Most Haunted - Yvette caught out

[richardm]

I haven't seen this video before, so perhaps you haven't either. It made me laugh so I'm sharing it anyway. It's Yvette Fielding being less-than-honest during a ouija board session (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGzoVkbNsH8&mode=related&search=). I wonder how that programme manages to keep going - surely any credibility it might have had must be shot to pieces by now, even for the wooiest of woos.

[Irish Murdoch]

I haven't seen this video before, so perhaps you haven't either. It made me laugh so I'm sharing it anyway. It's Yvette Fielding being less-than-honest during a ouija board session (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGzoVkbNsH8&mode=related&search=). I wonder how that programme manages to keep going - surely any credibility it might have had must be shot to pieces by now, even for the wooiest of woos.

Heh! Heh! You can barely see her finger move at all, can you? ;)

[Bob Klase]

Well obviously the spirit was trying to move the glass, but it was dark and it moved her finger by accident.

[I'll_buy_that]

it also made her take a deep breath and deny it :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlvphVWskOg

[pjh]

The ouija board has been explained by 'skeptics' as an ideomotor effect.
http://www.skepdic.com/ideomotor.html

Strangely enough, I just don't buy it (the ideomotor explanation that is).

I think it is reasonable when explaining dowsing. A tiny unconscious movement can cause a big movement in the tensed twig or the precariously balanced coathangers.

However, the force required (to move a glass and 3 other arms) and the spelling of words seem to be well beyond anything that be done subconsciously.

So my assertion is that when the pointer moves, at least one person is deliberately moving it to spell out a word.

Clearly, even those who are attached to ideomotor explanation must admit that in the course of the history of ouija sessions, some have been moved by the deliberate action of an attendee.

Is there any experiment or test that could be performed that is capable of convincing an independent 3rd party (me) that what we're seeing is ideomotor and not someone having some fun?

[Jimbo07]

Is there any experiment or test that could be performed that is capable of convincing an independent 3rd party (me) that what we're seeing is ideomotor and not someone having some fun?

That's tough.

Back when I was into ouija boards it felt like it was moving on its own. A friend confessed afterward that he was the one moving it, but it really didn't feel like a force in any one direction. He must have been well practiced...

[pjh]

Back when I was into ouija boards it felt like it was moving on its own. A friend confessed afterward that he was the one moving it, but it really didn't feel like a force in any one direction. He must have been well practiced...
I'm intrigued - how would it have felt different to you?

His finger is moving the glass/pointer, would you expect it to feel different depending on whether it was under his conscious control or not?

[RSLancastr]

The ouija board has been explained by 'skeptics' as an ideomotor effect.I don't know of any skeptic who says that this is always the case, but it is a definite possibility.

For one thing, it doesn't require the force to move "three other arms." When one person is "having fun" at a oija board (I was such a person in my youth), the others will feel the planchette "trying to move," and will move their hands along with it. Besides, all parties are supposed to have their fingertips touching it very lightly.

I would venture to guess that in the vast majority of cases, it is someone intentionally moving the planchette. But I am open to the possibility that the ideomotor effect may be at play in other cases, particularly those times when only one person is using the board, and swears that they were not moving it intentionally. At that point, you can either call them a liar, or suggest the ideomotor effect as a possible explanation.

[exarch]

For one thing, it doesn't require the force to move "three other arms." When one person is "having fun" at a oija board (I was such a person in my youth), the others will feel the planchette "trying to move," and will move their hands along with it. Besides, all parties are supposed to have their fingertips touching it very lightly.

Wouldn't they be "moving along" to someone's unintended ideomotor-twitch starting it moving? And once it starts moving they'll keep it moving towards a letter or something. And I'd say it's also very likely that people are unintentionally going to slow it down to keep it from moving off the board if that was about to happen, which would result in movement in the other direction back towards the center of the board.

[bjb]

My understanding is that the Ouija board will not work when the test subject is blindfolded. This means the subjects need to see where the planchette is moving, otherwise, the 'forces' involved don't work. How is this *not* the ideomotor effect?

[pjh]

I don't know of any skeptic who says that this is always the case, but it is a definite possibility.

Well have a look at this explanation in the Skepdic:

The movement of the planchette is not due to paranormal forces but to unnoticeable movements by those controlling the pointer, known as the ideomotor effect. The same kind of unnoticeable movement is at work in dowsing.
http://skepdic.com/ouija.html
Yes the previous paragraph does refer to conscious movement, but that sentence implies that the sole cause of the movement is ideomotor.

