). What do you mean by "the Bird Flu Pandemic"? How can we tell when a pandemic has "started"? And what happens if there is no Bird Flu Pandemic? What then?

But it's the sort of prediction that can easily be tweaked (in discussion with the JREF) into a legitimate and testable prediction. Well done. Ship it along with your application and I'm sure that something can be negotiated fairly quickly and in a straightforward way.

[HappyCat]

I would say that you have to make different predictions for the preliminary test and the final test. This is because, in order to pass the preliminary test, your first prophecy must be validated. Since you claim to be the Antichrist, and the coming of the Antichrist is said to be marked with wars, can you give us a specific prediction regarding these wars? Perhaps, what is the exact date and substance of a major event in the war (an assasination, an important landmark being destroyed, etc.)? This would probably be acceptable for both the preliminary and the final test.

[SkepticScott]

But if you want a prediction, heres one for you to feel better:

-------------The Bird Flu Pandemic will start, before 1000 people have died from an infection caused by the highly pathogen H5N1 strain.----------------

Current: cases = 244 / deaths =143

That's a good start. Let me see if I understand this. You are saying the Bird Flu will become a Pandemic before 857 more people have died from the H5N1 strain.

From www.m-w.com, "pandemic" means "occurring over a wide geographic area and affecting an exceptionally high proportion of the population".

Could you say when will this occur? It could take a long time for that many people to die from H5N1. If humanity brings the disease under control with vaccinations and treatment, so that only one person dies from this disease each decade, it could take an very long time.

Who decides when it is a pandemic? The U.S. Center for Disease Control? The Norwegian equivalent? You? Me? What source do we use for the figures? If the U.S. CDC reports 1000 deaths due to H5N1 when it declares "pandemic", but another organization reports 999 deaths, are you right or wrong?

Could you restate that as "On or before (date), organization (name) will declare H5N1 a pandemic, while at the same time organization (name) will have attributed less than 1000 deaths to H5N1." Then JREF will consult with experts to see how likely that is to occur by chance, to see if that's a suitable test. As you know, something that is likely to happen given the current data is less suitable for a test than something that is unlikely to happen.

Expect something like that to happen as you and JREF design the test. The more specific the better.

[Crowbot]

So, Pater, you're the supposed anti-christ and your only demonstratable "power" is to vaguely predict events? You really have nothing else going for you?

At least the original christ had some parlor tricks like water into wine or healing the sick. Dont you have ANYTHING like that which can be demonstrated? If the answer to that question is "no", have you considered the possibility that you are NOT the anti-christ, but indeed another mundane human like everyone else?

[tojohndillonesq]

To summarize for fellow forum folks: Huhhn?

H5N1 is one of the two viruses known as Avian flu. The other strain is commonly called Bird flu. You are predicting that Bird flu will become "pandemic" before HSN1 kills 1,000 people? Right?

Two problems:

1) We need a specific definition of "pandemic." How do you define when that occurs? Number of cases or ?

2) Even if you very clearly defined and quantified "pandemic," I don't think predicting that one disease will spead faster than another will meet the "odds" criteria. Even with the specific 1,000 deaths due to H5N1.

I have no idea how you would calculate the odds; they would either be too close to 50/50 - not meeting the 1000 to 1 criteria - or would be impossible to calculate accurately - hence impossible to quantify the experiment. Either way it is a non-starter.

What else do you have? The smaller and less "sweeping" the prediction, the more likely it will be that you can create a well-formed criteria that are quantifiable.

[Pater]

Yes I do understand that predictions are not meant for the forum, I was just making a small remark to Timokay because I felt he was tempting me to make a prediction in the forum, I am sorry if I made myself misunderstood, I am really very happy for all the feedback everyone has given me to achieve my goal in the challenge :) Thanks again.

" What do you mean by "the Bird Flu Pandemic"? How can we tell when a pandemic has "started"? And what happens if there is no Bird Flu Pandemic? What then?"

A pandemic is any type (of a disease) which becomes prevalent over a whole country or the entire world. Bird Flu, or Avian Influenza is an Influenza virus mainly affecting birds at this moment which can mutate and become transmissible between humans there are many strains some more aggressive than others. At that point in time when it starts to spread between humans, it is then "airborne" and the Pandemic has officially then started.....

If there is no Pandemic....... then I will be very happy to announce that my prediction was wrong and that anything I have in my Faith is not true, and I will freely claim to be delusional of the greatest kind, and myself ask for forgiveness for causing any problems in the minds of others.

Yes Happycat, I will consider making predictions concerning manmade evil, but I will save my prediction for the challenge, thank you for all your ideas, I know what popular beliefs accompany the Antichrist ministry, sadly as I see it, many of these beliefs have really no foundation in any Biblical prophecies, but are the ignorant ways of mankind to attribute their own evil actions unknowingly upon others and their naive effort to do good in the world.

[tojohndillonesq]

Pater: You would be AMAZED at how open minded some of the folks in this forum are, and I think I speak for many of us when I say we would love to see you set a good first test and pass it!

Unfortunately, we just don't think you will.

[Almo]

Pater: You would be AMAZED at how open minded some of the folks in this forum are, and I think I speak for many of us when I say we would love to see you set a good first test and pass it!

Unfortunately, we just don't think you will.

I can say that he speaks for me. That's exactly how I feel about it.

[Pater]

As you clearly have understood to to a number of agencies being responsible for stating the number of deaths at any given time, I will not.

On the other hand, it is only the World Health Organization that has the right to announce that the Pandemic has started, after which all Governments will announce it to their people , and they alone are those who must verify all other sources and clarify the number of deaths etc.

The Pandemic may very well start tonight, and by the time the WHO has verified for instance 800 deaths, a 1000 more might be sick and dying within 48 hours. But on can presume that if the number of deaths goes from 143 to 1000 in less than a weeks time, then the Pandemic has without doubt started sometime that past week.

I do not want to say when this can or will not occur, but my statement "will start, before 1000 people have died" should be enough to be counted as a valid prediction, at least for the forum thread :) And no I do not predict that humans will bring the disease under control with vaccinations and treatment, so the time span in which the pandemic will unfold after it starts will be very short not a long period of time.

"Could you restate that as "On or before (date)"

There is no use in predicting a date for it will as I have explained no be possible to verify, once the pandemic start, days will become very short in the mind of people and hours very long. Knowing the rate of deaths and the rate of which new people are getting sick will be the only sign as to approximately when the pandemic in fact started and where.


Dear "tojohndillonesq"

H5N1 is one of many strains, there are even many strains of H5N1, but the term Bird Flu is the same as the term Avian Influenza, they both are the same disease! There are 16 H types, each with up to 9 N subtypes, yielding a potential for 144 different H and N combinations. In addition, all AI viruses fall into one of 2 pathotypes: low (LPAI) and high (HPAI) pathogenicity, based on how dangerous to poultry.

-------------

"So, Pater, you're the supposed anti-christ and your only demonstratable "power" is to vaguely predict events? You really have nothing else going for you? "

No! And yes I I have considered possibility that I am NOT the anti-christ, but indeed another mundane human like everyone else.

But I am also sure that most people back in the days of Jesus had much greater belief in miracles that present day living people......And If I am ever told that another person has proven or been accepted to be the Antichrist, then I will be happy, for mind you it is a ministry of a heavy burden to bear which few understand the nature of.....but even if that were to happen, I guess then I would just take the position of the False Prophet instead.... Get the point?

"Pater: You would be AMAZED at how open minded some of the folks in this forum are, and I think I speak for many of us when I say we would love to see you set a good first test and pass it!"

Thank you, I know you would be happy on my behalf, and you know this has been a major issue in my faith over the years. Must I, or must I not have other people believe in me in order for me to be able to perform what is meant to become true by the prophecies of the Bible. Well I have understood that having thousands believing in you a little, is the same as having just a few believing in you allot, but if my own faith in the end is not strong enough, then I will never be able to prove the goodness of God and his purpose of creation and the existence of his suffering.

Pater

[ChaosEngineer]

I AM the Antichrist

OK. If you're the fulfillment of the various prophecies in Revelation, then that's a verifiable claim and it could qualify you for the million dollars. (Provided that you fulfill the prophecies literally and not in a vague symbolic way.) The only catch is that Randi will probably want to give you a time limit so that he can know for sure whether he's won or lost. Maybe you could wait and apply a couple of months before the first prophecies get fulfilled?

That said...it seems like most of the prophecies involve seven-headed beasts and stars falling from the sky and giant flying lambs. None of that is very nice. I think the bit with the scorpions is especially creepy.

Have you considered quitting as Antichrist and not trying to fulfill any of the prophecies? You won't qualify for the million dollars, but you'll become one of humanity's greatest benefactors, and that's worth more than any amount of money. Read the Gaiman/Pratchett novel "Good Omens" and think it over.

Thanks in advance!

[timokay]

Pater,
Your prediction is not sufficient. You are claiming that the Bird Flu pandemic will be identified before 1000 people will die from Bird Flu.

Tell us when it will occur. Precisely, either within a few days, or at least one week. Anything else is worthless. Also, it should be stated where the deaths will be located. 1000 people worldwide is not sufficient. Also, this number may already be hit in indonesia because of poor reporting, so what exactly are you predicting, that it will occur over a shorter period of time? Tens of thousands are at risk right now all over Asia.

You basically are saying that someday, the bird flu will become a pandemic. It may already be that. And when it is identified as such by the WHO, you want the credit.

Nonsense. Try again.

I am not going to argue about what is or is not a pandemic, or which virus is identified by bird flu. Just tell us when 1000 are going to die in a short period of time, and where. If you can't do that, then you cannot predict anything.

[Spindrift]

Based on historical patterns, influenza pandemics can be expected to occur, on average, three to four times each century when new virus subtypes emerge and are readily transmitted from person to person. However, the occurrence of influenza pandemics is unpredictable.

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2004_01_15/en/

Even though they are unpredictable, does just saying a pandemic will occur qualify as paranormal? Even with his 1000 death qualifier?

If Pater could narrow down the prediction a bit to say within a 30 day timeframe, then I'd accept that as paranormal. Otherwise, it's just a guess that has a chance of winning $1,000,000.

[Crowbot]

"So, Pater, you're the supposed anti-christ and your only demonstratable "power" is to vaguely predict events? You really have nothing else going for you? "

No! And yes I I have considered possibility that I am NOT the anti-christ, but indeed another mundane human like everyone else.

But I am also sure that most people back in the days of Jesus had much greater belief in miracles that present day living people......And If I am ever told that another person has proven or been accepted to be the Antichrist, then I will be happy, for mind you it is a ministry of a heavy burden to bear which few understand the nature of.....but even if that were to happen, I guess then I would just take the position of the False Prophet instead.... Get the point?

Pater, if your only "power" is vague predictions of future events - why do you consider yourself the anti-christ? Many people believe they have the EXACT SAME "power" you yourself claim to have - on this forum we call them "psychics". Can you provide any more insight as to why you believe you are the anti-christ as opposed to a "psychic", given your admission that your only "power" is the vague prediction of future events?

[Spindrift]

If his prediction qualifies then I'd like to make a few predictions of my own:

A hurricane will hit Florida and people will die before 1000 people die from hurricanes hitting North Carolina.

An earthquake will hit Japan and a building will fall down killing at least one person.

A forest fire will burn in Colorado and a lot of trees will be destroyed.

All these predictions will occur within the next 200 years. JREF can pay my heirs if I'm not around.

[saizai]

Pater: If you are indeed the antichrist, then this should be easy.

1. Make a simple, easily observable prophecy about the world that the rest of us would consider highly unlikely and will be fulfilled within a year or so.
2. Raise hellfire or other stuff like that. Or make God come down and smite you. Whatever; miracles count as a hit. :-)
3. Make Armageddon start. Or a few thousand people disappear. Something like that.
4. Why the hell would you care about a measly $1m?

[Loss Leader]

I was going to respond to Pater, but I believe that it crosses a line to aid him in focusing on his claims.

