Montreal School Shooting

[ReFLeX]

The original story had 2 gunmen and four dead, now it's being reported that only the lone gunman has died though many are in critical condition/surgery.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/09/13/montreal.shooting/

[Darth Rotor]

The original story had 2 gunmen and four dead, now it's being reported that only the lone gunman has died though many are in critical condition/surgery.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/09/13/montreal.shooting/
Well done to the cops.

*prayers for those in surgery* It can't hurt, OK? :)

DR

[TobiasTheViking]

<bad joke about 9/11 deniers and the using of the first reports that are usually not fact checked because there is no time>

[Pardalis]

Something similar happened in 1989, where 14 young women were killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre

But it's probably not for the same motives.

[WildCat]

I blame the current political climate.

[Jorghnassen]

Other thread on the subject. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=63798)

[plindboe]

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/09/13/montreal.shooting/

CNN must have some bloodthirsty readers. Notice the links "Watch students flee the scene -- 1:38" & "Watch witnesses describe escaping through pools of blood -- 3:44".

Is this sickening entertainment, or is it news?

[ReFLeX]

Oops, I searched and couldn't find it.

CNN must have some bloodthirsty readers. Notice the links "Watch students flee the scene -- 1:38" & "Watch witnesses describe escaping through pools of blood -- 3:44".

Is this sickening entertainment, or is it news?

:eek:

[Azure]

CNN must have some bloodthirsty readers. Notice the links "Watch students flee the scene -- 1:38" & "Watch witnesses describe escaping through pools of blood -- 3:44".

Is this sickening entertainment, or is it news?

If it bleeds, it leads.

[jimtron]

Is this sickening entertainment, or is it news?

Both.

[Morrigan]

Someone to blame heavy metal, video games, trench coats and guns in 3, 2, 1...

Hell, I'm already teased about it at work (being a metalhead and all, and it happened very close to where I am). Haha.

[ReFLeX]

One dead on scene, the cops said last night. Apparently the other 19 are still alive.

They found the shooter's blog.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=d558898f-6bfb-4a79-aa4b-b1d60a940a1d&k=56193
"His name is Trench. you will come to know him as the Angel of Death," he wrote on his vampirefreaks.com profile.
I can't find it, however, and his profile has apparently been deleted.
http://vampirefreaks.com/profile.php?user=trench

THIS USER HAS BEEN DELETED BY VF ADMIN
Reason for Deletion:

[Jorghnassen]

More here (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/14/gunman-shooting.html)

Including this line:"Metal and Goth kick ass. Life is like a video game, you gotta die sometime."

And that guy was 25?

[Morrigan]

Yeah, his VampireFreaks profile showed someone who acted like an angsty teenager, not a grown adult. Then again he DID have a profile on a site like that... hahaha.

The guy was a loser. It's a good thing he was, but really, it's pathetic - killed only one person with his semi-automatic? Even the Colombine kids and the Polytechnique killer were more efficient.

[Jorghnassen]

It doesn't matter that he's a loser and whether he's a bad shot or not: he killed one and wounded 19 others (2 of which could still die from those wounds). It is a tragedy.

[Badger]

For sure it's a tragedy.

Good thing things like this are just an abberation.

[Almo]

Good thing things like this are just an abberation.

Yup. Good point. These things ARE abberations. And as long as they are abberations, locking down the whole school with security measures is silly. Plus you'd have to lock down ALL schools, or the would-be assailant will probably just pick the unsecured one.

Blame the assailant, not the people who "didn't stop him before he did it." Watch Minority Report for where we're headed with all this garbage about pre-emption of anything bad before it happens.

[Q-Source]

He was full of hatred against everything and everybody. An empty human being. But I would also put the blame on his parents.

His journal can still be found online, his username was fatality666 in vampirefreaks. But I bet it will not last for long, as it is being bombarded with hate posts.

[ponderingturtle]

Yeah, his VampireFreaks profile showed someone who acted like an angsty teenager, not a grown adult. Then again he DID have a profile on a site like that... hahaha.

The guy was a loser. It's a good thing he was, but really, it's pathetic - killed only one person with his semi-automatic? Even the Colombine kids and the Polytechnique killer were more efficient.

Hey he is canadian and so deserves some curve on his grade, if it was american you would expect more accurate shooting.

[Raphael]

Yup. Good point. These things ARE abberations. And as long as they are abberations, locking down the whole school with security measures is silly. Plus you'd have to lock down ALL schools, or the would-be assailant will probably just pick the unsecured one.

Blame the assailant, not the people who "didn't stop him before he did it." Watch Minority Report for where we're headed with all this garbage about pre-emption of anything bad before it happens.

This is the most frustrating thing about the coverage on CBC radio today.

Lots of interviews with angry "experts" about failures in the "system".

WTF?

Do they want to live in a police state?

[Jorghnassen]

This is the most frustrating thing about the coverage on CBC radio today.

Lots of interviews with angry "experts" about failures in the "system".

WTF?

Do they want to live in a police state?

No, they want to live in an armored bubble where nothing bad can ever enter.

[KelvinG]

This is the most frustrating thing about the coverage on CBC radio today.

