Challenge Application Proving existence of God

[Sally]

Hi Everyone,

I have been lurking around here for some time in hopes of finding the best way to appy for the challenge. Since I am still in the dark on how to do so I am coming here for advice.

A little background to me:

When I was a young child of the age of 5 I was hit by a car travelling at a good rate of speed...being thrown for a distance my head collided with the pavement and pushed me into a blackout (near death) for a few hours. During that time I was overwhelmed with a feeling of peacefullness and sense of purpose a brightness filled the space around me and I felt a power much more amazing than I.

As I grew and learned I knew I was in the presence of God during my time away from the world I have used this experience to reclaim a connection with God and have the ability to receive guidence from Him. He has truely guided my life and has led me to various encounters with unbelievers (which is how I ended up here) The full purpose of His work is still coming into light but I now know enough that He is ready through me to disprove the nonbelievers I know that randi's challenge is part of this.

God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me...

[GzuzKryzt]

Hi Everyone,

I have been lurking around here for some time in hopes of finding the best way to appy for the challenge. Since I am still in the dark on how to do so I am coming here for advice.

A little background to me:

When I was a young child of the age of 5 I was hit by a car travelling at a good rate of speed...being thrown for a distance my head collided with the pavement and pushed me into a blackout (near death) for a few hours. During that time I was overwhelmed with a feeling of peacefullness and sense of purpose a brightness filled the space around me and I felt a power much more amazing than I.

As I grew and learned I knew I was in the presence of God during my time away from the world I have used this experience to reclaim a connection with God and have the ability to receive guidence from Him. He has truely guided my life and has led me to various encounters with unbelievers (which is how I ended up here) The full purpose of His work is still coming into light but I now know enough that He is ready through me to disprove the nonbelievers I know that randi's challenge is part of this.

God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me...


Welcome Sally.

As far as I know, the JREF does not test for deities because the claim cannot be falsified.

It may help your application if you could state precisely what you claim, how you will demonstrate it, what means a successful proof of this demonstration or a failure thereof.

[Cuddles]

God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me...

If you wish to mke a claim, you have to come up with the claim, you can't expect us to come up with one for you.

[SkepticScott]

God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me...You have to give a testable demonstration. Do something paranormal, know something that can't be known by ordinary means, anything, as long as you can objectively succeed or fail at it.

For example, I just randomly selected a word from the Diceware Word List (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diceware). If you were to tell me what it is -- without guessing, or feedback from me, or any means that I could use to get such a word from you -- that would be evidence of a paranormal ability. Once you demonstrate that you have an ability, then we can start investigating how and why.

It would still be a huge leap to go from "I have a special ability" to "God exists", but I'd love to see someone prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists.

[CoreyWhite]

I believe you, and you are not alone. But that doesn't mean we are going to be able to prove this to skeptics. Ultimately skepticism is a legitimate world-view, distinct from buddhism, and christianity or any other paradigm. They have equal rights under the law, to believe in skepticism. And if they want to preach to people, then they are allowed to. Just like Christians can preach the bible. But in my opinion, its a mistake to be as defiant and active as JREF is. Trying to debunk religions is a mistake. It is like a christian preaching to a muslim. And I feel they are doing as much to repress scientific thought, as they are doing to inspire scientists to think outside of the box.

[Nucular]

Yes, God ought to know really that Randi explicitly states in his FAQ that proving His existence isn't what the challenge is there for.

But if God can work through you to do something of a paranormal nature, ask Him what it will be, and then you can submit a normal application. As someone else stated, this is unlikely to be considered by anyone to be proof of Go'd existence, but hey, it might be a good start.

Welcome, btw.

[Nucular]

I believe you, and you are not alone. But that doesn't mean we are going to be able to prove this to skeptics. Ultimately skepticism is a legitimate world-view, distinct from buddhism, and christianity or any other paradigm. They have equal rights under the law, to believe in skepticism. And if they want to preach to people, then they are allowed to. Just like Christians can preach the bible. But in my opinion, its a mistake to be as defiant and active as JREF is. Trying to debunk religions is a mistake. It is like a christian preaching to a muslim. And I feel they are doing as much to repress scientific thought, as they are doing to inspire scientists to think outside of the box.

How is the JREF repressing scientific thought, Corey?

Why is it a mistake to be "defiant and active", if this is what the JREF is?

[Pup]

The full purpose of His work is still coming into light but I now know enough that He is ready through me to disprove the nonbelievers I know that randi's challenge is part of this.

God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me...

It sounds like your god is pretty willing and flexible. Pick any of the previously-accepted challengers, who took the preliminary test and failed. Propose the exact same protocol, take the test, and succeed.

It won't prove that god did it, rather than some other power, but if you win the million, it'll sure give you a bully pulpit to preach from.

[CoreyWhite]

No one likes being preached to, or lectured. It is like reverse psychology. If you fly over to China, there are science activists who are killing each other over the fact that some scientists are being repressed by skeptics. I don't think we need to go there in the USA. And I don't like the psychological effect of James Randi having a million dollars.

I remember once a friend of mine manipulated me with a fake million dollar bill. He bet me the million that I would stop hiccupping, and I immediately stopped. Not a single hiccup after he showed it to me. Strange right?

[Crowbot]

No one likes being preached to, or lectured. It is like reverse psychology. If you fly over to China, there are science activists who are killing each other over the fact that some scientists are being repressed by skeptics. I don't think we need to go there in the USA. And I don't like the psychological effect of James Randi having a million dollars.


James Randi does not have a million dollars. He isnt walking around with a monopoly guy monocle and a top hat dangling a million dollar carrot in front of religious fanatics then jerking it out of reach when they go for it. He started a foundation which offers a simple CHALLENGE to prove the existence of paranormality (god being classified as paranormal...duh!).

It's quite simple really - put up or shut up. Religious folks seem to do neither, though.

[Plastictowel]

James Randi does not have a million dollars. He isnt walking around with a monopoly guy monocle and a top hat dangling a million dollar carrot in front of religious fanatics then jerking it out of reach when they go for it. He started a foundation which offers a simple CHALLENGE to prove the existence of paranormality (god being classified as paranormal...duh!).

It's quite simple really - put up or shut up. Religious folks seem to do neither, though.

Actually they do A LOT of shutting up, when asked to put up.

And who has the nerve to argue that Asians kill each other over science, I think someone forgot to read about the crusades in his lower school history book.

[Beleth]

Hi Everyone,

God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me...
Hi, Sally, and welcome!

I suggest reading the FAQ, especially section 2, with particular attention to section 2.5 (http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#2.5).

I can't speak for anyone else here, but as far as convincing me that God is speaking through you, well, He knows what will convince me, because I have told Him (and only Him) numerous times. In fact, I am reminding Him right now, as I type this. So all you have to do is your part in what will convince me.

[Plastictowel]

It's amazing that God only gets that in depth with one person, as opposed to oh...everyone.
Maybe the car accident made you realize your own mortality, and now that you're aware, you're so scared of death, you take it in as "peace and gods will."
Maybe.

[The Kilted Yaksman]

Actually they do A LOT of shutting up, when asked to put up.

And who has the nerve to argue that Asians kill each other over science, I think someone forgot to read about the crusades in his lower school history book.
For some reason Corey seems to be equating skeptics with the repressive authoritarian governement of China. I wonder where that came from? :confused:

[IXP]

God will through me make his presence known for all to see...
Hi Sally,

What makes you think you can succeed in this when Jesus Christ and Mohammed both failed?

IXP

[Plastictowel]

Maybe she doesn't intend to force enemas up small childrens butts like Mohammed? I know that was a downfall...but tell us, will you be sleeping naked with children and despising africans, like Mohammed?

[Rasmus]

God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me...

This weekend's numbers to be drawn in the German national lottery, in my PMs, no later than Friday, 6pm (GMT+1)

You ask your God for the numbers and let me have them by the time stated. It's not sufficient proof, but my minimum standard for a first step thereof. As soon as the money is in my account I will work for you - full time and without further compensation - for at least 5 years helping you to prove whatever you desire to whoever you chose to prove it to.

Deal?

[Sally]

I am not talking palour tricks people. Gods will is not to give lottery numbers find metal under a cup or read peoples mind. God is love and God is forgiveness.

I am asking the deepest and most outright skeptics to tell me what would prove that God is in all of our lives not that I can do a cool trick and claim God did it. I am smarter than that and it will not bring in the critical thinkers as believers.

Edit:
Here is one of the lines I was thinking on. Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity...

[Plastictowel]

I know what you can do!!!
Answer this impossible question!

http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

But regardless, I have a question, if God assisted in writing the bible, and in "earlier times" had no problem making his presence known, how come in the past years he only trys to express himself through one person??? As opposed to showing himself to everyone?

[Sally]

God only works through true believers today in a world of infideles and skeptics a true believer is a hard person to find.

And the sarcasm of your site is not appreciated by any. Jokes are no way to have an intelligent conversation over life and death matters...

[Plastictowel]

Uhm Sally start here
http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/god5.htm
there is NOTHING sarcastic about it.
Rude.

[Gavan]

Sally what would it take to prove to you that God doesn't exist?

[Sally]

God is overfilling my cup you can not empty Him out of me. I do not need any more proof one way or another.

[Crowbot]

Here is one of the lines I was thinking on. Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity...

Sally,

I think this is a great idea. Please immediately drop whatever you are doing and report to Iraq and DO THIS VERY THING YOU DESCRIBE. People there could really use that kind of help, and yet, here you are talking pointlessly on an internet messageboard while people suffer.

Shame on you for even trying to convince others that you have this kind of power and for some reason choose to hold it back. You disgust me.

[Plastictowel]

Overfilling your cup eh....I worked at a Firehouse subs once, so I was allowed free re-fills...does that count for the million dollars?

[Sally]

God works through the power of belief he can not save the muslim world therefore Iraq is a destined to be forever lost.

My power will work with believers with Christians that truely know what God brings to peoples life. I hope I can provide this healing to many of the african nations...but I must have the resources and tools to do such hence my interest in the challenge..

[Sally]

Overfilling your cup eh....I worked at a Firehouse subs once, so I was allowed free re-fills...does that count for the million dollars?

I will be ignoring you and your insenstivity to this serious subject matter from this time on.

[Gavan]

God is omnipotent Sally. If he can't save the Muslim world then he is not God.