For one thing, it doesn't require the force to move "three other arms." When one person is "having fun" at a oija board (I was such a person in my youth), the others will feel the planchette "trying to move," and will move their hands along with it. Besides, all parties are supposed to have their fingertips touching it very lightly.
I still think that the amount of force required is an order of magnitude more than needed to tip a dowsing rod. Also the ability of the subconscious to answer questions and point letter by letter to the answer seems a completely unsubstantiated claim.

I would venture to guess that in the vast majority of cases, it is someone intentionally moving the planchette.
I agree, but why does (for example) the skeptic dictionary not say something like that very clearly. It seems (to me) that certain skeptics are attached to their clever/intellectual explanations.

But I am open to the possibility that the ideomotor effect may be at play in other cases, particularly those times when only one person is using the board, and swears that they were not moving it intentionally. At that point, you can either call them a liar, or suggest the ideomotor effect as a possible explanation.

Well we're all 'open' aren't we, but in occam's razor style, why accept a complicated unprovable explanation, when a far more prosaic one is to hand?

The so called act of Hypnotism proves that asubstantial number of people will go along with a social convention.
At any ouija table there is normally:
- The person who setup/organised the event (who would lose face if nothing happened).
- Their friends, who will help because who would so see their friend embarrassed if nothing happened?
- Probably someone who has their own agenda as to what the answers should be
- Probably someone who 'believes' in the paranormal, and is willing to move the glass to promote that belief.
- Probably someone having a bit of fun.

Once again I ask, can you think of any way of proving/showing that it is ideomotor rather than plain simple conscious pushing? If not how one earth do any 'skeptics' here still consider it a plausible explanation?

[Big Les]

My understanding is that the Ouija board will not work when the test subject is blindfolded. This means the subjects need to see where the planchette is moving, otherwise, the 'forces' involved don't work. How is this *not* the ideomotor effect?

Answer this please, Mr Thread Starter. Just because you say ideomotor is an inadequate theory, does not make it so. To me it seems perfectly adequate, and far more so than say, "spirits" moving the planchette.

The above is correct; ouija boards don't work if the participants are blindfolded. Therefore it seems reasonable to suggest either duplicity or ideomotor as explanations.

Or do the ghosts need to use human eyes to see?

[Garrette]

The ouija board has been explained by 'skeptics' as an ideomotor effect.
http://www.skepdic.com/ideomotor.html

Strangely enough, I just don't buy it (the ideomotor explanation that is).

I think it is reasonable when explaining dowsing. A tiny unconscious movement can cause a big movement in the tensed twig or the precariously balanced coathangers.

However, the force required (to move a glass and 3 other arms) and the spelling of words seem to be well beyond anything that be done subconsciously.

So my assertion is that when the pointer moves, at least one person is deliberately moving it to spell out a word.

Clearly, even those who are attached to ideomotor explanation must admit that in the course of the history of ouija sessions, some have been moved by the deliberate action of an attendee.

Is there any experiment or test that could be performed that is capable of convincing an independent 3rd party (me) that what we're seeing is ideomotor and not someone having some fun?Easy.

Do it by yourself, unblindfolded. Neither try to move or not to move the planchette, but spell your name by thinking of them in order.

[Darat]

Answer this please, Mr Thread Starter. Just because you say ideomotor is an inadequate theory, does not make it so. To me it seems perfectly adequate, and far more so than say, "spirits" moving the planchette.

The above is correct; ouija boards don't work if the participants are blindfolded. Therefore it seems reasonable to suggest either duplicity or ideomotor as explanations.

Or do the ghosts need to use human eyes to see?

They also don't work if no one is touching the planchette... strange that. :)

[pjh]

Easy.

Do it by yourself, unblindfolded. Neither try to move or not to move the planchette, but spell your name by thinking of them in order.

OK that didn't work. I had a glass and a 2 bits of paper with YES and NO written on them. I then asked myself "was I a devilishy handsome and clever chap", rested my finger lightly on the upturned glass and waited.

My hypotheses was that my subconscious would answer the question with a resounding YES, however after 5 minutes nothing had happened.

May I now conclude that the ideomotor effect is rubbish or merely that my subconscious has no opinion on my looks and intelligence?

Answer this please, Mr Thread Starter. Just because you say ideomotor is an inadequate theory,
You talking to me?

[exarch]

They also don't work if no one is touching the planchette... strange that. :)

I was going to make that comment yesterday, but thought it would be too obvious. But by now, the conversation has moved to a point where, apparently, it's needed to spell it out ...

[exarch]

OK that didn't work. I had a glass and a 2 bits of paper with YES and NO written on them. I then asked myself "was I a devilishy handsome and clever chap", rested my finger lightly on the upturned glass and waited.

My hypotheses was that my subconscious would answer the question with a resounding YES, however after 5 minutes nothing had happened.