And not because I think he intends to destroy the earth.

[saizai]

Oh also, Pater:

If you are indeed the antichrist, then taking antipsychotic medications should not interfere with that.

If you are not, then you are probably suffering from mental illness and it would likely be in your best interests to take such medications.

That's a net win no matter which is the case, so I recommend you try it.

[The_Fire]

Removed due me being in a bad mood while posting....

[jmercer]

Oh also, Pater:

If you are indeed the antichrist, then taking antipsychotic medications should not interfere with that.

If you are not, then you are probably suffering from mental illness and it would likely be in your best interests to take such medications.

That's a net win no matter which is the case, so I recommend you try it.

Well said. I agree.

[petre]

I'll weigh in that certainly Pater came through and made a fairly specific prediction (given the behavior of past applicants, it seemed a more likely response would have been a flood of numerology affirming relationships between more past events and ancient texts, mixed with various philosophical musings).

It may well be that his prediction is as specific as possible, given whatever means he has to divine such knowledge. Given other statements he's made I feel a slightly-more formalized form would be:

----
*The WHO will declare a Bird Flu Pandemic (should probably make clear whether the WHO is going to declare a date that the pandemic started, or if we'll simply be using the date that the WHO makes such a declaration) before it declares that 1000 total people have died from an infection caused by the highly pathogen H5N1 strain (including people who passed prior to this prediction).
*AND at least 1000 total people will die from the H5N1 strain at some point after the Pandemic is declared.
*AND the H5N1 will not be "easily treated or vaccinated for" before 1000 deaths occur (further definition will be needed of on whose authority the quoted section would be declared, wrt this prediction).
----

That he has already cited a specific current death toll leads me to believe it came from a WHO source, so guessed that he would also accept that source as official wrt his prediction.

I express doubt that this single prediction on its own would qualify for even the preliminary test, yet perhaps several such predictions with a reasonable accuracy rate (say, 15 of 20? 35 of 50?) might just do the trick.

This would probably be a good time to e-mail JREF to get an idea how they'd like to handle such open-duration predictions, and just how many (of about this likelyhood) might be needed for a preliminary and final test. Given the nature and duration of things, perhaps they'd view a particular number of predictions sufficient to cover preliminary and final tests at one go.

If you'd like further opinions of forum members, feel free to ask and I'll chime in with mine when I find the time. Other than that, I think you'll need to be talking with JREF directly to hammer out further details.

[William Smith]

...
But I did not get an answer and will ask again, concerning the testing, since there is a preliminary test and a formal test, would I have to make different predictions?
...


I suggest this: Please tell us in advance to the event in question

1. what (exact description in one sentence if possible)
2. when (year, month, day, hour, minute if possible)
3. where (continent, state, region, town, street, exact address if possible)

will happen.

Please tell us also - in advance - what will constitute a success and what will mean a failure of your prediction.

[Pater]

"Maybe you could wait and apply a couple of months before the first prophecies get fulfilled?"

Very true and good idea of a way to go about it to be sure of success, then I could just pick any of the awaited events to happen. But I will try to make some predictions relating to the Biblical ones but not mentioned in there, thus not depending on their timeframe.

"Have you considered quitting as Antichrist and not trying to fulfil any of the prophecies? You won't qualify for the million dollars, but you'll become one of humanity's greatest benefactors, and that's worth more than any amount of money"

:) Funny question, I do not think its a Job in that sense, and I believe events will unfold in my life either I want them to or not. I think you have the impression that the Antichrist somehow must be and will be evil and do only bad to humanity. This is not right in my faith. The biblical prophecies are misunderstood in many ways.

In my own faith, which probably no person alive shares but few, Antichrist is a tool of God to try mankind. It is complicated to explain all in a short post, but if you consider that some people believe that the Jews will accept Antichrist as their Messiah. Then you can clearly expect there to be a very large amount of Christians suddenly in doubt over their faith in Jesus as the Messiah. And even further down the end times, you know that the Bible clearly states that the Antichrist will make people worship him as God, Rev 13, do you think God will be angry with the Antichrist or with the people who turn their backs on him when this happens?

In my faith, I AM a tool in Gods right hand, to try humans so God can see if
they stand firm in worshiping just him alone. There are many misconceptions
about the ministry of the Antichrist, but please keep in mind that neither
Antichrist, Messiah nor Satan can do anything unless God first approves of them to do so. But for the record, I do not believe Satan exists.....

Dear Timokay, I thought I made it clear I will not make any further predictions in the Forum on demand, the reason why I mentioned the Bird Flu was to get you happier since you seemed so frustrated to my claims in you first post in this thread(maybe due to your consumption of to much bran today), but you are just tempting me, and I am not pleased to give away whatever I believe to people just in order to satisfy their need for clarification to others claims of paranormal abilities. Probably this is why as Ranid puts it in the FAQ: "The "stars" never do this, and in fact they do anything they can to avoid us and our challenge"

But I am sorry I said anything resembling a prediction, I will restrain myself from doing so again until the time for the challenge.

1 Timothy 6:9-10
9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

And No I have NOT said myself that :my only "power" is vague predictions of future events" Those were Crowbots words describing me......

Thank you to all of those who have given me advice, I will take some days to work on providing a good test for the Challenge and apply when I am ready.

My God be with you all.

Pater

[Bradk3]

In the meantime, could you at least give us a, preferably short and coherant, explanation of why you believe you are the antichrist?

Do you just have this "feeling"? Are you mentioned by name in the Bible (not in my bible - I've looked)? Did you get a memo from God? What is it that makes you believe you are the antichrist?

Would you consider taking antipsychosis medication just in case?

[William Smith]

...
Again; I AM the coming Messiah, not Jesus Christ, I AM the Antichrist, I AM
the Son Of Man...... This is a prophetical claim........
...

Prove it, please. Tell us, how you intend to prove it in advance, please.

Please do not quote scriptures as proof, Pater, or add numbers. A simple demonstration will suffice.

[timokay]

"Dear Timokay, I thought I made it clear I will not make any further predictions in the Forum on demand, the reason why I mentioned the Bird Flu was to get you happier since you seemed so frustrated to my claims in you first post in this thread(maybe due to your consumption of to much bran today), but you are just tempting me, and I am not pleased to give away whatever I believe to people just in order to satisfy their need for clarification to others claims of paranormal abilities. Probably this is why as Ranid puts it in the FAQ: "The "stars" never do this, and in fact they do anything they can to avoid us and our challenge"

You did not make a valid prediction at ALL. So if you are going to continue, then make one NOW.

I do in fact demand it. Put up or shut up. Don't come here and claim you can do something, and then waffle around about how you are the antichrist. I do not want to hear any of your religious nonsense.

Present your evidence that you can do it. To us, here and now. Stop waiting for the application process. Prove it here. If you do it, then you will have a forum full of defenders and believers to aid you in getting that million. I will be first in line.

Give a specific prediction of when, where and what will happen. Specific. I know you have a dictionary, so look it up first.

Or go away.

[saizai]

timokay - Since when are you a representative of JREF? I thought that was Jeff's job...

[Psiload]

In the meantime, could you at least give us a, preferably short and coherant, explanation of why you believe you are the antichrist?

He already did...

because he's a tool.

[Pater]

Timokay says" Give a specific prediction of when, where and what will happen. Specific. I know you have a dictionary, so look it up first." Or go away.

To my best understanding, I am not under your command, an very sure only God judges me, so you do not need to be harsh when speaking to me, I do what I want and say what I want. If you have objection, you to can say what is on your heart in a friendly way, but the Forum is free choice to those who wish to speak. Your behaviour deserves no prediction whatsoever so you will not hear me say any on your demand, sorry to tell you this. If you still feel you have a problems with my claims, no body is forcing you to read this thread or any of my posts, or are they? You are not alone in being anxious to see a world full of miracles, but humanity has waited for miracles for more than 2000 years, you do not have any patience left?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bellow are some answers to other peoples questions.

"Can you provide any more insight as to why you believe you are the anti-christ as opposed to a "psychic"

"In the meantime, could you at least give us a, preferably short and coherant, explanation of why you believe you are the antichrist?"
---------------------------
Ps, sorry for the long post bellow, it is still to make a long story short:)

I cannot give you a short explanation sorry for that, but I can provide an explanation, that I can give you as best as I can, and you cannot ask of my not to quote the Bible since both the concept of Messiah and antichrist are biblical in nature.......

My dear friends, prophecy must be fulfilled, God has issues that need to be
dealt with. He and the world is suffering, yes Almighty he is, but in his
likeness we were created, do you suffer? I do. And many others do even more..

If ever God should allow for peace on earth, humans will destroy that peace
if we first do not change our ways before peace is given, and most of us do
not change until we really suffer very much. I do not need to create wars or
evil in the world in order for others to suffer, other people do that already and not on my behalf.

There is no reason why I should hide, neither do I have any hidden agenda
with my faith. I do not believe in Satan or any other evil force acting upon
our will, we, humans alone do evil and choose to do bad unto other and unto
the natural world we live in. But I do not blame people either, you know
that no man or woman has chosen to be born, neither in any pre-given space
or time, our genetic make-ups are not chosen by will, the influences from
the outer world which contribute unto who we are are something no man or
woman can control. Then let it be said that God has issues, which humans
will never understand, were it not to be for those like me who care for his
suffering.

I have always been honest with people, first I was honest with my friends, then with strangers, now with the world..

My faith of who I AM, or can be, is not more than 7 years old now. So you
see the world is changing, and I do not have time to go around the bush, nor
any president and neither any miracle burnings. But despite of my honesty
and the so called popular desires of many people to find the Antichrist,
sadly most people do not know or recognize truth when they see it. Somehow
they are expecting a wealthy person with pre made powers and authority, that
is not me, not yet remember also that Jesus only started his ministry at the age of 30. Hence right now I am not existing enough to fit the
pre-conceived profile of people :). So I cant do more than be honest, I to hope that there is one or some persons who will know truth, not because I give it to them, but because they will have a witness in Gods revelations to them concerning my own truth.

Again dear friends, I am just a human, my faith is strange perhaps to others,but all my revelations are given to me on a need to know basis, so I to must wait for others to be fully prepared in their own truths. But suddenly many mysteries will become obvious to many.

Rev 13
18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the
beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred
threescore and six.

Why me? Why not? Would you not any of you choose to sacrifice your own life if you would know you did so for the good of all living humanity? I will, but not as a martyr of Islam shouting Allah u Akbar expecting 72 virgins in return, but when it comes to God dealing with his servants, you must know that scripture tells people what they need to hear and know at a certain time. Prophecy repeats itself, but when it does so in different time spaces, the prophecies manifest in very different ways this I have said before.

But if you want to know my stand point on this matter, I believe that the
deadly "wound" the beast gets to his head by a sword in Revelation 13 and
other verses is a wound caused by the sword of the Cherubims guarding the
way to the Tree of Life.

Rev 13:14
"Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast,
he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image
in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lives"

Gen 3
" 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know
good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the
tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till
the ground from whence he was taken.

24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden
Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of
the tree of life.

Hence Antichrist is the first man since Adam who sees and the tree, but
unlike Adam the Antichrist eats of the tree, and "lives forever" as Genesis
says.

This is actually very important because God said that all humans should eat
of the tree of life. Hence his resurrection after the wound is to mimic the
lords resurrection if you may. This happens before he is "cast alive into a
lake of fire burning with brimstone" Hence one who lives forever cannot die!

But he/I :) will show the path unto the tree of life unto all humanity!

I do not know what time my coming on the world stage is, only my God knows that time, but you should understand that there are two appointed times in the end times, one for my coming etc, the other more important which is the end of all things before a new earth and new heaven etc:

Mark 13
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which
are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Now dear friends, you see my family name is Pater, which means Father in
Latin. So If the Antichrist will pose himself as God, and only the Father
knows the day and hour, then you know, I know what I should not know myself
until it must happen :)

Also Jesus said:

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another
shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

The verse above is the closest i can come to claim that my name is mentioned in the Bible......by Jesus

Let me also tell you some verses bellow in which I recognize myself and my
ministry clearly, so you perhaps understand why I praise a true God who most
Jews, Muslims and Christians do not any longer know:

Daniel 11

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself,
and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things
against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be
accomplished: for that which is determined shall be done.

