Challenge Application Proving existence of God [Archive] - Page 2

eri

15th September 2006, 03:12 PM

hello all, i'm new to this spot and i've been reading most of the posts of this thread and some others. I felt the need to add my thoughts here.

I see that there are many non-believers of the exsistence of God or a higher power. And it worried me to know that there are so many people not aware of the blessings of the Lord given on a daily.

I want all of you to understand that even though there are so many religions out there that claim to have all the answers and all the truths to life and God, or gods, there is only but one truth. The truth is that there is an omnipotent presence in all of us that drives us to live on in our life. It gives us free will to beleive or disbelieve what is real and unreal. But without that presence there can be no life and no existance. Nothing but darkness would be here.

There is also intelligence to this Supreme Being. It is written in the DNA of all things we know. We strive in life to be just like the Creator of All Things. We come up with ideas and draw out a bluprint and create, that which we "will" into being is brought into our wourld. We invent these new things and constantly improve on them.

We set up systems of rule, like the 10 commandments. We build kingdoms, like the Kingdom Of Heaven, and we also make war, like the Holy war faught in Heaven. We condemn criminals and brand them as criminals, just like the striking down of the angels to Earth, The fallen angels, demons or devils. We also pass judgement as God did with Adam and Eve.

When we look at ourselves and the others around us we should see God because His proof of being lies in all of us.

Hi Eternal - welcome to the forums.

Do you intend to submit a challenge to prove any of the above? If so, you probably want to start a new challenge thread of your own - more people will see it that way.

However, not many people here will buy your 'argument from incredulty' - the idea that we can see evidence of God all around us because that's the only way you can concieve of everything coming into being. Many people on this forum have other ways of looking at the world.

Beleth

15th September 2006, 03:18 PM

I do not intend to convert with debate I intend to convert with PROOF.
I hate to be a wet blanket at this point, but I really need to point out something.

The test protocol we've been discussing here (whether Sally's acquaintences can detect Sally via an extrasensory method), even if successful, would not prove the existence of God.

It would demonstrate that something is going on, granted, but whether it's Jehovah or Allah or Vishnu or Satan or ESP or head trauma or chicanery or dark matter or quantum consciousness... would remain undetermined.

I asked others before if I was successful in this type of test would it change there thoughts on the existence of God.
I believe that my answer to this can be gleaned from my previous posts here, but in case it can't... my answer is No, this type of test would not, since, as I said above, the root cause would remain undetermined.

Other types of tests would... but this type would not.

I am sorry.

eri

15th September 2006, 03:23 PM

Gr8wight

15th September 2006, 03:23 PM

hello all, i'm new to this spot and i've been reading most of the posts of this thread and some others. I felt the need to add my thoughts here.

I see that there are many non-believers of the exsistence of God or a higher power. And it worried me to know that there are so many people not aware of the blessings of the Lord given on a daily.

I want all of you to understand that even though there are so many religions out there that claim to have all the answers and all the truths to life and God, or gods, there is only but one truth. The truth is that there is an omnipotent presence in all of us that drives us to live on in our life. It gives us free will to beleive or disbelieve what is real and unreal. But without that presence there can be no life and no existance. Nothing but darkness would be here.

There is also intelligence to this Supreme Being. It is written in the DNA of all things we know. We strive in life to be just like the Creator of All Things. We come up with ideas and draw out a bluprint and create, that which we "will" into being is brought into our wourld. We invent these new things and constantly improve on them.

We set up systems of rule, like the 10 commandments. We build kingdoms, like the Kingdom Of Heaven, and we also make war, like the Holy war faught in Heaven. We condemn criminals and brand them as criminals, just like the striking down of the angels to Earth, The fallen angels, demons or devils. We also pass judgement as God did with Adam and Eve.

When we look at ourselves and the others around us we should see God because His proof of being lies in all of us.

Dear Eternal_soul1981,

While your presence here is welcome, your proselytising is not. If you want to preach, go stand on a street corner. If you would like to join in a reasoned discussion regarding Sally's explorations and proposed one million dollar challenge application, you are welcome.

Gr8wight

15th September 2006, 03:27 PM

You're exactly right, Beleth. If Sally is out to proove the existance of God, this isn't the way to go. Even if she did pass the test, I don't think I'd consider the notion of a God any more than I do now - perhaps just the notion that something else is going on.

Sally, are you content to merely proove that 'something else is going on here', or do you want a test of God? Because I can't think of anything that God could do through you that would convince me of a God.

Did you have any specific test in mind, Beleth?

I think Sally is has stated that she is aware of our opinions on this matter, and simply considers this but a step on the path. As arguing with her is pointless, and guaranteed to be fruitless, I am attempting to encourage her to apply, hoping that perhaps it might set her feet onto a different path.

I believe Beleth has specifically described her proposed test earlier in the thread. Unfortunately, that is a very personal test that would only apply to Beleth, and not to the JREF challenge at large.

timokay

15th September 2006, 03:29 PM

Fertilizer only feeds the seed but it does not plant it.

Work with me for Christ's sake! Sally dumped the seed, WE spread the fertilizer, and YOU popped up!

The Atheist

15th September 2006, 03:32 PM

God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me...
Sally, I am pleased to meet you. Let's cut all the pedantic BS about which protocol you need to satisfy. You prove the existence of god and Extreme Atheists' Society will pay you a million and your example below:
Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity...
And I'll make it really, really easy for you:

You catch a plane to Iraq, today. (I'm sorry, we can't pay for you to go or we'd have every crackpot on Earth queueing up for a free holiday in Baghdad - and it'll be a nice place again once you've stopped the fighting!)

Using your god-granted powers, you will call on all sides - Coalition, Shi'ite, Shia, the lot - to put their weapons down and they will!

Hell, we'll even refund your airfares over and above the million. You have until 30 September 2006 to achieve this - a fair time frame, surely. After all, it only took your god bloke seven days to build the entire universe, you'd like to think he could knock off a minor war in a fortnight.

Cheers. Let me know when you're leaving so we can stay in touch by e mail.

If that option appeals, another acceptable challenge will involve you jumping off the centre span of the Golden Gate bridge without any mechanical aid and fly.

Either of those circumstances shall constitute final and unalterable proof that your god is indeed the god of the entire universe and I shall bow down to him once the cheque is cleared - after all, god needs cash, doesn't he?

How easy is that? No mucking about with pre-test qualifying or cumbersome rules, go get it, love! (p.s. NZ dollars, so it's only about $650,000 US, hope you don't mind :) )

fishbait

15th September 2006, 03:40 PM

...I am working to find a way to demonstrate that with the earlier method I have to see over what distance, through what materials..etc that he feels the power inside of meAre you saying that God's power might not penetrate some materials? Like blocking Superman's x-ray vision with lead, the infinite power of god might be blocked by a plaster wall?

Beleth

15th September 2006, 03:59 PM

Did you have any specific test in mind, Beleth?
I do.

The problem is, proving Himself to huge numbers of people at a time isn't Jehovah's style. The closest He ever came, according to the documents we have available, was when Jesus walked on water... but technically that wasn't Jehovah, that was Jesus.

No. Jehovah's not grandiose like that. The proof would have to come from a deeply personal event.

And yes, I have a test. A test that would convince no one but myself. An event that, if it happened, I would have to admit to myself that it is more likely for it to have happened due to Jehovah's actions than through any other cause, including hallucination.

The bad news is that it is necessarily very secret. It's a secret on more than one level. The only two beings that know about it are myself and Jehovah, because I have told Him. If anyone else knew, including my spouse, it could be arranged to happen. So even my spouse doesn't know it.

The good news is anyone who claims to have Jehovah speak through her/him can do it! It takes no special skill whatsoever. Jehovah knows what it is, and Jehovah can tell the speaker what it is. My mind doesn't have to be read at all.

After 10+ years of thinking about it, this was the most reasonable way I could think of to prove Jehovah's existence. And it still hasn't happened. But I remain open-minded, so I keep looking.

People like Sally come along often and say that they have proof. But what convinced them was personal proof, which is sufficient for them (who am I to say that their personal proof is insufficient for them?) but insufficient for me. When they try to demonstrate proof, what they try to demonstrate is public proof, which just isn't Jehovah's modus operandi. When I explain to them that I require personal proof to be sure it's Jehovah, they dismiss my requirement as a parlor trick. And that's when I start to suspect that who is talking through them is... well, to be civil, let's just say that it isn't Jehovah.

Nucular

15th September 2006, 06:46 PM

hello all, i'm new to this spot and i've been reading most of the posts of this thread and some others. I felt the need to add my thoughts here.

Welcome, ES1981. What do you think of Sally's proposed test thus far?

Feel free to start another thread discussing any of your other claims from your post :)

Nucular

15th September 2006, 06:54 PM

The test protocol we've been discussing here (whether Sally's acquaintences can detect Sally via an extrasensory method), even if successful, would not prove the existence of God.

It would demonstrate that something is going on, granted, but whether it's Jehovah or Allah or Vishnu or Satan or ESP or head trauma or chicanery or dark matter or quantum consciousness... would remain undetermined.

Hey Beleth, just to point out, a couple of us said that earlier in the thread; Saly seemed content with the fact that we would accept that omething had occurred contrary to our belief system, and would certainly listen to the successful claimant's views, but not accept them uncritically.

But I'm really curious - don't reply if it affects the outcome or gives anything away, but how can your personal test rule out, say, telepathy? Or invisible aliens recording your brainwaves?

Or is your test more of a 'deal', that if it gets fulfilled, you'll personally accept that God dunnit?

Nucular

15th September 2006, 07:02 PM

Sally, just for the record I think as a preliminary mock-up, your proposed Monday test sounds great - should be very informative, and I like the touch that you're checking that the influence doesn't still work all the way down the block.

You could try dice or coinflips as a pseudo-randomiser for this run, although the JREF might insist on a more sophisticated proper randomisation technique for the real one, I don't know.

From curiosity, where are you based? Are you in the US?

The Kilted Yaksman

15th September 2006, 08:35 PM

Work with me for Christ's sake! Sally dumped the seed, WE spread the fertilizer, and YOU popped up!
Sally dumped the weed? :eek:
Oh man, is that ever a party foul!

Maybe it's just me, and maybe it's just that the religious credophiles are starting to all sound the same, but Eternal_soul1981 reads a lot like (s)he could be a sock puppet for Sally, or at the least one of her friends here to try and help convert us godless heathens...

Sally, unless you convince Yahweh to speak to us in a booming voice from the sky, while while you tiptoe across the surface of Loch Ness all the while pouring endless quantities of a nice dry Shiraz out of a clear 20oz. bottle of spring water, I think your quest to prove that God works through you in any way is likely a forlorn hope. However, I will gladly consider the matter further if you can actually PROVE that you can do ANYTHING.

Beleth

16th September 2006, 02:22 AM

Hey Beleth, just to point out, a couple of us said that earlier in the thread; Saly seemed content with the fact that we would accept that omething had occurred contrary to our belief system, and would certainly listen to the successful claimant's views, but not accept them uncritically.
Yeah, but then she started proselytizing, and I just wanted to return to a point of sanity.

But I'm really curious - don't reply if it affects the outcome or gives anything away, but how can your personal test rule out, say, telepathy? Or invisible aliens recording your brainwaves?

Or is your test more of a 'deal', that if it gets fulfilled, you'll personally accept that God dunnit?
It doesn't rule telepathy or aliens (or hallucinations) out entirely, because after all nothing can rule them out entirely. It just makes the likelihood of all those other scenarios so small that IMO it would be, as some sage once said, more of a miracle for it to be accomplished by non-Jehovic means than by Jehovah.

Is it more of a deal? Hmmm. I suppose there is a deal-ish aspect to it. But there's a deal-ish aspect to all evidence, so I don't think that necessarily invalidates it.

William Smith

16th September 2006, 07:54 PM

p.s. define fear of religion?
I'm not "scared" of it in the least, I think it's ALL fake.

Plastictowel, I have reported one of your posts to the Mod Team - the one where you called Sally an "idiot".

I do not regard your attitude in this thread helpful. Quite the opposite. Please consider a different approach.

Plastictowel

16th September 2006, 09:12 PM

William Smith

16th September 2006, 09:46 PM

Uhm, thanks? So why did you quote a post containing my opinion and not the "idiot" portion?

I look forward to our now long lasting bickering you've started by making your disapproval of my post so public to all viewers.
Does tattle tale also sound too offensive to you?

Plastictowel, I think the quoted post shows the observative forum member quite a bit about you and your behaviour when facing opposition.

Also, I thought quite a long time about whether to explicitly repeat what you said. It seemed necessary to ensure clarity of my criticism.

Gr8wight gave you a hint, I also did before in this thread. Your definitve insult to Sally may be counted as "Strike Three" in terms of your misses in this thread.

I would consider it an honourable service to my personal development if you would treat me the same way as I did you, concerning respect to forum members. Please keep in mind that some forum members may have a "history" and since have developed a "special" way of communication. (E.g. CFLarsen and T'ai Chi; fowlsound and everyone else; Mercutio and Jas; etc.)

The Atheist

16th September 2006, 10:41 PM

Twenty four hours gone by - Sally on the plane yet?

Come on, Sal, make an effort, there are thousands of troops and civilians waiting for the cease-fire - GO GIRL! And just think how far those sponduliks will go at your next church-building campaign!

PreciousD

16th September 2006, 11:13 PM

I am not talking palour tricks people. Gods will is not to give lottery numbers find metal under a cup or read peoples mind. God is love and God is forgiveness.

Will he turn water into wine, allow you to walk on water, multiply loaves and fishes, or raise the dead. The last guy to make the sort of claims you're making suposedly performed these kinds of "tricks" for the very purpose of proving to people who he was. If you could pull off even one of these, I'm sure a lot of people would be convinced, or at least be willing to concider the possibility that your power comes from where you say it does.

PreciousD

16th September 2006, 11:20 PM

I know the Iraq war is part of God's plan. I have been told that this will forever punish all those that forsake him.

Clearly I'm coming into this thread a bit late so forgive me if anyone has already said something along these lines.

I really thing the war in Iraq has more to do with the political agenda of the current administratin than with the will of God.

I don't know what you know about islam, but I wouldn't charaterize them as "unbelievers" who have forsaken God. They believe in god, specificly in the same god of Abraham that Moses and Jesus followed, commonly known as Yahweh. They have a great regard for Jesus and even believe in the virgin birth.

PreciousD

16th September 2006, 11:35 PM

I find only believers feel the presence those that have not accepted God as there lord and savour feel nothing...

I thought God was going to use you to reveal himself to the skeptics and nonbelievers. Now you say that one has to already be a believer to sense the presence of God in you. So what good is that? How does that do anything for the nonbelievers.

I think you have an awfully inflated opinion of yourself, Sally. Maybe you should seek some help with that, you know umm....profesional help.

PreciousD

16th September 2006, 11:57 PM

Oh and being in high school, you realize about 95% of CATHOLIC students, have done at least 1 mortal sin. So regardless, they are all rotting in hell anyway.

Um, not if they go to confession. Judas priest, man! Didn't you pay attention at all during those years in school?

Plastictowel

17th September 2006, 07:33 AM

PreciousD

17th September 2006, 03:41 PM

Yes but I was also told that regardless of confession, mortal sin, again MORTAL sin, sent you straight to hell.
And 95% of the students, by senior year, had done a mortal sin, IE some kind of sexual interaction.

DIDNT YOU PAY ATTENTION!?

You are mistaken in this. Whover told you that was wrong. Confession takes care of mortal sins, not just venial sins. If you were to die without repenting of a mortal sin, then you might be in troubble, but if you've repented (even without the benfit of a formal confession) you'll be ok.

http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu06.htm

The Atheist

17th September 2006, 04:02 PM

<shouts>

SAAAAALLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyy.

48 hours gone and no reply.

Guess our Sal's either in-flight to Baghdad or she's trolled off elsewhere.

Plastictowel

17th September 2006, 07:19 PM

Wrong in what sense.
What interpretation would you be refering to, as we've come to see there are FAR too many interpretations of one lowsy fiction novel.

Sally

18th September 2006, 07:09 AM

<shouts>

SAAAAALLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyy.

48 hours gone and no reply.

Guess our Sal's either in-flight to Baghdad or she's trolled off elsewhere.

Or maybe Sally was having fun out of town over the weekend.

Glad its monday folks looking forward to meeting my group tonight.

Sally

18th September 2006, 07:17 AM

Yes but I was also told that regardless of confession, mortal sin, again MORTAL sin, sent you straight to hell.
And 95% of the students, by senior year, had done a mortal sin, IE some kind of sexual interaction.

DIDNT YOU PAY ATTENTION!?

I do not believe there is such thing as mortal sin and many religious folks feel the same as me.

Continue your sexual exploration you are okay in both mine and my God's eyes..

Sally

18th September 2006, 07:21 AM

I am not tracing over the Iraq thing again.

From interactions I had on personal levels with Soldiers I believe what is happening in Iraq is part of God's plan I hate suffering but feel that this suffering is need to advance humanity.

I know my simple test of if believers feel the warmth and light of God when I am near and not when I am far is a simple small step but it’s also a step that is easy and comfortable for me to do. I hope to prove successful with this and open the dialogue (and opportunities, in which the money and notoriety will be extremely helpful) to continue to show the world (including war torn nations) God's love.

Sally

18th September 2006, 10:01 AM

Tonight it looks like it will be a pretty informal test.

I hope to determine at what intensity does God's power shine within me.