May I now conclude that the ideomotor effect is rubbish or merely that my subconscious has no opinion on my looks and intelligence?

Or your glass is too heavy, just like Yvette's ...

[Garrette]

OK that didn't work. I had a glass and a 2 bits of paper with YES and NO written on them. I then asked myself "was I a devilishy handsome and clever chap", rested my finger lightly on the upturned glass and waited.

My hypotheses was that my subconscious would answer the question with a resounding YES, however after 5 minutes nothing had happened.Thanks for trying, but you didn't do what I asked.

The "Yes/No" thing is fine, but don't assume your subconscious will choose one. You need to consciously choose one.

[Anecdotale Mode]: My 13 year old son discovered the Ouija board just over a year ago and had a blast with it. When he asked me how it works, I told him about the ideomotor effect. He was thrilled with the explanation, but disappointed because it no longer worked. I surmised that the reason it no longer worked was that he stopped trying to think of anything to make it move, so I told him to concentrate on not consciously moving his hand but to consciously pick an answer.

It worked.[/Anecdotal Mode]

And, as exarch said, you may simply need a lighter glass.

May I now conclude that the ideomotor effect is rubbish or merely that my subconscious has no opinion on my looks and intelligence?
No.

At best this will show that it didn't work for you. It does not remove the evidence about the ideomotor effect existing.


Question: Has it ever worked for you?

[richardm]

Or your glass is too heavy, just like Yvette's ...

A combination of that and the fact she was wearing a leather glove, methinks.

I've always thought it obvious that if real ghosts were involved you'd still need to touch the planchette. Ghosts as a rule can't move things around, you apparently have to be a special type of ghost to do that and even then it tends to be chucking things around rather than precision movment. So they're influencing you to move your arm to move the glass, supposedly. The blindfold test is a better one, I think ghosts should be able to see (ghosts of blind people notwithstanding).

Whether the movement is due to the ideomotor effect or deliberate pushing is an interesting question. How strong do the forces really need to be, once the thing gets moving? And even if the forces have to be quite strong, does that automatically mean they can't be involuntary?

[Garrette]

Whether the movement is due to the ideomotor effect or deliberate pushing is an interesting question. How strong do the forces really need to be, once the thing gets moving?
They are not mutually exclusive.

And one need only tape a penny to a string and watch it begin to move in circles or straight lines (according to your thought) to know that ideomotor effect exists.

[Darat]

I was going to make that comment yesterday, but thought it would be too obvious. But by now, the conversation has moved to a point where, apparently, it's needed to spell it out ...

I think sometimes the simple points are overlooked as being "too obvious" but I'm simple so I like to start with the simple first!

[richardm]

They are not mutually exclusive.

And one need only tape a penny to a string and watch it begin to move in circles or straight lines (according to your thought) to know that ideomotor effect exists.

I've no doubt that the effect exists, just curious if it's really strong enough to cause something big to move.

[Darat]

There is a great site about the history of the "talking board": http://www.museumoftalkingboards.com/history.html

[Garrette]

I've no doubt that the effect exists, just curious if it's really strong enough to cause something big to move.Fair enough.

As I have had it work for me, in the manner I've described to pjh, I have no such doubts, at least when we're talking about a planchette. I haven't done it with a glass such as in the video.

[exarch]

As I have had it work for me, in the manner I've described to pjh, I have no such doubts, at least when we're talking about a planchette. I haven't done it with a glass such as in the video.

The planchette is light, and only has a few points of contact. That means it has a lot less friction than an upturned glass.
(Stating the obvious, for Darat ;))

[Garrette]

The planchette is light, and only has a few points of contact. That means it has a lot less friction than an upturned glass.
(Stating the obvious, for Darat ;))That seems to weaken my case.

Therefore I invoke the right of changing my testimony and my memory. Ahem:

Oh, wait! I actually did use a glass once. It was big. A really big glass. 4 pounds, I think, or maybe five. Yeah, at least that. And it was glued to the table. Moved quite well with the ideomotor effect.

[pjh]

And, as exarch said, you may simply need a lighter glass.
I presumed exarch was being funny, as I hope no one is so credulous to believe that it was an ideomotor effect moving Yvette's glass!

So let me rephrase all this:
What evidence do you have that the ideomotor effect is taking place (in any ouija board session)?
How do you distinguish between the far more mundane explanation - "conscious action" and ideomotor?

May I remind you that for a theory/explanation to have any meaning in our (skeptical) world it must be falsifiable. I cannot see anyway to construct a test that could falsify this effect, but I remain open to someone outlining such a test to me. You don't need to conduct the test, just explain it.