37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women,
nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his
fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious
stones, and pleasant things.

39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he
shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule
over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

Dear friends, My God created the world, he gave life to Adam and gave the
Jews their faith, but look at them now? I hope you understand that God does
not and will not approve of such acts for much longer, would they have known
him they would not act as they are doing and have been doing in all past
history ( Read Ezekiel to see Gods view on this), and they say they want a
Holy Temple, without my will they will never have one! For I must purify the
ground and build it, and I alone will also choose to destroy it as my God
will tell me to do so according to his will, his will alone be praised, and
his name be sanctified forever above all other names. Need predictions?

Dear friends, I know that Christians get a very different view on the matters spoken of by Revelation, but also most Christians are led astray from what significance the Old Testament should play in Christian worship, this boils down to the ministry and doctrines of different Christian denominations or various churches etc

I know of the popular views about the Antichrist, and share some of them
with most others, for instance, I myself believe that the Tribulation or 7
year period started at the end of 2005, that is at the start of the year 2006 thus ending coincidently in 2012 when the Mayan calendar ends. Which means that the Temple should be build very soon indeed, preparations for this are under way:

templeinstitute

I would say that all faith aims to prepare a standpoint for the coming of the AC and Messiah, and even more will aid him in becoming what is needed to be in order to be able to fulfil "All biblical prophecies"

Hence saying that Jesus fulfilled all Old testament prophecies is wrong,
there are way to many things that have not taken place yet for this to be
true i.e the reason why the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah. Also
its the same with popular beliefs, like 666, recently they discovered old
fragments of copies of revelation, scientists said that it dose not say 666
but 616. Do you believe this will make any difference to what people
believe? No of course not, If God intends to do something a certain way,
then history cannot be rewritten and thus what is inside peoples faith today
will be used to advance a certain cause by the current popular beliefs.

A person said once: "If you are the Anti Christ, you have no need to worry about the bird-flu or any other disease or plaque or catastrophe, because Mr. Pater Our God has had you planned from the very beginning of time and trust me, if you are indeed the fake Messiah that is to come, you will not do anything but what God has planned for you and that is that."

Very true, yes indeed, I myself probably really do not have to worry for my
own survival etc, and I probably would not be scared about the bird flu at
all if I myself would not at this time be a father to a lovely girl..........

I currently do not think I am immune
to sickness of the world, It may be because I am a sinner or because deep
inside my beliefs anger God somewhat beyond his own will of allowing a man
to set himself above his throne. But I know this is not the case, simply I
am human, and although all humans have an inner universal healing power proven many times over and called the "placebo effect" I am not in control of it consciously.

I whish I were, then I would not worry about the bird flu and the pandemic coming, but i have never required miracles to have faith in God. and for as long as I Am in a fragile faith, my healing powers of the self or others will not be enough to cure me or anyone else from and ill. God probably lets me do only what he needs of me to do at a certain time, and people seemingly fall in doubt as to why I praise God and love him as I do, and it is because I have learned from Moses, from Job, and from Jesus etc, that one shall never blame God for the bad or evil that happens in the world, neither that which affects oneself.

Another matter you must remember about the Antichrist is that when the Jews accept him as their Messiah, they do not neither have nor will they ever take into account the words of the New Testament, they are not relevant for them at all.

Antichrist is a New Testament figure which is no threat to their doctrines. Also, no matter who would come to them claiming to be the Messiah, they will be rejected if not they can fulfil the prophecies spoken of in the OT. To the Jews, Messiah, can call himself the Antichrist , and they would not care, for they are all Antichrists, as you know many have gone out into the world.

Yes God guides people to truth, but even the apostles were kept from knowing all thing by Jesus.

Thus there are many things which will not be known until it
is time. And as it is with all religions in the world, do you really believe
that God is so stupid that he creates all these religions without making
sure the the read thread runs through all of them? so that man made
differences can be set aside at the end when peace must be established.

Most Christians would like to blame me for causing their sins etc, but I feel fail on three main points by their own choosing, they break commandments without me or Satan having to influence them in any way. (My views in brackets)

1.You shall have no other gods before me. (Christian worship Jesus as God)

2. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything
that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the
water under the earth.

(Catholics, Orthodox, and many others Christians worship images, Icons of
Jesus, Apostles, Saints, etc) ps, I was baptized as a child in Greek
orthodox Church in Romania and myself like Icons, crucifixes etc :).

3. Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy.

( Sunday is not the real Sabbath day, Friday after sunset to Saturday after
sunset is the Sabbath the Jews uphold, Sunday was chosen at a later time by
the early church around 300 AD, but there is of course allot of debate to
these facts also.)

It is not so that all Christians are blinded from seeing the truth, but many see it in the wrong light, at least the way I see it they do not.

According to the Gematria I deal with, if you add the values for my names, it equals the sum of two other famous names :) i fouynd this by syncronicity you may say....

( Ciprian + Florin + Pater = 1463, also, Satan + Lucifer = 1463 :)

Pater = 686, The Bible consist of 66 books, 686 + 66 = 752

Satan = 752

I would not say that I am Satan, like I said, I do not believe he exists,
why? Well consider these two verses:

And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he
moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel.
- II Samuel 24:1

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number
Israel.
- I Chronicles 21:1

Remember that God has many tools to use in order to bring back humanity unto
Salvation, and yes, Satan was a good angel to start with, what we do not
know now, we will understand soon.

Sadly miracles do not happen
any longer, but they will soon again, when they do, no military force will
stand against the powers of prophets and witnesses of God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there
shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be
any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If the above will happen, then it could have happened any time in the past
but God did not allow for it to happen yet, hence all thing can be seen to
be an illusion for a cause, thus evil also is something we experience for a
cause greater than life itself, a purpose which only God knows to the end.

Remember also that Satan said: Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye
eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods,
knowing good and evil.

Knowing good and evil is being like God, now we can have a great debate if
or if not God himself has any part of bad, or evil in him, at least we know
that knowing bad does not force you to do bad, but still it is apart of your
self, so evil is not something that Satan created, it is a part of the
knowledge of God which he did not want us to take part of, but we did and
now we know its burdens in all ways possible.

What then do you know about the mark of God upon us? Are we not marked?
those of us who will refuse to worship the beast?

You know, the whole issue about the mark of the beast is also misunderstood to a great extent, since it says in:

Rev 14 1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him
an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in
their foreheads.

Also

Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city,
through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men
that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst
thereof.

(Recall that, in Egypt, only safe homes were those marked with the blood of
the lamb.)

But Yes I do believe that the mark is a tool of God to prove the faithful
from the unfaithful, but sadly enough those that do not accept the mark of
the beast will be killed, this is to become a martyr, yet knowing the
resurection is right around the corner would do them good at last, and
becoming a part of those who will rule over those left in the 1000 years upon the new earth is something that those faithful will choose for themselves. I do not claim to know the full details of these things, they will evolve as they must in due time according to God will only.

But do not get me wrong no, probably my greatest struggle with doctrine is
that some must be damned to eternal condemnation, I do not believe in that
God needs to Judge us all differently, we can all get eternal lives but
these are some complicated issues again having to do with Gods suffering and
the creation of the universe and all energies within it etc

Ps, also I want to tell you something funny, some days ago I found a site
Briansprediction . com for the first time, I glanced through some of it
I am not sure how many of his predictions are right or not, but I found one
which I feel was very funny for me.......

“I'm almost certain that this dream was referring to a dream I had a month
or so ago...it said "one person will change the world. Now I'm not a
Buddhist and I have no idea why I keep having dreams like this, but a man
called "Patel" is the one.”

Anyway, you see the reason why its funny for me, he said he had dreams of a
name "Patel"

I have sent Brian an email, telling him that as Nostradamus predicted the
name of Hitler to be “Hister” so he to was one letter wrong when predicting
my name Pater :) and I was honest with him telling him that my faith for the
past 7 years has been and still is, that I AM: The Antichrist :)

His response was;

"I do not believe in the bible and the antichrist, however many people seem
too."

An lastly concerning my soul, I have often had a thought or revelation, I am not sure which, that if I would know that all the problems of humanity are solved and done away with, then I myself would not ask for anything more of God. Then I would not mind taking the lonely place in hell instead of all humans or simply being alone apart from all humans forever, as long as I know all humans are well and their existence is in a non physical state of eternal goodness.

Hope this answers some of your questions......

Pater

[William Smith]

Pater, again, I suggest this: Please tell us in advance to the event in question

1. what (exact description in one sentence if possible)
2. when (year, month, day, hour, minute if possible)
3. where (continent, state, region, town, street, exact address if possible)

will happen.

Please tell us also - in advance - what will constitute a success and what will mean a failure of your prediction.

Please be more brief.

[timokay]

timokay - Since when are you a representative of JREF? I thought that was Jeff's job...

You are correct. I am not. Feel free to stroke this guy till the cows some home. Let's poke sticks at him for our fun and amusement.

But face it. Many of you want him to apply just so he can fail. For what? So we can feel superior? I am tired of it. Do any of you really think anything other than he needs medical help? Is that our role here, to see that the mentally ill get support by failing the challenge and having an epiphany?

I can get behind the dowsers, and the electro/magnetic chip guys, because at least they can learn the science, and there is a slim possibility that they come around. But pandering to the antichrist is just cruel.

It's not fun for me anymore. I walk by the psychic storefronts and just want to burn them down. (FBI, don't worry, not gonna do it) They are criminals, and they prey on the weak minded. Just like faith healers and wannabee messiahs.

If you look at the end of the road for Pater, what really do you see? And what do you hope to gain by letting him foster his delusions?

BTW, Pater, I sincerely apologize if anything I have said offends you. You do not need to respond to me any longer. I wish you good health, and I hope you seek medical attention and counseling.

[William Smith]

Let there be freedom of choice - with rights and responsabilities.

[Beleth]

If his prediction qualifies then I'd like to make a few predictions of my own:

A hurricane will hit Florida and people will die before 1000 people die from hurricanes hitting North Carolina.
An earthquake will hit Japan and a building will fall down killing at least one person.
A forest fire will burn in Colorado and a lot of trees will be destroyed.
All these predictions will occur within the next 200 years. JREF can pay my heirs if I'm not around.
While I would have tried to put a more genteel spin on this, Spindrift does make a valid point.

It isn't enough to make a valid prediction of the future. For instance, "I predict that the sun will rise over Tijuana at exactly umpty-ump thirty on March 24, 2038" may very well come true, but it's not at all paranormal. It has to be unexplainable by our current knowledge of science.

Your H5N1 prophecy is a very, very good start, but I think it's a little too probable (i.e. likely to happen) to qualify for the Challenge.

For a great declaration of a prophecy IMHO, check this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sjf4ELVeX8) out. He says that a nuclear war will break out, he gives a specific date, and that date is within 2 or 3 months of the time he made the prophecy public. He says a lot of stuff that's irrelevant to the Challenge, and of course the date he gives for the nuclear war was yesterday, but if you ignore those things his prophecy is eminently Challenge-worthy.

If you can make two prophecies like that in a row, where the event is:
specific in time, place, and effect;
unexplainable scientifically;
obvious to everyone (no judging needed); and
sufficiently unusual;then you should have little difficulty qualifying for the Challenge.
(Whether you win or not depends on whether the propheces come true, of course.)

[Pater]

Thanks for all replies, its 3 AM in norway so ill answer more tomorrwo :) Good night,

[webfusion]

Humanity has waited for miracles for more than 2000 years

Hundreds of thousands of years.
There have never been any demonstrable 'miracles' in the entire span of human existence.
http://www.wsu.edu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/timeline/h-sapiens/h-sapiens-a.html

I can make a prediction right here and now: This guy will fail to complete and send in a notarized Application before the end of this year.