Lots of interviews with angry "experts" about failures in the "system".

WTF?

Do they want to live in a police state?

The bottom line is that if a guy is hell bent on killing a bunch of people, and the guy has even half a working brain, then he'll probably make it happen.
If a school is too difficult a target to penetrate, then a shopping mall, or a restaurant will do.

Luckily such occurences are very few and far between.
But, to say it's a failure in the system doesn't make much sense.

[Huntster]

I blame the current political climate.

I blame the sick bastard who was pulling the trigger.

[Crowbot]

so this "angel of death" managed to kill....only himself? brilliant. Oh no wait wait wait, it was the cops that got him - he cant be given credit for that kill.

[LashL]

Five photos from his blog here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/14/world/main2007311.shtml

[Darth Rotor]

Five photos from his blog here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/14/world/main2007311.shtml
One photo has a tombstone with his name printed on it and the epitaph: "Lived fast died young. Left a mangled corpse."
Original, eh? :p
He said on the site that he was drinking whiskey in the morning and described his mood the night before as "crazy" and "postal."
Redundant too. :p
He said on the site that he liked to play "Super Columbine Massacre," an Internet-based computer game that simulates the April 20, 1999, shootings at the Colorado high school by two of its students that left 13 people dead.
Nice game, fun for the whole dysfunctional family. Going on my Christmas list this year.
"His name is Trench. you will come to know him as the Angel of Death," he wrote on his vampirefreaks.com profile. "He is not a people person. He has met a handful of people in his life who are decent. But he finds the vast majority to be worthless, no good, conniving, betraying, lying, deceptive."
A pity he never understood Sturgeon's Law.
Below a picture of Gill aiming the barrel of a gun at the camera there's the inscription: "I think I have an obsession with guns ... muahahaha."
Witty too. I guess this guy was a real chick magnet.

I am glad he was a lousy shot. I suspect his "gun" obsession was tied to his (presumed) porn obsession. (It fits the profile)

DR

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I blame the current political climate.

I blame rock music.

And Bush. Definitely Bush.

[marksman]

I wonder who took the photos.

[Jorghnassen]

so this "angel of death" managed to kill....only himself? brilliant. Oh no wait wait wait, it was the cops that got him - he cant be given credit for that kill.

One female student died and two others are still at risk. It is also unclear if he killed himself or if the cops did. At least one report states that he commited suicide after the cops shot him in the leg.

[slingblade]

No, they want to live in an armored bubble where nothing bad can ever enter.

And where no one is ever offended, and everyone thinks the same things. :boggled:

[Huntster]

I blame rock music.

And Bush. Definitely Bush.

You're right. The political climate and the insane shooter weren't factors.

Frankly, I don't think it was the rock music, either.

It was definately that damned George Bush (both of them.............)

[Jimbo07]

This is the most frustrating thing about the coverage on CBC radio today.

Lots of interviews with angry "experts" about failures in the "system".

WTF?

Do they want to live in a police state?

Nope...

... but I bet they can't resist getting in the newspaper with any ridiculous thing they might be asked to say...

:(

[Polaris]

CNN must have some bloodthirsty readers. Notice the links "Watch students flee the scene -- 1:38" & "Watch witnesses describe escaping through pools of blood -- 3:44".

Is this sickening entertainment, or is it news?

It could also be a fortune cookie.

[mac]

Just an intrusion here - am also close to the events - and still quite upset. I understand the issue of augmenting security levels of places such as schools not being a deterent for such future acts of violence. However, how do we stand on gun control? - can anybody shed light as to how a society can make a significant dent in rendering guns difficult to buy on the black market. What this guy used was not a hunting rifle - not the kind of arm you can register for and use for personal security. What can be done about that? - Is policing as it's being done now enough? It just seems to me to be too much of a fluke that a 25 year old can amass that much weaponry (apprently his car was found with a significant amount of amo) and where did he hide the stuff? - looks like, from the picutres, that he was still at "home".

[Badger]

Just an intrusion here - am also close to the events - and still quite upset. I understand the issue of augmenting security levels of places such as schools not being a deterent for such future acts of violence. However, how do we stand on gun control? - can anybody shed light as to how a society can make a significant dent in rendering guns difficult to buy on the black market. What this guy used was not a hunting rifle - not the kind of arm you can register for and use for personal security. What can be done about that? - Is policing as it's being done now enough? It just seems to me to be too much of a fluke that a 25 year old can amass that much weaponry (apprently his car was found with a significant amount of amo) and where did he hide the stuff? - looks like, from the picutres, that he was still at "home".

My kneejerk western redneck perspective is that $1billion pays a lot of front line cops salaries for their entire careers.

As background, $1billion is the figure that is given for what the revamped Canadian gun registry program has cost so far, as opposed to the initial $2million cost that was estimated when legislation was passed.

[Huntster]

....can anybody shed light as to how a society can make a significant dent in rendering guns difficult to buy on the black market......

Sure. Law enforcement. The "black market" is against the law.

Don't have "enough" gun control? Maybe you should consider "evil control."