Why then to rational skeptics cling to this as an explanatory theory?

[edited to add]
And without being rude, there are plenty of paranormal forums where I can hear plenty of "it happened to me" and "my son did this ..." type evidence/anecdotes.

[Garrette]

Well, pjh, on further consideration, you may be right. It may be that I can't rule out conscious effort. Whether or not there is scientific research that has done so, I don't know.

It doesn't bother me, though.

That being said, have you tried the planchette in the revised manner I told you? As it is only anecdotal it will not, of course, constitute proof, but it should suffice to show you, individually, that the possibility at least exists that ideomotor is sufficient.

[exarch]

I presumed exarch was being funny, as I hope no one is so credulous to believe that it was an ideomotor effect moving Yvette's glass!

And here I thought it was the entire universe being moved, with the exception of Yvette's finger ...

[Tamazon]

Or do the ghosts need to use human eyes to see?

According to some nutcases on a P&T BS episode.

Yes.

[Cuddles]

I believe Feynman addressed a similar point in one of his autobiographies. A magician could get a person to lead them to a specfic place just by holding their hand lightly and jiggling slightly. When they moved in the wrong direction the person would resist slightly more, so the correct position could be determined. This is effectively the ideomotor effect moving an entire person, so a claim that it can't move large things is silly.

For a ouija a small ideomotor effect in one person can cause the other people to react to it and move in that direction, conciously or unconciously. The ideomotor effect does not have to move the whole weight of three other peope's arms, it just causes them to move themselves.

[bjb]

OK that didn't work. I had a glass and a 2 bits of paper with YES and NO written on them. I then asked myself "was I a devilishy handsome and clever chap", rested my finger lightly on the upturned glass and waited.

My hypotheses was that my subconscious would answer the question with a resounding YES, however after 5 minutes nothing had happened.

May I now conclude that the ideomotor effect is rubbish or merely that my subconscious has no opinion on my looks and intelligence?

You have achieved the expected result. You were actually testing to see if the ideomotor effect was true or not, and both your conscious and subconscious mind was biased against the effect. The ideomotor effect will not work if you are aware of it and you don't want it to happen.

A proper experiment would be to find a test subject who could get the Ouija board to work. Let the subject demonstrate their ability, then blindfold them. The board should stop working at this point. Of course, the subject must not be told that the ideomotor effect is being tested otherwise nothing will happen in either part of the test.

[pjh]

I believe Feynman addressed a similar point in one of his autobiographies. A magician could get a person to lead them to a specfic place just by holding their hand lightly and jiggling slightly. When they moved in the wrong direction the person would resist slightly more, so the correct position could be determined. This is effectively the ideomotor effect moving an entire person, so a claim that it can't move large things is silly.

For a ouija a small ideomotor effect in one person can cause the other people to react to it and move in that direction, conciously or unconciously. The ideomotor effect does not have to move the whole weight of three other peope's arms, it just causes them to move themselves.
Well hold on one second there cuddles before you go calling anyones claims silly!

You have just based your reasoning on watching a magician's trick.

So let me ask you if "are you a magician, and have you ever performed such a trick". If the answer is no, then don't be so quick bringing magic tricks in as proof of anything. I can assure you that it is you being silly in taking the magician's explanation of that trick at face value.

A proper experiment would be to find a test subject who could get the Ouija board to work. Let the subject demonstrate their ability, then blindfold them. The board should stop working at this point. Of course, the subject must not be told that the ideomotor effect is being tested otherwise nothing will happen in either part of the test.
I'm sorry but how does that help explain anything? How does that sort a subject who is doing it consciously from one what is 'under the influence' of the ideomotor effect?

[John Jackson]

You have just based your reasoning on watching a magician's trick.

So let me ask you if "are you a magician, and have you ever performed such a trick". If the answer is no, then don't be so quick bringing magic tricks in as proof of anything. I can assure you that it is you being silly in taking the magician's explanation of that trick at face value.

It is known as "muscle reading" and it's what mentalists do to appear to be doing paranormal feats.

Cuddles is correct.

[bjb]

pjh, I see your point. The blindfold test only proves that *spirits* are not likely to be involved. However, the assumption is that the participant is not a determined liar. They have to honestly believe they are recieving messages from the spirit world and it is up to the experimenters to find an earnest test subject.

Essentially your point is that everybody who uses a Ouija board does it on purpose, but this does not explain why some people truly believe in them. The more I learn about skepticism the more I realize that people are capable of extreme amounts of self-delusion. Over the summer I read "The Demon-Haunted World", "Flim-Flam!", and "Why People Believe Strange Things". After reading these books, the ideomotor effect seems to require a relatively modest amount of self-delusion compared to the other beliefs that are out there.