Oh, and just to make my prediction more accurate and measurable:
I consider the "Years" to be measured according to the Hebrew lunar calendar of the jews, and New Year Rosh Ha'Shana occurs on Sept 22nd-23rd.

But, that is itself a misnomer of sorts, since the Bible speaks of Rosh Ha'Shanah as occurring on the first day of the seventh month, yet the first month of the Jewish calendar is Nissan, occurring in March and April. Why, then, does the Jewish "new year" occur in Tishri, the seventh month?
Judaism has several different "new years," a concept which may seem strange at first, but think of it this way: the American "new year" starts in January, but the new "school year" starts in September, and many businesses have "fiscal years" that start at various times of the year. In Judaism, Nissan 1 is the new year for the purpose of counting the months on the calendar, Elul 1 (in August) is the new year for the tithing of animals, Shevat 15 (in February) is the new year for trees (determining when first fruits can be eaten, etc.), and Tishri 1 (Rosh Ha'Shanah) is the new year for years (when we increase the year number).

But, of course, as the AntiChrist, you already knew all this; sorry for boring you, Ciprian.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Ririon, I wish that the One Known As Pater had taken your advice back in
Post #9 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1918961&postcount=9)

Try to formulate what you want to say in fewer sentences and don't ramble on about something completely different in the middle of it.

Composing an Application letter will be an impossibility if the Messiah ignores this basic point!

[hellaeon]

[shameless plug]

Are you claiming to be the antichrist? if so sorry, your completely wrong. Checkout my band (http://www.darklord.com.au) -

With songs like 'Our Father who art in Hell' and 'Destruction of the new HEaven', twin neck guitars, chains, spikes, lights, smoke double kick blasting 100% of the time and the lowest tuning in the southern hemisphere...you got a long way to go before my master lets you in the dark realm!

[/shameless plug]

[Solus]

This guy is either joking around or suffers from some kind of mental illness. It's pointless to debate with this person as he obviously needs therapy and maybe some kind of medication.

Some questions pater. Have you ever been told you have a mental problem? Have you been diagnosed as bipolar, or perhaps schizophrenic? What does your family have to say about your belief in being the antichrist? Are you seeing a doctor?

please don't take these questions as an insult the goal is for an ill person to get help. Here are some links you should look at see if this applies to yourself:
http://www.schizophrenia.
com/earlysigns.htm (http://www.schizophrenia.com/earlysigns.htm)

Taken from the above website: pay particular attention to bold part

Examples of Delusions----

The most common type of delusion or false beliefs are paranoid delusions. These are persecutory in nature and take many forms:

--Overpowering, intense feeling that people are talking about you, looking at you
--Overpowering, intense feeling you are being watched, followed, and spied on (tracking devices, implants, hidden cameras)
--Thinking that someone is trying to poison your food
--Thinking people are working together to harass you
--Thinking that something is controlling you- i.e. an electronic implant
--Thinking that people can read your mind/ or control your thoughts
--Thinking that your thoughts are being broadcast over the radio or tv
--Delusions of reference- thinking that random events convey a special meaning to you. An example is that a newspaper headline or a license plate has a hidden meaning for you to figure out. That they are signs trying to tell you something.
--Religious delusions- that you are Jesus, God, a prophet, or the antichrist.
--Delusions of grandeur- the belief that you have an important mission, special purpose, or are an unrecognized genius, or famous person.
--Delusions that someone, often a famous person, is in love with you when in reality they aren't. Also called erotomania or de Clerembault syndrome.

[Pater]

Solus; To answer your questions, No I do not suffer fro any mental illness, at least the psychologist I talked to a few times 3 years ago told me so,I visited her by my own will to set some things straight, and she heard me saying everything I believe and think about who I am etc.

She did not, and I asked her, that I am neither delusional nor Schizophrenic in Nature, she did not mentioned psychotic drugs and has made no remarks that my thought process is very unusual other than the fact that I identity myself with popular identities that most people do no believe in as being real. She said it is not unusual for some people to be like I am very emphatic and symphtetic with the suffering of others, and I am not alone in trying to consider of believe that there are solutions to the world problems.The difference between myself an most people was that I simply take a role of being equal to other personages that are "meant" to change the world if they were to exists etc. I had no risk of developing schizophrenia since it mostly is genetic in nature, and no relatives of mine have had that disorder.

An Yes my family know about my faith, but I am not from a religious family, we come from Romania and we are all God fearing people, but as my Father is a doctor he seeks out the scientific proofs of life etc and not the religious parts, my brother is also a doctor and my Mother a teacher.And no, they are my family so they do not think much about who I am or am not, they love me as I am, Bu my uncle and one of my cousins are Roman Catholic priests, and funny enough I myself worked as a clergy in the Norwegian State Protestant Church for 2 years more than a year ago :)

So to reply the points you made, I will reply only to those that I feel I can recognize myself with to some degree to keep your own delusion alive :)

--Thinking that your thoughts are being broadcast over the radio or tv

My thoughts are not new to the world, everything any person comes up with or thinks is uniqe to him or her is in fact in most if not all cases proven to be not so, many scientists realize their "discoveries" are not new because others have found them before them, so yes my thoughts and beliefs are "broadcasted" by others, how else do you believe prophetical fullfilment happens?

--Delusions of reference- thinking that random events convey a special meaning to you. An example is that a newspaper headline or a license plate has a hidden meaning for you to figure out. That they are signs trying to tell you something.

Well this is a question of believing in syncronicity or not, I do, and random events are more likely to convey a message than those which are pre planed in advance. Reading in all kind of media is meant to convey a messages, that what reading is all about, if you do not get ANY message from reading any text that actually has a story line in it, then I guess you have another disorder. But I agree that there are not many people who have the ability to "read between the lines" seeing a hidden message which not necessarily is conscious by the writer is a gift in my view. That is to say that many news stories are very superficial and just report on the surface of matters. Having an open mind and a good historical know how allows a person to understand much more of any given message than a person with a simple set of mind.

Also, license plates are a very funny way for me to see how reality, yes my reality relates to my thinking or present situations, at least when you remember that 666, or other triple digits etc are relevant to the wisdom of Gematria etc which I also deal with. For me 666 is a positive number, so when I see it on license plates it is in my view not a coincidence, I usually see it many times also, but all depends on the frequency of myself being on the road or near cars of course, but I also see it in other situations a swell, but anyway, the nature of the number 666 is a deep understanding which not even I have been revealed the full encompassing nature of yet, but yes that number does always give me a message........

--Religious delusions- that you are Jesus, God, a prophet, or the antichrist.

Do I need to answer to this one?

--Delusions of grandeur- the belief that you have an important mission, special purpose, or are an unrecognized genius, or famous person.

If I would not consider my mission to be important I would not care about it at all, the purpose of it is still neither this revealed to me in full, because there are many sides to the mission and thus its purpose is complex and probably only simple in the mind of God, but suffering in the world and Gods suffering is the main issue when it comes to identifying any purpose of my mission. I wish I was genius, have not had any test done and do not feel I need to either.

Hope you are more relaxed now :)

--------
Bellow is some info on the Jerusalem Syndrome, or False Messiah Syndrome, something that could explain that not ALL people showing sign of being delusional are in fact just that.
--------

The Jerusalem syndrome is the name given to a group of mental phenomena involving the presence of either religiously themed obsessive ideas, delusions or other psychosis-like experiences, that are triggered by, or lead to, a visit to the city of Jerusalem or Israel itself.

The best known, although not the most prevalent manifestation of the Jerusalem syndrome, is the phenomenon whereby a person who seems previously balanced and devoid of any signs of psychopathology, becomes psychotic after arriving in Jerusalem. The psychosis is characterised by an intense religious theme and typically resolves to full recovery after a few weeks, or after being removed from the area.

Dr. Yair Bar El et al. claimed that there is a specific syndrome which emerges in tourists who had no previous psychiatric history. However this has been disputed, especially by Dr. Moshe Kalian and Prof. Eliezer Witztum. They stressed that nearly all of the tourists who demonstrated the described behaviours were already mentally ill prior to their arrival to Jerusalem. Further, of the small proportion alleged to have exhibited spontaneous psychosis after arrival in Jerusalem, there was no evidence presented that they had previously been well.

The syndrome was first clinically described in the 1930s by Jerusalem psychiatrist Heinz Herman and pertains to behaviors exhibited by some visitors to Jerusalem. Whether or not these behaviors specifically arise from visiting Jerusalem is debated, as similar behaviors have been noted at other places of religious and historical importance such as Mecca and Rome (see Stendhal syndrome). It is known that cases of the syndrome had already been observed during the Middle Ages, since it was described in the itinerary of Felix Fabri and the biography of Margery Kempe. Other cases were described in the vast literature of visitors to Jerusalem during the 19th century.

The majority of Jerusalem Syndrome patients are harmless and are usually regarded with pity and/or amusement. The most significant exception occurred in August of 1969, when an Australian tourist, Michael Rohan, overwhelmed with a feeling of divine mission, set fire to the al-Aqsa Mosque. His act was followed by citywide rioting. These events helped form the premise of a movie called The Jerusalem Syndrome. Rohan was both delusional and religious, but he met none of the other supposed signs of the "syndrome".
Bar-El et al. suggested that at the approach of the year 2000, large numbers of otherwise normal visitors might be affected by a combination of their presence in Jerusalem and the religious significance of the millennium, causing a massive increase in the numbers of Jerusalem syndrome admissions to hospital. Despite a slight increase in tourist hospitalisations with the rise in total tourism to Jerusalem during the year 2000, the feared epidemic of Jerusalem syndrome never materialised.


The 'classic' Jerusalem syndrome, where a visit to Jerusalem seems to trigger an intense religious psychosis that resolves quickly or on departure, has been a subject of debate in the medical literature[2][3][4]. Most of the discussion has centred on whether this definition of the Jerusalem syndrome is a distinct form of psychosis, or simply a re-expression of a previously existing psychotic illness that was not picked up by the medical authorities in Israel.

In response to this, Bar-El et al. classified the syndrome[1] into three major types to reflect the different types of interactions between a visit to Jerusalem and unusual or psychosis-related thought processes. However Kalian and Witztum have objected that Bar-El et al. presented no evidence to justify the detailed typology and prognosis presented, and that the types in fact seem to be unrelated rather than different aspects of a syndrome.

Type I

Jerusalem syndrome imposed on a previous psychotic illness. This refers to individuals already diagnosed as having a psychotic illness before their visit to Jerusalem. They have typically gone to the city because of the influence of delusional religious ideas, often with a goal or mission in mind which they believe needs to be completed on arrival or during their stay. For example, an affected person may believe himself to be an important historical religious figure, or may be influenced by important religious ideas or concepts (such as causing the second coming of Christ).

Type II

Jerusalem syndrome superimposed on and complicated by idiosyncratic ideas. This does not necessarily take the form of mental illness, and may simply be a culturally anomalous obsession with the significance of Jerusalem, either as an individual, or as part of a small religious group with idiosyncratic spiritual beliefs.

Type III

Jerusalem syndrome as a discrete form, uncompounded by previous mental illness. This describes the best known type, whereby a previously mentally balanced person becomes psychotic after arriving in Jerusalem. The psychosis is characterised by an intense religious character and typically resolves to full recovery after a few weeks, or after being removed from the locality. It shares some features with the diagnostic category of a 'brief psychotic episode', although a distinct pattern of behaviours has been noted:
Anxiety, agitation, nervousness and tension, plus other unspecified reactions.

Declaration of the desire to split away from the group or the family and to tour Jerusalem alone. Tourist guides aware of the Jerusalem syndrome and of the significance of such declarations may at this point refer the tourist to an institution for psychiatric evaluation in an attempt to preempt the subsequent stages of the syndrome. If unattended, these stages are usually unavoidable.