Mr. Gill freely offered plenty of evidence of his evil (or, perhaps, illness) long before this murderous rampage. But, likely, nothing was done because the law protects his "rights."

Yet Ottawa has no problem screwing with the rights of millions of firearms owners with it's worthless gun control measures.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Nothing will change. Some folks never learn.

That includes both political leaders as well as the folks who vote them into office..............

[mac]

Badger - I agree. Can I use your words, please? I'll omit the first 7 ;-) , but I'd like to use it in correspondence to the civic authorities - I think it's well put - and would make a good byline.

BTW - it was originally supposed to cost approx $120 million - and surpassed the $1 billion mark (I'm not sure but I think it's closer to $2 billion).

[mac]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Nothing will change. Some folks never learn.

That includes both political leaders as well as the folks who vote them into office..............

You are wrong.

I cannot agree that nothing will change. After 1989 the gun control registry was drawn up and implemented. It was a huge costly mistake. We have to do better this time. But we have to keep trying. Some folks do learn - we just have to keep at it until we get it right. Things did change after 1989, but it wasn't the right solution.

Another aspect of where change was evident between the two episodes is the police and emergency personnel response. That was why fatalities were much lower. Also we now have specialized hospital teams, trained in the States (Baltimore) where they can gain experience and knowhow in treating gunshot trauma.

We will never be able to stop this type of violence because it's demented, but we can try to find a way to keep these risks as few as possible.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Nothing will change. Some folks never learn.

That includes both political leaders as well as the folks who vote them into office..............

You are wrong.

I cannot agree that nothing will change. After 1989 the gun control registry was drawn up and implemented. It was a huge costly mistake. We have to do better this time. But we have to keep trying. Some folks do learn - we just have to keep at it until we get it right. Things did change after 1989, but it wasn't the right solution.

I hope you are right, but I'm sure you're not. I can literally guarantee that the "solutions" that Ottawa will continue to offer will be akin to the 1989 gun control fiasco. In fact, I'm sure the liberals are already bleating that the 1989 law "didn't go far enough."

Been there, done that.........

....We will never be able to stop this type of violence because it's demented, but we can try to find a way to keep these risks as few as possible.

Again, I suggest violating the "rights" of the few clear and obvious kooks by picking them up before they lose their marbles completely rather than violating the rights of millions of peaceful firearms owners by playing silly, meaningless, and fruitless gun control games.

[Raphael]

shootingpatterns.pdf (application/pdf Object) (http://www.education.ucsb.edu:85/schpsych/School-Violence/PDF/shootingpatterns.pdf)

It seems this guy fits the documented school shooter profile.

[mac]

I hope you are right, but I'm sure you're not. I can literally guarantee that the "solutions" that Ottawa will continue to offer will be akin to the 1989 gun control fiasco. In fact, I'm sure the liberals are already bleating that the 1989 law "didn't go far enough."

Again, I suggest violating the "rights" of the few clear and obvious kooks by picking them up before they lose their marbles completely rather than violating the rights of millions of peaceful firearms owners by playing silly, meaningless, and fruitless gun control games.

I remember thinking at the time that the people who opposed the legislation did not have a well mounted case. They just were not convincing enough in their arguements to garner support, and they certainly did not further their cause by public education. I do think other solutions have to be brought forward as an alternative to taking the present legislation any further.

I quite agree with your second comment - however, I don't see what you mean by "violating the rights of... kooks" - I think that uttering threats is covered in the criminal code, and surely showing very intense fascination for killing while collecting an arsenal to do this (these were not bb guns) is a definite show of devient bahaviour - put them together and you have a recipe for a massacre. Where would we be violating rights?

[mac]

shootingpatterns.pdf (application/pdf Object) (http://www.education.ucsb.edu:85/schpsych/School-Violence/PDF/shootingpatterns.pdf)

It seems this guy fits the documented school shooter profile.

Where did you get this - or what is its source, and how old is it, please?

[Morrigan]

It doesn't matter that he's a loser and whether he's a bad shot or not: he killed one and wounded 19 others (2 of which could still die from those wounds). It is a tragedy.

Where did I say it wasn't a tragedy? I just said he was pathetic. For all of us, that's a good thing. He was still a pathetic loser.

He was full of hatred against everything and everybody. An empty human being. But I would also put the blame on his parents.
Why? Is there evidence that he had an abusive childhood?
The guy was 25. A grown man and a adult. Should we blame the parents of every adult criminal?


His journal can still be found online, his username was fatality666 in vampirefreaks. But I bet it will not last for long, as it is being bombarded with hate posts.
It's already down.

[Jorghnassen]

Where did I say it wasn't a tragedy? I just said he was pathetic. For all of us, that's a good thing. He was still a pathetic loser.

Mocking his lack of shooting skills makes it sound like you'd have been happier with more victims and is somewhat close to praising the acts of other mad gunmen like Marc Lépine. So forgive me for not thinking it's really a "good thing" that he missed a lot. It's plain bad that he went on a shooting spree in first place.