[pjh]

If muscle reading is subconscious (which I doubt but don't want to get into here) and it works as stated then it involves the mentalist detecting small differences in resistance as he waggles the subjects arm. Suffice to say, that like 'hypnotism' a 'willing' volunteer who knows something (and is willing to guide the mentalist) can guide the mentalist to that thing.

Even if it is as claimed, it is like dowsing - a tiny movement/tensing of muscles, nothing like what we see in an ouija session.

On a ouija board you make large sweeping gestures to reach the letters, you need to be able to understand a question and spell the answer - none of which seems to have any relevance to 'muscle reading'.

Why is this important? - because the scandal of 'facilitated communication' is being explained as 'ideomotor', which I believe lets a number of deceitful and self-serving people off the hook far too easily.
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-05-25.html

Much of the desire for things like ideomotor to be true seems to come (even with skeptics) from a desire to think the best of people - "They cannot all be liars/frauds".

[exarch]

Much of the desire for things like ideomotor to be true seems to come (even with skeptics) from a desire to think the best of people - "They cannot all be liars/frauds".

Nobody is saying that there are never Ouija sessions where people are pushing the planchette around. But come on, there's people out there who use a ouija board on their own, and unless they were really deluded and completely disregarded the fact they are consciously pushing the planchette around themselves, how could they see the results as being spelled out by spirits/ghosts? There must be something else going on, which ideomotor effect explains very nicely. And that same explanation could also account for a large number of multi-person ouija sessions where nobody is consciously pushing the planchette around.

[pjh]

Nobody is saying that there are never Ouija sessions where people are pushing the planchette around. But come on, there's people out there who use a ouija board on their own, and unless they were really deluded and completely disregarded the fact they are consciously pushing the planchette around themselves, how could they see the results as being spelled out by spirits/ghosts? There must be something else going on, which ideomotor effect explains very nicely. And that same explanation could also account for a large number of multi-person ouija sessions where nobody is consciously pushing the planchette around.

I'm sorry but I don't find "come on" a convincing argument.

The ouija board was originally invented as a party game (for more than one person). The vast majority of uses of the board are in group situations. The very few solo uses I have seen are by 'professional' psychics who use them as a tool, and no I wouldn't accept that they are genuinely fooling themselves.

The only people who's solo use of the ouija board I'd accept as genuine would be those who'd refuse to admit it! Once you're prepared to give a public demonstration of the solo use of a ouija board, then you have plenty of motive to fake the session consciously. As to how many people have used a ouija board solo, 'made contact' using the ideomotor effect- and then never told anyone - I have no idea, but then again neither do you, and to use this as 'evidence' for the ideomotor seems to be entirely wrong.

And what evidence do you have that at *any* multi-person ouija session there have been nobody conciously pushing, let alone this 'large number' that you've plucked from somewhere.

Let's face it, ideomotor (as an explanation for ouija) is a woo-woo belief. You believe in it because you want to or it makes you feel smart and clever. There is no real evidence for it, and nobody has even been able to *suggest* a test to prove it.

[exarch]

Let's face it, ideomotor (as an explanation for ouija) is a woo-woo belief. You believe in it because you want to or it makes you feel smart and clever. There is no real evidence for it, and nobody has even been able to *suggest* a test to prove it.

Aha! A big claim has just been made. "Ideomotor effect doesn't exist and there's no evidence to support it". This is what you just claimed? Right? Just making sure ...

[chracatoa]

My understanding is that the Ouija board will not work when the test subject is blindfolded.

It works, but you can't see the answer ;)

[pjh]

Are there any fallacious arguing tactics you're not going to use to defend your belief?

Clearly I am skeptical of the ideomotor effect, but I clearly am not discounting it as an explanation for dowsing. So I am not claiming it doesn't exist.

But yes, I'm don't believe the claim that when you sit down at an ouija board your subconscious:

- Wants to (and does) role-play a ghost/spirit.
- Can process English questions, and formulate/fake/make-up answers 'in character' of the spirit.
- Can then can move your hand letter by letter to spell out that answer.

All of this without your 'conscious mind' being involved. That's what YOU are claiming (and calling 'ideomotor effect')

I,

- Believe that it is a ludicrous claim
- Have seen no evidence at all to support it.
- Cannot even imagine a test or experiment that could.

[trvlr2]

PJH- FYI,

http://skepdic.com/ideomotor.html

" Scientific tests by American psychologist William James, French chemist Michel Chevreul, English scientist Michael Faraday (Zusne and Jones 1989: 111), and American psychologist Ray Hyman have demonstrated that many phenomena attributed to spiritual or paranormal forces, or to mysterious "energies," are actually due to ideomotor action. Furthermore, these tests demonstrate that "honest, intelligent people can unconsciously engage in muscular activity that is consistent with their expectations" (Hyman 1999). They also show that suggestions that can guide behavior can be given by subtle clues (Hyman 1977)."