A need to be clean and pure: obsession with taking baths and showers; compulsive fingernail and toenail cutting.
Preparation, often with the aid of hotel bed-linen, of a long, ankle-length, toga-like gown, which is always white.

The need to scream, shout, or sing out loud psalms, verses from the Bible, religious hymns or spirituals. Manifestations of this type serve as a warning to hotel personnel and tourist guides, who should then attempt to have the tourist taken for professional treatment. Failing this, the two last stages will develop.

A procession or march to one of Jerusalem's holy places.
Delivery of a ‘sermon’ in a holy place. The sermon is usually very confused and based on an unrealistic plea to humankind to adopt a more wholesome, moral, simple way of life.

Bar-El et al. reported 42 such cases over a period of 13 years, but in no case were they able to actually confirm that the condition was temporary.

Prevalence

During a period of 13 years (1980-1993) for which admissions to the Kfar Shaul Mental Health Centre in Jerusalem were analysed, it was reported[1] that 1200 tourists with severe, Jerusalem-themed mental problems were referred to this clinic. Of these, 470 were admitted to hospital. On average, 100 such tourists have been seen annually, 40 of them requiring admission to hospital. About 2 million tourists visit Jerusalem each year. Kalian and Witztum note that as a proportion of the total numbers of tourists visiting the city, this is not significantly different from any other city

[petre]

To move back to the topic of the challenge, have you had any luck contacting JREF directly about suggestions for your application, or do you have further questions you feel need answering before making such contact?

[Pater]

Yes I have made contact, and still wonder how many predictions I would have to make for both the tests? and do I have to explain both predictions at the same time on my application?

Thanks

[petre]

Yes I have made contact, and still wonder how many predictions I would have to make for both the tests? and do I have to explain both predictions at the same time on my application?

Thanks

Fantastic, it sounds like you're making good progress! Let us know what the reply is. I'm guessing an exact number will be difficult to give without knowing what the specific predictions are. Probably going to be a lot of back-and-forth on lists of predictions until they think there's a sufficiently-unlikely set.

Also, for the curious, there is indeed information available on the WHO site about deaths from H5N1:

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/country/cases_table_2006_09_14/en/index.html

Which shows 144 deaths total currently (perhaps updated since his post of 143).

Assuming a conservative increase in deaths similar to what is shown in the past 4 years, a forecast evaluation puts the time frame for reaching 1000 deaths around 2011-2012:

Year Deaths Total From
2003 4 4 Data
2004 32 36 Data
2005 42 78 Data
2006 88 166 (estimate from 66 so far)
2007 107 273 forecast
2008 135 408 forecast
2009 162.1 570.1 forecast
2010 189.2 759.3 forecast
2011 216.3 975.6 forecast
2012 243.4 1219 forecast

The mortality rate of confirmed cases seems to be higher than 50%, with acute respitory failure occuring in no more than 13 days. If this prediction is to be true, it's going to either become less deadly somehow, or spready very widely in under 13 days (unless the WHO is in the habit of declaring pandemics with fewer than 2000 confirmed cases).

It will be interesting to see how my basic numerical estimates match up against biblical predictions for accuracy.

[saizai]

I am reminded of this quote:
"I find the Law of Fives to be more and more manifest the harder I look."
- Principia Discorida, p. 23 (or 16): http://principiadiscordia.com/book/23.php

[William Smith]

Pater, who did you communicate with a JREF?

Would you mind posting the communication on this forum?

[Bradk3]

I'm really confused, Pater. If you're the Antichrist, you're doing a rather poor job. A simple Bible search found the following:

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
(1 John 4:2-3 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=English&version=NIV&passage=1+John+4:2-3) NIV)

Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--
he denies the Father and the Son.
(1 John 2:22 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=English&version=NIV&passage=1+John+2:22) NIV)

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into
the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
(2 John 7 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=English&version=NIV&passage=2+John+7) NIV)

And yet, you profess a belief in Christ, so you can't be the Antichrist. Perhaps you're wrong?

[saizai]

Bradk3 - Logically... your quotes show that (deny christ) -> antichrist.

They don't show antichrist -> (deny christ); that's converse fallacy. :)

[Gr8wight]

Solus; To answer your questions, No I do not suffer fro any mental illness, at least the psychologist I talked to a few times 3 years ago told me so,I visited her by my own will to set some things straight, and she heard me saying everything I believe and think about who I am etc.

So, you told her, explicitly, that you believed you were The AntiChrist, and she told you that you were perfectly normal?

I call shenanigans. You're either lying about what you told her, or lying about what she said about it. But, hey, we shouldn't be surprised by that, should we? After all, you're The AntiChrist. Satan is called The Prince of Lies.

[Grimoire]

Pater, since you claim to be able to predict the future, please predict the winning numbers for this Saturday's Powerball draw. If you are correct, I, and everyone else, will acclaim you to be the antichrist.

Thank you.

[Solus]

I don't why some consider contiuning questioning this person about the challenge. Anyone who says that they are THE ANTICHRIST obviously has some issues. It seems to be poor spirits to encourage this man's delusions.
This isn't some jerk psychic that preys on people's weakness, this is a person with obvious delusions the unanmious response here should be to go see a doctor.

Even fundy christians would look at someone like they were from another planet if they started saying they were the antichrist. It's wasting the JREF's time to tell him to apply. There is being openminded and then is there just being ridiculous.

I don't know what Jerusalem syndrome has to do with this issue. It's not possible to judge an illness via the internet so I would encourage you, Pater to go to a psychologist or even any doctor and tell them what you are telling us at this forum. Tell him/her that you are the antichrist and you can predict the future, see what their response is.

I've been manic myself and I've thought I was a messenger from god (I'm atheist shows you how wierd that was). But that was just because I was ill.

Can you explain why you think you are the antichirst? Do you feel some speical power? What exactly causes you to believe you are the antichirst?

[Bradk3]

Bradk3 - Logically... your quotes show that (deny christ) -> antichrist.

They don't show antichrist -> (deny christ); that's converse fallacy. :)
Blast! Stupid logical fallacies...

Ah well, maybe he's the Antichrist after all...

[calebprime]

Bradk3 - Logically... your quotes show that (deny christ) -> antichrist.

They don't show antichrist -> (deny christ); that's converse fallacy. :)

took me awhile to be sure, but sazai's right, as usual. btw thanks for straightening out my confusion about placebos.

I don't why some consider contiuning questioning this person about the challenge. Anyone who says that they are THE ANTICHRIST obviously has some issues. It seems to be poor spirits to encourage this man's delusions.

...

I've been manic myself and I've thought I was a messenger from god (I'm atheist shows you how wierd that was). But that was just because I was ill.

Can you explain why you think you are the antichirst? Do you feel some speical power? What exactly causes you to believe you are the antichirst?

great start, but then, aren't you asking for another long tirade? you forgot to add: "in 25 words or less" !

[saizai]

Blast! Stupid logical fallacies...

Ah well, maybe he's the Antichrist after all...

Yeah; ain't logic a bugger.

Maybe he is. I sure have no way of proving otherwise. Of course, it's suspiciously similar to the claims of people who have been proven not to be the antichrist, and who have been helped by antipsychotic medications...

... then again, maybe he's the one true antichrist?

If so, I think Satan is screwed, 'cause he obviously chose a poor specimen to become a world leader.

[fuelair]

As you clearly have understood to to a number of agencies being responsible for stating the number of deaths at any given time, I will not.

On the other hand, it is only the World Health Organization that has the right to announce that the Pandemic has started, after which all Governments will announce it to their people , and they alone are those who must verify all other sources and clarify the number of deaths etc.

The Pandemic may very well start tonight, and by the time the WHO has verified for instance 800 deaths, a 1000 more might be sick and dying within 48 hours. But on can presume that if the number of deaths goes from 143 to 1000 in less than a weeks time, then the Pandemic has without doubt started sometime that past week.

I do not want to say when this can or will not occur, but my statement "will start, before 1000 people have died" should be enough to be counted as a valid prediction, at least for the forum thread :) And no I do not predict that humans will bring the disease under control with vaccinations and treatment, so the time span in which the pandemic will unfold after it starts will be very short not a long period of time.

"Could you restate that as "On or before (date)"

There is no use in predicting a date for it will as I have explained no be possible to verify, once the pandemic start, days will become very short in the mind of people and hours very long. Knowing the rate of deaths and the rate of which new people are getting sick will be the only sign as to approximately when the pandemic in fact started and where.


Dear "tojohndillonesq"

H5N1 is one of many strains, there are even many strains of H5N1, but the term Bird Flu is the same as the term Avian Influenza, they both are the same disease! There are 16 H types, each with up to 9 N subtypes, yielding a potential for 144 different H and N combinations. In addition, all AI viruses fall into one of 2 pathotypes: low (LPAI) and high (HPAI) pathogenicity, based on how dangerous to poultry.

-------------

"So, Pater, you're the supposed anti-christ and your only demonstratable "power" is to vaguely predict events? You really have nothing else going for you? "

No! And yes I I have considered possibility that I am NOT the anti-christ, but indeed another mundane human like everyone else.

But I am also sure that most people back in the days of Jesus had much greater belief in miracles that present day living people......And If I am ever told that another person has proven or been accepted to be the Antichrist, then I will be happy, for mind you it is a ministry of a heavy burden to bear which few understand the nature of.....but even if that were to happen, I guess then I would just take the position of the False Prophet instead.... Get the point?

"Pater: You would be AMAZED at how open minded some of the folks in this forum are, and I think I speak for many of us when I say we would love to see you set a good first test and pass it!"

Thank you, I know you would be happy on my behalf, and you know this has been a major issue in my faith over the years. Must I, or must I not have other people believe in me in order for me to be able to perform what is meant to become true by the prophecies of the Bible. Well I have understood that having thousands believing in you a little, is the same as having just a few believing in you allot, but if my own faith in the end is not strong enough, then I will never be able to prove the goodness of God and his purpose of creation and the existence of his suffering.

Pater

No offense , son, but I'll take the CDC over the WHO. And feel free to put me down as an unbeliever. Oh, feel free to strike me with lightning while you are at it - as the SONO'GOD that should be no problem at all. (This is not a challenge, as I have no belief in the silliness, just a statement).:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Pater]

"Pater, who did you communicate with a JREF?"

With Jeff Wagg

His comments are in my second post on this thread, other comments are small.

"but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist"

Am I a spirit? Yes I do HAVE a spirit, But the last time I touched something, now <- the W key, I was still physical, hence there is a difference between the Spirit of the antichrist which was already back then in the world, and the person Antichrist, which manifests that spirit in himself.

"Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist-- he denies the Father and the Son."

Yes, I claim that I am the Messiah, what does this mean? Very simple, that I claim that Jesus was not the Messiah, no different view than any Jew alive.

And Do you really think I deny the Father, Just because I say "I AM Pater",( Latin word for Father)? If I say I am the Father, am I wrong in doing so?

As every Jew knows, the name Christ is simply the Greek translation of the Hebrew Messiah, whom the Jews expected to come in God's name to save them. The Messiah, or Christ, is the one anointed by God and qualified to carry out a certain work in God's name.

Word study may help to understand the prefix "anti" in the name Antichrist. Antichrist is against the belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, he is not opposed to, Jesus Christ himself. This tells us the essence of what Antichrist is: he is not in opposition to God's Christ. He is neither in opposition to Christ personally; he is not against Christ's Word, Holy Scripture. Jesus himself spoke of Antichrist, when speaking of the Son Of Man, yet many Christians interpret this as Jesus showing humility, avoiding using titles like Messiah and Son of God when speaking of himself. Furthermore, because Christ's mission is to show the name of Jehovah God to men by showing Himself to them (see John 14:8,9, Revelation 13:6 and John 17:6, ), Antichrist's mission is to show the name of God "Pater" to men by showing Himself to them. Again;

John 5:43 Jesus said: "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive".

"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."

Yes MANY are called the antichrists, but what is important about his flesh?

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood,
ye have no life in you." (John 6:53)

Sp anyone not taking the sacrament and thereby live, are not able to acknowledge that he has come in the flesh.