[Genesius]

God works through the power of belief he can not save the muslim world therefore Iraq is a destined to be forever lost.

My power will work with believers with Christians that truely know what God brings to peoples life. I hope I can provide this healing to many of the african nations...but I must have the resources and tools to do such hence my interest in the challenge..

It's a shame that your God is so feeble that He can only have an effect on believers. You'd think the creator of the Universe could make his existence known to anyone.

[Plastictowel]

Since when did blessing people, and praising the word of the lord require money? I don't think Jesus was a rich man now was he? And what kind of ignorance says all muslims are destined to be lost, you do realize part of the 9/11 attacks are Muslim extremeist saying the exact same ignorance you're preaching, just about Christianity?
Man....this is just sad.

[Sally]

He warned me that it would be a tough road and the skeptics would be a spiteful bunch.

I am ready to stand this test of faith my 22 years of working with his power has prepared me.

The point is to bring his presence to the true non-believers other groups have forsaken He and will suffer a very unfortunte fate for doing so.

[Plastictowel]

So if non-believers are lost, what exactly are you trying to do, since it can't be convert non-believers, you already stated they are lost.

[Genesius]

He warned me that it would be a tough road and the skeptics would be a spiteful bunch.

I am ready to stand this test of faith my 22 years of working with his power has prepared me.

The point is to bring his presence to the true non-believers other groups have forsaken He and will suffer a very unfortunte fate for doing so.

How can you bring his prescence to non-believers if your power only "will work with believers with Christians that truely know what God brings to peoples life. "

[Plastictowel]

Genesius lets just be happy that thanks to her wisdom the question of Gods gender has been answered, she refered to "he"

[Sally]

He gets his power through belief I need believers around me to help exetuate his presence to PROVE to the stupid nonbelievers that GOD IS LOVE!

Plastic towel this is not a game please stop pretending it is.

[IXP]

God will through me make his presence known for all to see,God will through me make his presence known for all to see,


God works through the power of belief he can not save the muslim world

God only works through true believers today in a world of infideles and skeptics a true believer is a hard person to find.

So "all", apparently does not include skeptics or Muslims. In fact, "all" only includes true Christian believers.

That's different, your revised claim is that all true Chrisitian believers will believe that god is present in you.

The revised claim is hereby rejected as being an argument of the circular variety.

IXP

p.s. Whose sock puppet are you?

[Crowbot]

So Sally, if your god only works through the power of belief, am I then exempt from your god's powers?

Also Sally, are you aware that there are 1.3 million Christians living in Iraq? Granted, they only represent 5.2% of the population...but 1.3 million people seems like a lot to completely ignore and consider "lost" because the majority of people in Iraq are Muslim. Oh but i'm sure your god has his reasons...reasons he's only made available to YOU...right?

[Plastictowel]

I know it's not a game, but you just dodge my good points and only fiddle with the humor. How dare I apply humor!
By the way, god gets his "power" through the believers, Birdman gets his through the sun!

[Sally]

I know the Iraq war is part of God's plan. I have been told that this will forever punish all those that forsake him.

[Plastictowel]

If you're trying to gather believers, what the hell are you doing here?

[Genesius]

He gets his power through belief I need believers around me to help exetuate his presence to PROVE to the stupid nonbelievers that GOD IS LOVE!

Plastic towel this is not a game please stop pretending it is.

OK, so let's say we go to a church and collect 20-30 true believers. They can stand around you, as close as you like. Now, with the power of all those believers, what can you do to PROVE his existence to us "stupid nonbelievers."

And if God gets His power from believers, where did he get the power to create the Heavens and the Earth? No believers around back then. . .

[Crowbot]

I know the Iraq war is part of God's plan. I have been told that this will forever punish all those that forsake him.

Clearly he is ALSO punishing the 1.3 MILLION Christians living in Iraq also. Can you offer any reasoning as to why your god is punishing the very people that believe in him?

[Sally]

Believers are all around us in the American world. I am asking what the presence of true believers can do to show the non believers true existence of tthe higher power that is God.

[Genesius]

Clearly he is ALSO punishing the 1.3 MILLION Christians living in Iraq also. Can you offer any reasoning as to why your god is punishing the very people that believe in him?

Obviously they're not True Believers, since if they were God wouldn't be punishing them.

So they have no one to blame but themselves.

:rolleyes:

[Sally]

Clearly he is ALSO punishing the 1.3 MILLION Christians living in Iraq also. Can you offer any reasoning as to why your god is punishing the very people that believe in him?


The believers will be given the gift of everlasting life in heaven. How is that punishment?

[eri]

Sally, in order to apply for the Challenge, you need to have a testable, demonstratable proof of supernatural ability. While making the war stop is certainly laudable, it may not be supernatural. So, let's find something supernatural you can do. Look for something easily testable right now, not something grandiose that involves large amounts of money.

So, what can you do?

[Gavan]

He gets his power through belief I need believers around me to help exetuate his presence to PROVE to the stupid nonbelievers that GOD IS LOVE!

Plastic towel this is not a game please stop pretending it is.



Sally do you honestly think that you can come to a forum such as this, spout this sort of drivel and expect people to blindly follow you?

Yes, this is a game, and will continue to be so until people like you can answer simple questions such as "What would it take to disprove the existence of God to you?". Until this time can I suggest that you find yourself a good site on logic fallacies and have a read.

Signed

stupid nonbeliever.

[Sally]

My presence can be a source of love and understanding. God shines his light through me and brings peace to those around me...that is what I can do.

[Genesius]

Believers are all around us in the American world. I am asking what the presence of true believers can do to show the non believers true existence of tthe higher power that is God.

How about you answer my questions. . .?

OK, so let's say we go to a church and collect 20-30 true believers. They can stand around you, as close as you like. Now, with the power of all those believers, what can you do to PROVE his existence to us "stupid nonbelievers."

And if God gets His power from believers, where did he get the power to create the Heavens and the Earth? No believers around back then. . .

[Plastictowel]

He gave Moses the power to split the red sea, jesus to turn water into wine, and heal the blind, but all he gives you is "thoughts"

Someone has an Imaginary friend, that's cute.

[Genesius]

My presence can be a source of love and understanding. God shines his light through me and brings peace to those around me...that is what I can do.

But only to those who already believe as you do, right? Everybody else is SOL.

[Plastictowel]

My presence can be a source of love and understanding. God shines his light through me and brings peace to those around me...that is what I can do.

Yeah we can clearly see that, since it hasn't worked on one of us.

[eri]

So, if we had a pitch-black room full of people, all those people would be able to tell if you were present in the room through the 'love and understanding' that you bring with you? They would be able to sense your presence?

[fishbait]

Here is one of the lines I was thinking on. Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity...If your god is so omnipotent why do you limit "shining your light" on only one small part of the world? Why do you have to go there to do it? Why not just shine your light on the whole world from where you are? If your god is who you claim he is, the effect will be evident to everyone. Go ahead, shine your light on the whole world and stop the suffering. No need for a test protocol. Do it now.

We're waiting.

[Sally]

It only happens when people believe in God. They see the light in me and know He is present within me any anger, worry, doubt fades away immediately.

[Genesius]

My presence can be a source of love and understanding. God shines his light through me and brings peace to those around me...that is what I can do.
Yeah we can clearly see that, since it hasn't worked on one of us.

Obviously Sally doesn't have enough believers around her right now for God to use as His Heavenly Battery Pack.

[Sally]

It is not a light as in a lightbuld it is an inner glow. People we feel the warmth and love in a darkened room but not see anythign with there human eyes.

[Crowbot]

The believers will be given the gift of everlasting life in heaven. How is that punishment?

How is it fair that they must live in one of the worst war torn countries in the world (using your own words), and YOU get to live in america safe and sound from the radical muslim extremists that threaten their lives daily? Do they get better rewards in heaven? Their lives, when compared to yours for example (assuming you're an american with enough financial income to afford internet access and enough free time to argue with me), certainly seem like punishment to me.

I think you SHOULD go to Iraq and try to prove your powers Sally. Except the only thing you would get in Iraq is raped and killed...

[Plastictowel]

If they already are believers why do they have to see God in you? They clearly already see God...Nothing you are saying makes sense. Just goto church and hang out with the rest of the "non idiots."

[Rasmus]

I am not talking palour tricks people. Gods will is not to give lottery numbers find metal under a cup or read peoples mind. God is love and God is forgiveness.

Bullcrap.

God is allegedly omnipotent and omniscient. Lotterynumbers are one damn good way of proving that an entitiy has those attributes.

I am asking the deepest and most outright skeptics to tell me what would prove that God is in all of our lives not that I can do a cool trick and claim God did it. I am smarter than that and it will not bring in the critical thinkers as believers.

Any entitiy that wants me to belive thast they are God had better be able to perform simply parlour tricks before I waste my tinme with further consideration.

You have the nerve to come in here and suggest that you could show me that God exists. You are actually arrogant enough to ask of me that I should believe you can do what is not only rationally impossible, but what others have failed to do for the past few thousand years.

Not only do you make the laughable claim that you could do this, at the same time you need us puny sceptics to tell you howe to do it? Go ask your friggin God what would convince me if my standards aren't good enough for you.

Edit:
Here is one of the lines I was thinking on. Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity...

You claim you can do that and instead you spend time on an internet forum? You could end wars, and instead of at least stopping one, tiny insignificant war you waste my time and other peoples live - in the name of a god of love?

No, it would not convince me - but that convincing me would bem ore important to you than ending a war tells me all I'll ever need to know about you, your god and the kind of love you two allegedly stand for.

[eri]

Wait, wait, we're working our way up to a protocal here. So, if we had a room full of people who claimed they believed in God, and they were asked 10 times about 5 min apart whether or not you were also in the room, they would all be able to answer correctly, not to mention give the same answer?

[Genesius]

Wait, wait, we're working our way up to a protocal here. So, if we had a room full of people who claimed they believed in God, and they were asked 10 times about 5 min apart whether or not you were also in the room, they would all be able to answer correctly, not to mention give the same answer?

Claiming they believe wouldn't work. They'd have to really believe or Sally's magic God power wouldn't get through to them.

How we determine who really believes is another question. . .

[Plastictowel]

How we determine who really believes is another question. . .

Test their IQ, if it's under 80, we got a believer!