I hope to do that by having the people rate the feelings of his presence with me within the room, outside the room, outside the building, down the block... The time for each test will be set at five minutes and people will be blindfolded and earplugged to block out sight and noise. The position I will be located in will be determined from draws out of a hat from an impartial observer (actually they are partial as a friend of mine but not part of the religious group but someone I trust to run an honest test).

I hope to have time to run through each location at least twice (randomally) to be able to get a decent result.

The results should tell me what type of intensity they feel His presence and where I am in relation to it...

From there I can provide a more rigid test to actual present to JREF. I also plan to get affidavits from this group to speed up the process. We have an elemantary school teacher, a couple bank tellers, some insurance office workers in the group I hope they fit the criteria as solid people to attest to the claim.

This test is just a quickie improtu thing I have no problem testing a more rigid structure after I determine that this is the path God is choosing for us..

eri

18th September 2006, 10:36 AM

Good luck Sally! Keep good notes so you can describe the outcome to us tomorrow.

Two things :

How do you intend to have the blindfolded members of the group determine the 'intensity' of their feelings? I would suggest a simple rating of 1-5, 1 being 'can't feel you at all' and 5 being 'right next to me', or something like that. Maybe 1-10 instead. Keep all the scorecards if you don't have any background in statistics, and we can help you determine whether or not there is a significant result.

Also, the JREF may not accept affidavits from the members of the group you are testing yourself on, for the reason that they are over-inclined to believe you, based on your common belief system. I'm not speaking for the JREF, but just warning you that they may require the affidavits from impartial (outside the church) observers of the test. But if your test is successful, you shouldn't have any trouble finding more observers.

Cuddles

18th September 2006, 10:37 AM

I hope to have time to run through each location at least twice (randomally) to be able to get a decent result.

If it is random you can't do each twice, or at least are very unlikely to. It would be best to keep it entirely random, otherwise the sitters will know that they should have two of each response, which could easily influence the result.

Edit : Also, well done. Most people refuse to even consider testing themselves.:)

Sally

18th September 2006, 10:46 AM

I plan to use a number scale 1-10

I first am going to get a baseline result. We will go into a session of deep prayer I will share my experiences and ask God to fill us with His light the group will ask for the same.

With my past experiences the feelings have been overwhelming I would like the group to continue to pray during the whole test and base there numeral ratings on that baseline result. 10 being no change 1 being the feeling of God has completely left my soul.

I would expect that if the level maintained 8-10 with me in the room and dropped 5 and below with me outside that would be a significant result to continue on building a method...

William Smith

18th September 2006, 10:47 AM

...
From interactions I had on personal levels with Soldiers I believe what is happening in Iraq is part of God's plan I hate suffering but feel that this suffering is need to advance humanity.
...

This may come across as a cheap shot, Sally, but try to explain this theory of advancing humanity to american war widows who do not have any religious beliefs. Or to their children, family, friends.

Your assessment of this part of human behaviour as "God's plan...to advance humanity" leaves me speechless.

I suggest you watch a rerun of "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart" from August 09 2006. Particularly, the segment with Aasif Mandvi, the Middle Eastern Affairs Correspondent.
Just found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5-4Kes8kws

I use humour as a means to deal with what I see happening around me. So does this show. If I didn't have this humour I'd go insane looking at the way you behave, Sally, with this particular assessment. No offense intended.

Looking forward to your report of the test tonight.

Sally

18th September 2006, 10:48 AM

If it is random you can't do each twice, or at least are very unlikely to. It would be best to keep it entirely random, otherwise the sitters will know that they should have two of each response, which could easily influence the result.

Edit : Also, well done. Most people refuse to even consider testing themselves.:)

Okay I was going to place all four options in a hat and have them drawn out by the obeserver. After all four are used I was going to replace them all and go through the set again.

Do you suggest picking an option and replacing the before each new location. How do I insure that I get all locations in the results?

Loss Leader

18th September 2006, 10:50 AM

Sally -

I am very glad you are running this test. It is extremely rare for people to even attempt to self-test. I hope that, no matter what the results, you will post them here.

P.S. I think your location should be completely random so that you might never be in the room with the sitters at all. That way, they don't know whether they ever should rate the feeling as "high." I'd hate for you to come back with random results in which you might read an effect that's not there: "God's light shines most brightly when I am just outside the door."

Sally

18th September 2006, 10:50 AM

This may come across as a cheap shot, Sally, but try to explain this theory of advancing humanity to american war widows who do not have any religious beliefs. Or to their children, family, friends.

Your assessment of this part of human behaviour as "God's plan...to advance humanity" leaves me speechless.

I have done as you ask and that is why I do feel at peace with it. From talking to soliders and there families I have seen God's power within provide the peace needed to continue the mission or comfort those that loss.
This is why I feel I need to share His gift at a much higher level. The suffering in the world today is intense but with God's love we can come out of the otherside as stronger people.

Edit:

And I perfer the Colbert report to the Daily show I think the satire provided by Stephen is unmatched...

Edit 2

and I apologize I did not fully read your first part. I actually have no idea of the beliefs of many of the soliders or the families I have spoken with. I know some are very religious from the paths our talks took but others we did not speak of God at all, I simply saw his power work...

eri

18th September 2006, 10:52 AM

Sally

18th September 2006, 10:57 AM

If you do 10 trials, you have a good chance of going through all four locations at least once - if you get to 9 and still haven't done one, do that one as the 10th.

Do you need/plan to meditate in each location? If so, establish a time limit in each location beforehand, with ample time to move to another location. And make sure your helper in the room has the same schedule.

I plan five minutes for each test.

I will keep time along with the observer.

I will do my best to keep my self in a state of constant prayer and will advise the group to do the same. I feel the more we ask for God's guidance the strong er the results will be...

Edit:

I also do not plan to tell anyone except the observer what the locations are. I want them to just being focused on feeling God's presence no matter where I may be I hope with that I can get a clear direction from God...

Nucular

18th September 2006, 11:03 AM

Best of luck Sally, it'll be very interesting to hear the results of this test - I'd like to echo the others in clapping you, most people twist and turn and wriggle and eventually don't even do the self-test. So kudos :)

Plastictowel

18th September 2006, 11:10 AM

Oooo test results will be showng tuesday morning I hope???

Sally

18th September 2006, 11:16 AM

Oooo test results will be showng tuesday morning I hope???

I will post tomorrow morning yes.

William Smith

18th September 2006, 11:47 AM

I have done as you ask and that is why I do feel at peace with it. From talking to soliders and there families I have seen God's power within provide the peace needed to continue the mission or comfort those that loss.
This is why I feel I need to share His gift at a much higher level. The suffering in the world today is intense but with God's love we can come out of the otherside as stronger people.

Edit:

And I perfer the Colbert report to the Daily show I think the satire provided by Stephen is unmatched...

Edit 2

and I apologize I did not fully read your first part. I actually have no idea of the beliefs of many of the soliders or the families I have spoken with. I know some are very religious from the paths our talks took but others we did not speak of God at all, I simply saw his power work...

This post should of course receive a "Wag of the Finger". :)

However, your moving forward to your test is a "Tip of the Hat".

IXP

18th September 2006, 12:40 PM

Sally,

I think you have made a good and honest attempt to come up with a fair test, and I congratulate you for that. But please remember that this test is far from the kind of control that would be used on a JREF approved test.

I would not be surprised at all if this test shows a somewhat positive result, particulary for the trials that have you in the room, because I think there is too much chance of sensory leakage. For the ones outside, I think it is less likely you will see a result.

Do you plan to do an open test first? This would be done by having the group rate their feelings when they know where your are. If the results of these ratings do not show the expected results (i.e. dropping off as you are farther away) then the utility of the test is greatly diminished.

IXP

Sally

18th September 2006, 01:29 PM

I do plan to get a base result in the open first..to do a little test of us holding hands in deep prayer as we usually do than test with me outside the group to see if the results are affected with that breaking of the bonds...

I also know this is just a quick what type of results would we get thing. I hope to get somewhat useable data to construct a more rigid test. I.E if I find that the power of God is strong unless I am fully down the block I will have to proceed in a more formal test placing me at some distance. If it simple diminishes when I leave the room I will pursue methods that simple place me outside the room..

The Atheist

18th September 2006, 01:33 PM

I am not talking palour tricks people. Gods will is not to give lottery numbers find metal under a cup or read peoples mind. God is love and God is forgiveness.

I am asking the deepest and most outright skeptics to tell me what would prove that God is in all of our lives not that I can do a cool trick and claim God did it. I am smarter than that and it will not bring in the critical thinkers as believers.

Edit:
Here is one of the lines I was thinking on. Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity...

(Bolding mine)

What???? Now this is in the "too hard" basket?

If Iraq's too hard, I'll accept Sudan or Nigeria!

YOU made the call, YOU put up, girl. None of this BS "I'll get god's presence in me....." THAT does sound like a parlour trick, whereas getting Muslim rebels to lay their weapons down, that's DIVINE.

72 hours gone.

YOU asked for someone to accept the challenge, HERE I AM! $1M Kiwi, all for your church, no need for pre-testing, go for it!

No? Surprise, surprise........

Sally

18th September 2006, 02:02 PM

(Bolding mine)

What???? Now this is in the "too hard" basket?

If Iraq's too hard, I'll accept Sudan or Nigeria!

YOU made the call, YOU put up, girl. None of this BS "I'll get god's presence in me....." THAT does sound like a parlour trick, whereas getting Muslim rebels to lay their weapons down, that's DIVINE.

72 hours gone.

YOU asked for someone to accept the challenge, HERE I AM! $1M Kiwi, all for your church, no need for pre-testing, go for it!

No? Surprise, surprise........

I NEVER said Iraq is too hard. I said Iraq is part of God's plan.

I am working towards what you are asking but I need God's guidance to direct me.

I do not have the funds or resources or the fellowship to undertake this type of endevour at this time. I do have earthly goals with this challenge and it is to increase my personal noterity and resources to be able to take my message globally. I feel its only after securing those resources while God reveal his next step in His plan for me. If I am wrong I will accept my fate but I have witnessed his power resolve conflicts through me on smaller scales I know He has the power to resolve the larger issues.

Also I am not affliated with any church and do not wish to build any sort of hierarchy system that has proved corrupt again and again. If I win the challenge it will be my own personal gain and I will do my best to use it to further God's message..

The Atheist

18th September 2006, 02:05 PM

I do not have the funds or resources or the fellowship to undertake this type of endevour at this time. I do have earthly goals with this challenge and it is to increase my personal noterity and resources to be able to take my message globally. I feel its only after securing those resources while God reveal his next step in His plan for me.

Even better, then.

Borrow the money, earn a million and stop fighting all at the same time. You'll have no trouble repaying the money, so go for it.

It was, after all, YOUR suggestion...........

Sally

18th September 2006, 02:07 PM

Even better, then.

Borrow the money, earn a million and stop fighting all at the same time. You'll have no trouble repaying the money, so go for it.

It was, after all, YOUR suggestion...........

If the path is meant to be God will provide the resources. It may be from borrowing as of yet He has not provided that path.

It is my suggestion and my goal so far I am working the best path this mortal knows...

The Atheist

18th September 2006, 02:22 PM

If the path is meant to be God will provide the resources
Then why suggest it? Are you backing down now?

You asked for someone to accept your challenge and I have accepted.

Now you are withdrawing, is that correct?

If so, please state as follows:

"I am a troll and actually have no power given to me by god, so I am withdrawing from the challenge."

Cheers

Sally

18th September 2006, 02:31 PM

Then why suggest it? Are you backing down now?

You asked for someone to accept your challenge and I have accepted.

Now you are withdrawing, is that correct?

If so, please state as follows:

"I am a troll and actually have no power given to me by god, so I am withdrawing from the challenge."

Cheers

Please stop reading what you choose. I posted asking in help to formulate a challenge and tossed out ideas I had.

I never layed down a challenge or such. We have since proceeded to some peliminary test which I will do. My goal is that this path will quickly develop into your type of challenge. That is MY PERSONAL goal.

i will do my best as a human to achieve it but will not longer waste time arguing with you over skemantics...

petre

18th September 2006, 02:58 PM

Don't be too discouraged if the skeptics here doubt any positive result you might get (or overzealously accept a negative one), it's just the skeptical nature.

Good luck, as always.

The Atheist

18th September 2006, 03:03 PM

I never layed down a challenge or such. We have since proceeded to some peliminary test which I will do. My goal is that this path will quickly develop into your type of challenge. That is MY PERSONAL goal.

Oh really?

What is THIS then?

I am not talking palour tricks people. Gods will is not to give lottery numbers find metal under a cup or read peoples mind. God is love and God is forgiveness.

I am asking the deepest and most outright skeptics to tell me what would prove that God is in all of our lives not that I can do a cool trick and claim God did it. I am smarter than that and it will not bring in the critical thinkers as believers.

Edit:
Here is one of the lines I was thinking on. Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity...

Looks like YOUR idea to me. Or, were you simply lying through your teeth?

YOU proposed, I accepted. What part of that is too difficult to cope with? Why the need for "preliminary" test? Not so sure in your god and want to test your theories at home where you can quietly crawl back under your rock when it doesn't work?

YOU asked for the most outright and deeply sceptical person to talk to, well you've found him!

YOU came in, full of righteous and divine BS, put up or shut up! Or, are you just another pathetic troll?

(Isn't it funny, how one so young can be in touch with the mysteries of the universe yet not be able to write to the standard that my 7 year old daughter can.)

Pup

18th September 2006, 04:18 PM

Why does it have to be in the third world? There are people who need nourishment and peace and happiness on the streets of most any USA inner city at 2 a.m.

Stopping a gang war, or removing the suffering of the junkies in a crack house, probably wouldn't qualify for the million dollars, since it's too hard to quantify, but I take it you're not just interested in spreading peace and happiness to win money.

Loss Leader

18th September 2006, 06:17 PM

The Atheist

18th September 2006, 08:34 PM

Sally hasn't posted since 4:30, but seeing as she is willing to conduct a self-test, I wish we'd sent her off on a more positive note. I really don't see what more you can ask of someone than to honestly and fairly assess themselves and their beliefs. I'm not sure what arguing with her about Iraq and gang wars will accomplish that allowing her to explore her own beliefs will not.

If she just kept restating her premise without offering proof, it might be a different story.
Goodness me, let's humour the poor, misguided girl.

I repeat, SHE said getting soldiers to lay down their weapons would be a good example and I offered to take her up on it. Did JREF? NO.

I've offered to take up the challenge from the money end, if she can't (which of course, she can't) take up the challenge, then the discussion's over isn't it? Or, do all challengers get to change their challenge as they see fit?

The point here, to me, is quite simple. She came in with a challenge which no way no how would JREF have accepted - Sally creating a cease-fire. I took it up, which she didn't expect so she now wants to try something at home first. Yeah, right.

PreciousD

18th September 2006, 08:45 PM

Wrong in what sense.
What interpretation would you be refering to, as we've come to see there are FAR too many interpretations of one lowsy fiction novel.

Was this addressed to me? If so, you are wrong in the sense of your understanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding the nature of mortal sins and confession. You were talking about what you learned in Catholic shool, right? Well, if you think commiting a mortal sin sends you straight to hell with no chance of forgiveness, then you have misunderstood or been misinformed somewhere along the way.

Now whether Church doctine has any bearing on objective reality is another matter. I just wanted to make it clear that the Church does not teach that mortal sin = damnation. It wouldn't make much sense to teach that anyway. If you're screwed no matter what you do then the church can't help you and there would be no reason to go.

PreciousD

18th September 2006, 09:01 PM

From interactions I had on personal levels with Soldiers I believe what is happening in Iraq is part of God's plan I hate suffering but feel that this suffering is need to advance humanity.

YOU BELIEVE!!!????? Don't you know? Hasn't God told you?

One of these God discussions on another board turned into a very long and drawn out discussion of free will. I don't want to go through all that again, but I would like to know, Sally. Do you think George W. Bush chose to start a war in Iraq or do you think God made George do it as part of his plan? Or did God just strongly suggest to George that he start a war? 'Cause I'd like to know who to be pissed at for the whole thing. And the next time there's a rally to protest the war I want to know if we should be marching in front of government buildings or in front of a church.

William Smith

18th September 2006, 10:55 PM

Sally hasn't posted since 4:30, but seeing as she is willing to conduct a self-test, I wish we'd sent her off on a more positive note. I really don't see what more you can ask of someone than to honestly and fairly assess themselves and their beliefs. I'm not sure what arguing with her about Iraq and gang wars will accomplish that allowing her to explore her own beliefs will not.

If she just kept restating her premise without offering proof, it might be a different story.

I do not fully agree with you, Loss Leader.

In my eyes, The Atheist has taken a very straightforward - and sometimes unnecessarily blunt - approach, but he simply took her up on what she said. Plain and simple.
Allow me to restate the last paragraph of Sally's post #18 again for better understanding:
"Here is one of the lines I was thinking on. Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity..."

When you post this in an open forum teeming with skeptics, well, you do count on some reaction, right?

Most of the posters in this thread so far did behave quite productively, hence the support for Sally's test.

saizai

18th September 2006, 11:52 PM

Sally - I haven't read the full thread, so my apologies if this is a repetition.

1. I hope you intend to randomize distance. The simplest way would be to have alternating 5-minute periods; roll a die before the period, it determines where you are then, you have 5 minutes to get there. During the next 5 minutes the receivers make their judgements. Then another 5 minute break while you move and so on. Repeat a dozen times (2 hours) and you should be good. Positive results = inverse correlation of 'feeling of light' to your distance.