[Morrigan]

Oh please. Yeah, I'm HAPPY that he killed ONLY one person. I'm a big bad monster like that who enjoys people dying. :rolleyes: "Close to praising Marc Lépine"? *flips bird* Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

And I said it's a "good thing" that he was a poor shooter. Because, otherwise, more people would have died. In no way this implies it's a "good thing" that he started shooting in the first place. Why you chose to interprete my post in that way is beyond me. I'll chalk this up to some mysterious urge towards moralism, even when you know you're full of crap.

[Darth Rotor]

Mocking his lack of shooting skills makes it sound like you'd have been happier with more victims and is somewhat close to praising the acts of other mad gunmen like Marc Lépine. So forgive me for not thinking it's really a "good thing" that he missed a lot. It's plain bad that he went on a shooting spree in first place.
I mocked his shooting skills as well. See post #26. If you were offended by that post, I suggest you leap into the nearest industrial strength wood chipper, as you are too sensitive to live. It sucks that he hit anyone at all.

Two words: gallows humor.

AE

[Raphael]

Where did you get this - or what is its source, and how old is it, please?

School Violence Resources (http://www.education.ucsb.edu:85/schpsych/School-Violence/)

[Jorghnassen]

I mocked his shooting skills as well. See post #26.

Ah, but your post was simply "I'm glad he was a lousy shooter". Now read this (emphasis mine):

...killed only one person with his semi-automatic? Even the Colombine kids and the Polytechnique killer were more efficient.

Don't you think it sounds a bit more like "man, at least those other mad men were good shots". Now, I'm not saying that's what he really meant to say, that's just what I perceived it connoted.

And Morrigan, you're the easily offended one. I keep my posts civil.

[ReFLeX]

The guy was a loser. It's a good thing he was, but really, it's pathetic - killed only one person with his semi-automatic? Even the Colombine kids and the Polytechnique killer were more efficient.
I found this in poor taste as well. It's playground teasing style.

[The Mad Hatter]

The original story had 2 gunmen and four dead, now it's being reported that only the lone gunman has died though many are in critical condition/surgery.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/09/13/montreal.shooting/

I go to Concordia, which served as the "refuge" for the evacuated students. I got out of class not knowing anything, stepped outside, and my friend from Dawson ran up to me and told me 67 people were shot. People said there were four gunmen, and that one was still on the loose. And this was at 3:00. It's amazing how fast this stuff goes around. CBC reported four deaths initially, if I remember correctly.

[Morrigan]

Ah, but your post was simply "I'm glad he was a lousy shooter". Now read this (emphasis mine):

Don't you think it sounds a bit more like "man, at least those other mad men were good shots". Now, I'm not saying that's what he really meant to say, that's just what I perceived it connoted.

I'm not sure I understand you anymore. Either you're dishonest, or you're terribly unobservant - probably both. The latter, because you can't tell from my avatar that I'm female. And the former, because you quoted one part and omitted the rest. Tell me, what is the significant difference between: "I'm glad he was a lousy shooter", and "It's a good thing he was a lousy shooter"? You obviously chose to read things that weren't there. I'm not sure why.


And Morrigan, you're the easily offended one. I keep my posts civil.
Haha, suuure. :rolleyes: You implied that I praised people like Marc Lévine based on nothing but your imagination. Who cares if you said such a thing "civilly"? It's still insulting, and of course it angers me. Intellectual dishonesty is more offensive than random slurs or curse words, or mocking dead murdering idiots for that matter.

I mocked his shooting skills as well. See post #26. If you were offended by that post, I suggest you leap into the nearest industrial strength wood chipper, as you are too sensitive to live. It sucks that he hit anyone at all.

Two words: gallows humor.

AE
Thank you.

[Darth Rotor]

It's plain bad that he went on a shooting spree in first place
At least we agree on that. :)

DR

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
I hope you are right, but I'm sure you're not. I can literally guarantee that the "solutions" that Ottawa will continue to offer will be akin to the 1989 gun control fiasco. In fact, I'm sure the liberals are already bleating that the 1989 law "didn't go far enough."

Again, I suggest violating the "rights" of the few clear and obvious kooks by picking them up before they lose their marbles completely rather than violating the rights of millions of peaceful firearms owners by playing silly, meaningless, and fruitless gun control games.
I remember thinking at the time that the people who opposed the legislation did not have a well mounted case. They just were not convincing enough in their arguements to garner support, and they certainly did not further their cause by public education.

Perhaps so, and even though the 1989 gun control issue in Canada was a specific political event of that time and place, the same political issue has been playing out directly to the south in the U.S. for decades. It has literally come full circle here, where now people are free to carry concealed with permits and, in places like Alaska, even without permitting or training requirements. This is an illustration of just how uninformed the electorate can be, and especially how the electorate doesn't even matter in the gun control debate, as almost all gun control is enacted against public opinion.

I do think other solutions have to be brought forward as an alternative to taking the present legislation any further.

What kind of other solutions might you be considering?

I quite agree with your second comment - however, I don't see what you mean by "violating the rights of... kooks" - I think that uttering threats is covered in the criminal code, and surely showing very intense fascination for killing while collecting an arsenal to do this (these were not bb guns) is a definite show of devient bahaviour - put them together and you have a recipe for a massacre. Where would we be violating rights?