[eri]

Well, yes, there is that problem. Besides, I haven't met many 'true believers' without a doubt in their minds. I suppose Sally could find some to bring with her - that's probably the best solution.

[eri]

Test there IQ, if it's under 80, we got a believer!

Helping or hurting, Plastictowel, helping or hurting? ;)

[Plastictowel]

Laughing my good man, laughing.

[NotJesus]

Sally,

If you could prove to all unbelievers that God exists and demonstrate what the nature of God is, that would be worth far more to you (and to everyone else) than some piddling $1 million dollars. If you sincerely think you can do it then forget about the JREF challenge and go attempt it in any manner you see fit. Good luck.

If, on the other hand, you prefer to try for the $1 million, then you need to come up with a testable claim. You may dismiss such things as parlor tricks, but the JREF is not going to hand over the money because you believe something very strongly. Coming up with such a claim is your responsibilty.

And calling nonbelievers stupid is not going to win you many friends here.

[Plastictowel]

Who needs friends, when you have imaginary ones?

[Bob Klase]

My presence can be a source of love and understanding. God shines his light through me and brings peace to those around me...that is what I can do.

Yet strangely, your presence here is a source of bluster, contradictions and confusion. Perhaps god hasn't figured out the internet yet.

[Beleth]

I am not talking palour tricks people. Gods will is not to give lottery numbers find metal under a cup or read peoples mind.
I am not asking you to do any of those things.

God is love and God is forgiveness. How do you reconcile this with your other statement that "the Iraq war is part of God's plan. I have been told that this will forever punish all those that forsake him"? Punishing forever and forgiveness are mutually exclusive.

I am asking the deepest and most outright skeptics to tell me what would prove that God is in all of our lives not that I can do a cool trick and claim God did it. You asked what would convince me. I told you.

You said that God speaks through you. I have told God what would convince me. I am not asking you to read my mind; I am asking you to show that God speaks through you.

I am smarter than that and it will not bring in the critical thinkers as believers. You are wrong. If you can show that God speaks to you, and can do so in the manner God already knows will convince me, then I will believe you.

Here is one of the lines I was thinking on. Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity...So, go to a war-torn section of Iraq and watch people nearby lay down their weapons and be fed by nothing but the holy light radiating from you? That's not what I had in mind, but it would be a good start. Are you willing to do that?

[roger]

Claiming they believe wouldn't work. They'd have to really believe or Sally's magic God power wouldn't get through to them.

How we determine who really believes is another question. . .May I suggest it doesn't matter? Randi likes to run an open/sighted trial first, to get the claimant to agree (or not) that the protocol is fair and working.

So...

Put her in a pitch black room with a window in a wall. Have her stand in either the left or right corner, and a 3rd party stand in the other corner. Have "believers" look through the window and say if she is in the left or right corner.

Preface this with an open trial where you tell the believers she is in the left or right corner. Ask if they can see her "glowing" there.

Not ironclad, since they can lie, but if this is her claim then this is how it can be test. it's up to her to identify 'real' believers.


ETA: the reason for the room and the window is to provide sound insulation, the reason for the second person in the corner is to mitigate sound, movement, etc, further.

[Plastictowel]

At first she said she was willing to do it, than she said she isn't willing. Everything she says neglects the previous statement, she's stepped all over he own toes, and I'm sure deep down she knows it.

[Psiload]

No need to reinvent the wheel here. How about some oldies but goodies?

How about you walk on water? Turn water into wine? Feed five thousand people with two loaves and two fish? Or would you consider these feats cheap parlor tricks also?

[Ashles]

I need believers around me to help exetuate his presence to PROVE to the stupid nonbelievers that GOD IS LOVE!
LOL that's really funny.

Good one.

You are joking, yes?

[Rasmus]

I'm sure deep down she knows it.

Do you think the voices are laughing at her?

[nathan]

He gets his power through belief I need believers around me to help exetuate his presence to PROVE to the stupid nonbelievers that GOD IS LOVE!
But how are you going to prove his presence to the non-stupid non-believers?

[steenkh]

Sally, by now you must have realised how difficult it is to prove the existence of God without any physical evidence to back it up.

I might point out to you that in fact lots of people around the world has had similar experiences to you, but have come to different conclusions. For instance, there are many buddhists who can reach an inner calm and bliss but their conclusion is not that there exists a God that speaks through them. And Hindus are known to get revelations from their multitude of gods.

Are you prepared to disprove the Hindus and the Buddhists? How would you prove that your experiences are in any way different from theirs?

[GzuzKryzt]

It only happens when people believe in God. They see the light in me and know He is present within me any anger, worry, doubt fades away immediately.

Sally, I remember now you posted in Pepper's "Sam I Am" thread a while ago. From your experiment with EFT you surely will understand that you have to set up a similar experiment to prove your claim here.

Perhaps you need to find a way to make the results - positive or negative - obvious to not only what you call "believers" but to everybody examining the data of your test.

What you described so far seems mostly difficult to test. Experiences like what you call "love", "anger", "worry", "doubt" are perceived differently from person to person and cannot be satisfiably measured.

The experience of "warmth" may be measurable quite easily: Do you mean that everybody's temperature (or blood pressure, pulse rate) rises while you are in the same room?

[Sally]

Sally, I remember now you posted in Pepper's "Sam I Am" thread a while ago. From your experiment with EFT you surely will understand that you have to set up a similar experiment to prove your claim here.

Perhaps you need to find a way to make the results - positive or negative - obvious to not only what you call "believers" but to everybody examining the data of your test.

What you described so far seems mostly difficult to test. Experiences like what you call "love", "anger", "worry", "doubt" are perceived differently from person to person and cannot be satisfiably measured.

The experience of "warmth" may be measurable quite easily: Do you mean that everybody's temperature (or blood pressure, pulse rate) rises while you are in the same room?

God has guided me to share my experiences with others as much as I can. I have not done any physical measurement but whenever speaking to people that have been touched by the holy spirit themselves they recognize the inner light God has placed in me. The describe the feelings of peacefullness, wellbeing and purpose. I do not know at this time if actually body functions are measurably different as they experience His presence but it something I could attempt to test...

[Sally]

So, go to a war-torn section of Iraq and watch people nearby lay down their weapons and be fed by nothing but the holy light radiating from you? That's not what I had in mind, but it would be a good start. Are you willing to do that?

First if it is in God's plan I will be led to show you the answers you are seeking. I may not be the person called to show you that for God works through the masses. I suspect your proof will come from a very personal experience and do not think I am the one to provide it...

And to address the Iraq issue again. God is forgiveness that is a fact... Those fighting for truth and freedom willing to take God into their hearts will be forgiven and given the gift of everlasting life. Those in the Muslim community that have choosen to forsake Him and have no place in there heart will be punished while it is true God is willing to accept all those have to accept Him first if not the will continue to live in the damnation they have caused.

[Cuddles]

This is a cat

[Nucular]

Sally, you see what people are driving at here?

It sounds from what you've said that your 'claim' is that other 'true believers' can detect the 'warmth of God' in you.

This sounds to us like it's something they could see in you, but not in others.

So, it has been suggested that one protocol might be that people detect your presence without using their eyes, but instead using their, ah, less tangible senses. How does this sound to you?

I suppose an alternative might be some procedure in picking you apart from others who do not have the warmth of God. Perhaps behind a screen?

Any of these ideas what you're driving at?

How can we establish who the 'true believers' are? Could you bring some?

[Nucular]

This is a cat

That's not a cat. This is a cat.

http://cdp.doomed-reality.org/cats/big%20cat.jpg

[GzuzKryzt]

God has guided me to share my experiences with others as much as I can. I have not done any physical measurement but whenever speaking to people that have been touched by the holy spirit themselves they recognize the inner light God has placed in me. The describe the feelings of peacefullness, wellbeing and purpose. I do not know at this time if actually body functions are measurably different as they experience His presence but it something I could attempt to test...

Does "could attempt to test" mean you will do it?

What other ways do you propose to measurable demonstrate what you claim?

[Plastictowel]

Guys she went from asking us how to test her, to basically just preaching jibberish. The saddest part is, as god speaks through her, he continues to make typos and grammatical errors!

[steenkh]

I have not done any physical measurement but whenever speaking to people that have been touched by the holy spirit themselves they recognize the inner light God has placed in me. The describe the feelings of peacefullness, wellbeing and purpose. I do not know at this time if actually body functions are measurably different as they experience His presence but it something I could attempt to test...
Is this your claim? That you can imbue anybody with the touch of the Holy Spirit (whatever that is) and recognise the inner light that God has placed in you (whatever that means)?

Somehow I do not think this will ever net the million dollars, but it is certainly paranormal, and you could give it a try. I foresee troubles with the protocols ...

[Sally]

Guys she went from asking us how to test her, to basically just preaching jibberish. The saddest part is, as god speaks through her, he continues to make typos and grammatical errors!

Dispite your attempts to twart the progress some of us are attempting to progress to a test. I think I know who has filled your cup Mr. towel enjoy the heat. HA!

Back to working out an accepitable test. First me being in darkened room or behind a screen having believers pick out where the sense of warmth and love is coming from. I am not sure how it will work the presence is an overwhelming feeling if you are around many people I am not sure you can pinpoint it on the one specific person that radiates it...

Testing body tempature heart rate blood pressure could be intersted and I am willing to go that route but my fear is if I am the one doing the testing will these stats be raised as soon as I am in the area...what would be a suitable method to getting a baseline result without the presence of God within me affecting the results of the baseline...

I find only believers feel the presence those that have not accepted God as there lord and savour feel nothing...

[Gr8wight]

Dispite your attempts to twart the progress some of us are attempting to progress to a test. I think I know who has filled your cup Mr. towel enjoy the heat. HA!

Back to working out an accepitable test. First me being in darkened room or behind a screen having believers pick out where the sense of warmth and love is coming from. I am not sure how it will work the presence is an overwhelming feeling if you are around many people I am not sure you can pinpoint it on the one specific person that radiates it...

Testing body tempature heart rate blood pressure could be intersted and I am willing to go that route but my fear is if I am the one doing the testing will these stats be raised as soon as I am in the area...what would be a suitable method to getting a baseline result without the presence of God within me affecting the results of the baseline...

I find only believers feel the presence those that have not accepted God as there lord and savour feel nothing...

So, you appear to be saying that you have the ability to make people who already believe in God....believe in God.