So, it appears that people have at least two minds,conscious and unconscious,which may not communicate mentally, but through the body. Ie, I may wish to be or appear to be impartial, but conscious volition seems to be necessary to accomplish the ideomotor effect.
On high quibble, this would imply "cheating" , as no effect is noticed sans expectation.
I think that this demonstrates that our conscious mind is not always in
direct control,and personally,I find this notion causes me much discomfort.
:blush:

[pjh]

PJH- FYI,

http://skepdic.com/ideomotor.html

I think that this demonstrates that our conscious mind is not always in
direct control,and personally,I find this notion causes me much discomfort.
:blush:

Let me repeat myself once again.

I'm questioning the ideomotor as an explanation for the ouija board. Hyman's tests were of dowsing and rubbing plates, two devices set-up so that very tiny muscular movements cause big effects (swinging for dowsing and sticking for the plate).

How do they in any way relate to what we see happens with a ouija?

Maybe you do make a tiny movement of your hand when you know you're over water without realising it. The rod swings wildly and you aren't consciously aware of the movement you made that caused it.

How does this explain role-playing a spirit, answering questions and then spelling them out one letter at a time?

[bjb]

pjh, I'm starting to think you're on to something. Here's what got me thinking: in the second Yvette video, she exhales, then 'pretends' that she heard a ghost make a breathing sound. But what if she isn't pretending? What if she exhaled without thinking and genuinely surprised herself with her own breathing? If this is true, then she really thinks that she heard a ghost and honestly didn't realize she simply heard herself breathing.

Now suppose Yvette is using a Ouija board and her ideomotor response makes her hand move slightly. How is she going to react? Either she will resist the motion (not likely) or consciously go along with it. She will believe a spirit nudged her hand toward a spot on the board so she'll purposely move the marker the rest of the way. Later, she can claim that she didn't consciously move the marker and strictly speaking, she wouldn't be lying. The spirit moved it first and she just helped it along.

If my idea is correct, the Ouija board doesn't move purely by the ideomotor response. It's a mixture of ideomotor effect, conscious action, and self-delusion (to cover up the conscious action). After watching those Most Haunted clips, I think Yvette is quite capable of tricking herself into believing she didn't move a Ouija board pointer by conscious action.

[blutoski]

The ouija board has been explained by 'skeptics' as an ideomotor effect.
http://www.skepdic.com/ideomotor.html

Strangely enough, I just don't buy it (the ideomotor explanation that is).

I think it is reasonable when explaining dowsing. A tiny unconscious movement can cause a big movement in the tensed twig or the precariously balanced coathangers.

However, the force required (to move a glass and 3 other arms) and the spelling of words seem to be well beyond anything that be done subconsciously.

So my assertion is that when the pointer moves, at least one person is deliberately moving it to spell out a word.

Clearly, even those who are attached to ideomotor explanation must admit that in the course of the history of ouija sessions, some have been moved by the deliberate action of an attendee.

Is there any experiment or test that could be performed that is capable of convincing an independent 3rd party (me) that what we're seeing is ideomotor and not someone having some fun?


One idea about this is the illusion of randomness. Participants have the same cultural background, and will have the same subconscious behavior, so you don't need one person to 'direct' the activity.

Two features we would expect from this theory:

1. there should be more hesitation at the start of words or phrases than at the end... somebody has to start the cascade, but once you're a few letters into a word, it should speed up as everybody knows how to finish it.

2. the board would not have words people will need to look up. The deceased will not, for example, transmit in Croatian.

A test based on #2: have six participants, none of whom speak the same language. It'd be interesting to see the results.

[Darat]

Let me repeat myself once again.

I'm questioning the ideomotor as an explanation for the ouija board. Hyman's tests were of dowsing and rubbing plates, two devices set-up so that very tiny muscular movements cause big effects (swinging for dowsing and sticking for the plate).

How do they in any way relate to what we see happens with a ouija?

Maybe you do make a tiny movement of your hand when you know you're over water without realising it. The rod swings wildly and you aren't consciously aware of the movement you made that caused it.

How does this explain role-playing a spirit, answering questions and then spelling them out one letter at a time?

A "real" (i.e. one on casters) planchette is a very sensitive pointer needing very little force to move it so I think that could be explained by the ideomotor effect and feedback once it's started to move. However like you I am very doubtful that it accounts for movement of pointers such as glasses over a rough surface. That is just people "consciously" and deliberately moving the glass.