You're right. Mr. Gill was probably violating current Canadian or Quebec law with his words, freely disseminated on his blog for the entire world (including the RCMP) to read.

However, had the RCMP picked this fool up a few weeks ago, you can be assured that "his rights" would be discussed at great lengths in court.

[Molinaro]

The front page of the Toronto Sun the following day, showed a picture of him and mentioned that he liked to play the video game "Columbine Massacre".

I didn't read the article.

[Jorghnassen]

I'm not sure I understand you anymore. Either you're dishonest, or you're terribly unobservant - probably both. The latter, because you can't tell from my avatar that I'm female. And the former, because you quoted one part and omitted the rest. Tell me, what is the significant difference between: "I'm glad he was a lousy shooter", and "It's a good thing he was a lousy shooter"? You obviously chose to read things that weren't there. I'm not sure why.


I've learned not to assume the gender of a poster by their avatar (especially anime ones), so forgive me for making the wrong assumption (based on forum demographics). I should have been more explicit in post #44 but I do try to pick my words carefully.

The significant difference is the way you expressed your mockery. You can call Kimveer Gill a pathetic loser all you want to vent your anger, but saying he killed only (your word) one (4 more victims are not out of the woods yet) and stating that the Columbine and Polytechnique killers were more efficient can been perceived as euphemized praises for other horrible acts. In the face of sudden tragedy, what is the point comparing the degree of horror of similar events (every media made the connection, but none phrased it along the lines of "but there were more victims in those other shootings")? You're mocking a dead guy who ain't there to suffer from it and inadvertantly saying things that can be viewed as making light of a tragedy to the victims (by implying the other events were worse). Now I know that is not what you meant to express, but those are some of the connotations of what you said (ReFlex saw them too, so it's not just me trying to see it in that particular way). Darth Rotor did not bring in any of those connotations with his (her?) short remark. No comparison with other events, no victim count.

[Darth Rotor]

Darth Rotor did not bring in any of those connotations with his (her?) short remark. No comparison with other events, no victim count.
*checks package*

His :cool:

DR

[Jorghnassen]

*checks package*

His :cool:

DR

Well, I just wanted to make sure.

[Badger]

Badger - I agree. Can I use your words, please? I'll omit the first 7 ;-) , but I'd like to use it in correspondence to the civic authorities - I think it's well put - and would make a good byline.

BTW - it was originally supposed to cost approx $120 million - and surpassed the $1 billion mark (I'm not sure but I think it's closer to $2 billion).

Sure, you can use those words! I'm pretty positive I'm not the first one to say that.

With regard to cost, I don't think they've figured it out yet. The $1 billion is all the auditors have easily been able to track so far.

[Badger]

The dude had registered his weapons. The government looks like it's standing by its promise to revamp the registry, too.

Good news, from my perspective.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2006/09/15/1844015-cp.html

I also saw a bit where PM Stephen Harper said "We have enough laws already. We have to concentrate on enforcing them" (no link)

[ReFLeX]

The dude had registered his weapons. The government looks like it's standing by its promise to revamp the registry, too.

Good news, from my perspective.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2006/09/15/1844015-cp.html

I also saw a bit where PM Stephen Harper said "We have enough laws already. We have to concentrate on enforcing them" (no link)

So handguns are illegal in Canada but not that giant rifle from the pictures? I wasn't aware...

[Morrigan]

I've learned not to assume the gender of a poster by their avatar (especially anime ones), so forgive me for making the wrong assumption (based on forum demographics). I should have been more explicit in post #44 but I do try to pick my words carefully.

All right.


The significant difference is the way you expressed your mockery. You can call Kimveer Gill a pathetic loser all you want to vent your anger,

I wasn't venting any anger. I was just mocking him for being a loser, which he was. And I added that it was a good thing that he wasn't an efficient killer.

The rest is just you, again, reading into things that weren't there (with all your own highlighting of "can be perceived", "euphemized", "implying", "can be viewed", etc.).
Perhaps you don't have a morbid sense of humour like I do, but don't go assuming all kinds of nasty motives on me because of that. I thought the "it's a good thing" part was disclaimer enough, but I guess people can't help their moralist instincts...

[Jorghnassen]

So handguns are illegal in Canada but not that giant rifle from the pictures? I wasn't aware...

Handguns are not illegal, they are restricted weapons (so you can buy one, but it's complicated, and what you can do with it is tightly legislated).

[Jorghnassen]

I wasn't venting any anger. I was just mocking him for being a loser, which he was. And I added that it was a good thing that he wasn't an efficient killer.


But what was the point of mocking him in the first place, if not to vent?
That being said, I laughed at the Norm MacDonald interview on the Daily Show, and though it was gallows humour, it was actually funny (especially because Jon Stewart was squirming next to him, though you can tell the audience was uncomfortable at the first mention of Steve Irwin).

[ReFLeX]

Handguns are not illegal, they are restricted weapons (so you can buy one, but it's complicated, and what you can do with it is tightly legislated).
Oh. Because whenever I would come back over the border there would be a sign saying "Handguns Prohibited."