That's like me saying that I can make people who love spaghetti...eat spaghetti.

[Sally]

So, you appear to be saying that you have the ability to make people who already believe in God....believe in God.

That's like me saying that I can make people who love spaghetti...eat spaghetti.


Okay let me try to be a little clearer on the exactly His presence does. I know it is a difficult thing for a skeptic to comprehend.

I can sense those that believe those that have God within there heart those same people that believe feel the overwhelming presence when I am near. The have described it as a overwhelming sense of peacefullness, fearlessness, purpose and more...

I have furthmore had experiences where God's presence has overwhelmed a situation when Myself and other believers are around the strength of God's power can be felt intesely and I have seen it stop fighting, change moods, and minimize differences of groups. I travel a bit and have watched this happen in group settings a hostile situation is arising I God speaks to me the warmth is presence and the situation resolves in a peaceful manner...

[IXP]

Sally,

I can make a True Scotsman feel my presence, but be aware, it has to be a True Scotsman. If he does not feel my presence, he is obviously not a True Scotsman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

IXP

[Nucular]

Back to working out an accepitable test. First me being in darkened room or behind a screen having believers pick out where the sense of warmth and love is coming from. I am not sure how it will work the presence is an overwhelming feeling if you are around many people I am not sure you can pinpoint it on the one specific person that radiates it...

But you're saying it's not radiated at all if you're not present, right? So presence or absence of the glow or whatever can be considered an indication of your presence or absence?

[Sally]

But you're saying it's not radiated at all if you're not present, right? So presence or absence of the glow or whatever can be considered an indication of your presence or absence?

Correct, if they are a believer they always feel God but the experience when I am around can grow much more intense and powerful than anything they have ever felt they know they are around someone that has been truely blessed with His touch.

[Almo]

Yes, God ought to know really that Randi explicitly states in his FAQ that proving His existence isn't what the challenge is there for.

Can always count on Nucular for a laugh! :)

[Plastictowel]

Dispite your attempts to twart the progress some of us are attempting to progress to a test. I think I know who has filled your cup Mr. towel enjoy the heat. HA!

Back to working out an accepitable test. First me being in darkened room or behind a screen having believers pick out where the sense of warmth and love is coming from. I am not sure how it will work the presence is an overwhelming feeling if you are around many people I am not sure you can pinpoint it on the one specific person that radiates it...

Testing body tempature heart rate blood pressure could be intersted and I am willing to go that route but my fear is if I am the one doing the testing will these stats be raised as soon as I am in the area...what would be a suitable method to getting a baseline result without the presence of God within me affecting the results of the baseline...

I find only believers feel the presence those that have not accepted God as there lord and savour feel nothing...

Listen, you're down right crazy. Go back and re-read everything you have said. You have stepped on your own toes numerious times. Like everyone has pointed out, so far, besides this "warmth test," all you've said is you can show people who ALREADY believe in god, warmth and peace in God. If they already believe in him why wouldn't they already have this warmth and peace, since you say only the true believers will sense it. How in the hell will that benefit anyone??? You are unable to make non-believers believe, you can't make semi believers fully believe, but you can make FULL BELIEVERS WARM?

Than you have the nerve to suggest going to some war ridden country, as soon as someone like Crowbot suggest Iraq you instantly back down. Face it, you have nothing but a strong desire in God. That's fine, keep at it, but don't try and preach to us, if according to your own logic we can't be preached to in the first place.

[Nucular]

Correct, if they are a believer they always feel God but the experience when I am around can grow much more intense and powerful than anything they have ever felt they know they are around someone that has been truely blessed with His touch.

Okay, so it shouldn't be necessary to pinpoint the feeling as radiating from a specific person: the collection of TBs should be able, based the overwhelming feeling, to say whether you are present behind a screen, or in a room whilst they are blindfolded, over a number of trials?

This is sounding like a pretty straightforward test to me.

[Almo]

I am not talking palour tricks people. Gods will is not to give lottery numbers find metal under a cup or read peoples mind. God is love and God is forgiveness.

I'm with this. Asking someone who says they can prove a god exists to pick lottery numbers is silly, and is just generally unhelpful.

Sorry if this comment is late... I'm just reading through the thread and commenting as I go.

[Plastictowel]

Correct, if they are a believer they always feel God but the experience when I am around can grow much more intense and powerful than anything they have ever felt they know they are around someone that has been truely blessed with His touch.

So when you walk into a random church on Sunday, everyone gazes at you and has a sudden feeling of the Lord? Or do you discuss your experience with the car accident, and than they feel this might warmth? I mean honestly, you don't just walk down the street turning heads, unless you're hot. But I highly doubt that.

[Sally]

Listen, you're down right crazy. Go back and re-read everything you have said. You have stepped on your own toes numerious times. Like everyone has pointed out, so far, besides this "warmth test," all you've said is you can show people who ALREADY believe in god, warmth and peace in God. If they already believe in him why wouldn't they already have this warmth and peace, since you say only the true believers will sense it. How in the hell will that benefit anyone??? You are unable to make non-believers believe, you can't make semi believers fully believe, but you can make FULL BELIEVERS WARM?

Than you have the nerve to suggest going to some war ridden country, as soon as someone like Crowbot suggest Iraq you instantly back down. Face it, you have nothing but a strong desire in God. That's fine, keep at it, but don't try and preach to us, if according to your own logic we can't be preached to in the first place.


Reread my posts towel.

Iraq is overwhelming controlled by those that forsake Him. I alone would not have the power to stop the destruction from happening this is much bigger than both of us.

I suggested my gift would work within an African nation those places in which God is accepted into everyday life. Having God's love in the people is the way I can help bring it to non-believers.

Believers feel the presence very strong when I am around the know he is surrounded in situations of anger or dread or conflict I can use this gift to bring peace and love to the situation and have done it before..even when not all in the group believe the power from Him through me and the other believers are enough to overwhelm the anger and bring in peace...

[Gr8wight]

Okay, so it shouldn't be necessary to pinpoint the feeling as radiating from a specific person: the collection of TBs should be able, based the overwhelming feeling, to say whether you are present behind a screen, or in a room whilst they are blindfolded, over a number of trials?

This is sounding like a pretty straightforward test to me.

Agreed. What do you say, Sally?

[Sally]

So when you walk into a random church on Sunday, everyone gazes at you and has a sudden feeling of the Lord? Or do you discuss your experience with the car accident, and than they feel this might warmth? I mean honestly, you don't just walk down the street turning heads, unless you're hot. But I highly doubt that.


I get a look or two but no its not like that.

I have had experiences in groups sharing what has happened like you describe.

When I attend church God is already present the situation does not call for him to show himself through me. It is hard to explain but it is not something I turn on or off God is guiding it and brings His presence in when needed I know from speaking with Him that he is leading me to prove his presence through these methods so I know when the time comes the feelings of those around will be obvious...

[Sally]

Agreed. What do you say, Sally?


I see that as being easy and straightforward.

A serious question to the most critical of the skeptics. If this did happen if those that proclaimed God to be in there life could feel his presence when I was place behind the screen what affect would that have on your status of believing?

[Plastictowel]

So you're telling me NOTHING will change your mind that this is all in your head?

Can someone on this board explain to me how some of us are critical thinkers, and seriously seek the truth, and people like Sally here get totally obcessed with this theory of a higher power, and than the fact that he only caters to christians and figures the rest will burn in hell fire?

[Sally]

So you're telling me NOTHING will change your mind that this is all in your head?

Can someone on this board explain to me how some of us are critical thinkers, and seriously seek the truth, and people like Sally here get totally obcessed with this theory of a higher power, and than the fact that he only caters to christians and figures the rest will burn in hell fire?

Have you read the bible at least once?

Maybe you head would not be so full of confusion if you did.

[Plastictowel]

If you passed the JREF challenge, I know I'd believe you. But I know you won't pass either.

[Sally]

If you passed the JREF challenge, I know I'd believe you. But I know you won't pass either.


And that is why God has led me to you Mr. Towel. Your life is soon to be truely blessed I feel this deeply right now and know you are one of the ones God has spoken to me about.

[Plastictowel]

Yeah Sally, and I attended Catholic High School for 2 years, and was baptised and had first communion on my own will in the fifth grade. I actually asked my parents to allow me those "blessings." However by the time I hit religion class in high-school it was clear the bible was entirely made up. Hell it was written 40 years AFTER Jesus died. There is so much to contradict in the bible anyone here could take up pages upon pages about the sheer stupidity and ignorance. And lets not forget the fact that Genesis has been totally disproved, and the whole theorys of god creating light, god creating adam and eve, the world being finished in 6 days, ALL DISPROVED. Yet all a catholic has to say is "lets interpret it differently."

Oh and being in high school, you realize about 95% of CATHOLIC students, have done at least 1 mortal sin. So regardless, they are all rotting in hell anyway.

Like you didn't give someone a handjob before marriage.

[IXP]

Iraq is overwhelming controlled by those that forsake Him. I alone would not have the power to stop the destruction from happening this is much bigger than both of us.

A question for you:

Is it because they are Muslims that they forsake god? If so, they wouldn't they say the same about you? How do know which of you is right?

IXP

[GzuzKryzt]

Okay let me try to be a little clearer on the exactly His presence does. I know it is a difficult thing for a skeptic to comprehend.

I can sense those that believe those that have God within there heart those same people that believe feel the overwhelming presence when I am near. The have described it as a overwhelming sense of peacefullness, fearlessness, purpose and more...

I have furthmore had experiences where God's presence has overwhelmed a situation when Myself and other believers are around the strength of God's power can be felt intesely and I have seen it stop fighting, change moods, and minimize differences of groups. I travel a bit and have watched this happen in group settings a hostile situation is arising I God speaks to me the warmth is presence and the situation resolves in a peaceful manner...

Sally, what you describe is very difficult to measure satisfiably, i.e. define outside of one's personal perception. I have no doubt that you had the experiences you describe.

Now we have to find a way to make these experiences measurable outside of your mind or the minds of believers.

Nucular's rough draft of a protocol seems to move in a productive way. What do you think, Sally?

[Plastictowel]

No Sally, because according to you, I'm going to hell. I understand the bible, I have sex with my girlfriend several times a week(mortal sin), I'm down with abortion, and I've done drugs in church, (Im cracking myself up now), There is no saving me! I'm damned to hell!
But who cares, maybe in hell i'll actually feel the "warmth."