------
Yes I did tell my psychologist I thought I was the Antichrist and Messiah, but also that in my mind when reading Biblical scriptures I identify with various persons depending on what parts I read, for instance Moses was many times "My mind" Abraham "My Genes" Melchisedec "My Birth Right" Gabriel "my will" etc, but none of these had a duration of thought longer than they would accompany the story line in order for myself to see the "red thread" or whole picture better. But this is presumably my new neuron pathways being created as I go along awakening into my true self :)

I told my Psychologist many many things, I cannot repeat them all here, but I have told you approximately her conclusions, call me a liar if you want that is your choice, but I, hardly see what I have to gain by lying to anyone, if any thing persecution and hate will arise at a later time if some people in fact start to claim I Am the Antichrist, sadly this is due to preconceived notions of what Antichrist is supposed to do in the world, with hope I will get some people to know better before others start to judge me in a wrong way.....


Grimoire, This Saturday's Powerball draw is not in my interest, and even if it were, I think I have a slightly or largely different conception of what predictions and prophecies are, In my mind these are not of the same nature.
Prophecies are not mere predictions from a prophet on Gods behalf to warn of people of impending judgements etc. Prophecy changes the future before hand and actually is a power and gift given from God to prophets to speak in his name as they see fit. Mostly God commands exactly what they shall say, but other times they must trust their faith in saying the right things, thus a prophecy can change the course of the future according to what a prophet has said, and thus it is not a prediction of something pre planned by God but something that was set in motion and planned when the prophet spoke those things, thus they happen as the prophet commands nature to fulfil his prophecies etc. So your Powerball prediction request as you understand really dose not do the world any good except perhaps make some of you in this forum wealthy.

An by the way, It is not my aim and has never been, to convince anybody that I am the Antichrist or the Messiah, I claim I am them both yes! But I leave it up to people hearing me out, to make up their own beliefs in concern to my claims. I am interested in the challenge, because there are things relating to my ministry which I need to understand, and if the challenge at the same time proves me right or wrong in my faith, then I am glad for it. Because people mostly fear to even believe in me the slightest bit, they fear themselves and other Christians not me, and who could ever consider themselves to be a follower of the Antichrist?, most people probably think that must be insane indeed, especially if you are Christian in this modern world, yet still in this world all imaginable occupations be them sinful or not, get followers and appreciation in hundreds, and thousand and so on.

"Even fundy christians would look at someone like they were from another planet if they started saying they were the antichrist."

You are very right, this is why I do not tell them who I am face to face, at least I do not if I do not feel they can handle it or are very open minded and not full of doctrines that overshadow their minds. Sadly most Christians if they were to meet Jesus today among them, would probably tell him he is delusional and that he should seek help, and when he eventuially comes back, they will probably say HE is the Antichrist!!!...... Most Christians are so worked up about their salvation and non sinful present lives, they have totally set aside and want no more in their hearts the Kingdom of God to arrive or the name of the Lord to be preached out loud.

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. (I Thessalonians 5:1-8)

"Tell him/her that you are the antichrist and you can predict the future"

Again, I do not recall saying in any of my posts that I can predict the future? I have said I whish to join the challenge on the basis that I can make some of the biblical prophecies come true, or at least give evidence that the biblical prophecies are true, by predicting events that will happen that may not be clear at first in the view of others, that they were indeed prophecies coming true.

And Solus, If you ever felt or thought you were a messenger of God, try not to supress your message whatever it was. and your illness whatever that was, was probably a minor issue your physical self had with "paranormal" or Godly intervention with your spirit. Our bodies are imperfect, having perfect wisdom in our spirits, does create "normal" reactions so that we don loose our sense of reality.If you indeed are a messenger of God, I am sure you will soon get back to that sense.

"Can you explain why you think you are the antichirst? Do you feel some speical power?"

I believe I am the Antichrist due to many revelations I have received. This may be fart in the wind in some of your views, but remember that In the Quran there are no miracles unlike the Bible, the only Miracle spoken about in that book, is, the Revelation of the Quran to Muhammend through Gabriel, of course Gabriel who visited persons also in the OT and NT. Is God confused?

"What exactly causes you to believe you are the antichirst?"

But what exactly causes me to believe so is a good question, which I have no good answer for, I am not Almighty to know the answer for that question, but I do think there is a relation between all things that exists, and that we share a collective consciousness and sub consciousness, so I could very well say that you, and each of you are one of the causes to my whole faith, which mind you is still developing.

Special powers? None that I know of, other than spiritual powers :)perhaps that is just as good for now, I do not think I have enough grace in me yet to handle some powers yet. But if there is one that I like to think about, its psychokinesis on all levels:) But dont worry, I will let you all know when I can lift any of your arms or levitate myself so that I can mimic the second coming coming from the clouds:).

"then again, maybe he's the one true antichrist?
If so, I think Satan is screwed, 'cause he obviously chose a poor specimen to become a world leader."

Well, as I also believe I am the Messiah, I guess you must think God also is screwed? When you say "specimen" I am reminded of the word "seed"

Genesis 12
2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

"And feel free to put me down as an unbeliever. Oh, feel free to strike me with lightning while you are at it - as the SONO'GOD that should be no problem at all. "

Why should I punishe you for not believing in me? :) you have not done anyting wrong against me, but If it were so that you one day change your mind and believe in me, around the same time after I claim according to the Bible that I am God,("...the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) then I can tell you now, I cannot at that time quartantee which action God may or will take against you, if you were earlier until that day a follower and faithful person of God,.........

Ps,This is the first forum in which I really try to explain myself!

Pater

God Bless you all.

[saizai]

"then again, maybe he's the one true antichrist?
If so, I think Satan is screwed, 'cause he obviously chose a poor specimen to become a world leader."

Well, as I also believe I am the Messiah, I guess you must think God also is screwed?

Buddy, if you're the Messiah, we're all screwed.

[timokay]

Can't we just have Sally and Pater debate in each other in a barrel, near Niagra falls?

[saizai]

Can't we just have Sally and Pater debate in each other in a barrel, near Niagra falls?

Ooh, I'd like to see that.

I suspect their claims are not mutually exclusive though. Sally says god exists and god is love. Pater says he is the antichrist and the messiah, but does not seem to make a claim about love.

They might disagree about Pater's messianicity though.

[timokay]

Ooh, I'd like to see that.

I suspect their claims are not mutually exclusive though. Sally says god exists and god is love. Pater says he is the antichrist and the messiah, but does not seem to make a claim about love.

They might disagree about Pater's messianicity though.

I just had a chilling thought. If together, they might god forbid make babies.
Ok. Two barrels. They can communicate through esp.

[saizai]

I just had a chilling thought. If together, they might god forbid make babies.
Ok. Two barrels. They can communicate through esp.

Now, now, be fair. Neither claimed ESP.

And I don't remember any prophecies about the antichrist having kids...

[timokay]

Now, now, be fair. Neither claimed ESP.

And I don't remember any prophecies about the antichrist having kids...

I remember an ancient scroll that translated...
"Here's a story.......

about a man named Brady....."

[fuelair]

.

Just a completely side note - So I am moving down the page and see passing PETRE,PATER,PETRE and I can't help thinking of little feet.

[William Smith]

"Pater, who did you communicate with a JREF?"

With Jeff Wagg

His comments are in my second post on this thread, other comments are small.
...


Pater, to ensure transparency and comprehensibility please use the "Quote" button in the bottom right corner of a post.



I do not consider for even a second that you told your psychologist what you describe here and she reacted the way she did.



Pater, can we expect more scriptural interpretation on your part - which most people here most likely do not care about, because it's not related to the Challenge - or do you intend to:

1. Make one claim (I guess it's: "I AM THE ANTICHRIST!", right?)
2. Explain how to prove it
3. Propose a protocol or a test procedure to ensure the validity of said proof.

Please try to keep your statements brief, simple and strictly Challenge-related.

[Geek Goddess]

I completely skipped over Pater's long posts, because I knew in advance I would be bored silly, but I feel somewhat sad that there is this guy, somewhere in the world, sitting alone in a room lit only by the glow of his monitor, writing all that down, and even more sad that he might (a) believe himself, or (b) have nothing better in his life to do than to sit in that lonely room and write all that stuff just to engage other people in pseudo-conversation.

[Pater]

Greek Godess, perhaps you should apply for the challenge as a clairvoyant? :

[Geek Goddess]

Greek Godess, perhaps you should apply for the challenge as a clairvoyant? :


There is no such thing as clairvoyance. It was simple reasoning . Your short posts were boring and (in my opinion) pathetic, so I made a rational decision that I would find your long posts boring, as I said.

Or perhaps you feel I am clairvoyant because of my comments about why I feel sad for you? Was I on the mark with either (a) or (b)? It wasn't clairvoyance, it was reasoning based on my observations and experiences. No woo-woo involved.

[William Smith]

Greek Godess, perhaps you should apply for the challenge as a clairvoyant? :

Does your statement imply that she was "right on the money"?

[webfusion]

There is a glaring error in Pater's Post #67 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1926266&postcount=67) --- this single mistake leads me to understand clearly that pater cannot possibly be who he claims to be. A minor oversight such as this is evidence of the lack of power to be all-knowing and all-seeing.

The mistake?

He says that Jeff Wagg's answers (as communicated) are in "my second post on this thread" ----

This is demonstrably untrue.

Pater's second post in this thread is absolutely not POSTING # 12 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1919330&postcount=12) and is actually POSTING # 4 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1918668&postcount=4) which contains just astounding gibberish about 666 and animals.

Just to keep the record straight.

You're welcome.
Carry on...

[Gr8wight]

There is a glaring error in Pater's Post #67 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1926266&postcount=67) --- this single mistake leads me to understand clearly that pater cannot possibly be who he claims to be. A minor oversight such as this is evidence of the lack of power to be all-knowing and all-seeing.

The mistake?

He says that Jeff Wagg's answers (as communicated) are in "my second post on this thread" ----

This is demonstrably untrue.

Pater's second post in this thread is absolutely not POSTING # 12 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1919330&postcount=12) and is actually POSTING # 4 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1918668&postcount=4) which contains just astounding gibberish about 666 and animals.

Just to keep the record straight.

You're welcome.
Carry on...

Thanks for your evidence that Pater cannot possibly be who he claims to be. Because, you know, some of us weren't sure.
;)

[Pater]

i didnt check what post i posted jeffs reply , i thougt it was the second, anyway.....

heres my prediction, Jeff says:
"Can you come up with something much less likely to happen based on current world events?"

I am trying to consider the way I must formulate my "prophecy" for the
first preliminary test before I apply to the challenge, and was wondering if
the claims bellow would be considered enough for the first test?

Also I wonder, must I give all predictions of prophetical statements at once
for both the tests, or will you require the additional predictions only at
the time if I were to pass the first tests?

Please let me know if there is anything more I must consider if for instance
my claim bellow is not explained well enough etc

Thanks for your help.
Pater
-----------------------------------

Prophecy- Prediction, Ex 1
-----------------------------------
Prediction based upon;

Isaiah 17 :1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from
being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
-----------------------------------

Prediction 1. What will happen?

Aerial bombardments directed against Syria. Led and started by Israel,
supported by the US military.

Prediction 2. When will this happen?

At the end of the first quarter of 2007. In the month of March, after the
7th and before the 20th of March. Late evening Syrian time around 11:11 PM.

Prediction 3. Where will this happen?

Syria, Damascus, concentrated around borders with Iran.

Prediction 4. Effects from this "war"

-1.Syrian military ground movement into Lebanon.
-2.Hizbollah commencing of rocket Launches into Israel.
-3.The Russian and Chinese will NOT intervene militarily on the side of
Syria or Israel and the US.
------------------------------------

Since this is a prophetical claim, only time will prove or disprove it!

A protocol & test procedure to ensure the validity of said proof;JREF must
watch the international news......

-A failure in my test, in my view would result in 3 out of 4 of the main
predictions above not being fulfilled according the my claims.