[Jorghnassen]

Oh. Because whenever I would come back over the border there would be a sign saying "Handguns Prohibited."

Relevant F.A.Q. (http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/faq/default_e.asp)

[Morrigan]

But what was the point of mocking him in the first place, if not to vent?
Er, to amuse myself? And hopefully others.

[Mishka Zaznaykin]

How do Canadian gun control laws compare to those of the USA?

[Badger]

How do Canadian gun control laws compare to those of the USA?

In a nutshell "They're stricter".

The FAQ's linked to by Jorghnassen provide a real good overview of the Canadian side of it.

[Mishka Zaznaykin]

Thanks Badger. I lived in Toronto many years ago and it seemed in general that crime was less of a problem there than one would expect for a city of comparable size in the USA.

[Huntster]

So handguns are illegal in Canada but not that giant rifle from the pictures? I wasn't aware...

So, "giant" rifles, registered or not, are to be more feared than, say, tiny rifles?

Is it somehow more legitimate to be murdered by a registered rifle than one that is not properly registered?

If the rifle was properly registered, and the firearm registration system was justified under a crime fighting argument, are the authorities in a higher plane of responsibility if the murder weapon is registered?

[Huntster]

....I can literally guarantee that the "solutions" that Ottawa will continue to offer will be akin to the 1989 gun control fiasco. In fact, I'm sure the liberals are already bleating that the 1989 law "didn't go far enough."....

Story: (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2006/09/15/1844015-cp.html)

"There's a horrible sense of loss in the city of Montreal, the families are devastated . . . and we need to show introspection, and a calm, intelligent approach for our country. We have tough laws in this country when it comes to firearms, but we need always to be prepared to recalibrate and make sure we have the emphasis right."

The man in charge of administering Canada's gun laws, Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day, left few hints about what the government might be considering.....

So, each and every time some Bozo commits mass murder like this (with registered weapons, no less), the law is guaranteed to "ratchet up" more?

....Again, I suggest violating the "rights" of the few clear and obvious kooks by picking them up before they lose their marbles completely rather than violating the rights of millions of peaceful firearms owners by playing silly, meaningless, and fruitless gun control games.

Story: (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2006/09/15/1844015-cp.html)

"But I can tell you it is the time to gather all the facts in terms of what has happened here and to look at what can be done on terms of legislation to prevent an unbalanced individual . . . from being able in any way acquire any type of firearm and that's exactly what our plan is to do."

Let's see........................:

1) Gun registry................check

2) Mass murderer publishes his "unbalanced" state on web blog for all (including authorites) to read.........................check

3) Mass murderer commits mass murder with registered gun..................check

4) Government is not held responsible for the obvious..................check

5) Law abiding citizens will have to undergo further firearms restrictions..................check

6) Unstable people will continue to publish blogs which clearly show that they are dangerous, and government won't be able to do a damned thing about it..............check.

[ReFLeX]

So, "giant" rifles, registered or not, are to be more feared than, say, tiny rifles?Yes!

[Morrigan]

6) Unstable people will continue to publish blogs which clearly show that they are dangerous, and government won't be able to do a damned thing about it..............check.
Hold on a sec. Have you actually seen the guy's blog? There was absolutely nothing a government of any free country could have done based on its content.
If you aren't implying that the government should have done, or been able to do, something about it, then disregard.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
So, "giant" rifles, registered or not, are to be more feared than, say, tiny rifles?
Yes!

One is small enough to hide under a coat and smuggle into a university building, the other isn't, but is designed accurate at up to a mile away.

Both are extremely dangerous in the hands of the wrong person.

Six of one, half dozen of the other?

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
6) Unstable people will continue to publish blogs which clearly show that they are dangerous, and government won't be able to do a damned thing about it..............check.
Hold on a sec. Have you actually seen the guy's blog?

Nope. However, I have read quotes from his blog: (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060914/ts_nm/crime_canada_shooting_dc)

............On a Web site devoted to Goth culture, Gill said he was born July 9, 1981, in Montreal, was 6 feet, 1 inch tall and of East-Indian heritage.

Gill wrote in his blog on the site www.vampirefreaks.com that he liked guns and his trenchcoat and would prefer to die: "Like Romeo and Juliet -- or -- in a hail of gunfire."........

....On his English-language blog, under the "Fatality666" name he used on the Web site, Gill posted 79 photographs, several showing him brandishing guns and a hunting knife.

One photo shows the tall, thin man dressed in a black trenchcoat and holding an automatic weapon. It carries the caption: "Ready for Action."

"Anger and hatred simmers within me," reads another photo caption.....

....He professes to hate all people, especially "jocks" and "preps," and laments that bullies harass Goth kids.....

There was absolutely nothing a government of any free country could have done based on its content.

And therein lies the problem.

If you aren't implying that the government should have done, or been able to do, something about it, then disregard.

Also from that article:

...."We can obviously just observe that laws we have didn't prevent this tragedy, which is why our government will be ... looking to make our laws more effective."....

I submit that instead of punishing the rest of society with more restrictive firearms laws (which Gill observed, anyway), perhaps it's time to look at a different way to neutralize the danger from sick people.