[Gr8wight]

I see that as being easy and straightforward.

A serious question to the most critical of the skeptics. If this did happen if those that proclaimed God to be in there life could feel his presence when I was place behind the screen what affect would that have on your status of believing?

If you were to pass the test, and win the JREF million dollar challenge I would be forced to seriously reconsider my belief structure.

A question for you. If you were to fail to pass the test, what affect[sic] would that have on your status of believing?

[Nucular]

A serious question to the most critical of the skeptics. If this did happen if those that proclaimed God to be in there life could feel his presence when I was place behind the screen what affect would that have on your status of believing?

This test would not convince me that God exists, or even that any supernatural deity or being exists. I would know that something had occurred that I could not explain. This would certainly get my interest up, and who knows where that can lead? If you, or anybody won the million, I think most of us here would sit up and take notice, and we'd listen to what you have to say about it (note: listening does not equal accept uncritically).

From your perspective, I guess you could see this as a good step in the right direction from all of us non-believers.

Now a serious question for you Sally: what would failing the test do to your beliefs?

Edit: beaten by gr8wight, who said what I wanted to in fewer words. D'oh.

[Sally]

Yeah Sally, and I attended Catholic High School for 2 years, and was baptised and had first communion on my own will in the fifth grade. I actually asked my parents to allow me those "blessings." However by the time I hit religion class in high-school it was clear the bible was entirely made up. Hell it was written 40 years AFTER Jesus died. There is so much to contradict in the bible anyone here could take up pages upon pages about the sheer stupidity and ignorance. And lets not forget the fact that Genesis has been totally disproved, and the whole theorys of god creating light, god creating adam and eve, the world being finished in 6 days, ALL DISPROVED. Yet all a catholic has to say is "lets interpret it differently."

Oh and being in high school, you realize about 95% of CATHOLIC students, have done at least 1 mortal sin. So regardless, they are all rotting in hell anyway.

Like you didn't give someone a handjob before marriage.

A. I am unmarried

B. God Forgives anyone that spent anytime in Catholic school should have that basic principal since they do spend a heck of a lot of time in confession.

C. I believe the Catholic church to be a flawed institution that has been taken over by the power hungry and used to keep those with status and power in power.

D. Does the scientific community not change there minds and adjust the theories as new evidence is discovered. You slam the church for doing the same! I am a Christian that believes in evolution believes in the Big Bang but also believes in a higher power behind it. The bible is a book written with God's guidance but it is not 100% fact. They are stories to demonstrate what God has done and does for his people...

[Crowbot]

And that is why God has led me to you Mr. Towel. Your life is soon to be truely blessed I feel this deeply right now and know you are one of the ones God has spoken to me about.

What did god tell you about Plastictowel? I'll bet I know more about Plastictowel than god does. Let's have a plastictowel quiz, shall we...Me versus god-speaking-through-you Sally. What city does Plastictowel live in?

[Silly Green Monkey]

By the way, Islam was spread throughout Africa by Islamic traders a thousand years ago. So, if Muslims are rejecting God, and Iraq is unsuitable for that reason, Africa is unsuitable as well.

[Sally]

This test would not convince me that God exists, or even that any supernatural deity or being exists. I would know that something had occurred that I could not explain. This would certainly get my interest up, and who knows where that can lead? If you, or anybody won the million, I think most of us here would sit up and take notice, and we'd listen to what you have to say about it (note: listening does not equal accept uncritically).

From your perspective, I guess you could see this as a good step in the right direction from all of us non-believers.

Now a serious question for you Sally: what would failing the test do to your beliefs?

I think we are certainly on the right path than. God has led me on this path to open up doors to new exploration into his guidance and wants the scientific community involved the church is an archaic and outdated method of bring belief.

God has not set me up for faliure it is not in His plan.

[0oTITANo0]

Hi Everyone,

I have been lurking around here for some time in hopes of finding the best way to appy for the challenge. Since I am still in the dark on how to do so I am coming here for advice.

A little background to me:

When I was a young child of the age of 5 I was hit by a car travelling at a good rate of speed...being thrown for a distance my head collided with the pavement and pushed me into a blackout (near death) for a few hours. During that time I was overwhelmed with a feeling of peacefullness and sense of purpose a brightness filled the space around me and I felt a power much more amazing than I.

As I grew and learned I knew I was in the presence of God during my time away from the world I have used this experience to reclaim a connection with God and have the ability to receive guidence from Him. He has truely guided my life and has led me to various encounters with unbelievers (which is how I ended up here) The full purpose of His work is still coming into light but I now know enough that He is ready through me to disprove the nonbelievers I know that randi's challenge is part of this.

God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me...


I already have trouble believing you. If God really is speaking to you, and he really is all knowing and all powerful it should be effortless for him to come up with a demonstration that will convince anyone that he exists and that he speaks through you. Why are you coming to us for help when you have access to a far superior resource and he already knows the answer?

[Sally]

What did god tell you about Plastictowel? I'll bet I know more about Plastictowel than god does. Let's have a plastictowel quiz, shall we...Me versus god-speaking-through-you Sally. What city does Plastictowel live in?


This is a message of someone that would rather play games than try to understand belief.

God does not tell me trival information God provides a path for me I choose weather or not to take that path.

We all do.

[Crowbot]

God has not set me up for faliure it is not in His plan.

If god isnt setting you up for failure WHY HAVE YOU BEEN UNABLE TO CONVINCE ANYONE ON THIS BOARD OF ANYTHING EXCEPT YOUR OWN MENTAL INSTABILITY SALLY?

[Almo]

Yo Sally!

Much as I find it silly the way some people are grilling you here, I also would like to remind you that what the people here will be interested in is a test. As far as I can tell, Nucular is really trying to help come up with a test that the JREF would accept. Obviously, none of us here on the forum can speak for Randi or the JREF, but many of us have a good idea about how they like things formatted.

If the test can show that people are somehow able to tell you apart from others "blindly," then the JREF won't care if it's God or not, and will help you get the test conducted. Again, this is only my opinion, and making a Challenge Application is the only real way to find out exactly what will be accepted.

Good luck!

[Gr8wight]

I think we are certainly on the right path than. God has led me on this path to open up doors to new exploration into his guidance and wants the scientific community involved the church is an archaic and outdated method of bring belief.

God has not set me up for faliure it is not in His plan.

You have not answered the question that has been posed to you. I know you do not believe it is possible for you to fail to pass the test. Try to consider the possibility in the abstract.

Hypothetically, if you were to fail the test, how would that affect your belief system?

[Sally]

I already have trouble believing you. If God really is speaking to you, and he really is all knowing and all powerful it should be effortless for him to come up with a demonstration that will convince anyone that he exists and that he speaks through you. Why are you coming to us for help when you have access to a far superior resource and he already knows the answer?

See the response above.

God provided a path for me to take. I must decide how, when and where to take it.

[Plastictowel]

A. I am unmarried (Alright, and I doubt in your entire life you haven't had a sexual experience, my FULL understanding is that is a MORTAL SIN, no matter what, you go to hell for that. THE END.)

B. God Forgives anyone that spent anytime in Catholic school should have that basic principal since they do spend a heck of a lot of time in confession.
(Right it all back tracks all over itself. You can only goto heaven with a baptism, you must not commit these sins, but if you do, confess and you're good, but not mortal sins those send you to hell, well nevermind I guess not because you confessed, even though according to THE WORD OF THE LORD, it will send you to hell)

C. I believe the Catholic church to be a flawed institution that has been taken over by the power hungry and used to keep those with status and power in power. (Good and I believe you're crazy)
D. Does the scientific community not change there minds and adjust the theories as new evidence is discovered. You slam the church for doing the same! I am a Christian that believes in evolution believes in the Big Bang but also believes in a higher power behind it. The bible is a book written with God's guidance but it is not 100% fact. They are stories to demonstrate what God has done and does for his people...(Yes we change our mine as EVIDENCE and Scientific studies come about, and it's those studies that disproved what god "spoke to the authors of the bible about" that the church than turns around and re-interprets over. How can god explain how HE HIMSELF made the earth, than when science disproves this, it's just supposed to be "uh a story I miss told because although I'm all knowing, I'm also forgetfull."


In Matthew 17:20 Jesus reiterates that same message:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

I was told that when I was 6 by a heavy southern baptist, so you know what I tryed. THAT EXACT THING. And at that time I truly believed "in the lord." Nothing happened.

And lets not forget the utter crap of this

Jesus says something similar in Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Jesus is actually in our midst and God answers our prayers.

[IXP]

I think we are certainly on the right path than. God has led me on this path to open up doors to new exploration into his guidance and wants the scientific community involved the church is an archaic and outdated method of bring belief.

God has not set me up for faliure it is not in His plan.
Sally,

I really, really hope that you can progress to an actual test. To see god himself (working through you) fail the Challenge is all I could ever hope for.

IXP

[jstro]

Well, despite the preachy mumbojumbo, it looks like this is moving towards an actual protocol, which is great. It is now up to Sally to formalize the protocol and submit it.

I'm not experienced in designing such protocols, Sally, but I would forewarn you that in order for this test to actually work, the conditions of the test would have to eliminate all possibility that the believer(s) could detect you via natural means. Obviously you need an opaque screen that prevents the believers from seeing any part of you. What about other senses, such as hearing? Perhaps the believers know the sound of your steps -- so you should enter the room before they do so they can't hear you walk in. What about smells, e.g., perfume, body soap, shampoo? Perhaps split the room with a plastic sheet to keep odors from giving you away. These are just examples. Keep these things in mind when proposing your test protocol. Further, one trial isn't enough to establish proof, since the believers might just have a lucky guess. You would need to repeat this trial a number of times to have a statistically significant result. And would the group of believers be together, communicating with eachother, or apart and not communicating? If together, would they have to agree unanimously or by majority vote? As you can see, there are a lot of details here to be worked out. I encourage you to work through it and submit a proposal.

[Crowbot]

God does not tell me trival information God provides a path for me I choose weather or not to take that path.

So information that would outright prove the existence of god is "trivial" huh?

Amazing how blind you have to make yourself to believe in god, Sally...