For open test, the first set should be in a known order (eg closest to farthest, twice) but with the same timing etc.

2. (How) do you intend to control for heat perception? Humans emit body heat, and we have heat receptors in our skin which can be quite sensitive to fluctuations. This could explain an ability to detect your presence in the room vs not.

saizai

18th September 2006, 11:57 PM

YOU proposed, I accepted. What part of that is too difficult to cope with? Why the need for "preliminary" test? Not so sure in your god and want to test your theories at home where you can quietly crawl back under your rock when it doesn't work?

In fairness, she framed it as a tentative suggestion ("Here is one of the lines I was thinking on...") rather than a formal proposal. Presumably tentative not because it was contingent on your acceptance but rather for other reasons of her own not yet worked out.

You don't get to fry her for changing her mind about something she hadn't committed to, especially when she is continuing with an alternate (though still tentative) proposal.

Sally

19th September 2006, 06:27 AM

Oh really?

What is THIS then?

Looks like YOUR idea to me. Or, were you simply lying through your teeth?

YOU proposed, I accepted. What part of that is too difficult to cope with? Why the need for "preliminary" test? Not so sure in your god and want to test your theories at home where you can quietly crawl back under your rock when it doesn't work?

YOU asked for the most outright and deeply sceptical person to talk to, well you've found him!

YOU came in, full of righteous and divine BS, put up or shut up! Or, are you just another pathetic troll?

(Isn't it funny, how one so young can be in touch with the mysteries of the universe yet not be able to write to the standard that my 7 year old daughter can.)

The personal attack at the bottom aside.

I did not lay down a challenge if you read (and since your 7 year old is such a grammar queen maybe you should get her to read to you) I was proposing an idea in my head and requesting guidance. I never CHALLENGED anyone. This is still a goal of mine and something I have not given up yet.

Have you acheived every goal you have set out for your life? Have you had someone call you names because you did not immediately go for that goal? I am doing the best I can as a human I will be ignoring you from now on because you seem to want to yell and criticise instead of being constructive and helpful.

There are those on here that choose the to be helpful I will continue to rely on them.

Sally

19th September 2006, 06:35 AM

YOU BELIEVE!!!????? Don't you know? Hasn't God told you?

One of these God discussions on another board turned into a very long and drawn out discussion of free will. I don't want to go through all that again, but I would like to know, Sally. Do you think George W. Bush chose to start a war in Iraq or do you think God made George do it as part of his plan? Or did God just strongly suggest to George that he start a war? 'Cause I'd like to know who to be pissed at for the whole thing. And the next time there's a rally to protest the war I want to know if we should be marching in front of government buildings or in front of a church.

George W. Bush has the personality of a recovering addict. I have worked with recoverers in some of my short time and they share many of the same traits. Couple that with a small God complex of W's own and the man is dangerous. I believe he started the war out of pure personal gain and to make daddy happy but that is strictly my belief.

I never claimed to know all God's reasonings or methods. I simple speak on interactions I had at personal levels feeling the overwhelming sense of purpose as I talked with soliders being deployed. The feeling of strength given to them through me and the calmness taking over the situation has had a profound effect on me. I am fully against W and his misguided behaviour and lying us to war but at the same time feel from the strenght God has given me that it is part of his will.

These feelings are a hard thing to describe on a typing level. So please if you question or want further insight please dont personally attack me just ask and I will do the best to answer. If I am attacked like The Atheist seems adapt at doing I will shut down from further conversation.

Plastictowel

19th September 2006, 06:37 AM

Hey!!!
IF YOU'RE HERE TODAY TELL US THE RESULTS, QUIT RETORTING.

Plastictowel

19th September 2006, 06:39 AM

If I am attacked like The Atheist seems adapt at doing I will shut down from further conversation.

He isn't attacking at all.
But, everyone keep attacking, clearly her experiment last night didn't go well! Get her out of here!!!!!

Sally

19th September 2006, 06:46 AM

Okay and finally to the results.

10 of us (including myself) met tonight all familiar faces and that have felt the intense warmth and light of God through me before. We opened the evening like every other night with a group prayer during which I asked guidance from God to successful show His light to the world. We prayed to have him fill me with His love, His light, His strength. During this time we felt the presence of His love but simply on the level that normal prayer brings us.

We broke down into discussion mainly focused on what I was hoping to accomplish what is needed and turned to God again to show us the path. The feelings of His presence were with us once again but nothing extraordinary or intense as has been felt in the past. I did a quick open experiment in which I left the room during the prayers and no change was felt by any.

At this time we decided continuing with blindfolds and earplugs was unnecessary as this is obviously not the path God has given us to take. We decided to retire early to the bar and the only thing I have to show this morning as a result is a hangover...

I have felt His power and others have felt in through me. I know God is guiding me but yet has to reveal His master plan for me. Many assumed I am simply seeking the money and have no care of the greater good. That is a false statement.

I work with the homeless, the addicted; I make frequent visits to the base and put on events for our soldiers. I believe that His power does shine the strongest at times of suffering I think that is the methods I need to pursue...

Sally

19th September 2006, 06:47 AM

He isn't attacking at all.
But, everyone keep attacking, clearly her experiment last night didn't go well! Get her out of here!!!!!

See results above Mr. Towel

I am sorry of your issues with both your parents and the Catholic church but neither have a thing to do with me.

I fully intended to keep exploring and keep testing.

jstro

19th September 2006, 06:52 AM

He isn't attacking at all.
But, everyone keep attacking, clearly her experiment last night didn't go well! Get her out of here!!!!!

I find Sally pleasant enough when she's not reacting to vitriol and when she's not doing the god-speak. She's gotten better at the latter, except when she's pulled back into it by the former. So few challenges ever get to preliminary testing that it would sure be nice if Sally could get that far, or just attempt to submit an app and put together a protocol, without being discouraged from trying. Certainly no one is going to change her mind about her beliefs by bickering with her on a messageboard, but there's a chance she might come away with something learned by putting her beliefs to the test. Just a chance.

I for one would love to hear how Sally's test went last night.

jstro

19th September 2006, 06:55 AM

The feelings of His presence were with us once again but nothing extraordinary or intense as has been felt in the past. I did a quick open experiment in which I left the room during the prayers and no change was felt by any.

So based on this, are you retracting your proposal for testing? Seems like your testing last night didn't demonstrate the power you had been talking about. Or will you try again?

Sally

19th September 2006, 06:58 AM

So based on this, are you retracting your proposal for testing? Seems like your testing last night didn't demonstrate the power you had been talking about. Or will you try again?

The open test did not give results that would have been measurable. A double blinded test would be disastrous so as far as testing as described earlier that is being retracted I do wish to explore other options and am currently trying to think things out.

IXP

19th September 2006, 07:22 AM

Sally,

Thank you for reporting the results honestly. I must admit that I am a little surprised, because in open tests, most applicants are certain that the effect is there. Perhaps you have taken the first step toward an unbiased examination of your beliefs.

IXP

Loss Leader

19th September 2006, 07:55 AM

The open test did not give results that would have been measurable. A double blinded test would be disastrous so as far as testing as described earlier that is being retracted I do wish to explore other options and am currently trying to think things out.

Sally, I would like to sincerely thank you for examining your preconceptions, reporting honestly and modifying your claims accordingly. This is an extremely rare degree of insight and is in short supply among JREF claimants and, for that matter, people in general.

I hope that you will consider that - while there may be something special about the power of God - there is nothing special about your ability to channel such. You are an instrument of the Lord no more or less than anyone else who truely opens her heart. As such, humility should prevent you from asking God to shine through you and instead should compel you to ask God to do his will however he wishes it done.

Thank you for withdrawing your claim and good luck on your Christian walk.

steenkh

19th September 2006, 07:58 AM

We broke down into discussion mainly focused on what I was hoping to accomplish what is needed and turned to God again to show us the path. The feelings of His presence were with us once again but nothing extraordinary or intense as has been felt in the past. I did a quick open experiment in which I left the room during the prayers and no change was felt by any.
I do not believe God or other superstitions, but I believe in testing all avenues, so I want to ask you this: What makes you think that you are the only one in the group that makes the group feel His presence? You are obviously a group of people who all believe strongly, and if God exists and wants to make His presence felt through certain persons, it seems obvious to me that he could work through all of you at the same time, and not through any single person.

Would it not be more interesting if you tried this out with people who have never believed in God and have never felt His presence? If you can regularly convince atheists of Gods presence merely by praying in the same room or holding hands, I would think that your ideas had some merit!

Nucular

19th September 2006, 08:07 AM

eri

19th September 2006, 08:36 AM

Good for you, Sally. So few applicants ever bother testing themselves first. If the feeling is something that can come and go like that, you must consider maybe it's not the best thing to test. Let us know if you come up with some other manifestation of your God that we might be able to test.

Crowbot

19th September 2006, 08:44 AM

Congrats on testing yourself Sally - you've earned a lot of respect here from being honest. Good luck in your future endeavors of proving god exists.

Sally

19th September 2006, 09:00 AM

Hi Sally,
Again, like others here, I'm impressed that you actually put your claim to the test and reported negative results!

Thanks for including us in that, and for behaving rationally enough to see that if you get negative results now, it's probably not worth applying for the JREF Challenge with the current protocol.

However, I hope you also read Steen's post above - could it be that adjusting a few parameters might bring better results, whilst retaining the double blind, randomised nature of the test?

I gather you're concluding from the failure of the test that this isn't the way God wants you to go... does this mean a complete rethink, or another go with a slightly different approach?

I think I stated before that I have seen His powers work through times of stress. (That and shared experiences with the group) I really want to pursue the stress route.

I have calmed soliders leaving for war, caused addicts to stop shaking, disrupted bar brawls and once thwarted a mugging all through touch and silent prayer.

It kind of goes back to my orginally assumption that God does not manifest himself through simple tricks that he does assert Himself during times of stress. I think this is his path for me and I still believe it is part of his plan to bring Himself through me to the non-believers in the scientific community I have had non believers comment on the warmth felt before I know if the proper method is found I can recreate it.

Sally

Sally

19th September 2006, 09:02 AM

I do not believe God or other superstitions, but I believe in testing all avenues, so I want to ask you this: What makes you think that you are the only one in the group that makes the group feel His presence? You are obviously a group of people who all believe strongly, and if God exists and wants to make His presence felt through certain persons, it seems obvious to me that he could work through all of you at the same time, and not through any single person.

Would it not be more interesting if you tried this out with people who have never believed in God and have never felt His presence? If you can regularly convince atheists of Gods presence merely by praying in the same room or holding hands, I would think that your ideas had some merit!

I tried to make that a bit clear. The whole group has felt God touch there lives both in group and personally. We always feel God is with us I have had experiences with each member (some on individual bases others in group) in which the feelings the have felt before have intensified to levels unmatched before. I am not sure why God has choosen me but I am almost sure that the near death experience is part of linking myself closer to Him. He kept me on the earth to fufill a goal I am simply working to do that.

Crowbot

19th September 2006, 09:25 AM

I have calmed soliders leaving for war, caused addicts to stop shaking, disrupted bar brawls and once thwarted a mugging all through touch and silent prayer.

So have policemen, counselors, and rehabilitation nurses. Except they do the exact same thing through normal psychological/physiological means WITHOUT giving credit to an imaginary friend.

Cuddles

19th September 2006, 09:27 AM

I think I stated before that I have seen His powers work through times of stress. (That and shared experiences with the group) I really want to pursue the stress route.

I have calmed soliders leaving for war, caused addicts to stop shaking, disrupted bar brawls and once thwarted a mugging all through touch and silent prayer.

The JREF does not do any tests where anyone could be harmed. I'm not sure how much stress you need, but anything that would involve bar brawls or muggings would be rejected. I don't know what their thoughts are on mental harm, but I would think anything serious enough to put someone under genunine, serious stress is unlikely to be considered harmless.

Sally

19th September 2006, 09:38 AM

So have policemen, counselors, and rehabilitation nurses. Except they do the exact same thing through normal psychological/physiological means WITHOUT giving credit to an imaginary friend.

True but I have had no formal training while those others have.

Those I have talked to have said they felt the same warmth and peacefulness that my prayer group has felt when speaking to God and reliving my experiences which His light has shown...

Nucular

19th September 2006, 09:44 AM

True but I have had no formal training while those others have.

Those I have talked to have said they felt the same warmth and peacefulness that my prayer group has felt when speaking to God and reliving my experiences which His light has shown...

Well... I've seen people in a mental health setting with no training at all defuse some pretty hairy situations; this in itself is not the sort of thing that might convince sceptics or win the JREF prize.

Cuddles' post also makes a good point re: placing one's self or others in jeopardy - unlikely to be accepted.

Hmmm, you seem so genuine and willing to test stuff out, it'd be a shame if we couldn't come up with a decent test!

But "thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God"..... are you sure He's gonna play?

Sally

19th September 2006, 10:09 AM

Well... I've seen people in a mental health setting with no training at all defuse some pretty hairy situations; this in itself is not the sort of thing that might convince sceptics or win the JREF prize.

Cuddles' post also makes a good point re: placing one's self or others in jeopardy - unlikely to be accepted.

Hmmm, you seem so genuine and willing to test stuff out, it'd be a shame if we couldn't come up with a decent test!

But "thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God"..... are you sure He's gonna play?

Just to clarify.

I often do not reveal that it is God's power working in my when faced with those conflicts. I actually outside of my group (and here) keep the God speak to a minimum for I know what a turn off it is.

What fascinates me is that those that have felt the warmth, the peace, the resolve from my touch and words during times of conflict without speaking of God have expressed feeling the exact same things my prayer group has spoken of. how can that not be God's work in both cases?

I do not want to create a situation of artificial stress or put anyone in harms way but yet want to show how God's love works to dissolve those feelings I am currently racking my brain to find a way to have this properly tested. I know from seeking God's guidance that He truly does want me to pursue this goal of showing his power to the scientific community...

timokay

19th September 2006, 10:26 AM

Nucular

19th September 2006, 10:32 AM

What fascinates me is that those that have felt the warmth, the peace, the resolve from my touch and words during times of conflict without speaking of God have expressed feeling the exact same things my prayer group has spoken of. how can that not be God's work in both cases?

Well I completely get that your own interpretation is that it has to be down to God; however, sceptics here, even the theistic ones, will likely disagree with your interpretation. There are many reasons the phenomena you describe could seem to happen, ranging from humouring you or responding to your personal warmth, to (forgive me) your own delusion.

You clearly understand the importance of testing, and are willing to do so honestly - obviously, a test which actually shows something out of the ordinary must rule out all other explanations, such as those I mentioned.

So at present, if we rule out the proposed "TBs detect your presence in a room" test, am I right in thinking the only other one we can think of at the moment involves non-believers under extreme stress? Or are there any other ways we could observe something 'odd' happening?

Remember, we here on this board are interested in anything which cannot be explained through mundane means - you don't have to actually prove God's hand in it for us to sit up and listen, and indeed I'm pretty sure that with one test that'd be impossible anyway.

Sally

19th September 2006, 10:33 AM

Sally, would it be fair to say that there is no demonstration that could convince you that your divine experiences have been the result of your own feelings, and not due to the presence of God?

I only know it is God's presence from speaking to others about it. I have felt it but others have felt it also numerous others. How would it be my feelings if others described it to me independent from me describing my feelings?

Sally

19th September 2006, 10:39 AM

Well I completely get that your own interpretation is that it has to be down to God; however, sceptics here, even the theistic ones, will likely disagree with your interpretation. There are many reasons the phenomena you describe could seem to happen, ranging from humouring you or responding to your personal warmth, to (forgive me) your own delusion.

You clearly understand the importance of testing, and are willing to do so honestly - obviously, a test which actually shows something out of the ordinary must rule out all other explanations, such as those I mentioned.

So at present, if we rule out the proposed "TBs detect your presence in a room" test, am I right in thinking the only other one we can think of at the moment involves non-believers under extreme stress? Or are there any other ways we could observe something 'odd' happening?

Remember, we here on this board are interested in anything which cannot be explained through mundane means - you don't have to actually prove God's hand in it for us to sit up and listen, and indeed I'm pretty sure that with one test that'd be impossible anyway.

Okay first if I am delusional I shutter to think how far gone I may be :).

I am pretty sure I am your average functioning 27 year old female. Works a job, pays rent on time, dates (not all God lovers either :) ) , and has a social life outside of my prayer group.

So I hope I HOPE I can rule that possibility out and further explore why I have had this shared experience with so many. Why is it that religious folks can clearly describe this feeling with others it more incomprehensible? I would bet my life is because those that have been touched by God know what His touch feels like...

I am currently at a loss to think of other ways to show God's light within me. I will think of past experiences and try to find other methods...

timokay

19th September 2006, 10:48 AM

I only know it is God's presence from speaking to others about it. I have felt it but others have felt it also numerous others. How would it be my feelings if others described it to me independent from me describing my feelings?

And I would like to think you are sincere in that. What I am asking is, do you think that you could be convinced that it is not the presence of God.
That you may just be a wonderful person, who affects others with your positive nature. And that what you attribute to God may just be your own vitality?

Could you ever accept that, if you were unable to demonstrate the "divine?"

So I hope I HOPE I can rule that possibility out and further explore why I have had this shared experience with so many. Why is it that religious folks can clearly describe this feeling with others it more incomprehensible? I would bet my life is because those that have been touched by God know what His touch feels like...

Is it possible that the "religious people" describe this feeling because they share faith with you and know you? And that the others do not know you? I can't imgaine that you walk up to strangers and ask them if they feel the presence of God in you, so I wonder how you have made this determination.