[Darat]

....snip...

1. there should be more hesitation at the start of words or phrases than at the end... somebody has to start the cascade, but once you're a few letters into a word, it should speed up as everybody knows how to finish it.

...snip...

All the times I've used one with friends this is exactly how it seemed to be. It would be an interesting and quite simple experiment to try.

[GlennB]

....
1. there should be more hesitation at the start of words or phrases than at the end... somebody has to start the cascade, but once you're a few letters into a word, it should speed up as everybody knows how to finish it.
.....

That's exactly what does happen. And the words flow quicker towards the end of each sentence. Then - lordy - subsequent words+sentences form quicker as context develops.

Been there. Shame on me. But it was fun at the time.

(sorry if this kind of stuff has aleady been said - just leaping into the debate here)

[exarch]

A "real" (i.e. one on casters) planchette is a very sensitive pointer needing very little force to move it so I think that could be explained by the ideomotor effect and feedback once it's started to move. However like you I am very doubtful that it accounts for movement of pointers such as glasses over a rough surface. That is just people "consciously" and deliberately moving the glass.

Moving glasses is a completely different thing from moving a ouija board coaster though. When people are using a ouija board to get "messages", they will generally not be using a glass on a rough surface, but a ouija coaster on a smooth wooden board.

And the ideomotor (http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Facilitated_Communication) effect has been shown to be a very real phenomenon. I think the main reason there's not that much research into ouija boards and their suspected mode of operation is probably because there's simply more interesting research yet to be carried out first.

[tsig]

Nobody is saying that there are never Ouija sessions where people are pushing the planchette around. But come on, there's people out there who use a ouija board on their own, and unless they were really deluded and completely disregarded the fact they are consciously pushing the planchette around themselves, how could they see the results as being spelled out by spirits/ghosts? There must be something else going on, which ideomotor effect explains very nicely. And that same explanation could also account for a large number of multi-person ouija sessions where nobody is consciously pushing the planchette around.

You never use it by yourself if you want results.

[tsig]

I'm sorry but I don't find "come on" a convincing argument.

The ouija board was originally invented as a party game (for more than one person). The vast majority of uses of the board are in group situations. The very few solo uses I have seen are by 'professional' psychics who use them as a tool, and no I wouldn't accept that they are genuinely fooling themselves.

The only people who's solo use of the ouija board I'd accept as genuine would be those who'd refuse to admit it! Once you're prepared to give a public demonstration of the solo use of a ouija board, then you have plenty of motive to fake the session consciously. As to how many people have used a ouija board solo, 'made contact' using the ideomotor effect- and then never told anyone - I have no idea, but then again neither do you, and to use this as 'evidence' for the ideomotor seems to be entirely wrong.

And what evidence do you have that at *any* multi-person ouija session there have been nobody conciously pushing, let alone this 'large number' that you've plucked from somewhere.

Let's face it, ideomotor (as an explanation for ouija) is a woo-woo belief. You believe in it because you want to or it makes you feel smart and clever. There is no real evidence for it, and nobody has even been able to *suggest* a test to prove it.

As a party game it needs no explation

[pjh]

So how far are people willing to go with ideomotor as an explanation?

What about automatic writing, could someone write a page of text with a pen without being consciously aware of what they're doing?

Also (based on the example of Yvette's gasp) what about speaking in tongues? Could the ideomotor effect explain that?

Also, where do things like tourettes fit into all this?

[bjb]

I still think the ideomotor effect can explain how a group of users gets a Ouija board to work, but now I have serious doubts that it explains the single-user case. Here's something else that depends upon psychological factors:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3443125822374384435

These guys in the yellow shirts believe they can focus their chi and knock other people down. Of course, if the attacker doesn't believe in chi the guys in the yellow shirts will recieve a rude surprise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw

'Something' is making these grown men fall down on the ground but it isn't chi or the ideomotor effect. I don't know why they fall but whatever the reason is, it might be the same mechanism that makes the Ouija board work for single users.

[Garrette]

I still think the ideomotor effect can explain how a group of users gets a Ouija board to work, but now I have serious doubts that it explains the single-user case. Here's something else that depends upon psychological factors:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3443125822374384435

These guys in the yellow shirts believe they can focus their chi and knock other people down. Of course, if the attacker doesn't believe in chi the guys in the yellow shirts will recieve a rude surprise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw

'Something' is making these grown men fall down on the ground but it isn't chi or the ideomotor effect. I don't know why they fall but whatever the reason is, it might be the same mechanism that makes the Ouija board work for single users.I don't remember the term (or even if there is one term), but I would class this more along the lines of the particpating members at some religious gatherings. Those folks who fall down when Benny Hinn shouts "Heal!". Or those who spontaneously exhibit glossolalia (sp?).