If you truely believe you hear voices in your head which are not your own, you should seek counseling. Do not ignore this message because you dislike me, or think I am somehow the "voice of satan" trying to trick you. You're suffering from a very well documented mental instability, and I refuse to coddle you by trying to convince you otherwise any further. Seek immediate medical assistance Sally, before you end up hurting yourself or someone else.

[Sally]

You have not answered the question that has been posed to you. I know you do not believe it is possible for you to fail to pass the test. Try to consider the possibility in the abstract.

Hypothetically, if you were to fail the test, how would that affect your belief system?


In the abstract if I fail than I have failed God.

I would have no further purpose in this realm.

[Plastictowel]

She won't ever take the test, we need to face this, hell she won't even apply because she can't even figure out a test.She just feels blessed, fine and good Sally, but take it somewhere else, where people agree with you, IE CHURCH.
We all know you won't get around to anything here but asking us questions on how to test, and then coming up with reasons why that won't work. We get it. Move on. You want to preach the lord, this is the wrong place to do it.

[Gr8wight]

In the abstract if I fail than I have failed God.

I would have no further purpose in this realm.

That wasn't the question either.

[Nucular]

I would have no further purpose in this realm.

Hmmm, don't like the sound of that. You believe God forgives, remember?

How about this protocol we were talking about then Sally? As I see it, a considerable outstanding detail is the identification of the True Believers. Do you have some TBs you could supply? Or can you pick them accurately? Is there a working definition we could go with?

[Gr8wight]

Hmmm, don't like the sound of that. You believe God forgives, remember?

How about this protocol we were talking about then Sally? As I see it, a considerable outstanding detail is the identification of the True Believers. Do you have some TBs you could supply? Or can you pick them accurately? Is there a working definition we could go with?

I believe that, just as Irish "psychic" Paul Carey would have been required to provide his own readers, Sally would be required by the JREF to supply her own "true believers." The purpose of this requirement is to ensure the applicant cannot claim the JREF failed to provide acceptable people.

[GzuzKryzt]

How about five "True Believers", Sally? Perhaps members of your church?

[Sally]

A. I am unmarried (Alright, and I doubt in your entire life you haven't had a sexual experience, my FULL understanding is that is a MORTAL SIN, no matter what, you go to hell for that. THE END.)

You are really obsessed arent you. I do not subscribe to the Catholic principals no Sin is mortal all Sins are forgivable

B. God Forgives anyone that spent anytime in Catholic school should have that basic principal since they do spend a heck of a lot of time in confession.
(Right it all back tracks all over itself. You can only goto heaven with a baptism, you must not commit these sins, but if you do, confess and you're good, but not mortal sins those send you to hell, well nevermind I guess not because you confessed, even though according to THE WORD OF THE LORD, it will send you to hell)

Really not that hard of a principal you accept God and He accepts you

C. I believe the Catholic church to be a flawed institution that has been taken over by the power hungry and used to keep those with status and power in power. (Good and I believe you're crazy)
D. Does the scientific community not change there minds and adjust the theories as new evidence is discovered. You slam the church for doing the same! I am a Christian that believes in evolution believes in the Big Bang but also believes in a higher power behind it. The bible is a book written with God's guidance but it is not 100% fact. They are stories to demonstrate what God has done and does for his people...(Yes we change our mine as EVIDENCE and Scientific studies come about, and it's those studies that disproved what god "spoke to the authors of the bible about" that the church than turns around and re-interprets over. How can god explain how HE HIMSELF made the earth, than when science disproves this, it's just supposed to be "uh a story I miss told because although I'm all knowing, I'm also forgetfull."

Who is going around in circles..provide the same leadway to God as you do to scientists
In Matthew 17:20 Jesus reiterates that same message:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

I was told that when I was 6 by a heavy southern baptist, so you know what I tryed. THAT EXACT THING. And at that time I truly believed "in the lord." Nothing happened.

And lets not forget the utter crap of this

Jesus says something similar in Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Jesus is actually in our midst and God answers our prayers.


Try harder

[jstro]

How about five "True Believers", Sally? Perhaps members of your church?
I think I can predict the reason Sally might give for failure if this test should actually ever occur: "Although they are true believers, they must have had unrepented-for sins on their souls that day so they couldn't detect me. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

[Nucular]

I believe that, just as Irish "psychic" Paul Carey would have been required to provide his own readers, Sally would be required by the JREF to supply her own "true believers." The purpose of this requirement is to ensure the applicant cannot claim the JREF failed to provide acceptable people.

Yes, I would think so too; I suppose I was toying with the idea that they could be identified by sight, or by their reaction to Sally's presence or something, but yes, simply providing her own I think would be the best plan.

[IXP]

How about five "True Believers", Sally? Perhaps members of your church?

And make sure they are without sin, becuase then, when you have finished the test, you can stone Randi to death.

IXP

[Sally]

I believe that, just as Irish "psychic" Paul Carey would have been required to provide his own readers, Sally would be required by the JREF to supply her own "true believers." The purpose of this requirement is to ensure the applicant cannot claim the JREF failed to provide acceptable people.

I have absolutely no problem doing this.

If the interguity of the test can be preserved with me bringing in the subjects it makes my part even easier. I can pretest to find ones in my community that feel His presence the strongest.

[petre]

In the abstract if I fail than I have failed God.

I would have no further purpose in this realm.

Typically when believers are confronted with proof that some facet of their belief is clearly mistaken (like how God's power manefests itself in you), they simply discard it as misinterpretation from human failibility and continue on believing the remainder.

For example, if scientific evidence contradicts something in the Bible, it's not too difficult to fault the human writers/translators or simply mark it as metaphor and go on believing the rest.

Anyway, sounds like you've gotten some help in working out a testable claim. I'd advise you to test it out yourself beforehand, but I'm sure you'd be so certain in success you'd never bother anyway. Hope to hear you've sent an application shortly, and good luck!

[IXP]

Yes, pretesting is strongly recommended.

IXP

[Sally]

She won't ever take the test, we need to face this, hell she won't even apply because she can't even figure out a test.She just feels blessed, fine and good Sally, but take it somewhere else, where people agree with you, IE CHURCH.
We all know you won't get around to anything here but asking us questions on how to test, and then coming up with reasons why that won't work. We get it. Move on. You want to preach the lord, this is the wrong place to do it.

He does have a great plan for you Mr Towel. You are fighting the progress on designing a test quite hard but that will make the reward much sweeter.

[Gr8wight]

Try harder

Sally,

I think your best strategy at this point would be to completely ignore Plastic Towel's posts. We seem to be constructively working toward a possible application from you. Let's not let him, or anyone else, derail this thread too much.

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

C. I believe the Catholic church to be a flawed institution that has been taken over by the power hungry and used to keep those with status and power in power.
Blasphemous!

How dare you interpret the will of the church! It is not your place to question, only to blindly follow in faith.

The Catholic church follows the bible, which is the infalliable Word of God. There is no interpretation.

If you question the church, you question God himself. You are just as much as an unbeliever as any skeptic.

[Gr8wight]

I have absolutely no problem doing this.

If the interguity of the test can be preserved with me bringing in the subjects it makes my part even easier. I can pretest to find ones in my community that feel His presence the strongest.

Excellent. When will you be sending in an application?

[Sally]

Typically when believers are confronted with proof that some facet of their belief is clearly mistaken (like how God's power manefests itself in you), they simply discard it as misinterpretation from human failibility and continue on believing the remainder.

For example, if scientific evidence contradicts something in the Bible, it's not too difficult to fault the human writers/translators or simply mark it as metaphor and go on believing the rest.

Anyway, sounds like you've gotten some help in working out a testable claim. I'd advise you to test it out yourself beforehand, but I'm sure you'd be so certain in success you'd never bother anyway. Hope to hear you've sent an application shortly, and good luck!

I did not waste My time as a lurker. Pretesting will be done.

I already know those in my community that have felt the spirit when I am around I will bring this up with them on our Monday study session. I feel this is a slam dunk and a bit to easy was expecting a much more complicated test.

[Sally]

Blasphemous!

How dare you interpret the will of the church! It is not your place to question, only to blindly follow in faith.

The Catholic church follows the bible, which is the infalliable Word of God. There is no interpretation.

If you question the church, you question God himself. You are just as much as an unbeliever as any skeptic.

The Pope is human therefore the Pope is falliable along with the Bishops, Priests, etc, etc etc...God works and speaks directly to his believers...

[Gr8wight]

I did not waste My time as a lurker. Pretesting will be done.

I already know those in my community that have felt the spirit when I am around I will bring this up with them on our Monday study session. I feel this is a slam dunk and a bit to easy was expecting a much more complicated test.

You may be surprised. Would you like to discuss the types of controls that might be necessary to ensure the test is valid?

[jstro]

I feel this is a slam dunk and a bit to easy was expecting a much more complicated test.

That's wonderful and I sincerely hope to see your application. The test, in essence, is a very easy one, but you need to be pretty thorough on the details. I am sure that you will get all the constructive advice you need just by asking on this forum.

[IXP]

Great!

If you believe you can do this, and do not insist on endless negotiation, I believe you could be tested withing a month or so.

IXP

[Sally]

Excellent. When will you be sending in an application?


I will bring it up with my study group on Monday they all have felt the experience I am describing. You think 5 is a suitable number? There are a dozen of us in the group I am sure 5 would agree to helping...

[IXP]

Actually, the test would be much simpler is you just picked the one best performer among your TB friends. Having 5 would only complicate matters.

IXP

[Plastictowel]

Gr8wight, I already said if she passes the test, I'll deeply consider my thoughts on "reality." But like Crowbot stated, if she can't name the city I'm from, because it's "trivial," but god strongly wants me to believe....it's just another contradiction.

And you dont follow the catholic church? YET, you say muslims are going to hell, yet to quote you.

My power will work with believers with Christians that truely know what God brings to peoples life. I hope I can provide this healing to many of the african nations...but I must have the resources and tools to do such hence my interest in the challenge..

Christians are okay, a form of catholisism.
Yeah, okay.

[jstro]

I will bring it up with my study group on Monday they all have felt the experience I am describing. You think 5 is a suitable number? There are a dozen of us in the group I am sure 5 would agree to helping...

To be honest, Sally, I think you could put together a simpler protocol using just 1 believer. However, if you feel that two or more believers are required to be gathered together in order to detect your presence, then that will have to be part of the protocol. I'd say the fewer, the better, from a simplicity standpoint.