[Morrigan]

Um, many angsty teenagers write all sorts of rambling like the one you quoted. Saying "I'd love to die in a hail of fire", "Hatred simmers within me", "I hate jocks" - I've seen far worse just by browsing ordinary forums. None of those people grabbed a gun and shot anyone. Because most times, it's just empty angst coming from a whiny teenager. If we started taking these kinds of words seriously everytime, we'd have no one to actually do any work on real criminals.

In a free society, you can't arrest someone for words like that. You can arrest them only if they make explicit threats (which these weren't). If you think this is a "problem", then obviously you think freedom itself is a "problem".

[Huntster]

Um, many angsty teenagers write all sorts of rambling like the one you quoted. Saying "I'd love to die in a hail of fire", "Hatred simmers within me", "I hate jocks" - I've seen far worse just by browsing ordinary forums....

The majority of people don't write such things publically. This is good.

That means the number of people to scrutinized is limited to the fools who do so.

....None of those people grabbed a gun and shot anyone....

Gill did.

Eric Harris did: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre)

In 1996, Eric Harris created a private website on America Online. The original site was set up to host Doom levels that he and Klebold had created, mainly for friends. Harris began a primitive blog on the site, which included jokes and small journal entries concerning his thoughts on parents, school, and friends. By the end of the year, the site contained instructions on how to cause mischief, as well as instructions on how to make explosives, and logs of the mischief he and Klebold were causing. Beginning in early 1997, the blog postings began to show the first signs of Harris' ever-growing anger against society.

Harris' site had few visitors, and did not become an issue until late 1997, when Jefferson County Sheriff's Office investigator Michael Guerra was notified of the site after the parents of Harris' former friend, Brooks Brown, discovered that Harris was posting death threats aimed at their son. Guerra discovered the website also contained violent threats directed at the students and teachers who attended Columbine High School. Other material included blurbs Harris had written concerning his hatred of society in general and his desire to kill those who annoyed him. As the date of the shooting neared, Harris also began noting the completion of pipe bombs on his site, as well as a gun count and "hit list" of individuals he wished to target, although it never mentioned his overall plot.[3] As Harris had admitted to having explosives, Guerra decided to write a draft affidavit for a search warrant of the Harris household, but it was never filed. The existence of the affidavit was concealed by Jefferson County, and not revealed to the public until September 2001, as the direct result of an investigation by the television show 60 Minutes.

After the release of the affidavit, a series of grand jury investigations were launched into the cover-up activities of the Jefferson County officials. The investigation revealed that high ranking officials of Jefferson County had come together a few days after the massacre to discuss the release of the affidavit to the public. It was decided that because the affidavit's contents lacked the necessary probable cause to have supported the issuance of a search warrant for the Harris household by a judge, it would be best not to disclose the affidavit's existence at an upcoming press conference, although the actual conversations and points of discussion were never actually revealed to anyone other than the Grand Jury members. Following the press conference, the original Guerra documents disappeared. In September 1999, a Jefferson County investigator failed to find the documents during a secret search of the county's computer system. A second attempt in late 2000 found copies of the document within the Jefferson County archives. The documents were reconstructed and released to the public in September 2001, but the original documents are still missing. The final grand jury investigation was released in September 2004.[4]

....Because most times, it's just empty angst coming from a whiny teenager. If we started taking these kinds of words seriously everytime, we'd have no one to actually do any work on real criminals....

So, because "most times it's just empty angst coming from a whiny teenager," the smart thing to do is restrict firearms freedoms to the rest of Canada's 30 million citizens?

In a free society, you can't arrest someone for words like that. You can arrest them only if they make explicit threats (which these weren't). If you think this is a "problem", then obviously you think freedom itself is a "problem".

Too much freedom is a problem. There are plenty of firearms restrictions, registrations, and controls on firearms in Canada.

It's time for some idiot restrictions, registrations, and controls.

[ReFLeX]

One is small enough to hide under a coat and smuggle into a university building, the other isn't, but is designed accurate at up to a mile away.

Both are extremely dangerous in the hands of the wrong person.

Six of one, half dozen of the other?
They look of similar size to me. I don't think the rifle he used was either of those.

[Almo]

Well, I just learned a bit about Canadian gun law. This dude had to wait like a year to get his restricted weapons, and had to take a safety course. There was a background check, which includes more than just criminal record.

As far as I can tell, the system did the best it could. Some people just go "a little funny in the head" and kill people. It's one of the risks associated with living. The fact is, in certain cases, you can't stop someone from committing a crime. All you can do is clean up the mess afterward.

The sentiments in this post are held by my wife Trena as well, who was at Dawson when the shootings happened. So it's not from lack of proximity that I say these things. She would have been in the atrium at the school, had her teacher let them go for break at the correct time.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
One is small enough to hide under a coat and smuggle into a university building, the other isn't, but is designed accurate at up to a mile away.

Both are extremely dangerous in the hands of the wrong person.

Six of one, half dozen of the other?
They look of similar size to me.....