Loss Leader

19th September 2006, 10:52 AM

Why is it that religious folks can clearly describe this feeling with others it more incomprehensible? I would bet my life is because those that have been touched by God know what His touch feels like...

Sally, this has nothing to do with any JREF challenge, but I would be interested in your answer. Do you believe that the feeling you have of being touched by God is a different experience than a Jewish, Muslim or even anamist individual has when she claims to be touched by God? Could a Hindu woman who knows nothing of Christ or the Old or New Testament give the same kind of comfort to a Hindu man going off to war as you do with our soldiers?

Sally

19th September 2006, 11:02 AM

And I would like to think you are sincere in that. What I am asking is, do you think that you could be convinced that it is not the presence of God.
That you may just be a wonderful person, who affects others with your positive nature. And that what you attribute to God may just be your own vitality?

Could you ever accept that, if you were unable to demonstrate the "divine?"

Is it possible that the "religious people" describe this feeling because they share faith with you and know you? And that the others do not know you? I can't imgaine that you walk up to strangers and ask them if they feel the presence of God in you, so I wonder how you have made this determination.

The describe the exact same feelings as those that labeled it as divine.

So you take two seperate people one who knows God's love and understands the warmth and explains the feeling as His power. A second who does not know of God's love but explains a warmth a feeling of peace and purpose is it not obvious to say this is God's power they are feeling?

Sally

19th September 2006, 11:05 AM

Sally, this has nothing to do with any JREF challenge, but I would be interested in your answer. Do you believe that the feeling you have of being touched by God is a different experience than a Jewish, Muslim or even anamist individual has when she claims to be touched by God? Could a Hindu woman who knows nothing of Christ or the Old or New Testament give the same kind of comfort to a Hindu man going off to war as you do with our soldiers?

I can only speak of personal experiences.

God has worked through me has used me as a tool to comfort fearful soliders on there way to fight in what is basically a holy war in Iraq. God provided comfort through me to those soliders I can not speak of what Allah provides to his messangers of war but God does speak strongly against those that forsake Him. Is it not rational to say that the damnation that is the Middle East can be shown as proof of God's wrath?

Loss Leader

19th September 2006, 11:15 AM

So you take two seperate people one who knows God's love and understands the warmth and explains the feeling as His power. A second who does not know of God's love but explains a warmth a feeling of peace and purpose is it not obvious to say this is God's power they are feeling?

No. I'm sorry but it is not obvious at all. You have two people who experience the same feelings - one claims that the feeling is God's power and the other claims that the feeling is the Flying Spaghetti Monster's power. Why is one claim "obvious" and the other not?

I think the far more obvious explanation is that empathy, optimism and understanding from another person makes people feel better. People just respond well to positive and caring individuals. Especially if said individual is a 27 year-old girl who admits that she enjoys dating.

Sally

19th September 2006, 11:20 AM

No. I'm sorry but it is not obvious at all. You have two people who experience the same feelings - one claims that the feeling is God's power and the other claims that the feeling is the Flying Spaghetti Monster's power. Why is one claim "obvious" and the other not?

I think the far more obvious explanation is that empathy, optimism and understanding from another person makes people feel better. People just respond well to positive and caring individuals. Especially if said individual is a 27 year-old girl who admits that she enjoys dating.

But the other is claiming to not know the feeling at all. Plus I have numerous people that can attest to it being God. So you have multitudes of people claiming this is God's power and a handful that say its something unexplained. How can so many label it yet a few choose to leave it unlabeled..

And arent the Godful allowed to enjoy ourselves :) we can not let the Godless have all the fun can we... ;)

Loss Leader

19th September 2006, 11:21 AM

I can only speak of personal experiences.

God has worked through me has used me as a tool to comfort fearful soliders on there way to fight in what is basically a holy war in Iraq. God provided comfort through me to those soliders I can not speak of what Allah provides to his messangers of war but God does speak strongly against those that forsake Him.

You really haven't answered my question. I'm not asking a thing about the current conflict in the Middle East. I'm asking if you think one Hindu could give the kind of hope and peace to another Hindu that you claim to give to other Christians. It has nothing to do with any war ever fought in any part of the world.

Do you believe that Christian is better able to comfort Christians than a Jew is to comfort Jews, or a Shintoist is to comfort other Japanese people?

Is it not rational to say that the damnation that is the Middle East can be shown as proof of God's wrath?

No, this is not rational at all. Is it rational to say the Holocaust was proof of God's wrath against the Jews? Is it rational to say that bears are proof of God's wrath against salmon?

Loss Leader

19th September 2006, 11:25 AM

So you have multitudes of people claiming this is God's power and a handful that say its something unexplained. How can so many label it yet a few choose to leave it unlabeled.

By this logic, the world is flat. The fact that many people believe something adds nothing to the question of whether it is true.

For that matter, while there are a whole heck of a lot of christians in the world, they are by no means the majority. Since greater than 3 of every 4 people in the world do not believe Jesus was the messiah, it must not be true.

Sally

19th September 2006, 11:28 AM

You really haven't answered my question. I'm not asking a thing about the current conflict in the Middle East. I'm asking if you think one Hindu could give the kind of hope and peace to another Hindu that you claim to give to other Christians. It has nothing to do with any war ever fought in any part of the world.

Do you believe that Christian is better able to comfort Christians than a Jew is to comfort Jews, or a Shintoist is to comfort other Japanese people?

No, this is not rational at all. Is it rational to say the Holocaust was proof of God's wrath against the Jews? Is it rational to say that bears are proof of God's wrath against salmon?

Of course the holocaust was not God's wrath against the Jews.

And lets not do the Bear salmon thing first I know bears are threat number uno plus I actually do believe in natural selection so the salmon bear thing is easily explained through science and population controls.

People do bring comfort to others I will not deny that if they are Muslim, Hindu or Jew...I said I can only talk of personal experience because I do not know of the personal relationship others have with their Gods. I react from guidance He gives me and what I see in our modern world...

Sally

19th September 2006, 11:29 AM

By this logic, the world is flat. The fact that many people believe something adds nothing to the question of whether it is true.

For that matter, while there are a whole heck of a lot of christians in the world, they are by no means the majority. Since greater than 3 of every 4 people in the world do not believe Jesus was the messiah, it must not be true.

I have seen no proof of Jesus being anything other than a mortal prophet. That is why I only speak of God.

timokay

19th September 2006, 11:40 AM

joemailman

19th September 2006, 11:58 AM

Sally

19th September 2006, 12:04 PM

Sally, How come you got hit by a car in the first place????? After all, if god can spin trillions of tons of mass such as the earth and move it around the sun for all of his children surely he could have stopped an auto from hitting a 5 year old girl.....No?

Because God pushed me.

Really..how about I was five and I was unaware of traffic laws.

God doesnt take away free will. I never stated that.

Sally

19th September 2006, 12:05 PM

Ladewig

19th September 2006, 12:09 PM

IGod has worked through me has used me as a tool to comfort fearful soliders on their way to fight in what is basically a holy war in Iraq.

I am reticent to let this (lengthy) thread stray from the very important topic at hand, namely, is there some ability that you could perform that would qualify for the JREF challenge.

But try as I may, I cannot let this statement go. What exactly do you mean by "basically a holy war"? Do you see it as Christians fighting Muslims? Believers fighting unbelievers? Something else entirely? Is God cheering or helping one side and not the other?

Sally

19th September 2006, 12:22 PM

I am reticent to let this (lengthy) thread stray from the very important topic at hand, namely, is there some ability that you could perform that would qualify for the JREF challenge.

But try as I may, I cannot let this statement go. What exactly do you mean by "basically a holy war"? Do you see it as Christians fighting Muslims? Believers fighting unbelievers? Something else entirely? Is God cheering or helping one side and not the other?

A US president with a misguided sense of religion and mission inserting troops into a conflict between religious factions.

It is not the christians vs. the muslims. It is the Sunni's versus the Shiites which can actually unite against a common US occupation (ie the christians) because our bumbling president makes it so easy for them to do so.

PreciousD

19th September 2006, 12:58 PM

I can not speak of what Allah provides to his messangers of war but God does speak strongly against those that forsake Him. Is it not rational to say that the damnation that is the Middle East can be shown as proof of God's wrath?

I want to make something clear here. Allah is God. Allah is simply the arabic word for god. It's no different than a Spanish speeker using the word "Dios" or the French saying "Dieu." When you make a distinction like that you imply that Muslems or indeed arabic speaking Christians worship something other than God. Muslems are Yahwehists like Christians and Jews are. They may not have the exact same ideas about God as you do, but then different Christian and Jewish groups have different ideas too. You're premise that Muslems have forsaken God is simply ridiculous. They just don't worship him the same way you do. Hey, I don't worship him the same way you do (I sure don't go out and drink so much after a prayer meeting that I have a hangover the next day) does that mean I've abandond God?

As a Christian, I don't believe God spoke through Mohamed, and you know what? I don't believe he speeks through you either. Does that mean I've rejected his message?

By the way, there are more Muslems in the US then in Iraq (total numners not percentage.) Is God going to be releasing his wrath on us next?

timokay

19th September 2006, 01:01 PM

If I might, I would like to ask this again, since you did not address it.

Do you think that you could be convinced that it is not the presence of God that you feel?
That you may just be a wonderful person, who affects others with your positive nature. And that what you attribute to God may just be your own vitality?

Could you ever accept that, if you were unable to demonstrate the "divine?"
I am not sure of how to answer this.

What other explaination could be offered. I have not seen any out there.

Now you are just being evasive. My question is very clear and gives another explanation. You just do not want to entertain the possibility that your faith could be tested. You want others to be open to believing what you believe, but you are not open to your own faith being misguided.

I only bring this up because it pertains to any test you may take. You have demonstated that even if you are unable to pass any test, it will not shake your belief that God somehows shines through you.

You are wasting your own time and ours.

PreciousD

19th September 2006, 01:04 PM

I have seen no proof of Jesus being anything other than a mortal prophet. That is why I only speak of God.
I'm sorry, I was under the impession that you were a Christian, but your position on Jesus is exactly that of the Muslems. Could you please clarify. I realize there is a lot of variation on the definition of Christian, but most seem to agree that Jesus was the son of God and therefore more than mortal.

Or have I misunderstood and you are not a Christian?

Sally

19th September 2006, 01:08 PM

I want to make something clear here. Allah is God. Allah is simply the arabic word for god. It's no different than a Spanish speeker using the word "Dios" or the French saying "Dieu." When you make a distinction like that you imply that Muslems or indeed arabic speaking Christians worship something other than God. Muslems are Yahwehists like Christians and Jews are. They may not have the exact same ideas about God as you do, but then different Christian and Jewish groups have different ideas too. You're premise that Muslems have forsaken God is simply ridiculous. They just worship him the same way you do. Hey, I don't worship him the same way you do (I sure don't go out and drink so much after a prayer meeting that I have a hangover the next day) does that mean I've abandond God?

As a Christian, I don't believe God spoke through Mohamed, and you know what? I don't believe he speeks through you either. Does that mean I've rejected his message?

By the way, there are more Muslems in the US then in Iraq (total numners not percentage.) Is God going to be releasing his wrath on us next?

Of course I know Allah is the Muslim word for God. I was using to make a point that I do not have a relationship with the Muslim version of God. I can not speak for those that do. I only am speaking on My direct relationship with my God.

I am mortal I do not have the answer of why others do things they do. Like prevent woman from being seen, attack the unarmed innocent (both things done under the christian and muslim versions of God) I do no from teaching that God does punish those that forsake Him. I feel at comfort from MY (and only MY) direct actions with those involved with this conflict. I feel at peace with it, I do not support it or endorse it but am at peace with MY God on it. Its not an easy concept but us humans are complicated creatures..

Sally

19th September 2006, 01:10 PM

Now you are just being evasive. My question is very clear and gives another explanation. You just do not want to entertain the possibility that your faith could be tested. You want others to be open to believing what you believe, but you are not open to your own faith being misguided.

I only bring this up because it pertains to any test you may take. You have demonstated that even if you are unable to pass any test, it will not shake your belief that God somehows shines through you.

You are wasting your own time and ours.

I think I have used the small c christain to indentify myself once or twice. I have done that for ease and I apologize for being misleading. I am not affliated with any church or religion the people I meet with and myself believe in a personal relationship with God. We do not believe in any heirarchy or structure associated with it. There is God and that is it...

Sally

19th September 2006, 01:12 PM

Now you are just being evasive. My question is very clear and gives another explanation. You just do not want to entertain the possibility that your faith could be tested. You want others to be open to believing what you believe, but you are not open to your own faith being misguided.

I only bring this up because it pertains to any test you may take. You have demonstated that even if you are unable to pass any test, it will not shake your belief that God somehows shines through you.

You are wasting your own time and ours.

I have not asked anyone to believe I have offered that I want to help provide proof.

I have seen it myself I really would like to stay focused on showing others what I have seen and felt and leaving them to interpert or question as they feel. I do not preach and I am sorry if I have acted as if I do.

PreciousD

19th September 2006, 01:22 PM

I think I have used the small c christain to indentify myself once or twice. I have done that for ease and I apologize for being misleading. I am not affliated with any church or religion the people I meet with and myself believe in a personal relationship with God. We do not believe in any heirarchy or structure associated with it. There is God and that is it...

You are sounding more and more like a Muslem. Maybe you should look into it. They emphasise a personal relationship with God. They are strict monothiests (no trinity for example.) They view Jesus as a prophet. And though they have scholars and imams, there is no formal clergy or heirarchy.

Sally

19th September 2006, 01:28 PM

William Smith

19th September 2006, 01:30 PM

Okay first if I am delusional I shutter to think how far gone I may be :).

I am pretty sure I am your average functioning 27 year old female. Works a job, pays rent on time, dates (not all God lovers either :) ) , and has a social life outside of my prayer group.
...

Why does it say "Date of Birth: June 2, 1955" in your profile?

Sally

19th September 2006, 01:32 PM

Why does it say "Date of Birth: June 2, 1955" in your profile?

Because I never put real personal information in profiles. True age of 27 I am sorry for the misleading profile.

timokay

19th September 2006, 01:34 PM

I am not sure of how to answer this.

What other explaination could be offered. I have not seen any out there.

I have not asked anyone to believe I have offered that I want to help provide proof.

I have seen it myself I really would like to stay focused on showing others what I have seen and felt and leaving them to interpert or question as they feel. I do not preach and I am sorry if I have acted as if I do.

One last time.

Could you ever be convinced in any way that what you feel is not attributed to God?

The Atheist

19th September 2006, 01:36 PM

Because I never put real personal information in profiles. True age of 27 I am sorry for the misleading profile.
Or, to put it another way, "The very first thing I told you guys was a lie, but I'm telling the truth now, honest....." Wal-Mart, this AIN'T.

Goodbye

William Smith

19th September 2006, 01:38 PM

Fine I will look into it but I have no interest in any structure that has been used to start wars be it the Roman Catholic Church or the Nation of Islam.

This has nothing to do with the challenge application I am trying to formulate.

Okay lets drop God from the talk all together...

I am left with when I talk to people and touch them they feel a warmth in there belly and a sense of peacefulness.

So is that testable or laughable like it sounds..

Okay, so it shouldn't be necessary to pinpoint the feeling as radiating from a specific person: the collection of TBs should be able, based the overwhelming feeling, to say whether you are present behind a screen, or in a room whilst they are blindfolded, over a number of trials?

This is sounding like a pretty straightforward test to me.

Your thoughts, Sally?

Gr8wight and Nucular already hammered out a rough test protocol earlier in the thread, if you remember.

timokay

19th September 2006, 01:38 PM

I am left with when I talk to people and touch them they feel a warmth in there belly and a sense of peacefulness.

So is that testable or laughable like it sounds..

You have to determine why you think this is in any way unusual. You might just be a nice person. You need to consider that this is not special at all, and that being nice to people makes them feel good.

Can you be rude and obnoxious to them and still make them warm and peaceful?

Sally

19th September 2006, 01:39 PM

One last time.

Could you ever be convinced in any way that what you feel is not attributed to God?

Can you ever tell me what it could be attributed to if not God?

I am not closed to alternative explanations but millions of people attribute this to God is there something I am missing?

Sally

19th September 2006, 01:42 PM

You have to determine why you think this is in any way unusual. You might just be a nice person. You need to consider that this is not special at all, and that being nice to people makes them feel good.

Can you be rude and obnoxious to them and still make them warm and peaceful?

A reasonable person would answer that question no. I approach the situations wanting them to feel the love of humans and God. I am not going to approach a solider on his way to war and tell him to go F himself and his war than hug him and see if he still feels the warmth of God. It is against the greater purpose He has...

Sally

19th September 2006, 01:43 PM

Your thoughts, Sally?

Gr8wight and Nucular already hammered out a rough test protocol earlier in the thread, if you remember.

Did we not adjust that to the type of thing I tested last night.

The result was no measerable presence and a hangover for sally. I am ready to move on.. :)

William Smith

19th September 2006, 01:45 PM

Can you ever tell me what it could be attributed to if not God?

I am not closed to alternative explanations but millions of people attribute this to God is there something I am missing?

I'm breaking out the big guns, bear with me, Sally: In my country, millions of people openly supported Adolf Hitler. Is there something I am missing?

Also, it does not help your credibility if you answer timokays straightforward question with another question.

Sally

19th September 2006, 01:47 PM

I'm breaking out the big guns, bear with me, Sally: In my country, millions of people openly supported Adolf Hitler. Is there something I am missing?