[Sally]

You may be surprised. Would you like to discuss the types of controls that might be necessary to ensure the test is valid?


I believe the first step would be to indentify those from my community that can attest to His presence within me. I plan to do that monday.

Secondly I am not sure of the protocals of a self adminstered test. I would want to sort out the logistics of how close I need for His presence to be felt. How to have the group experience happen if I am not in direct contact (ie. this is not something I turn on or off but something that is shared with the group through talking of experiences or brought on by a tramatic event that God makes his presence known through me...)

[Cuddles]

By the way, Islam was spread throughout Africa by Islamic traders a thousand years ago. So, if Muslims are rejecting God, and Iraq is unsuitable for that reason, Africa is unsuitable as well.

More to the point, I was under the impression that Xians, Muslims, Jews and several others all worship the same god, just with different prophets and messiahs scattered around the place. So the people in Iraq are actually worshiping exactly the same god that is punishing them for not worshiping him. I love religion.:boggled:

[Plastictowel]

I believe the first step would be to indentify those from my community that can attest to His presence within me. I plan to do that monday.

Secondly I am not sure of the protocals of a self adminstered test. I would want to sort out the logistics of how close I need for His presence to be felt. How to have the group experience happen if I am not in direct contact (ie. this is not something I turn on or off but something that is shared with the group through talking of experiences or brought on by a tramatic event that God makes his presence known through me...)

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph I'm right again. I knew these people only felt his intense power in you when you discussed events that shake your own mortality.
How can you be this blind Sally?
The test is not going to allow you all to just sit in a circle saying "I almost died" than ranom joe schmo "I FEEL THE LORD"
Randi: Oh that's proof, heres $1million!!!!

I can't believe you are so sick in the head you actually think that discussing events that are certainly tramatic to the brain, like near death encounters, has led you to believe the lord is trying to use you as his new messiah. Wow. Just wow.

[Gr8wight]

I will bring it up with my study group on Monday they all have felt the experience I am describing. You think 5 is a suitable number? There are a dozen of us in the group I am sure 5 would agree to helping...

That is a detail that will have to be worked out in negotiations with the JREF after an application has been submitted. Your application is required to include a short description of your claim, and a short description of how you propose to demonstrate your claim, as well as a statement about what kind of accuracy you expect to be able to attain. For example, your application might read:

"I claim that people, supplied by me, can sense my presence in a room without the use of traditional senses. To demonstrate this, I propose a test in which people are asked to identify whether or not I am in a room when my presence (or lack thereof) is concealed by a screen. I anticipate a better than 80% success rate in this test."

Short, and sweet, and to the point. I think your application would be accepted very quickly. After that happens, you and the JREF would work together to design a test that would be representative of your claim while controling for any possible mundane explanations. This would include the number of people involved, and how many trials would be required to ensure the result was statistically significant.

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

The Pope is human therefore the Pope is falliable along with the Bishops, Priests, etc, etc etc...God works and speaks directly to his believers...
So God works and speaks directly to his believers, but his believers are falliable and can misinterpret, is that correct? So seeing as you are also human and falliable, you may also be misinterpreting, and therefore incorrect?

Is that right?

[Sally]

Actually, the test would be much simpler is you just picked the one best performer among your TB friends. Having 5 would only complicate matters.

IXP


My main goal is to prove that the higher power is present and thought with showing that it affects more than one person would be important. I have someone very close that has felt what I am trying to describe many times that could easily be used I just want to asure I remove an bias from having someone so close partake.

[drkitten]

More to the point, I was under the impression that Xians, Muslims, Jews and several others all worship the same god.

Your impression is not generally shared, either among Islam or among Christianity. If I claimed to be a loyal follower of the true ruler of England -- but then it turned out that I meant King Arthur, 'cause I'm barking mad -- does that mean I'm "really" a supporter of QEII? Or does it just mean that I'm barking mad?

[Gr8wight]

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph I'm right again. I knew these people only felt his intense power in you when you discussed events that shake your own mortality.
How can you be this blind Sally?
The test is not going to allow you all to just sit in a circle saying "I almost died" than ranom joe schmo "I FEEL THE LORD"
Randi: Oh that's proof, heres $1million!!!!

I can't believe you are so sick in the head you actually think that discussing events that are certainly tramatic to the brain, like near death encounters, has led you to believe the lord is trying to use you as his new messiah. Wow. Just wow.

Not helping, PT. Many people here probably agree with you, but what you are doing is working against the principles of the JREF right now.

[jstro]

Secondly I am not sure of the protocals of a self adminstered test. I would want to sort out the logistics of how close I need for His presence to be felt. How to have the group experience happen if I am not in direct contact (ie. this is not something I turn on or off but something that is shared with the group through talking of experiences or brought on by a tramatic event that God makes his presence known through me...)

Sally, keep in mind that if they can detect your presence by natural means, the test is useless for proving supernatural ability, and a waste of time for JREF and all involved. I'd suggest that the first thing you try is see if they can detect you when they cannot see, feel, hear, or smell you at all. If you get past that test, please let us know!

[Nucular]

Just a quick note re: the pretesting Sally - sometimes the JREF require three notarised affadavits (http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#4.8) from professional people (follow the link) affirming that they have seen you do what you claim.

You might save some time and hassle, if you're having some trial runs anyway, to see if you can get those in the bag too.

Edit: unless it's more sensible to do this after protocol negotiations with the JREF? I'm not sure. Any thoughts, anyone?

[Sally]

Let me try to clear some things up.

I stated in the beginning and a couple times since God talks to me. I know that sounds insane and like I am hearing a voices but it is not how it sounds.

I do not sit back and have a conversation with God, yes I do pray and I do ask Him for guiadance but that guidance shows itself in various ways. Never does a voice enter my head to tell me to go bust down a Dam and free the water creatures or anything like that.

Therefore I can not sit back on my couch and ask for someones birth city or lottery numbers it is not how God shows Himself in my life.


Here is a concrete example that hopefully will help:

I have been to a few millitary events in the past few years many soliders in attendance are do for immediate deployment to Iraq. I have spoken to these soliders on a one to one basis I know that these men are truly touched with God I feel his presence inside Me. I pray for them I hug them...I cry with them..There fears there anger disappears with His presence in me they report of how they have a sense of purpose now. A sense of direction that is also how i know what is happening in Iraq is God's plan...

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

I have been to a few millitary events in the past few years many soliders in attendance are do for immediate deployment to Iraq. I have spoken to these soliders on a one to one basis I know that these men are truly touched with God I feel his presence inside Me. I pray for them I hug them...I cry with them..There fears there anger disappears with His presence in me they report of how they have a sense of purpose now. A sense of direction that is also how i know what is happening in Iraq is God's plan...
Sally, this is a very nice story, and it's obvious that you've done a good service to these soldiers.

The problem is, everything you mentioned can be explained without having a deity involved. This is why skeptics are hard to convince.. If there is an explanation which fits, which does not involve supernatural causes, skeptics will choose that explanation.

Having said that, I do hope your challenge is accepted and that you carry through with the test. I know you probably don't believe it, but many of us are open to concrete evidence which could change our minds. We just haven't seen that evidence yet.

[Plastictowel]

I don't see how that is concrete of anything but just more believers, believing...

[Sally]

Sally, keep in mind that if they can detect your presence by natural means, the test is useless for proving supernatural ability, and a waste of time for JREF and all involved. I'd suggest that the first thing you try is see if they can detect you when they cannot see, feel, hear, or smell you at all. If you get past that test, please let us know!


I have only affected strangers with the power of touch. I have been out in clubs and been able to stop fights through prayer and touch..I have affected soliders off to the war with words and touch...

Those that I have talked to about my experience have felt it without touch..the subject in my mind feels it now when we are in situations when I also feel it he reports of the presence and knows of it without me telling him or touching him...I am working to find a way to demonstrate that with the earlier method I have to see over what distance, through what materials..etc that he feels the power inside of me

[jstro]

I'd suggest that personal testimony not pertaining to the test is a waste of your time on this forum, Sally. Nobody here appears to believe what you believe, and this forum is not for proselytizing anyway. My $0.02 is that it's probably best just to stick to dicussing the actual application / protocol.

[Sally]

Sally, this is a very nice story, and it's obvious that you've done a good service to these soldiers.

The problem is, everything you mentioned can be explained without having a deity involved. This is why skeptics are hard to convince.. If there is an explanation which fits, which does not involve supernatural causes, skeptics will choose that explanation.

Having said that, I do hope your challenge is accepted and that you carry through with the test. I know you probably don't believe it, but many of us are open to concrete evidence which could change our minds. We just haven't seen that evidence yet.


What I am having a hard time convaying is the overwhelming presence that is felt. I have been with groups that have followed God there whole life have always had them with them..when being with them they have indentified a amazing feeling of power before them it is often undescribable I have had this happen to both I have told to expect it to happen and those that have no knowledge of my past like the soliders..those that just sense it...

[IXP]

When you do this, do you feel a sort of warmth in your Solar Plexus and feel it expand to surround those around you?

I am not joking here. I was taught this by a somewhat New Age therapist, and was astounded to find that it actually works. When I do this, people around notice me and are warmer and more friendly than the usual response I get from others.

However, it has nothing to do with the presence of god or any other non-existant being in me. It has all to do with concentrating on putting on a warm expression and a calm deameanor that others can see in my body langauge.

IXP

[Plastictowel]

Sally, this is a very nice story, and it's obvious that you've done a good service to these soldiers.

The problem is, everything you mentioned can be explained without having a deity involved. This is why skeptics are hard to convince.. If there is an explanation which fits, which does not involve supernatural causes, skeptics will choose that explanation.

Having said that, I do hope your challenge is accepted and that you carry through with the test. I know you probably don't believe it, but many of us are open to concrete evidence which could change our minds. We just haven't seen that evidence yet.

Spot on.

[Sally]

I'd suggest that personal testimony not pertaining to the test is a waste of your time on this forum, Sally. Nobody here appears to believe what you believe, and this forum is not for proselytizing anyway. My $0.02 is that it's probably best just to stick to dicussing the actual application / protocol.