-A success in my test, would result, in my view, that 3 out of 4 of the main
predictions above being fulfilled according to my claims.

Ps, mind you, my predictions , can or cannot go wrong, why? because God decides what people shall believe.....

Pater

[SkepticScott]

Ps, mind you, my predictions , can or cannot go wrong, why? because God decides what people shall believe.....That's what's known as a non-falisifiable claim. No matter what happens, you can say it supports your prediction. As such, it's worthless.

[Geek Goddess]

Greek Godess, perhaps you should apply for the challenge as a clairvoyant? :

Actually, that's "Geek" Goddess to you. Apparently being *whatever* you claim to be doesn't imbibe you with grammatical or typographical skills.

[petre]

Prediction 1. What will happen?

Aerial bombardments directed against Syria. Led and started by Israel,
supported by the US military.

Prediction 2. When will this happen?

At the end of the first quarter of 2007. In the month of March, after the
7th and before the 20th of March. Late evening Syrian time around 11:11 PM.

Prediction 3. Where will this happen?

Syria, Damascus, concentrated around borders with Iran.

Prediction 4. Effects from this "war"

-1.Syrian military ground movement into Lebanon.
-2.Hizbollah commencing of rocket Launches into Israel.
-3.The Russian and Chinese will NOT intervene militarily on the side of
Syria or Israel and the US.
------------------------------------

Since this is a prophetical claim, only time will prove or disprove it!

A protocol & test procedure to ensure the validity of said proof;JREF must
watch the international news......

-A failure in my test, in my view would result in 3 out of 4 of the main
predictions above not being fulfilled according the my claims.

-A success in my test, would result, in my view, that 3 out of 4 of the main
predictions above being fulfilled according to my claims.

Pater

Well, the success/failure criteria leaves 2 out of 4 correct in an undefined middle-ground. I'd say lumping that into failure is the best, otherwise the claim turns into "1 and 4 were wrong, but there was a car accident in Damascus in mid-March so 2 and 3 were correct and I was right!"

However, even allowing one of the above to slide has some problems:
A. Without prediciton #1, the total prediction becomes "Something will happen in mid-March in Damascus that will be followed by Syrian troops in Lebanon, Hisbollah firing rockets into Israel, and Russia & China will not respond with their military". I don't know if there were Syrian troops in Lebanon during or at some point after the most recent conflict there, but if so then that situation would have already matched this prediction. Making a prediction that a situation which occurred once already would probably not fit the definition of "much less likely" than the previous prediction.

B. Without prediction #2, it's essentially the same as the total prediction, but with no time limit (could happen 300 years from now). Given the strife over the last few thousand years, it doesn't seem too unlikely that at some point the events described above could happen in mid-March of some year.

C. Without prediction #3, it's essentially the same prediction, only Israel can bomb any city in Syria (since it's still specified in #1).

D. Without prediciton #4, it differs only in the response to Israel bombing Damascus.

If you could claim solidly #1 and #2, and then either #3 or #4 (saying that either C. or D. I listed above are true), that might be specific enough. Such a prediction would have a definate time limit, and a specific description of exactly what event will occur within that time limit.

That's just my personal opinion though. I'd think Israel would be much more likely to bomb Iran first, though even then the prediction could still come true should Israel then decide to bomb Syria as well.

Perhaps what would really do well is something that seems really unlikely, like the Pope converting to Islam in the next year, or Cher getting elected president in 2008. Predictions that disease will spread or that two countries that hate each other will go to war aren't really going to fall into the "unlikely" category unless you really pin down the specifics and hold to them.

[Cuddles]

Prophecy- Prediction, Ex 1
-----------------------------------
Prediction based upon;

Isaiah 17 :1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from
being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
-----------------------------------

Prediction 1. What will happen?

Aerial bombardments directed against Syria. Led and started by Israel,
supported by the US military.

Prediction 2. When will this happen?

At the end of the first quarter of 2007. In the month of March, after the
7th and before the 20th of March. Late evening Syrian time around 11:11 PM.

Prediction 3. Where will this happen?

Syria, Damascus, concentrated around borders with Iran.

Prediction 4. Effects from this "war"

-1.Syrian military ground movement into Lebanon.
-2.Hizbollah commencing of rocket Launches into Israel.
-3.The Russian and Chinese will NOT intervene militarily on the side of
Syria or Israel and the US.
------------------------------------

Since this is a prophetical claim, only time will prove or disprove it!

A protocol & test procedure to ensure the validity of said proof;JREF must
watch the international news......

-A failure in my test, in my view would result in 3 out of 4 of the main
predictions above not being fulfilled according the my claims.

-A success in my test, would result, in my view, that 3 out of 4 of the main
predictions above being fulfilled according to my claims.

Ps, mind you, my predictions , can or cannot go wrong, why? because God decides what people shall believe.....

Pater

First, I should point out that the JREF says it will not accept predictions based on analysis of books, so you'd be best off just making predictions and not trying to give an explanation. I would also say it's a bit odd that the messiah needs an old book to make predictions rather than knowing everything already, being divine and all that.

Secondly, this predicition will never be accepted. In order to win a million dollars you will have to prove that you can predict the future. Predicitng a war in an unstable region with a history of thousands of years of conflict that has just had a minor war just means that you have watched the news.

Thirdly, if you include sentences saying you may or may not get it right, then, as pointed out, it is impossible to be wrong and no-one will bother looking at your claim at all. This also implies that you are not sure that you can predict the future and are probably just wasting everyone's time.

[William Smith]

...
Ps, mind you, my predictions , can or cannot go wrong, why? because God decides what people shall believe.....

Pater

What does this mean, Pater?
What "can or cannot go wrong, why? because God decides what people shall believe....."?

I agree with Cuddles.
This prediction/text interpretation hardly proves "paranormal, supernatural or occult power". It seems more like what one may call an "educated guess".
Also, the JREF Challenge does not test for text interpretation.

Unless you come up with something precise (water to wine, walking on water, darkness at noon, etc.) I will remain convinced that you have no extraordinary powers whatsoever.

[Sally]

Since this is a prophetical claim, only time will prove or disprove it!

A protocol & test procedure to ensure the validity of said proof;JREF must
watch the international news......

-A failure in my test, in my view would result in 3 out of 4 of the main
predictions above not being fulfilled according the my claims.

-A success in my test, would result, in my view, that 3 out of 4 of the main
predictions above being fulfilled according to my claims.

Ps, mind you, my predictions , can or cannot go wrong, why? because God decides what people shall believe.....

Pater

God does not decide what people believe or not. People decide that.

God only has the power to lay a path before them and obviously you have strayed from the path.

Pater I will pray for you tonight God has the strength to welcome you back search out that strength.

[saizai]

First, I should point out that the JREF says it will not accept predictions based on analysis of books, so you'd be best off just making predictions and not trying to give an explanation. I would also say it's a bit odd that the messiah needs an old book to make predictions rather than knowing everything already, being divine and all that.

Not so. JREF doesn't accept predictions based AND CLAIMED TRUE based on books (e.g. finding secret codes).

He's welcome to use whatever evidence he likes so long as the proof is in the present, real world.

I don't think he claimed to be divine per se.

[Pater]

Thanks for all the feedback, some of you are right, but, the Messiah dose not need to predict anything in fact, neither needs the Antichrist! and I would perhaps be better of not trying to predict prophecies in a more precise manner than they allready are outlined in the Bible.

"can or cannot go wrong, why? because God decides what people shall believe....."

God can and does at times, of course over rule my wil, i am human, ignorant and selfish, imperfect i do not deny these things, I am not fully aware of all facts, I neither claim to be allknowing. If my ministry would had allready been fully started, I would not need to explain myself about any of the things I believe. Because then, what I believe will not any longer be important to myself or known by anybody, then and only then, will only that which God will allow for me, to do,to say or to manifest ,then only that I will do.

So Dear Sally, my path is not given others to walk, so I thank you for your prayers, but I believe your strenght would be better used to pray for people that do know God at all, I know my God.... or if you want, you can pray for Islam, that its faithful will not create a religious world war against the Catholic Church, for obviously the Pope will never become Muslim, unlike Sabbatai Zevi.

[Sally]

Thanks for all the feedback, some of you are right, but, the Messiah dose not need to predict anything in fact, neither needs the Antichrist! and I would perhaps be better of not trying to predict prophecies in a more precise manner than they allready are outlined in the Bible.

"can or cannot go wrong, why? because God decides what people shall believe....."

God can and does at times, of course over rule my wil, i am human, ignorant and selfish, imperfect i do not deny these things, I am not fully aware of all facts, I neither claim to be allknowing. If my ministry would had allready been fully started, I would not need to explain myself about any of the things I believe. Because then, what I believe will not any longer be important to myself or known by anybody, then and only then, will only that which God will allow for me, to do,to say or to manifest ,then only that I will do.

So Dear Sally, my path is not given others to walk, so I thank you for your prayers, but I believe your strenght would be better used to pray for people that do know God at all, I know my God.... or if you want, you can pray for Islam, that its faithful will not create a religious world war against the Catholic Church, for obviously the Pope will never become Muslim, unlike Sabbatai Zevi.

The Catholic Church is quite adapt and destroying itself it does not need my or Allah's help.

You know of the true God and yet you choose to blasphem and forsake Him. I know you also know in your heart of the consequences of such actions.

I will continue to pray for your soul for I believe it still can be saved.

[Bradk3]

Here we go... :rolleyes:

[Crowbot]

Here we go... :rolleyes:


ROFL!! Delusional versus delusional fight!! The anti-christ vs the person god speaks through! This should be good. :hypnotize

Sidenote: I cant believe there is no "popcorn" emoteicon on this forum...if there ever was a time for one...

[petre]

Thanks for all the feedback, some of you are right, but, the Messiah dose not need to predict anything in fact, neither needs the Antichrist! and I would perhaps be better of not trying to predict prophecies in a more precise manner than they allready are outlined in the Bible.

"can or cannot go wrong, why? because God decides what people shall believe....."

God can and does at times, of course over rule my wil, i am human, ignorant and selfish, imperfect i do not deny these things, I am not fully aware of all facts, I neither claim to be allknowing. If my ministry would had allready been fully started, I would not need to explain myself about any of the things I believe. Because then, what I believe will not any longer be important to myself or known by anybody, then and only then, will only that which God will allow for me, to do,to say or to manifest ,then only that I will do.

So Dear Sally, my path is not given others to walk, so I thank you for your prayers, but I believe your strenght would be better used to pray for people that do know God at all, I know my God.... or if you want, you can pray for Islam, that its faithful will not create a religious world war against the Catholic Church, for obviously the Pope will never become Muslim, unlike Sabbatai Zevi.

This is a far healthier stance, that failure is a failure of God to you do your will, not your failure to do God's will. It brings up a question of exactly how bible predictions are any better than educated guesses of course if both could be right or wrong, but healthier none the less.

I've no idea how many predictions you feel confident in Pater, but if you want to use the March prediction in the challenge you'll have to get the application and protocol approved before then. In the past I'd have said it should be quite possible with continued effort, but I understand communication with JREF has been slower since Kramer left. You seem more capable of short, clear descriptions than many applicants so I'd think you are plenty ready to submit a formal application now and leave the details of the protocol as something to work out later. I'd imagine JREF would more readily communicate with an accepted applicant.

[Ririon]

ROFL!! Delusional versus delusional fight!! The anti-christ vs the person god speaks through! This should be good. :hypnotize

Sidenote: I cant believe there is no "popcorn" emoteicon on this forum...if there ever was a time for one...
Mmmmm... Popcorn...
:popcorn1

[William Smith]

...
"can or cannot go wrong, why? because God decides what people shall believe....."

God can and does at times, of course over rule my wil, i am human, ignorant and selfish, imperfect i do not deny these things, I am not fully aware of all facts, I neither claim to be allknowing. If my ministry would had allready been fully started, I would not need to explain myself about any of the things I believe. Because then, what I believe will not any longer be important to myself or known by anybody, then and only then, will only that which God will allow for me, to do,to say or to manifest ,then only that I will do.
...