Also, it does not help your credibility if you answer timokays straightforward question with another question.

Myself plus MILLION's upon MILLION'S of people worldwide have felt the power of God's love. Not just in one region, one country, one hemisphere. WORLDWIDE!

What could this feeling be BESIDES God's love is there any alternative at ALL!

I am sorry but there is only one explanation I have ever heard if you have another please PLEASE share...

EDIT:

I am trying to understand the best I can please bare with me I am trying to approach this as openly as I can...so if I seem angry it is just frustration for getting the same question but not seeing an answer to that question..

William Smith

19th September 2006, 01:51 PM

Did we not adjust that to the type of thing I tested last night.

The result was no measerable presence and a hangover for sally. I am ready to move on.. :)

Move on to working on "the challenge application I am trying to formulate", as you said?

That is a detail that will have to be worked out in negotiations with the JREF after an application has been submitted. Your application is required to include a short description of your claim, and a short description of how you propose to demonstrate your claim, as well as a statement about what kind of accuracy you expect to be able to attain. For example, your application might read:

"I claim that people, supplied by me, can sense my presence in a room without the use of traditional senses. To demonstrate this, I propose a test in which people are asked to identify whether or not I am in a room when my presence (or lack thereof) is concealed by a screen. I anticipate a better than 80% success rate in this test."

Short, and sweet, and to the point. I think your application would be accepted very quickly. After that happens, you and the JREF would work together to design a test that would be representative of your claim while controling for any possible mundane explanations. This would include the number of people involved, and how many trials would be required to ensure the result was statistically significant.

So now you could do it, as I also suggested earlier in this thread, by measuring the temperature, pulse rate or blood pressure.

Interested?

IXP

19th September 2006, 01:56 PM

Sally

19th September 2006, 01:56 PM

Move on to working on "the challenge application I am trying to formulate", as you said?

So now you could do it, as I also suggested earlier in this thread, by measuring the temperature, pulse rate or blood pressure.

Interested?

Of course but if those involved felt nothing do you think a physical test will produce anything at all? I have my doubts.

William Smith

19th September 2006, 01:57 PM

Myself plus MILLION's upon MILLION'S of people worldwide have felt the power of God's love. Not just in one region, one country, one hemisphere. WORLDWIDE!

What could this feeling be BESIDES God's love is there any alternative at ALL!

I am sorry but there is only one explanation I have ever heard if you have another please PLEASE share...
...

Please do not twist further what seems already a twisted reality, Sally.

You claim "God": You provide proof.

Countering our inquiry for evidence with "What could this feeling be BESIDES God's love is there any alternative at ALL!" does not provide any evidence. It might show you seem cornered, because you have no other explanation. No offense, Sally, really.

Sally

19th September 2006, 02:00 PM

Please do not twist further what seems already a twisted reality, Sally.

You claim "God": You provide proof.

Countering our inquiry for evidence with "What could this feeling be BESIDES God's love is there any alternative at ALL!" does not provide any evidence. It might show you seem cornered, because you have no other explanation. No offense, Sally, really.

I honestly do feel cornered.

I am trying to provide proof. I WANT to provide proof. I do not have all the answers I just know what I feel and what others have felt.

William Smith

19th September 2006, 02:00 PM

Of course but if those involved felt nothing do you think a physical test will produce anything at all? I have my doubts.

It will produce what we call "a negative".

It also might open another chance for you to reevaluate your view of reality - as any sane person does on a regular basis, Sally.

Sally

19th September 2006, 02:03 PM

The alternate explanation is that ALL feelings, sensations, whatever you want to call them are the product of an organ called the brain and the nervous system. There is considerable evidence for this explanation. There is no evidence for your explanation.

IXP

So why would I cause the brain to have a reaction to so many that they have never felt before?

I am asking as one honestly interested. Is it permones (sp?)? Is it something else. Why would I cause feelings that no others cause in so many???

Sally

19th September 2006, 02:05 PM

It will produce what we call "a negative".

It also might open another chance for you to reevaluate your view of reality - as any sane person does on a regular basis, Sally.

Wait this is the second time my sanity has been questioned today.

I honestly am trying to approach this as intellectually as I am able to. Since my test on a "gut" feeling produced a "negative" it is reasonable to say a test showing physical change would also be "negative". Correct?

Or am I off the deep end completely?

Ashles

19th September 2006, 02:06 PM

Myself plus MILLION's upon MILLION'S of people worldwide have felt the power of God's love. Not just in one region, one country, one hemisphere. WORLDWIDE!
Firstly how do you know they have had the same feelings as you have?

There are a lot of people who claim to believe in a God, but don't particularly seem to go out of their way to behave any differently to anyone else.

Secondly how do you know these feelings are from God and not simply a perfectly mundane (although very pleasant) feeling generated by your own mind/body.

Thirdly the desire for a belief in a God is pretty strong - maybe all these people want to believe in God's love and are as a result fooling themselves into feeling those emotions. Self delusion is fairly universal, as is human psychology and neurochemistry.

I am not saying this is correct, but there are certainly alternative explanations, they just aren't explanations you will necessarily like.

You feel an emotion of intense well-being - you attribute this to God. Fair enough. That is your belief. But you are stating this as fact, and that is where it all falls down as we don't seem to have any way of demonstrating this as such.

William Smith

19th September 2006, 02:06 PM

I honestly do feel cornered.

I am trying to provide proof. I WANT to provide proof. I do not have all the answers I just know what I feel and what others have felt.

If I do corner you, it is not intend in a hostile way. More like the Socratic method of posing questions.

The forum members see that you do want to provide proof. So far, you have done quite ok.

The next step might be to further evaluate if what you and others felt is measurable. If so, great. If not, you may have fallen into a "perceptive trap". And just have realised it.

timokay

19th September 2006, 02:07 PM

A reasonable person would answer that question no. I approach the situations wanting them to feel the love of humans and God. I am not going to approach a solider on his way to war and tell him to go F himself and his war than hug him and see if he still feels the warmth of God. It is against the greater purpose He has...

Yes, the alternate explanation is that there is no God, but that your warmth and positive nature is what makes people feel good.

Millions of people don't share your belief, and yet they also have a positive outlook and have a helpful nature. They also can make people feel warm and special. There is nothing spiritual about it.

Ashles

19th September 2006, 02:08 PM

I honestly do feel cornered.

I am trying to provide proof. I WANT to provide proof. I do not have all the answers I just know what I feel and what others have felt.
Feelings, no matter how intense, are not proof or evidence of anything.

There may well be people here who feel with the exact same level of intensity you experience that there is no God.

Why are they wrong and you are right? Is that not arrogance?
Can you not at least accept that other people feel and think different things to you, but just as intensely?

William Smith

19th September 2006, 02:10 PM

Wait this is the second time my sanity has been questioned today.

I honestly am trying to approach this as intellectually as I am able to. Since my test on a "gut" feeling produced a "negative" it is reasonable to say a test showing physical change would also be "negative". Correct?

Or am I off the deep end completely?

Sally, I did not question your sanity. Seriously.

There is a chance that "a test showing physical change would also be "negative"". Correct.

As soon as you regularly critically reevaluate your view of reality, you're most likely not "off the deep end completely".

Sally

19th September 2006, 02:10 PM

Thirdly the desire for a belief in a God is pretty strong - maybe all these people want to believe in God's love and are as a result fooling themselves into feeling those emotions. Self delusion is fairly universal, as is human psychology and neurochemistry.

A honest question. I am trying to be very open to everyones opinion so please take baby steps with me.

Do you have any evidence of any other such world wide delusion taking place. Religion is a pretty universal thing the smallest tribes in Africa to the most powerful western countries share a common thread of religion. What else besides a belief in God (Allah, Buddha, Krisna, a spirit world, etc) has been seen across the world and with such power over peoples lives?

That is what convinces me God is real, he has touched almost everyone around the globe...

IXP

19th September 2006, 02:10 PM

I'll give you several possibilities:

1. You are a remarkable lovable person. People do react to different strangers very differently.

2. You are exagerating their reactions somewhat. They do react warmly toward you, but it is not outside the norm.

3. You are completely deluded.

4. You are lying.

Without observing the pheonomenon and comparing the response to you with the response to others, I cannot distiguish.

IXP

Sally

19th September 2006, 02:14 PM

If I do corner you, it is not intend in a hostile way. More like the Socratic method of posing questions.

The forum members see that you do want to provide proof. So far, you have done quite ok.

The next step might be to further evaluate if what you and others felt is measurable. If so, great. If not, you may have fallen into a "perceptive trap". And just have realised it.

As I said to ashes baby steps please.

Okay are you saying to measure at a time this occurs again? I am not sure how I do that start every conversation I have with I need a base tempature and blood pressure reading and than if the feel this warmth measure it again?

And I do think I would be able to attribute God to a raise in blood pressure I am sure I as a wiley female can figure out ways to do that that are quite far from spiritual..

Ashles

19th September 2006, 02:18 PM

A honest question. I am trying to be very open to everyones opinion so please take baby steps with me.

Do you have any evidence of any other such world wide delusion taking place.
Yes:
Alien visitation
Ghosts
Fairies
Vampires
Werewolves
Telekinesis
Near death experience
Healing by laying on of hands
Prediction of the future by entrails/astrology/dice/etc.

Many, many world wide beliefs that cross cultures ages races etc. Do you believe in all of them? If not why do you reject some of them?

Starrman

19th September 2006, 02:19 PM

So why would I cause the brain to have a reaction to so many that they have never felt before?

I am asking as one honestly interested. Is it permones (sp?)? Is it something else. Why would I cause feelings that no others cause in so many???

Sally, what is it about the sensation YOU experience rules out your brain injury, and leaves god as the ONLY possibility.

Just because something feels good, or is pleasurable, does not mean it is not related to damage to the brain - ask any cocaine addict.

As for the experiences others feel, I think they are true believers whose brains are feeling something because they are in the presence of someone claiming to have a direct link to the entity they worship. I get goosebumps when I hear a song I like - it is a physical reaction to a pleasurable experience. I nearly cry every time my 2 year old goes to the potty, it's a physical response to a real event that has meaning to me. These people are experiencing something that evokes a response - it is the most basic thing that humans do. If god is real to them being in the presence of someone making claims like yours is bound to get a physiological response. I would be more surprised if they didn't.

The key is understanding that a physical response means that they are having a physical response, not that there are any magic rays of god love shooting into their bodies (sorry for the corny analogy). Hence the references from other posters about similar experiences from meditation, etc.

Sally

19th September 2006, 02:24 PM

Yes:
Alien visitation
Ghosts
Fairies
Vampires
Werewolves
Telekinesis
Near death experience
Healing by laying on of hands
Prediction of the future by entrails/astrology/dice/etc.

Many, many world wide beliefs that cross cultures ages races etc. Do you believe in all of them? If not why do you reject some of them?

Were not Werewolves Vampires and the such written about before legend spread world wide.

Religion predates the written word from my understanding...

Ghosts, healings near death experiences all can be attributed to a spirit world and tied into religion. Those seem to support my claim...

William Smith

19th September 2006, 02:25 PM

As I said to ashes baby steps please.

Okay are you saying to measure at a time this occurs again? I am not sure how I do that start every conversation I have with I need a base tempature and blood pressure reading and than if the feel this warmth measure it again?

And I do think I would be able to attribute God to a raise in blood pressure I am sure I as a wiley female can figure out ways to do that that are quite far from spiritual..

Not every conversation, Sally.

Try your group again, for example. A short, quick test proposal for detecting "a presence" like you said via body functions:

1. Testees: Bring 5 believers, 5 non-believers.
2. Testers: You and another person.
3. Base Line Test with you. Check temperature, blood pressure, pulse. Note results.
4. Blindfold testees. Give them notepads to note results. No communication allowed.
5. You or the other person enter the room. Have a third party announce the entering.
6. Do several trials. Note results.
7. Check results.

This is as quick as I could off the top of my head. The controls need an upgrade, as well as the test itself. It will allow for an outline of what to expect with more rigorous testing.

Your thoughts, Sally?

Sally

19th September 2006, 02:30 PM

Not every conversation, Sally.

Try your group again, for example. A short, quick test proposal for detecting "a presence" like you said via body functions:

1. Testees: Bring 5 believers, 5 non-believers.
2. Testers: You and another person.
3. Base Line Test with you. Check temperature, blood pressure, pulse. Note results.
4. Blindfold testees. Give them notepads to note results. No communication allowed.
5. You or the other person enter the room. Have a third party announce the entering.
6. Do several trials. Note results.
7. Check results.

This is as quick as I could off the top of my head. The controls need an upgrade, as well as the test itself. It will allow for an outline of what to expect with more rigorous testing.

Your thoughts, Sally?

I am still confused?

I tested last night with a group of believers and what they felt was in the norm of there everyday life. It did not matter if I was sitting in the room or outside the room..

I would expect a physical test to reproduce a negative result. I was trying to find a way to do a phyiscal test at the time someone DID feel the effect I describe. I suspect that if they physically feel the warmth and the love that would be measerable physically.

toddjh

19th September 2006, 02:31 PM

Ghosts, healings near death experiences all can be attributed to a spirit world and tied into religion. Those seem to support my claim...

Yes, religion and belief in the supernatural are near-universal traits of most human cultures dating back to prehistoric times.

What I don't understand is why you think that constitutes evidence that such things are true. At one point just about everybody thought the earth was the center of the universe, too.

Ashles

19th September 2006, 02:31 PM

Another world wide delusion was geocentrism - that the sun went round the earth. It looked right, it felt right.
We felt we and the earth were so important that we must be the centre of the universe. It must have seemed franky bizarre when anyone even suggested otherwise.

But of course now we know better.

Similarly it seems that it is often sceptics who display humility in the face of the universe, and the believers who express the elevated degree of their own importance.

You have taken what you perceive as a positive feeling (which you believe is the power of God) and made, to be honest, pretty sweeping statements about what it can achieve through you. Breaking up fights, calming the bereaved and even bringing peace to the middle east.
Don't get me wrong - it is great when someone has specific claims that can be tested and we are all for that.

But if there are others like you who have this belief and power... why is there still all this trouble everywhere? If millions and millions of people feel the same as you then why is the world as it is?

Is it all the fault of non-believers? I would find your answer to this question very interesting.

Pup

19th September 2006, 02:33 PM

Take a couple dozen people with minor common phobias. Like, I dunno, fear of snakes, or fear of heights. Pick one, to make it easy. I have a fear of heights, and I wouldn't hesitate to sign up for something benign like this.

Hook 'em up to heart rate monitors. One by one, introduce (safely) the object they fear--a caged snake, a window looking out the 50th floor, whatever. Record their heart rate.

Later, when their heart rate is normal again, introduce the object they fear again, with Sally doing her thing for half of them and--here's the catch--a placebo treatment for the other half. See if those that Sally has calmed have heart rates significantly lower, compared to their previous reading, than those whom Sally hasn't calmed.

Problem is, the placebo. If Sally's presence were enough, she or another person could stand behind them behind a screen, similar to the other test, where she's either in the room or not.

If she needs to touch them, even a hand on their shoulder, it already gets into subjective territory. A calm, gentle, steady touch is going to be better than a sudden rough touch, even if the difference is slight, even if the instructions are "just put your hand on their shoulder from behind."

But that's the whole point. A person with a natural talent for calming people is going to have better results than a person without that natural talent, as long as the person can interact with the subjects, and there's no need to introduce the concept of "god." It's all in their body language, tone of voice, etc.

So how could the non-paranormal ability to use a soothing voice and gentle touch be eliminated, in this kind of trial, so only the paranormal (god-influenced) effect can be tested?

timokay

19th September 2006, 02:33 PM

William Smith

19th September 2006, 02:36 PM

I am still confused?

I tested last night with a group of believers and what they felt was in the norm of there everyday life. It did not matter if I was sitting in the room or outside the room..

I would expect a physical test to reproduce a negative result. I was trying to find a way to do a phyiscal test at the time someone DID feel the effect I describe. I suspect that if they physically feel the warmth and the love that would be measerable physically.

Sally, you said "believers" feel the presence of "God" when they're with you. You described that did and does happen while you're with your group.

Perhaps you should simply try the test and not "expect" too much beforehand. The more evidence you can gather on a specific question, the better, right?

You asked the forum members in this thread to help you with the "the challenge application I am trying to formulate". If I got you wrong, please tell us how we can help you now.

Ashles

19th September 2006, 02:38 PM

Were not Werewolves Vampires and the such written about before legend spread world wide.
No - they are common international legends that go back thousands of years.

Religion predates the written word from my understanding...
So does fear of death and an ability for misperception. I don't understand your point there.

Ghosts, healings near death experiences all can be attributed to a spirit world and tied into religion. Those seem to support my claim...
So you believe in healing by laying on of hands?

What about the examples you have ignored, like alien visitations?

Sally

19th September 2006, 02:41 PM

Sally, you said "believers" feel the presence of "God" when they're with you. You described that did and does happen while you're with your group.

Perhaps you should simply try the test and not "expect" too much beforehand. The more evidence you can gather on a specific question, the better, right?

You asked the forum members in this thread to help you with the "the challenge application I am trying to formulate". If I got you wrong, please tell us how we can help you now.

You did see my post #319.

I did the test and got a negative result from a simple "gut" feeling. I think in the same type of set up the physical result will be the same. I do not wish to waste the groups time again...

William Smith

19th September 2006, 02:43 PM

You did see my post #319.