[pjh]

A number of posters have raised the point that a perfect planchette needs very little force to push it. This is being used to somehow save the ideomotor as an explanation for ouija.

I'd just like to note that the standard ideomotor effect (dowsing and the chiro rubbing patch that have been tested) is observed where not only is a tiny subconscious force required, but also minimal or no actual movement occurs.

For example, the dowser doesn't think 'My hand moved and tipped the rod - but gee I've no idea what caused my hand to move.'

Surely the accepted ideomotor effect is a tiny force *AND* a tiny movement?

To reach from letter to letter on an oiuja, repeated movements of several centimetres are required, and remember you're actually moving the pointer, your hand and all the lower arm to reach each letter. So you're actually moving maybe a kilo or so of matter for each movement. F=ma, work = Force x Distance and all that!

Why is conscious fraud not a far better explanation for all oiuja board movement?

[Stray Cat]

Juvenille I know, but funny as......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiT7MtEG5Do&mode=related&search=

[Darat]

A number of posters have raised the point that a perfect planchette needs very little force to push it. This is being used to somehow save the ideomotor as an explanation for ouija.


I did point that out but not to "save" any theory but as an actual fact.


I'd just like to note that the standard ideomotor effect (dowsing and the chiro rubbing patch that have been tested) is observed where not only is a tiny subconscious force required, but also minimal or no actual movement occurs.

...snip...


The ideometer effect is a movement of the person's body, but one that a person doesn't seem to acknowledge.


Surely the accepted ideomotor effect is a tiny force *AND* a tiny movement?


I always thought the lack of acknowledgement by the person that it is the person themselves that is applying the force is part and parcel of the ideometer effect?

[Garrette]

A number of posters have raised the point that a perfect planchette needs very little force to push it. This is being used to somehow save the ideomotor as an explanation for ouija.

I'd just like to note that the standard ideomotor effect (dowsing and the chiro rubbing patch that have been tested) is observed where not only is a tiny subconscious force required, but also minimal or no actual movement occurs.

For example, the dowser doesn't think 'My hand moved and tipped the rod - but gee I've no idea what caused my hand to move.'

Surely the accepted ideomotor effect is a tiny force *AND* a tiny movement?

To reach from letter to letter on an oiuja, repeated movements of several centimetres are required, and remember you're actually moving the pointer, your hand and all the lower arm to reach each letter. So you're actually moving maybe a kilo or so of matter for each movement. F=ma, work = Force x Distance and all that!

Why is conscious fraud not a far better explanation for all oiuja board movement?You're emulating Zeno, I think.

The aggregate movement is large for the planchette, just as the aggregate movement of the penny at the end of a string swinging in circles is large.

But the motive force need only be small.

You've caused me (and I think one other) to rethink ideomotor as an explanation for at least some things (particularly a large glass), but you've not succeeded in replacing it as an explanation for the planchette.

Plus, what Darat said.

[pjh]

I always thought the lack of acknowledgement by the person that it is the person themselves that is applying the force is part and parcel of the ideometer effect?
I disagree, part of the ideomotor effect's 'power' so to speak, it that to the subject it appears that nothing physical happened at all.

Let's take the 3 examples we're all in relative agreement about:

Dowsing
The rod appears to move because it detects water/gold/whatever. At no stage is the dowser aware that their hand moved at all.

Chiropractic rubbing
Again the subject isn't aware that they have increased pressure on the pad, to them it just appears to stick.

'Telekinetic Pendulums'
Again, when the subject mentally moves the swing of a pendulum, they're not aware that their hands moved at all to redirect the swing.

All situations which have been 'studied' all have both minute forces and tiny movements in common.

How can you extrapolate from these examples to this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ktEhTUMjqXw :)

[exarch]

As someone posted before, once the thing is moving, you're just "going along", or at least, you think that's what you're doing. But is that really true? Are you really just "moving along", or are you "moving along" to where ever you believe you should be moving. As pointed out, that planchette is really, really light. Especially compared to the weight of your arm which you're already keeping up. You're not putting the full weight of your arm on that planchette, and neither is anyone else, because then you can't feel and move along with any tiny movements that planchette makes. Rather, you're just lightly keeping your fingers on the planchette, and your shoulder is bearing the full weight of your arm. So any tiny twitch any muscle in your shoulder, elbow or wrist makes is going to cause "a movement" in the planchette which you would consider external because you're unaware it originates in your own shoulder. Staying absolutely motionless is something that's really hard for our muscles to keep up for long.