I do not understand how your statement relates to the statement you quoted above, Pater.

So far you did claim to be "The Antichrist". (How) Do you intend to prove this?

[Pater]

Dear Sally, how do you define that I choose to blasphem, and in which way?

And how have I forsake Him? God that is, If you mean him and not Jesus and his teachings....

And yes i know of consequences, but there are a wide range of actons God may or may not take aginst people for any actions, which actions are you reffering that I am doing?

And Yes I claim to be the Antichrist, but have still not decided if I will try to prove this fact in the challenge, althoug I am tempted do do that, perhaps I will, but mostly I regard as Sally sayd that concerining this fact at least when dealing with belief, it is people who must make up their beliefs as to if I am or not who I claim to be.

Petre, I dont need to be confident in my predictions, since I usually do not try to predict events, I have explained that I have wittness to prophecy which has created my faith, thus i do trust God with my future and present, thus i trust even yet unfulfilled prophecy etc, For me to make my own predictions concerning my own or the future of the world, is really something i see as worthless. The future is meant to be unknown so humans do not act out in ways they normally would not do. Knowing the future is not good for our lifes, hence the purpose of time creates the obstacle that prevents us from doing evil or endanger the physical self and also it prophibits nature from stopping from exists due to evolution demanding its course.

But then again bla bla bla :)

Albert Einstein:
"I never think of the future. It comes soon enough"

[RSLancastr]

timokay, I fully agree with your post, that this guy should not be encouraged.

But this sentence just HAS to be made into a sig line:But pandering to the antichrist is just cruel.It's just one of those sentences you hardly ever hear in casual conversation.

[William Smith]

...
And Yes I claim to be the Antichrist, but have still not decided if I will try to prove this fact in the challenge, althoug I am tempted do do that, perhaps I will, but mostly I regard as Sally sayd that concerining this fact at least when dealing with belief, it is people who must make up their beliefs as to if I am or not who I claim to be.
...


The JREF Challenge is not about belief. It is about proof.

You have offered nothing but talk so far. You ignore inquiries like Geek Goddess' and if you respond to someone you often wander away from the point in question.
At this point, Pater, I doubt you will offer anything but talk to this forum.

I still have no evidence that you are the Antichrist. It seems to happen only in your head.

[saizai]

:duel -> :catfight: -> :popcorn1

:D

[saizai]

pater: Would you mind explaining in plain terms what makes you, the Antichrist / Messiah, different from an ordinary human? (Unless of course you claim that all of us are the Antichrist / Messiah, in which case the terms are a bit too loosely defined...)

Do you have any special powers? Are you genetically different? Does God give you any special information? Are you going to do anything in particular in the future that we can observe? Do you have special knowledge of the future or of other people? Anything?

Other than your mere existence being prophesized, of course. 'cause mine was too (by the doctors, several months before my birth :D).

Also, have you ever been on antipsychotic medications? If yes, did you believe you were the Antichrist and/or Messiah while you were on them?

[timokay]

timokay, I fully agree with your post, that this guy should not be encouraged.

But this sentence just HAS to be made into a sig line:It's just one of those sentences you hardly ever hear in casual conversation.

Thanks RSLancastr :)

At least Sally, whom I regard as rowing the same boat as this guy, is attempting to test what she says she can do. She may be sincere, and if reasonable, may get some perspective on what her "abilites" are. I can get behind an open discussion with her on some level, although I personally am not willing to make any suggestions because of my own bias.

But this guy just wants a forum, and we are giving him pages and pages of it.

[William Smith]

...
But this guy just wants a forum, and we are giving him pages and pages of it.

What approach would you suggest, timokay?

[Solus]

I see now why the forum veterans here just play along with people like pater. There nothing we can do to help them, debating logically with them is a fustrating excerise so the best we can do is observe and have fun. I hope these people get help someday though.

[saizai]

Solus - IMHO, aside from pharmacological aid or giving major new realworld experiences, the only thing one can do to change somebody's worldview (whether rational or ... otherwise) is to work from within that worldview to demonstrate that a different version of it is better, or that it is inconsistent.

The latter is at least theoretically possible with pater, and thus worth some attempt. You have to start by figuring out what exactly he believes and why, how his logic works, and work within that. But it's possible.

[timokay]

What approach would you suggest, timokay?

The Sally, and at least one of the oddball threads is a good example currently. Stay on topic, get specifics of what exactly the claim is, and to not get into debate over points of argument that do not pertain to the claim itself. Help clarify, not obfuscate.

As soon as we start asking questions like , "If you are this, then why can't you do that....", we get a response that has nothing to do with the claim, and posters like pater get to go on and on and on. Then someone replies to one point of the gibberish and feeds the fire.

Shut them down, stay on topic and suggest only things that will help them submit an application.

We have a forum for religious discussion, let them take thier diatribes there.

[William Smith]

Pater, any thoughts on how to pursue your application to the JREF Challenge?

[Geek Goddess]

What approach would you suggest, timokay?

Don't water it, and it will die on the vine.

If we won't play with him, he'll have to go play with himself. By refusing to answer any questions, he is, as I stated earlier, sitting somewhere in a room writing missives to an invisible audience.

I'm thinking of the computer programmer geek in "Jurassic Park" right now.

[William Smith]

The Sally, and at least one of the oddball threads is a good example currently. Stay on topic, get specifics of what exactly the claim is, and to not get into debate over points of argument that do not pertain to the claim itself. Help clarify, not obfuscate.

As soon as we start asking questions like , "If you are this, then why can't you do that....", we get a response that has nothing to do with the claim, and posters like pater get to go on and on and on. Then someone replies to one point of the gibberish and feeds the fire.

Shut them down, stay on topic and suggest only things that will help them submit an application.

We have a forum for religious discussion, let them take thier diatribes there.

Don't water it, and it will die on the vine.

If we won't play with him, he'll have to go play with himself. By refusing to answer any questions, he is, as I stated earlier, sitting somewhere in a room writing missives to an invisible audience.

I'm thinking of the computer programmer geek in "Jurassic Park" right now.

Good suggestions, Geek Goddess and timokay.

[Cuddles]

I'd just like to say I'm an idiot. I only just got GzuzKryzt's name.:boxedin:

[William Smith]

I'd just like to say I'm an idiot. I only just got GzuzKryzt's name.:boxedin:

I'm considering a chance to NTKryzt. :D

Seriously.

[calebprime]

I'd just like to say I'm an idiot. I only just got GzuzKryzt's name.:boxedin:

me too.

thought Gzuz sounded like "scuzz" as in SCSI-port.

[petre]

Prophecy- Prediction, Ex 1
-----------------------------------
Prediction based upon;

Isaiah 17 :1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from
being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.
-----------------------------------

Prediction 1. What will happen?

Aerial bombardments directed against Syria. Led and started by Israel,
supported by the US military.


A quick search this morning reveals no reports of aerial bombardments directed at Syria in recent weeks.


Prediction 2. When will this happen?

At the end of the first quarter of 2007. In the month of March, after the
7th and before the 20th of March. Late evening Syrian time around 11:11 PM.


It is no longer "before the 20th of March", therefore the time limit described expired some 21+ hours ago.


Prediction 3. Where will this happen?

Syria, Damascus, concentrated around borders with Iran.


I see no news reports of anything occurring around Syria's border with Iran. There is a story about suspected terrorist movement near the border with Lebanon, but as this involves neither airstrikes nor the border with Iran it does not appear to match.


Prediction 4. Effects from this "war"

-1.Syrian military ground movement into Lebanon.
-2.Hizbollah commencing of rocket Launches into Israel.
-3.The Russian and Chinese will NOT intervene militarily on the side of
Syria or Israel and the US.
------------------------------------


There are no reports of Syrian military movement into Lebanon, nor was I able to find any news of any rocket launches into Israel. I must admit that the Russians and Chinese appear to have not done anything militarily on the side of Syria, Israel, or the US recently, but as there seems to be nothing for them to have respond to I think this counts as a moot prediction.


Since this is a prophetical claim, only time will prove or disprove it!

A protocol & test procedure to ensure the validity of said proof;JREF must
watch the international news......

-A failure in my test, in my view would result in 3 out of 4 of the main
predictions above not being fulfilled according the my claims.

-A success in my test, would result, in my view, that 3 out of 4 of the main
predictions above being fulfilled according to my claims.

Ps, mind you, my predictions , can or cannot go wrong, why? because God decides what people shall believe.....

Pater

While a final protocol was never established, it seems even with overly-generous interpretation that every aspect of the prediction has failed to occur. I suggest that one can now conclude authoratatively that no God exists that wishes Pater to be a prophet.

[William Smith]

Thanks for the update, petre.

[petre]

Thanks for the update, petre.

No problem, Outlook reminders are useful to keep an eye on predictions. Noting the failures as strongly as the successes is helpful in reducing confirmation bias :)

[Pope130]

Prediction 3. Where will this happen?

Syria, Damascus, concentrated around borders with Iran.


Pater

I wish I'd caught up on this thread before the prediction had timed out. Syria has no border with Iran.

[William Smith]

I wish I'd caught up on this thread before the prediction had timed out. Syria has no border with Iran.

I didn't even read his "predictions", but now I have to say: D'oh! :)

[Oualawouzou]

Come on now, you gotta admit, it is quite tempting to walk up to random strangers at parties and loudly and confidently introduce yourself as "Pater Messiah, Antichrist!"

Even better if you have matching business cards, a good sales pitch and a slogan that includes the words "fire and brimstone".

Hum... *ponder*

[Psiload]

Ladies and gentleman! Saints and Sinners! I give you Pater Messiah, Antichrist!




:words:




There he is, folks, Pater Messiah, Antichrist. Give him a big hand.

[Skeptic Guy]

Thank goodness, I can unpack the canned goods out of my basement and unload all my weapons. The end of the world as we know it isn't today.

[Blackwell]

No problem, Outlook reminders are useful to keep an eye on predictions. Noting the failures as strongly as the successes is helpful in reducing confirmation bias :)

Ah -- Outlook! I was going to ask how you remembered to check up on these claims. Good idea.

Thanks for the update, petre.

[Cuddles]

Thank goodness, I can unpack the canned goods out of my basement and unload all my weapons. The end of the world as we know it isn't today.

It's tomorrow (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=75686&page=3).

[Skeptic Guy]

Oh, I wasn't thinking of Drew, but rather Pater's "Prediction 2":

Prediction 2. When will this happen?

At the end of the first quarter of 2007. In the month of March, after the
7th and before the 20th of March. Late evening Syrian time around 11:11 PM.


I can only take on one prophet at a time. But maybe I should repack the canned goods.

[Tex]

Ah -- Outlook! I was going to ask how you remembered to check up on these claims. Good idea.

Thanks for the update, petre.

This gives me an idea. Google Calendar allows you to create a calendar and share it with any other Google Calendar users. Similar to public calendars in Outlook but on a global scale. Perhaps we could make a "Psychic Predictions" calendar to save them for posterity. I noticed that there is already a "C2C Predictions" calendar (Coast to Coast AM) that hasn't been updated recently but had some real howlers predicted for the end of 2006.

[Darat]

This gives me an idea. Google Calendar allows you to create a calendar and share it with any other Google Calendar users. Similar to public calendars in Outlook but on a global scale. Perhaps we could make a "Psychic Predictions" calendar to save them for posterity. I noticed that there is already a "C2C Predictions" calendar (Coast to Coast AM) that hasn't been updated recently but had some real howlers predicted for the end of 2006.

Or use the calendar here.

[petre]

Or use the calendar here.

Not a bad idea. Here's another one ripening as we speak (prediction window opened March 4, will end April 3):

http://forums.randi.org/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=102&day=2007-4-3&c=1

[Skeptic Guy]

I like the title, "The California Big One Earthquake". It kind of sparks all sorts of imagery.