I did the test and got a negative result from a simple "gut" feeling. I think in the same type of set up the physical result will be the same. I do not wish to waste the groups time again...

Does this mean you quit pondering "the challenge application I am trying to formulate"?

Sally

19th September 2006, 02:44 PM

Does this mean you quit pondering "the challenge application I am trying to formulate"?

No I am looking for other methods.

I think Pup just posted some excellent thoughts. I like the idea of introducing stress I do feel that is where I have had luck in strangers feeling the presence of God's work...

Sally

19th September 2006, 02:46 PM

Loss Leader

19th September 2006, 02:47 PM

Dragons.

Dragons were a pretty much world-wide delusion that occurred long before people were sharing information. The Chinese had dragons, the Mayans had dragons, everybody had them.

And at no time was the world-wide belief in dragons ever evidence of the existence of dragons. Everybody was wrong.

The belief in God is no different.

William Smith

19th September 2006, 02:53 PM

No I am looking for other methods.

I think Pup just posted some excellent thoughts. I like the idea of introducing stress I do feel that is where I have had luck in strangers feeling the presence of God's work...

Luck?

Luck?

From your OP, Sally: "(...)God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me..." (Bolding mine.)

Luck?

Sally

19th September 2006, 03:06 PM

Luck?

Luck?

From your OP, Sally: "(...)God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me..." (Bolding mine.)

Luck?

Okay off for the night.

Maybe I will test my theory on some of the unwitting bar patrons..Ha...

Umm maybe luck was a bad choice in words. I mean I have had success in having people feel his presence in situations of stress. That is where I started to recongnize the gift..

Crowbot

19th September 2006, 03:07 PM

thinking and praying...

There is a difference? ;)

Ashles

19th September 2006, 03:08 PM

To summerize the outside the actual challenge discussion.

The sun circles the earth, the world is flat, alien visitation legends of vampires and werewolves predating written word as we know it do all provide good universal examples of beliefs that I would easly discredit.

All I can say is food for thought I do not have all the answers but will keep thinking and praying...
I note your evasion.

I gave a list of examples of common delusions (whether they are actually delusions or not is not the point here).
You chose a couple you felt you could answer, but ignored the rest.

Aliens are a good example - millions of people worldwide believe they have visited earth.
Do you think they are deluded? Yes, no or can't say?
You response would be interesting.

Sally

19th September 2006, 03:10 PM

I note your evasion.

I gave a list of examples of common delusions (whether they are actually delusions or not is not the point here).
You chose a couple you felt you could answer, but ignored the rest.

Aliens are a good example - millions of people worldwide believe they have visited earth.
Do you think they are deluded? Yes, no or can't say?
You response would be interesting.

I am off for the night but will return tomorrow hitting the second bar maid job to pay some bills..

Can you give a girl time to think over things I just said you and others offered some good food for thought..I would like to spend time pondering such things..

chance

19th September 2006, 03:11 PM

I am not talking palour tricks people. Gods will is not to give lottery numbers find metal under a cup or read peoples mind. God is love and God is forgiveness.

I am asking the deepest and most outright skeptics to tell me what would prove that God is in all of our lives not that I can do a cool trick and claim God did it. I am smarter than that and it will not bring in the critical thinkers as believers.

Edit:
Here is one of the lines I was thinking on. Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity...

I don’t think you quite understand the limitations of science, it is indeed restricted to ‘parlour tricks’ as you call them. Because many con-artists use ‘parlour tricks’ as proof of their divinely inspired powers to con people. The JREF take the position that it can expose such parlour tricks for what they are.

Your claim seems to be one of “laugh and the whole world laughs with you”, nothing really paranormal about that, is there? Laughter, happiness is somewhat contagious, is it not.

William Smith

19th September 2006, 03:19 PM

Okay off for the night.

Maybe I will test my theory on some of the unwitting bar patrons..Ha...

Umm maybe luck was a bad choice in words. I mean I have had success in having people feel his presence in situations of stress. That is where I started to recongnize the gift..

Prove it, please.

And don't go Joe Lose-, um, Lieberman on us. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-3Lv_VkHSY

timokay

19th September 2006, 03:22 PM

How about this for a home test. It's weak in areas but might be a good start.

You take your group of people, hopefully a dozen or so and you pray until you are convinced that God's presence is with you, then you sit one if them in a room facing the doorway with a pad of paper. Far enough so that you can't smell them, or get any sensory clues other than sight from the doorway. Try to notice if anyone breathes aloud, or makes unique noises.

Then stand in the doorway, and without making any other sounds, just knock once on the door, let the person on the chair see you, Sally, and then have them tell you if they can detect your spirit, or whatever you think makes your presence felt.

If they can, then one at a time, let each of member your group take a turn in the doorway, and have the person in the chair acknowledge that they either did, or did not sense anything.

Ok, if the person in the chair only sensed you, then blindfold the person, and randomly mix you into the hall group. Pick a number out of a hat or something, then, one at a time, and without making a sound, have everyone stand before the door, knock once, wait, and move on. Have the person in the chair make a mark on a piece of paper when they think they sensed you.

Then, and this is important, have everyone take a turn in the chair, they must first be able to sense you while seeing you in order to conduct the blindfolded part. You must do this 12 times (if you have 12 people) at the very least, more is better of course.

At the end, compare how many people sensed you and only you while blindfolded.

The weak parts of this test that I can see are:
Honesty of course, everyone must be dedicated to being quiet and not giving clues
Blindfolds can be very unreliable
Cues from sound, smell and other sensory indications.

A much better test would involve total strangers and sensory deprivation, but you need these people to sense you at all in the first place, and you have stated that this does happen all the time, so it may not be a problem.

Ashles

19th September 2006, 03:28 PM

I am off for the night but will return tomorrow hitting the second bar maid job to pay some bills..

Can you give a girl time to think over things I just said you and others offered some good food for thought..I would like to spend time pondering such things..
Of course, have a good evening.

I hope I don't come over too strongly (apologies if I do) - I am just genuinely interested in your responses on this subject.

Vanda

19th September 2006, 03:43 PM

Do you have any evidence of any other such world wide delusion taking place. Religion is a pretty universal thing the smallest tribes in Africa to the most powerful western countries share a common thread of religion. What else besides a belief in God (Allah, Buddha, Krisna, a spirit world, etc) has been seen across the world and with such power over peoples lives?

That is what convinces me God is real, he has touched almost everyone around the globe...

Hi Sally,

If you are truly open to exploring possible reasons why world wide delusions develop and perpetuate, you may find interesting a short, easy-to-read (not that you need it to be easy) book by Michael Shermer entitled “Why People Believe Weird Things." I always knew why I personally did not believe weird things, but I could never understand why other people did. This book made it clear for me.

JayT

19th September 2006, 04:46 PM

Hi Everyone,

I have been lurking around here for some time in hopes of finding the best way to appy for the challenge. Since I am still in the dark on how to do so I am coming here for advice.
...

There is no possible way to scientifically test such a theory.

In other words, if you are right, it cannot be proven. If you are wrong, it cannot be proven. Untestable means unprovable either way.

The JREF prize is for anyone who can prove ANY supernatural claim to be scientifically verifiable as true, including the existence of a deity. Just how one may prove the reality of a deity in that context is a mystery to me, but anyone may try.

You will have to design a scientific experiment and then decide on how it is to be performed and exactly what constitutes a success or failure. It is not an easy task.

It is not the place of science to answer metaphysical questions of this type, but science can in some cases show that certain beliefs are simply impossible or just plain wrong.

One stark reality exists that often goes unmentioned. Many religious beliefs have been proven wrong by science throughout history. Religion has NEVER proven science wrong on any occasion. The importance of that observation, spanning over thousands of years, cannot be overestimated.

Science is not the least concerned with who supposedly created the universe, but once created, science only seeks to understand the scientific rules that govern its natural behaviour, preferably in a manner that allows us to test the theories derived from scientific observations.

Neither implication nor amazing coincidence equate to scientific proof. This means that although the complexity of the universe is said by some to imply an intelligent hand, the observation of that complexity or any number of amazing coincidences does not scientifically prove the contention that intelligence must be behind its design.

Science studies only the natural causes and effects within nature, not the supernatural which provides no substance with which to work, only claims with no testable evidence.

Bear in mind that even sufficiently advanced alien science could pass as magic from our primitive point of view, just as our ability to create fire with a flick of a finger may appear to be wondrous magic to a primitive aborigine who has never encountered modern technology before.

Scientists are obligated to accept the possibility that a theory just might possibly be wrong and accept the evidence whichever way it leads. This is the proper attitude of someone seeking the truth.

Religious people generally start with the assumption they are right and then rigidly refuse to accept any contrary evidence, no matter how strong that evidence may be. This is not the attitude of someone seeking the truth.

The biggest problem here is that the religious concept of truth and the scientific concept of truth are incompatible and arrived at by different paths often taken in opposite directions.

In my opinion, religious beliefs exist because people simply want to believe in a higher order of reality, perhaps to sooth some inner fear of the unknown, but not because honest scientific inquiry leads them to such conclusions.

Loss Leader

19th September 2006, 08:53 PM

Mashuna

20th September 2006, 03:49 AM

How do I say this without getting booted off the board?

Does anybody else think that in order to know just what natural/supernatural effect Sally may be having on people she talks to it might be important to see a picture of her?

Oh, I am going to hell.

Well, without wishing to lower the tone, I think I'd feel better about my day if strange (in the unknown sense, not weird) 27 year old women were approaching me and trying to cheer me up / relax me. I think bar fights could also be broken up in this way (I also think a lot of bar 'fights' start off as posturing and insults then never quite make it to the fighting stage. Probably couldn't run a trial on this, with placebo fights though).

So sure, let's see a picture. Purely for the sake of scientific enquiry.:D

Ceritus

20th September 2006, 05:15 AM

Sally, can you make your God turn off the sun for a couple days? I think that would be more than enough.

Sally

20th September 2006, 06:25 AM

Okay I had a bit of a hard night last night trying to figure out what my next steps may be. I think the best way to approach this for me know is to try to find out what "gift" or "talent" I have leaving God out of the equation for now. I have had just too many people tell me that they have felt a warmth and peacefulness when around me to not believe something is going on...

Just an aside...

I was talking to one of my regulars last night that has no idea I am a God nut on the side. He has never spoken of being warm or peaceful but we have had a few good late night talks on slow nights...

I was asking him last night why he thinks random people would tell me that they felt at peace and calm when talking to me. He said it was because I have kind eyes...maybe that is it after all...or more likely he was just hitting on me like usual... ;)

Look like I have some reading, thinking, and more talking to do...I do appreciate all the help though..

Sally

20th September 2006, 06:26 AM

Sally, can you make your God turn off the sun for a couple days? I think that would be more than enough.

No.

Nucular

20th September 2006, 06:31 AM

A further thought - it seems that one of the problems here is that God is unwilling to perform 'parlour tricks'. But, as you mentioned, God also wishes to perform in such a way as to convince skeptics of His existence.

It appears He seemed willing at first to demonstrate His existence through you, by allowing your presence to be detected through non-natural means; but then in some way changed His mind, perhaps deciding that this too amounts to a parlour trick. We're used to that around here, and as mentioned we all appreciate your honest testing of the idea.

But this seems to leave us something of a quandary. Almost anything designed simply to demonstrate God's action in a safe, controlled environment could be considered a parlour trick, couldn't it?

True, you mention that God seems not to consider ending people's extreme stress, through your presence, a parlour trick; and I really like someone else's idea that perhaps people with severe phobias could be used in some way to help induce a stressful situation in a fairly safe way.

But once again, does not the safety of this situation remove it from the realm of Good Works, and instead render it once more a parlour trick?

I guess all of this depends on whether God really does want to convince sceptics that He exists. Because if that is God's will, then surely the 'tricks' once more gain the status of Good Works?

Also, I wonder Sally whether you consider the miracles described in the Bible to have occurred historically; because if so, many of those amount pretty much to parlour tricks performed to convince sceptics. And pretty much any of those performed under controlled conditions I'm sure would win the JREF prize, making us all sit up and take notice as God seems to wish.

Incidentally, how do you know, Sally, that this is what God wishes? Did He tell you? Is He being purposely obtuse in not telling you how?

Do you think there's any way we could test whether you are communicating with God (or an external agency of some kind) at all? I wonder if this might be the sort of test the results of which you would take account of, and re-evaluate your beliefs in the way we promise to do if your test passes the JREF challenge?

Maybe simply showing us that you can gain information thrugh non-natural means, as we might expect if you are communicating with an external presence of some kind?

MRC_Hans

20th September 2006, 06:34 AM

Edit:
Here is one of the lines I was thinking on. Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity...(I didn't read much past this post, so maybe it's already covered)

That would be an excellent thing to do. I don't know if it will win you the million, but I can say that if I could do such a thing, I wouldn't worry about the money.

Somebody else mentioned this: Why are you askin us what to do to convince everybody? Ask your God; she'll know.

Hans

Nucular

20th September 2006, 06:35 AM

I think the best way to approach this for me know is to try to find out what "gift" or "talent" I have leaving God out of the equation for now.

Sounds like a good plan.

I have had just too many people tell me that they have felt a warmth and peacefulness when around me to not believe something is going on...

Something, indeed so. But 'what' is the operative question.

I was asking him last night why he thinks random people would tell me that they felt at peace and calm when talking to me. He said it was because I have kind eyes...maybe that is it after all...or more likely he was just hitting on me like usual... ;)

Or perhaps a little of each :) Seriously, are you actually considering that what he said might have some merit - that there's something about you and your demeanour which puts people at their ease, and that it might have nothing to do with a God?

Plastictowel

20th September 2006, 06:55 AM

As a man, if any attractive girl came over to me, and used the power of "touch" to calm me down, it would most likely work, god, spaghetti monsters, santa, or no god, the power of attractive touch...will prevail!

Plastictowel

20th September 2006, 06:57 AM

Question.
Do these people actually just out right say "Woah I suddenly got an overwhelming sense of peace and happiness!" or do you maybe get that answer out of them when you ask "How do you feel now?"

p.s. Thank god you posted honest test results.

Cuddles

20th September 2006, 08:50 AM

To summerize the outside the actual challenge discussion.

The sun circles the earth, the world is flat, alien visitation legends of vampires and werewolves predating written word as we know it do all provide good universal examples of beliefs that I would easly discredit.

All I can say is food for thought I do not have all the answers but will keep thinking and praying...

How would you easily discredit them? You seem to assume that these ideas are silly while yours isn't. Do you have any argument against the Flying Spaghetti Monster that couldn't equally be applied to your god, or any other for that matter?

petre

20th September 2006, 08:54 AM

While things seem to be winding down here, I think now may be time for me to weigh in on the "what other explanation" question. Understand that it's not something I believe in, but simply a tool to illustrate a point.

Perhaps Sally truely does have supernatural powers, and they were granted to her by Satan. It may be that the true path to heaven can be found in the Bible, and so to distract people from following the path he influences people to create new religions or sects that stray from that path. To be convincing, he grants wonderful abilities like spreading warmth and happiness or overwhelming charisma to people likely to lead others from the one true path. In such a scenario, it seems that God chooses (for whatever reason) not to act in opposition to this.

What test, then, could distinguish between a belief that God is the actor behind these events and one that the actor is Satan instead? I'd say there's a good many folks here that can think of no such test that would convince them absolutely.

For example, consider a situation where a being presented itself to you, told you "I am God, exactly as described in the Bible", and then as offered proof split the moon in half, made the sun blink on and off, and moved all the stars in the universe into a single plane spelling out "See? I told you I was God!".

To a skeptic, this would appear to be proof that there exists a being that has telekenetic powers on a cosmological scale that defy known (or really by that point, previously-believed) laws. Or maybe just a really powerful halucination. In any event, it still would not necessarily convince a skeptic that this is indeed the God described in the Bible, as the being could simply be an extrordinarily powerful alien that enjoys lying about that sort of thing. Nor would it necessarily be proof-positive of the exsitance of an afterlife, perhaps even this powerful being can die and cease to continue consciousness in any way.

That should make the difficulty involved in Sally's task a little clearer. If you wish a skeptic to believe every aspect of a described diety, then you must demonstrate each of those aspects. To demonstrate any limited set of amazing things, and then claim that therefore everything else you say should be believed is an appeal to authority that skeptics simply won't agree to.

Bob Klase

20th September 2006, 09:14 AM

The JREF prize is for anyone who can prove ANY supernatural claim to be scientifically verifiable as true, including the existence of a deity. Just how one may prove the reality of a deity in that context is a mystery to me, but anyone may try.

Proving the existence of a deity is very specifically Not eligible for the JREF prize:

The following things have been ruled NOT paranormal and/or NOT eligible for the Challenge in the past:

UFOs. "Bigfoot" & "Yeti" (or other legendary creatures). Anything that is likely to cause injury. "Cloud-busting". Claims of a Religious or Spiritual nature. Exorcism and/or Demonic Possession. The Existence of Chakras. The Existence of God[s]. Reincarnation. The Existence of the Soul or "Astral Bodies".

Bob Klase

20th September 2006, 09:16 AM

I know the Iraq war is part of God's plan.
Couple that with a small God complex of W's own and the man is dangerous...I believe he started the war out of pure personal gain and to make daddy happy but that is strictly my belief.

Good Plan. Since you KNOW it was part of the plan, why do you believe that Bush didn't start the war because god made him follow the plan?

Myself plus MILLION's upon MILLION'S of people worldwide have felt the power of God's love.

Is that what they call 'collateral damage' now?