The lever action Winchester Model 94 trapper is 34” long, weighs 6 lbs, and is chambered in 30-30 Win., 44 Mag., 357 Mag, or 45 Colt.

The M107 Long Range Sniper Rifle is 57” long, weighs 32.5 lbs., and only fires the 50 BMG round.

Both are deadly weapons under different conditions.

I don't think the rifle he used was either of those.

Correct. I can’t seem to find an official statement as to what model weapons Gill misused, but there is this: (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/14/qc-dawsoninvestigation.html)

...Gill is believed to have been carrying at least three weapons: a handgun, a 12-gauge shotgun and a semi-automatic or automatic rifle....

My point is that the size of the rifle is meaningless. Different rifle configurations exist for rifles designed for different uses.

All can be misused efficiently to commit evil acts.

[ReFLeX]

The lever action Winchester Model 94 trapper is 34” long, weighs 6 lbs, and is chambered in 30-30 Win., 44 Mag., 357 Mag, or 45 Colt.

The M107 Long Range Sniper Rifle is 57” long, weighs 32.5 lbs., and only fires the 50 BMG round.

Both are deadly weapons under different conditions.



Correct. I can’t seem to find an official statement as to what model weapons Gill misused, but there is this: (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/14/qc-dawsoninvestigation.html)



My point is that the size of the rifle is meaningless. Different rifle configurations exist for rifles designed for different uses.

All can be misused efficiently to commit evil acts.
Sniper rifles excluded, it seems to me that the bigger the gun, the more powerful as measured in mass killing efficiency. A weapon doesn't exactly need to be "smuggled" onto a campus. They're public places.

[Huntster]

Sniper rifles excluded, it seems to me that the bigger the gun, the more powerful as measured in mass killing efficiency. A weapon doesn't exactly need to be "smuggled" onto a campus. They're public places.

One can carry firearms openly in public places like a university campus in Canada?

One of the silly positions of the gun control lobby is their "sporting use" mantra. It's a false argument. The most powerful, devastating, and tactically sound firearm available to the average citizen is a common deer hunting rifle. Available in calibers designed to kill large animals, and designed to be utilized at sniper ranges, a single round to the torso of a human is almost certainly fatal. The same can't be said of handguns and 5.56 caliber military small arms "assault rifles."

Here's an example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman) of what someone did at a university long before the term "assault rifle" was coined.

Notable in that link:

Once Whitman began facing return gunfire from the authorities, he used the waterspouts on each side of the tower as turrets, which allowed him to continue shooting while largely protected from the gunfire below, which had grown to include civilians who had brought out their personal firearms to assist police.

Police officers Conner and Shoquist remained inside the University to cover the windows on the southeast and northeast sides of the reception area. Meanwhile three other officers, Ramiro Martinez, Houston McCoy, and Jerry Day took hastily deputized citizen Allen Crum up towards the observation deck.

Unlike Gill, Whitman wasn't openly a kook. He may have been medically ill:

It was revealed during the autopsy that Whitman had a cancerous glioblastoma tumor in the hypothalamus region of his brain. Some theorised that it may have been pressed against the nearby amygdala, which can affect emotive passion. This has led some neurologists to speculate that his medical condition was in some way responsible for the attacks. [11].

After the attacks, a study of Whitman's journal showed him lamenting that he had acted violently towards Kathy, and that he was resolved not to follow his father's abusive example, but to be a good husband. John and Fran Morgan, close friends of Whitman, later told the DPS that he had confided in them that he had struck Kathleen on three occasions.

Whitman's diary entries are quite different than Gill's blog.

[Morrigan]

The majority of people don't write such things publically. This is good.

That means the number of people to scrutinized is limited to the fools who do so.

Why should they be "scrutinized" anymore than anyone else? What ever happened to freedom of speech? The guy made no threats.

Gill did.

Eric Harris did: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre)

What's your point?
Most people who wear black trench coats, listen to loud music, play violent video games, etc. don't murder people. Gill and Eric Harris did. Let's scrutinize black trench coat-wearing, loud-music listening, violent game playing people?


So, because "most times it's just empty angst coming from a whiny teenager," the smart thing to do is restrict firearms freedoms to the rest of Canada's 30 million citizens?

Excuse me... but where did I say ANYTHING about firearm restriction? Worse than a strawman, that's a fabrication.


Too much freedom is a problem.

O RLY?

There are plenty of firearms restrictions, registrations, and controls on firearms in Canada.

It's time for some idiot restrictions, registrations, and controls.
What, exactly, do you have in mind?

Well, I just learned a bit about Canadian gun law. This dude had to wait like a year to get his restricted weapons, and had to take a safety course. There was a background check, which includes more than just criminal record.

As far as I can tell, the system did the best it could. Some people just go "a little funny in the head" and kill people. It's one of the risks associated with living. The fact is, in certain cases, you can't stop someone from committing a crime. All you can do is clean up the mess afterward.
Exactly. No system is perfect. In this case, fewer restrictions would have changed nothing. More restrictions probably wouldn't either, but if they had indeed prevented this crime, they could have also impeded honest citizens who want guns. Personally, I don't think gun control has anything to do with this story.