Winterfrost

20th September 2006, 10:25 AM

When I started reading this thread I was quite sure that "Sally" was a sock puppet -- whether it was a gag or someone trying to "prove something" I wasn't sure. I just couldn't swallow that someone who claimed to lurk in the forum for some time could ever start a thread basically stating, "After severe head trauma I started to see God, please help me prove he exists." Surely they would know this was like chum in the JREF shark tank!

After reading through the whole thread I have changed my opinion. I think, Sally, that you are sincere in your pursuits. You seem to be asking honest questions, even if some of your beliefs still seem to be on a pedestal of "untouchability/unquestionability."

Some of the more recent posts have some very good questions for you to consider -- even if you don't answer them here.

On another note, I think Nucular, Gr8wight, and GzuzKryzt particularly deserve kudos for keeping the thread on track and helping to develop a rough test protocol.

timokay

20th September 2006, 10:28 AM

Sally

20th September 2006, 11:11 AM

Well, without wishing to lower the tone, I think I'd feel better about my day if strange (in the unknown sense, not weird) 27 year old women were approaching me and trying to cheer me up / relax me. I think bar fights could also be broken up in this way (I also think a lot of bar 'fights' start off as posturing and insults then never quite make it to the fighting stage. Probably couldn't run a trial on this, with placebo fights though).

So sure, let's see a picture. Purely for the sake of scientific enquiry.:D

Kinda of busy today but all your ideas and questions posted are floating along in the back of my mind.

I hope I never claimed to have all the answer for I do not I am searching just like I hope all of you are. I still believe there is something bigger out there but am honestly questioning what affect I have on people and why..

Ohh and just so those thoughts can leave your head I am not all that to look at...

http://s91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/JadaMayfair/

timokay

20th September 2006, 11:39 AM

Sally, you are quite lovely, and would certainly make anyone you are around warm and peaceful.

Good luck to you.

Sally

20th September 2006, 12:24 PM

Thank you Tim

chillzero

20th September 2006, 12:30 PM

Kinda of busy today but all your ideas and questions posted are floating along in the back of my mind.

I hope I never claimed to have all the answer for I do not I am searching just like I hope all of you are. I still believe there is something bigger out there but am honestly questioning what affect I have on people and why..

Ohh and just so those thoughts can leave your head I am not all that to look at...

http://s91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/JadaMayfair/

Which one's you?

IXP

20th September 2006, 12:42 PM

Here we go, posting cat pictures again!

IXP

Crowbot

20th September 2006, 12:44 PM

Which one's you?

The one that isnt a cat?

Almost every woman I know goes between being a blonde and a brunette almost on a seasonal basis...what is with that?

chillzero

20th September 2006, 12:52 PM

The one that isnt a cat?

Almost every woman I know goes between being a blonde and a brunette almost on a seasonal basis...what is with that?

Do they also change their face shapes, and mouth shapes as regularly?

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/JadaMayfair/me24.jpg
long nose, narrow chin, strong cheekbones

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/JadaMayfair/me5.jpg
rounder face, wider nose

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/JadaMayfair/me6.jpg
much rounder face, wider nose, shorter space from lip to chin
not the same person, imo.

Crowbot

20th September 2006, 01:00 PM

Do they also change their face shapes, and mouth shapes as regularly?

Oh, I didnt expand the pictures. You do have a point though, looking closer. Could be attributed to diet and exercise or lack thereof!

chillzero

20th September 2006, 01:04 PM

Oh, I didnt expand the pictures. You do have a point though, looking closer. Could be attributed to diet and exercise or lack thereof!

Maybe. I am just a little suspicious of the style of photos against the nature of this conversation.

Sally

20th September 2006, 01:05 PM

Do they also change their face shapes, and mouth shapes as regularly?

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/JadaMayfair/me24.jpg
long nose, narrow chin, strong cheekbones

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/JadaMayfair/me5.jpg
rounder face, wider nose

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/JadaMayfair/me6.jpg
much rounder face, wider nose, shorter space from lip to chin
not the same person, imo.

See as I said not much.

Thank you btw always was the chubby girl its nice to see you can still point out the wideness of my facial features.

Sally

20th September 2006, 01:08 PM

Maybe. I am just a little suspicious of the style of photos against the nature of this conversation.

You can join Mr. Towel's camp.

I have always stated I am not your typical church going girl I do not look the role or play the part.

Many those I contact have no idea of my religious ideas.

Crowbot

20th September 2006, 01:14 PM

Thank you btw always was the chubby girl its nice to see you can still point out the wideness of my facial features.

Hey, i'd hit it Sally. But let's stay on topic. Have you thought of any ideas involving stress for proving your ability? I have one: have you ever volunteered at any kind of clinic?

Sally

20th September 2006, 01:17 PM

Hey, i'd hit it Sally. But let's stay on topic. Have you thought of any ideas involving stress for proving your ability? I have one: have you ever volunteered at any kind of clinic?

I work as a receptionist at an addiction treatment center. I am in a volunteer group that puts on family events for soliders being deployed. I moonlight as a bartender..

Sooo whatever you have in mind I am sure I have access to I see all types..

Ohh and you wish crow... ;0

chillzero

20th September 2006, 01:28 PM

... But let's stay on topic. ...

quite. My apologies for digressing, but I was asking an honest question.

Plastictowel

20th September 2006, 01:44 PM

He can't join my camp, I see the same girl in every photo, just like Crow said, changing your hair color with the seasons.

And I don't sterotype on looks according to religion....well for the most part, but I assume anyone with a large nose and curly pubic hair on there head to quite possible be a....

Sally

20th September 2006, 01:48 PM

well for the most part, but I assume anyone with a large nose and curly pubic hair on there head to quite possible be a....

What the hell are you trying to say with that?!!!?

Just say it stop hiding.

You made assumption about my views on mortal sins, sex before marriage, etc You heard me talk about God and expected me to spout the same doctrine you heard growing up.

I did no such thing but you continued to assume until you were set straight and here you are continuing to assult me and it would appear on a physical trait level.

Very low and very childish towel boy.

tsig

20th September 2006, 01:58 PM

Loss Leader

20th September 2006, 02:00 PM

Ohh and just so those thoughts can leave your head I am not all that to look at...

http://s91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/JadaMayfair/

First of all, I can't believe that worked.

Second, I am now prepared to say that Sally/Jada's description of her powers are entirely consistent with the normal reactions a person would have to a sympathetic, optimistic, pleasant-looking young girl.

Third, smile more in pictures.

Crowbot

20th September 2006, 02:02 PM

I work as a receptionist at an addiction treatment center. I am in a volunteer group that puts on family events for soliders being deployed. I moonlight as a bartender..

Sooo whatever you have in mind I am sure I have access to I see all types..

I'm not sure whether the soldier family members or the addicts would be more stressed out, but either will work. My idea is simple, and the results would be more subjective than would be acceptable for the JREF prelim *but* it would be a 'good first step' towards proving you have this ability.

You'll need to be able to have 1on1 sessions with "patients" that do not already know you or know anything about your claimed ability. You will also need another volunteer doing the EXACT SAME sessions without you present.

You would simply need to create a questionnaire that asks important questions about the person's session (make the questions easy and the answers a simple 1-5 rating scale from 'satisfactory' to 'unsatisfactory') and the final question would have an OPTIONAL essay box and the title of the essay box would be "please describe how the person giving the session made you feel". It would be important that you not mention your ability (or religious beliefs for that matter) during the session.

Assuming you HAVE this ability, your essay boxes would be filled with the same words you might describe when talking about your ability, and the other volunteer's essay boxes would NOT be filled with this. Simply compare the questionnaires at the end.

Ohh and you wish crow... ;0

Hah, another girl discriminating against me based on my lack of religious beliefs! If the tables were turned *I* would look like the jerk, right?

Sally

20th September 2006, 02:09 PM

I'm not sure whether the soldier family members or the addicts would be more stressed out, but either will work. My idea is simple, and the results would be more subjective than would be acceptable for the JREF prelim *but* it would be a 'good first step' towards proving you have this ability.

You'll need to be able to have 1on1 sessions with "patients" that do not already know you or know anything about your claimed ability. You will also need another volunteer doing the EXACT SAME sessions without you present.

You would simply need to create a questionnaire that asks important questions about the person's session (make the questions easy and the answers a simple 1-5 rating scale from 'satisfactory' to 'unsatisfactory') and the final question would have an OPTIONAL essay box and the title of the essay box would be "please describe how the person giving the session made you feel". It would be important that you not mention your ability (or religious beliefs for that matter) during the session.

Assuming you HAVE this ability, your essay boxes would be filled with the same words you might describe when talking about your ability, and the other volunteer's essay boxes would NOT be filled with this. Simply compare the questionnaires at the end.

You describe one of the exact sceniros in which I started to realize what was happening. I have had one on one talks with both soliders leaving for war and recovering addicts in extreme times of need. I do not bring the God talk into either of those situations (unless initatied by the other person). I have had both groups respond in very positive manners. The soliders clamed the sense of warmth of purpose of calmness in their mission. The recovering addicts have talked of the warmth and the strength they felt...

I would have to do a little work in preparing a questionarie and getting another participant to give the same questionarie but it could be easily done..

Hah, another girl discriminating against me based on my lack of religious beliefs! If the tables were turned *I* would look like the jerk, right?

How about this; I pray to my God that you will not "hit it" every night for a month, you pray to the flying spaghetti monster (or the atheist founder or whatever :) ) to "hit it" everynight for a month. lets see which God (or anti God) is real?

Sally

20th September 2006, 02:11 PM

First of all, I can't believe that worked.

Second, I am now prepared to say that Sally/Jada's description of her powers are entirely consistent with the normal reactions a person would have to a sympathetic, optimistic, pleasant-looking young girl.

Third, smile more in pictures.

First what worked?

Second of all talk to chill and towel and you get more of the face to face reactions I get... A little to big for this world..

Third, pray more :)

Crowbot

20th September 2006, 02:18 PM

How about this; I pray to my God that you will not "hit it" every night for a month, you pray to the flying spaghetti monster (or the atheist founder or whatever :) ) to "hit it" everynight for a month. lets see which God (or anti God) is real?

This statement makes me really question whether you watched the godisimaginary video on prayer being superstition that I sent you in a PM. You should know that I dont "pray", because praying is exactly the same as doing nothing. Prayer is exactly as effective as a lucky horseshoe.

Do you believe that you could actually prevent me from having sex for a month by praying to your god? That would be sufficient proof for me that he exists...

Sally

20th September 2006, 02:20 PM

This statement makes me really question whether you watched the godisimaginary video on prayer being superstition that I sent you in a PM. You should know that I dont "pray", because praying is exactly the same as doing nothing. Prayer is exactly as effective as a lucky horseshoe.

Do you believe that you could actually prevent me from having sex for a month by praying to your god? That would be sufficient proof for me that he exists...

Humor crowbot...Humor.

Hmm your lack of it may be what actually prevents you from "hitting it"

That above was another joke.. :)

IXP

20th September 2006, 02:22 PM

Crowbot

20th September 2006, 02:23 PM

Humor crowbot...Humor.

Humor eh? I'm only familiar with sarcasm... I can assure you though, without sarcasm, that your god could not prevent me from having sex for a month - nomatter how much or hard you prayed.

Crowbot

20th September 2006, 02:30 PM

This would not prove anything supernatural.

I didnt say it would. I simply stated that it would be a 'good first step' towards proving she has this ability. Do you disagree? Can you come up with a better 'good first step'?

Sally has come a long way from her original post in this thread. Seriously, go back and read her first 5 or so posts. I think she is making progress towards realizing that she does not in fact have any supernatural powers but that she is merely a very pleasant person who is good at helping people.

IXP

20th September 2006, 02:46 PM

I didnt say it would. I simply stated that it would be a 'good first step' towards proving she has this ability. Do you disagree? Can you come up with a better 'good first step'?

I don't doubt that she has this ability. Proving it does not add any useful information.

What we are trying to do is come up with a way than she can demonstrate a special connection to god (or not). I am reasonably certain that she cannot, since I don't even believe god exists. So proving a non-paranormal ability is just a distraction.

I think the next step is to let Sally come up with another means that she can demonstrate this connection and use our experience and knowledge to refine this to a test.

IXP

Ripley Twenty-Nine

20th September 2006, 02:51 PM

Just wanted to pop in and say that I'm enjoying this thread. Great discussions going on, and thanks for the pictures. ;)

Sally, you had asked before why so many different cultures throughout the world would come up with religion and a concept of God(s).

A hypothetical scenario. Imagine a bunch of small children abandoned on a desert island. They do not have any concept of a God whatsoever, and have no outside influence.. They certainly don't have any religious texts.

After growing up, how would these people explain how fruit grows on the trees? Where thunder and lightning comes from? Rainbows? Would they automatically assume there was a rational explanation for it, or would it be so amazing to them, that they would create the concept of a higher power, much greater than them?

Also, death. They would understand the concept of death, but they would find it difficult to accept that death is final. If there was a higher power great enough to create rainbows, provide them with food, give them water from the sky, wouldn't this higher power also let them live forever in eternal happiness after death? Surely when I die, when my friends die, they couldn't be just gone forever? The concept of Heaven doesn't make the thought of death so painful; It gives us an eternal purpose.

We fear death. We marvel at the wonders of the universe. Coming up with the concept of Gods is an easy way to explain the unexplainable. Trying to come up with real purpose and explanation for things, that's the tough part!

Plastictowel

20th September 2006, 03:03 PM

William Smith

20th September 2006, 04:54 PM

If y'all want to flirt, hop over to Forum Community and get bizee.

I'm all for human interaction, but I suggest we keep this thread related to the JREF Challenge.

Sally, what are you short term plans concerning getting ready for the Challenge?

Will you think things over a bit, let sink it in what happened yesterday?

timokay

20th September 2006, 05:06 PM

I came up with a test for someone to be able to sense her presence, was it not relevant?

William Smith

20th September 2006, 05:43 PM

I came up with a test for someone to be able to sense her presence, was it not relevant?

You and me both, buddy.

How about this for a home test. It's weak in areas but might be a good start.

You take your group of people, hopefully a dozen or so and you pray until you are convinced that God's presence is with you, then you sit one if them in a room facing the doorway with a pad of paper. Far enough so that you can't smell them, or get any sensory clues other than sight from the doorway. Try to notice if anyone breathes aloud, or makes unique noises.

Then stand in the doorway, and without making any other sounds, just knock once on the door, let the person on the chair see you, Sally, and then have them tell you if they can detect your spirit, or whatever you think makes your presence felt.

If they can, then one at a time, let each of member your group take a turn in the doorway, and have the person in the chair acknowledge that they either did, or did not sense anything.

Ok, if the person in the chair only sensed you, then blindfold the person, and randomly mix you into the hall group. Pick a number out of a hat or something, then, one at a time, and without making a sound, have everyone stand before the door, knock once, wait, and move on. Have the person in the chair make a mark on a piece of paper when they think they sensed you.

Then, and this is important, have everyone take a turn in the chair, they must first be able to sense you while seeing you in order to conduct the blindfolded part. You must do this 12 times (if you have 12 people) at the very least, more is better of course.

At the end, compare how many people sensed you and only you while blindfolded.

The weak parts of this test that I can see are:
Honesty of course, everyone must be dedicated to being quiet and not giving clues
Blindfolds can be very unreliable
Cues from sound, smell and other sensory indications.

A much better test would involve total strangers and sensory deprivation, but you need these people to sense you at all in the first place, and you have stated that this does happen all the time, so it may not be a problem.

Not every conversation, Sally.

Try your group again, for example. A short, quick test proposal for detecting "a presence" like you said via body functions:

1. Testees: Bring 5 believers, 5 non-believers.
2. Testers: You and another person.
3. Base Line Test with you. Check temperature, blood pressure, pulse. Note results.
4. Blindfold testees. Give them notepads to note results. No communication allowed.
5. You or the other person enter the room. Have a third party announce the entering.
6. Do several trials. Note results.
7. Check results.

This is as quick as I could off the top of my head. The controls need an upgrade, as well as the test itself. It will allow for an outline of what to expect with more rigorous testing.

Your thoughts, Sally?

Granted, Sally kinda declined to perform another test along the lines of what I (and Nucular and Gr8wight also, earlier) proposed.

That's why I inquired again, to keep the ball rolling.

steenkh

21st September 2006, 12:47 AM

To demonstrate any limited set of amazing things, and then claim that therefore everything else you say should be believed is an appeal to authority that skeptics simply won't agree to.
It is a question of credibility: Start by demonstrating just one amazing thing, and I might give up my skepticism of the rest.

steenkh

21st September 2006, 12:51 AM

Proving the existence of a deity is very specifically Not eligible for the JREF prize:
True, but the JREF does not care about explanations: just demonstrate something paranormal. If Sally can demonstrate that people feel a particular supernatural warmth when she is close, that might qualify, even though Sally believes it is a proof of God's existence.

But for safety, I also advice not to actually mention God in the application :)

William Smith

21st September 2006, 01:20 AM

...
But for safety, I also advice not to actually mention God in the application :)

Or any other imaginary friend. :D

Sally

21st September 2006, 06:36 AM

Okay I am still doing a lot of thinking...

I would like to continue in as best of a scientific approach to figure what exactly is going on. I have had to many people use the same types of words to describe the feelings of what is going on when I am around.

I am willing to approach this without talk of God right now and save that until I can somehow prove that something is going on.

I am still unsure of what the best way to continue is...

Sally

21st September 2006, 06:39 AM

You and me both, buddy.

Granted, Sally kinda declined to perform another test along the lines of what I (and Nucular and Gr8wight also, earlier) proposed.

That's why I inquired again, to keep the ball rolling.

Why I declined is because of the first failure.

I am trying to work a new approach something that introduces stress (keeping safety in mind) in the mix. I think if I can prove to be a physically calming element we are on the right road.

Stress raises blood pressure and heart rates usually if I can calm them more than another person at least I have proven this is not all in my head...and that is a start to figure if I have a testable claim...

Sally

21st September 2006, 07:27 AM

Sally, quit discussing me. I'm getting far too lazy to keep reading this "million dollar challenge" thread, my initial point was you'd fail your preliminary test. you did. So when you actually pass a test, get my attention then.

and from my Private message box

Calm down sally

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"well for the most part, but I assume anyone with a large nose and curly pubic hair on there head to quite possible be a.... "

Means a "Jew."
I was being sarcastic, I don't know how you take that as an insult.

I made assumption to you commenting on my physical appearance because five posts before yours chillzero was talking about my wide nose. I do apologies for my assumption I am a little up tight on my looks...

Now I see from your private message your are just a plain racist. Please do NOT private message me again. I have no need for your type in my life.

Ashles

21st September 2006, 07:34 AM

Sally

21st September 2006, 08:23 AM

Sally I'd just ignore Plastictowel from now on, his comments are getting pretty abusive and aren't really furthering the discussion.

I'm interested as to whether you have given any more thought to what you think about the millions of people who believe in alien visitations on earth.

I have given it thought. Being a person that does not believe in alien visitations (but one who is actually open to the possibility of alien species in other galaxies).

I find it kind of goes along the lines that people use to believe all sorts of things about something that can not be explained. Without telescopes or space travel you look up into the heavens and can come up with all sorts of ideas of why stars sparkle, the sun sets, the moon glows..etc.... As science has advances things have been explained away. For some the possibilty of other life forms still is in the realm of unexplained. That we as earthlings dont have all the answers yet.

I see your point that if you take someone completely unfamiliar with earthlings (an alien visiter perhaps HA!) and have someone sit down and explain that a lot of what goes on in life is caused by alien life forms..that these life forms have visited people....there is proof in crop circles, in blurry photos, in abduction stories... Than I sit down and explain to them that God is the purpose we are all here proof is seen in his miracles of life, the written word of prophets, etc...

They both seem exactly as sane and as crazy. I still feel I am set on a path that a presence is with me, I can not discount that but I can continue to question things in my mind...

Crowbot

21st September 2006, 09:55 AM

They both seem exactly as sane and as crazy. I still feel I am set on a path that a presence is with me, I can not discount that but I can continue to question things in my mind...

Why do you feel you can not discount this presence within you, when you have been completely unable to prove it? That certainly isnt using "an open mind", now is it? You're being completely close-minded to the POSSIBILITY that all of your religious mumbo jumbo is just in your head - even when facing the reality of your inability to do anything supernatural.

As skeptics we have open minds to the unexplained, we simply ask to be given objective testable proof. Proof which has yet to surface and take the million dollar prize, regardless of ALL the absurd claims being made throughout the world (god, UFO's, psychics, homeopathy, ghosts, etc). In our eyes your claim does not seem to hold any more water than any of the others, Sally. Try looking at things from our point of view.

Sally

21st September 2006, 10:36 AM

Why do you feel you can not discount this presence within you, when you have been completely unable to prove it? That certainly isnt using "an open mind", now is it? You're being completely close-minded to the POSSIBILITY that all of your religious mumbo jumbo is just in your head - even when facing the reality of your inability to do anything supernatural.

As skeptics we have open minds to the unexplained, we simply ask to be given objective testable proof. Proof which has yet to surface and take the million dollar prize, regardless of ALL the absurd claims being made throughout the world (god, UFO's, psychics, homeopathy, ghosts, etc). In our eyes your claim does not seem to hold any more water than any of the others, Sally. Try looking at things from our point of view.

My hopes is to find a way to prove it.

If I show my physical presence has a calming affect on someone than I know something is going on. We can than continue into the discussion of what exactly is it and how does it happen...

That is why at this point I am trying to leave God out of discussion of what type of testing I need to do...

Nucular

21st September 2006, 10:50 AM

Sally

21st September 2006, 10:56 AM

Sally, I've forgotten whether this has already been answered, but do you think your calming effect can take place with no interaction between you and the stressed person? Like, could your presence in a room behind a screen still have a calming effect?

Currently I have my doubts.

I can think of now instances in which I did not speak, touch or at least look at the person to feel the affect and have them feel the affect...

DrRock

21st September 2006, 11:44 AM

I can think of now instances in which I did not speak, touch or at least look at the person to feel the affect and have them feel the affect...

Given this statement, I think there is no hope of designing a satisfactory test for this claim.

Dr Rock

Plastictowel

21st September 2006, 12:24 PM

And that is why God has led me to you Mr. Towel. Your life is soon to be truely blessed I feel this deeply right now and know you are one of the ones God has spoken to me about.

I see Gods given up on me now, because I'm racist to the jews(which I'm not), but you saying the muslims will go to hell is totally calm and collected.

chillzero

21st September 2006, 12:47 PM

I made assumption to you commenting on my physical appearance because five posts before yours chillzero was talking about my wide nose. I do apologies for my assumption I am a little up tight on my looks...

Can I just clarify something here, because I am concerned at the way you keep lumping my name with plastictowel's.

I looked at the link you posted.
I do not pre-judge anybody by their beliefs, lifestyle, anything I might know about them from what they claim on a website. I had no preconceptions as to what you might look like.
I looked at the page and saw what look to me like different people, so I asked a perfectly legitimate question.
I did not call you fat, I did not remark on how wide a nose you have. I made clear my reasons for thinking these photos were of different people by using comparitive language. The nose in some photos looks wider than in others. Would you still be so offended if I had said 'narrower nose' on the other photo? Because it means the same thing.

I was not flaming you. I was not being defamatory or insulting.

I have a skeptical mind, and therefore am never disposed to immediately accept as truth a claim such as these being a poster's actual photos. I have reasons for why my suspicions were raised, but they don't matter. I seem to be in the minority, so didn't intend raising the issue again, until you referred to me several times in the same sentence as plastictowel as if I have mortally insulted you. It was not my intention.

I just wanted to clear that up.

IXP

21st September 2006, 12:52 PM

chillzero

21st September 2006, 12:57 PM

chillzero,

Some advice, never, ever comment on the apperance of a female in such a way that it can be construed as a negative!

By the way, I looked as the 3 pictures you linked to, and if you look at the eyebrows you will see that they are almost certainly the same person.

IXP

Oh, please. As a female myself, I think that was a perfectly reasonable way to compare the pictures.

As a female, I also know how eyebrows are just about the most easily re-shaped part of the face. There are several female artists on the go now - same hairdo, same eyebrow shapes and same style makeup - almost impossible to tell apart (apart from the cheekbones, and mouth shapes).

eta: anyway - never mind, I had no intention of derailing the thread either.

Sally

21st September 2006, 01:04 PM

Can I just clarify something here, because I am concerned at the way you keep lumping my name with plastictowel's.

I looked at the link you posted.
I do not pre-judge anybody by their beliefs, lifestyle, anything I might know about them from what they claim on a website. I had no preconceptions as to what you might look like.
I looked at the page and saw what look to me like different people, so I asked a perfectly legitimate question.
I did not call you fat, I did not remark on how wide a nose you have. I made clear my reasons for thinking these photos were of different people by using comparitive language. The nose in some photos looks wider than in others. Would you still be so offended if I had said 'narrower nose' on the other photo? Because it means the same thing.

I was not flaming you. I was not being defamatory or insulting.

I have a skeptical mind, and therefore am never disposed to immediately accept as truth a claim such as these being a poster's actual photos. I have reasons for why my suspicions were raised, but they don't matter. I seem to be in the minority, so didn't intend raising the issue again, until you referred to me several times in the same sentence as plastictowel as if I have mortally insulted you. It was not my intention.

I just wanted to clear that up.

First thank you for the clairty on that.

And secondly I apologize for flying off the handle. I was a little up tight about posting it and guess I was assuming the worse so read into things with that type of thought process.

I know way meant to put you in the same catergory as plastictowel was just already on edge by your response when he came out of left field at me. So used you as the scapegoat for being on edge. That was not right of me.

Anyways I have put the offensive on perment ignore and would like to keep this thread on track the best we can...

fromdownunder

21st September 2006, 04:45 PM

Sally, (trust me, I have been following the whole thread), I am not sure what a stress test would show. Many people can calm others down in a stressful situation - I have done it myself, and on one occasion I judged that it needed to be done with feigned anger (thank the IPU, it worked).

I have also reduced stress within myself when I have felt stressed simply by playing my favourite music. (Since you ask, early Elton John, Swan Lake or Judy Garland works for me)

This may be temporary, but it does work. You would need to somehow demonstrate that in whatever agreed percentage of cases, that you have been able to achieve something that no one else could achieve using perfectly normal empathy (that most people have), or other external stimulus, like music.

Just food for thought - I am not trying to knock the direction you are going in with this, I just think that it may lead to a box canyon.

Norm

Nucular

22nd September 2006, 07:00 AM

Hi FromDownUnder, yes I agree with you that in such a test we'd have to be very, very careful to ensure that any effects observed were not 'normal'; as you point out, many things calm people down, even sometimes paradoxical things.

This was one of the reasons I asked Sally earlier whether she might be able to achieve the effect without any interaction of any worldly kind - sadly, she doesn't think that will be possible.

This is something that can't really be double-blinded easily, therefore - Sally knows who she is, and so comparing her performance to that of anybody else, who will of course know that they're not Sally, could be purely down to Sally being better or worse at this sort of thing than the others. If there was some way of separating Sally from the actual proceedings, whether through intermediaries (perhaps she has the ability to consciously 'charge' other people with the power?) or through performing her ability unseen as suggested, there would be a way forward; but this seems unlikely based on Sally's own understanding of how this all works.

I know Sally wishes to leave God out of this, so I apologise in advance for this observation... but I have to admit, though as I've mentioned before I completely accept that Sally is genuine in her belief and willingness to put specific claims to the test, that God seems to be working in even more mysterious ways here than usual. For an omnipotent being who has clearly stated to Sally that He wishes to bring sceptics and scientists back into line by demonstrating His existence to them, He does seem to be rather stuck for ideas. And if I may say, is being a little cruel to Sally, whom He has asked to help Him out in this matter, but seems to be allowing her to grope a little blindly for what He actually wants her to do.

I think if I were Sally, I'd be feeling a little cross.

PS, FWIW Sally, I thought you looked very nice in the photos you linked to :) Although not quite as I expected you to look in my unconsciously-developed stereotype ;)

Cuddles

22nd September 2006, 09:04 AM

This is something that can't really be double-blinded easily, therefore - Sally knows who she is, and so comparing her performance to that of anybody else, who will of course know that they're not Sally, could be purely down to Sally being better or worse at this sort of thing than the others.

And of course this leads to the problem that if the other person is as good, or better, than Sally it could just mean god is working through them as well. If we assume that god has not chosen Sally as the only person it will work through, I don't see any way of distinguishing between two people who are both good at calming people and two people who both bring god's peace.

William Smith

22nd September 2006, 09:16 AM

This post may contain humourous elements to highlight specific aims. However, I meant it strictly in a constructive way to help you prove or disprove your claim, Sally.

Since at least three posters in this thread alone had to buy new keyboards after drool overkill, I suggest you eliminate the variables linked with your possibly interfering appearance during test simply like this:

1. No facial cosmetics whatsoever (eyeliner, lipstick, eyebrowplucking, lotions, etc.).
2. No cleavage, legs or arms shown. Wear something which does not allow to identify your figure, ideally even suggests too much girth. (A mumu, any wide overall or dungarees with a 4XL sweater.)
3. (Very) Lax bodily cleanliness. (No deodorant, no showering for at least two days although you exercised, no cleaning of nails, no brushing of teeth, etc.)

I think you get the point, Sally, right? I do not suggest you follow these suggestions down to the last iota.

If you feel very strong and confident about yourself and the "presence" you have described here, you could try approaching others along the lines I suggested and see what happens. Also, add a good garlic breath.

If "God will through me make his presence known for all to see, (...) God is speaking through me..., then this should not depend on your physique, should it?

(Sally, if you were a dude, I'd suggested far more rigid uglifications: All the garlic, onions, beans and beer you can ingest; at least 2 weeks no showering + same clothes all the way + more bodily fluids soaked in clothes; loud burping and farting during sessions with the group along with lots of scratching of assal and crotchal area.)

IXP

22nd September 2006, 10:02 AM

Gruz,

That's the best idea yet. Going underground as a shapeless, smelly street person. I would further suggest a Burqa.

IXP

Sally

22nd September 2006, 10:02 AM

I get what you are going for gzuz and trust me I can look pretty haggard after a late night bartending the next morning at work. I got the bad breath the dark circles under the eyes..the whole nine...I still have had some very pleasent experiences with our patients...

I am doing another event for our soliders this weekend it usually ends up I have a few good one on one conversations with these men being deployed I am going to continue to try to give them the strength they need but approach the mindset a bit differently ..I am just curious on how that will affect my interactions.

And thanks for the drool thing .... I think.... trust me I aint all that...

Sally

22nd September 2006, 10:09 AM

Ririon

22nd September 2006, 10:30 AM

William Smith

22nd September 2006, 10:38 AM

Gruz,

That's the best idea yet. Going underground as a shapeless, smelly street person. I would further suggest a Burqa.

IXP

IPX, thought about that too, then rejected it. Kinda might contradict the whole christian thing, n'est-ce pas?

IXP

22nd September 2006, 10:44 AM

BDD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder)
...but people suffering from BDD, otherwise considered normal, believe that they are so unspeakably hideous that they are unable to interact with others or function normally for fear of ridicule and humiliation at their appearence.

I don't think so.

IXP

IXP

22nd September 2006, 10:45 AM

IPX, thought about that too, then rejected it. Kinda might contradict the whole christian thing, n'est-ce pas?
I was attempting irony, based on her statements that Muslims have forsaken god.

IXP

William Smith

22nd September 2006, 11:00 AM

So are we approaching an application that I can affect levels of stress simply by the outfits I choose :)

Perhaps I will be dressing more conservately for this weekends work now that autumn is upon us. Plus in the name of science..but I really think you guys are barking up the wrong tree...

I'm kinda shaken here:

Sally, either you're still fishing for compliments, which is pretty understandable generally, but does not help your application (or your credibility as someone investigating her paranormal powers) and simply derails the thread. Check out Forum Community http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=26 for your flirting needs.

Or, which I very seriously doubt, you may simply know not very much about human and especially male perception and play coy.

Or, you are indeed as you suggested earlier "completely off the deep end". But I also doubt that.

On a sidenote: If you think "God will through [you] make his presence known for all to see" via your female physique, I consider that most definitely not paranormal. :) Boobal attraction is as normal as it gets for heterosexual homo sapiens sapiens. And for some sapphic trafficerettes, too.

William Smith

22nd September 2006, 11:01 AM

I was attempting irony, based on her statements that Muslims have forsaken god.

IXP

That irony was obviously wasted on me, again. :)

Sally

22nd September 2006, 11:14 AM

I'm kinda shaken here:

Sally, either you're still fishing for compliments, which is pretty understandable generally, but does not help your application (or your credibility as someone investigating her paranormal powers) and simply derails the thread. Check out Forum Community http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=26 for your flirting needs.

Or, which I very seriously doubt, you may simply know not very much about human and especially male perception and play coy.

Or, you are indeed as you suggested earlier "completely off the deep end". But I also doubt that.

On a sidenote: If you think "God will through [you] make his presence known for all to see" via your female physique, I consider that most definitely not paranormal. :) Boobal attraction is as normal as it gets for heterosexual homo sapiens sapiens. And for some sapphic trafficerettes, too.

Or I am attempting a bit of humor and am really am more average than would appear. It has been my life to always be the 'chubby gal" so I am used to those types of reactions.

A compliment though is always nice and does make me smile but you are correct and I will keep fishing for those to a more approprate board.

On the application front:

I plan to try to re-gage what exactly I feel and others feel this weekend. I will be in a stressful situation and its is often times where I do feel His work coming through me. If the opportunity presents itself I would like to explore deeper if a relative stranger does remark on feeling calm and warm...

Also in the interest of science (and respect to the families) all cleavage will be firmly packed away during this weekend ;) ...I will let you guys know what I come up with on monday.

RenaissanceBiker

22nd September 2006, 11:21 AM

Also in the interest of science (and respect to the families) all cleavage will be firmly packed away during this weekend ;) ...I will let you guys know what I come up with on monday.

Way to go, GzuzKryzt.:cool:

William Smith

22nd September 2006, 11:24 AM

Or I am attempting a bit of humor and am really am more average than would appear. It has been my life to always be the 'chubby gal" so I am used to those types of reactions.

A compliment though is always nice and does make me smile but you are correct and I will keep fishing for those to a more approprate board.

On the application front:

I plan to try to re-gage what exactly I feel and others feel this weekend. I will be in a stressful situation and its is often times where I do feel His work coming through me. If the opportunity presents itself I would like to explore deeper if a relative stranger does remark on feeling calm and warm...

Also in the interest of science (and respect to the families) all cleavage will be firmly packed away during this weekend ;) ...I will let you guys know what I come up with on monday.

Fair enough.

(Although the second to last paragraph got at least half a dozen double entendres.)