I am asking for any advice by giving my past experiences with God's presence to help develop a test protocal. I am simply stating how it has worked in the past. I know with ones close to me I do not need to speak or touch them I do not know for sure yet on how to place myself in a situation in which God does shine His light for them to experience

[Plastictowel]

AND WE KEEP GIVING YOU ADVICE. YOU AREN'T GOING TO TAKE THE TEST, FACE IT.
If god is in you, the man with the plan can give you a sign for a test that will prove his power, if he has said power. If he can't you're gods an idiot, because he's coming out of your delusional head.
Good bye sally.

[Loss Leader]

I have been to a few military events in the past few years many soldiers in attendance are do for immediate deployment to Iraq. I have spoken to these soldiers on a one to one basis I know that these men are truly touched with God I feel his presence inside Me. I pray for them I hug them...I cry with them..There fears there anger disappears with His presence in me they report of how they have a sense of purpose now. A sense of direction that is also how i know what is happening in Iraq is God's plan...


Sally, I think I've found the problem. The phenomenon you are describing is not paranormal. There is no unaccounted energy, no created matter, no difference in the physical world. What you have described is the psychological process of human empathy. People feel better when comforted. People feel better when they see someone willing to listen to them, to think about them and to pray for them. That's not paranormal - that's normal.

And I can prove it.

I can replace the people in your example with two non-believers. Let's say a Muslim Palestinian preparing to become a suicide bomber and a devout Muslim cleric. These people, according to you, do not know God. According to you, they cannot have God in their hearts because they are not Christian. But the bomber will feel calmer, more peaceful and more purposeful after his time with his religious leader.

As would a Jewish American man being comforted by his Jewish wife before being deployed to Iraq.

Or any person of any religion, really.

How would you propose to distinguish the peacefulness a soldier feels after spending time with you from the peacefulness a bomber feels after spending time with his Imam? I submit that you cannot.

[Sally]

When you do this, do you feel a sort of warmth in your Solar Plexus and feel it expand to surround those around you?

I am not joking here. I was taught this by a somewhat New Age therapist, and was astounded to find that it actually works. When I do this, people around notice me and are warmer and more friendly than the usual response I get from others.

However, it has nothing to do with the presence of god or any other non-existant being in me. It has all to do with concentrating on putting on a warm expression and a calm deameanor that others can see in my body langauge.

IXP

Okay I am not and idiot but I do not know where the solar plexus is. The warmth general starts in the lower belly..radiates up through me others have described feeling the same type of warmth.. That is usually an experience with intense situations more mildly it often just is a wave of calmness of wellbeing washing down on your body..kinda of like standing in the shower and turning it on having a sense of good flow down over your body..

[Gr8wight]

Let me try to clear some things up.

I stated in the beginning and a couple times since God talks to me. I know that sounds insane and like I am hearing a voices but it is not how it sounds.

I do not sit back and have a conversation with God, yes I do pray and I do ask Him for guiadance but that guidance shows itself in various ways. Never does a voice enter my head to tell me to go bust down a Dam and free the water creatures or anything like that.

Therefore I can not sit back on my couch and ask for someones birth city or lottery numbers it is not how God shows Himself in my life.

Sally,

This is a much more reasoned explanation than saying, "God doesn't lower himself to trivial things." A very clear explanation. As for your story about affecting soldiers, it is spurious, and has no bearing on any proposed test.

[Sally]

Sally,

This is a much more reasoned explanation than saying, "God doesn't lower himself to trivial things." A very clear explanation. As for your story about affecting soldiers, it is spurious, and has no bearing on any proposed test.

With the solider story the main point was in the last line.

Never did God tell me in words in my head that Iraq is part of his plan it is all from the feeling of purpose He gave to our soliders the feelings of desire to fufill His will. God has used me to reach those faultering in their time of need and has touched them. Therefore I know what is happening in Iraq is just and part of his plan..

[RenaissanceBiker]

Sally, have you met Pater (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=63782)?

[IXP]

Okay I am not and idiot but I do not know where the solar plexus is. The warmth general starts in the lower belly..radiates up through me others have described feeling the same type of warmth.. That is usually an experience with intense situations more mildly it often just is a wave of calmness of wellbeing washing down on your body..kinda of like standing in the shower and turning it on having a sense of good flow down over your body..
Sally,

What you have described is exactly what I experience. However, I need no god to explain it. What you are doing is arranging that others can see this "warmth" in you by your facial expression, stance, etc., nothing more. It won't work if they cannot see you.

IXP

[Sally]

Sally,

What you have described is exactly what I experience. However, I need no god to explain it. What you are doing is arranging that others can see this "warmth" in you by your facial expression, nothing more. It won't work if they cannot see you.

IXP

This seems easy to test. I have come out of intense situations and had strangers comment about feeling this greater warmth without evening knowing me or from what I know seeing what I was doing..they simply felt it.

I will do a pre test to ones that have felt it before next week. To see if they can feel the presence while blindfold and silent...

[IXP]

Great, you are on the right track. If possible, have an impartial observer take part.

IXP

[Gr8wight]

I am asking for any advice by giving my past experiences with God's presence to help develop a test protocal. I am simply stating how it has worked in the past. I know with ones close to me I do not need to speak or touch them I do not know for sure yet on how to place myself in a situation in which God does shine His light for them to experience

Do you understand that, in order for a test to be considered valid, there must be no mundane way for the person to know whether or not you are in the room?

Here is a suggestion:

We prepare a room, with a chair behind a screen. At the beginning of a trial, we flip a coin to determine whether or not you will be present in the room. If you are present in the room, you will sit in the chair, and be as quiet as you can. One of your supplied assistants will enter the room. There will be some music playing at a moderately low volume to mask any incidental sounds. He or she will do whatever is necessary to put himself or herself into the appropriate state of mind to receive the awareness of your presence. You will do whatever you need to do to fill the room with "the presence of God" or whatever it is that will make the person aware of you. After an agreed upon length of time, the person will leave the room, and indicate whether or not he or she believed you were present. Their response will be recorded.

A JREF observer in the room will watch to ensure that no physical signals might have been exchanged, like a sound or movement that might have announced your presence. This observer will declare the trial valid or invalid.

If you are not present in the room, you will occupy yoursself with a crossword puzzle, or somehow otherwise occupy your mind with thoughts other than of the person in the room. The trial will be identical from the point of view of that person.

The trial will be repeated as many times as has been previously agreed upon by you and the JREF.

How does that sound to you?

[Sally]

Here is what I am thinking for the inital test just to get a feel of how this works without a shared experience or touching of those involved.

I am going to go to my group of the dozen with blindfolds this Monday. I will ask them to pray for guidance in God in helping His presence manifest itself within me. As the group is silently praying for His overwhelming power I will arrange to be inside the room our outside some distance away. After a few random trials (5 or so) it can be determined if they felt his presence at all was I inside the room was I outside the room at those times. Did they feel something the whole time was it diminished when I was not inside the room..

[Plastictowel]

I can tell you now, it doesn't sound good enough to her.

[Plastictowel]

Sally that test makes no sense.

[Sally]

Do you understand that, in order for a test to be considered valid, there must be no mundane way for the person to know whether or not you are in the room?

Here is a suggestion:

We prepare a room, with a chair behind a screen. At the beginning of a trial, we flip a coin to determine whether or not you will be present in the room. If you are present in the room, you will sit in the chair, and be as quiet as you can. One of your supplied assistants will enter the room. There will be some music playing at a moderately low volume to mask any incidental sounds. He or she will do whatever is necessary to put himself or herself into the appropriate state of mind to receive the awareness of your presence. You will do whatever you need to do to fill the room with "the presence of God" or whatever it is that will make the person aware of you. After an agreed upon length of time, the person will leave the room, and indicate whether or not he or she believed you were present. Their response will be recorded.

A JREF observer in the room will watch to ensure that no physical signals might have been exchanged, like a sound or movement that might have announced your presence. This observer will declare the trial valid or invalid.

If you are not present in the room, you will occupy yoursself with a crossword puzzle, or somehow otherwise occupy your mind with thoughts other than of the person in the room. The trial will be identical from the point of view of that person.

The trial will be repeated as many times as has been previously agreed upon by you and the JREF.

How does that sound to you?

A little better thought out and explained than what I just described so it seems we are on the same track.

Question why do I need to occupy my mind with a distraction when not in the room. I would like to keep praying to God to provide guidance in this test and make it a sucess.

[IXP]

Your group of a dozen. Is that 13 when you are included? Are you a coven of witches?

IXP

[Cuddles]

Here is what I am thinking for the inital test just to get a feel of how this works without a shared experience or touching of those involved.

I am going to go to my group of the dozen with blindfolds this Monday. I will ask them to pray for guidance in God in helping His presence manifest itself within me. As the group is silently praying for His overwhelming power I will arrange to be inside the room our outside some distance away. After a few random trials (5 or so) it can be determined if they felt his presence at all was I inside the room was I outside the room at those times. Did they feel something the whole time was it diminished when I was not inside the room..

How will you avoid them knowing if you've left or entered the room? Are they allowed to talk to each other and come to a group agreement or do they all decided whether you are there or not individually?

[Sally]

Sally that test makes no sense.


I have been allowing His will to work through others to discapline you but I must ask why are you so determined to NOT have this tested?

Do you have some personal stake in not seeing this a sucess?

[Sally]

Your group of a dozen. Is that 13 when you are included? Are you a coven of witches?

IXP

The guys involved would not think so :)

About 12 usually 10 -15 at the meetings some come and go so never a set amount...

[Sally]

How will you avoid them knowing if you've left or entered the room? Are they allowed to talk to each other and come to a group agreement or do they all decided whether you are there or not individually?


Exactly what i am trying to work out right now. How I can get out of the room without them knowing I think I need to be some distance away (unsure of how far yet)

I think let the individuals decide themselves perhaps mark on a paper to be collected by the observer at the end of each round...

[IXP]

Whew, I was worried for a moment there. Skeptics all over the place dropping from mysterious illnesses...

IXP

[Plastictowel]

No, I'm just tired of seeing your drivel, and as I've stated and shown multible times, you keep stepping on your own toes. You bring nothing to the table. You make zero sense. You don't think logically. You're delusional. If I thought in the slightest bit you were a serious person, with a serious power, or serious understanding of God (That isn't just someone branching off the whole catholic tree in their own interpretation) and I really thought you'd go through with this test I'd be all for it. Instead you talk about how iraq is going to hell, so am I, and are so all the non believers on this board. You're arrogant, insulting, and moronic. I think you've had plenty of success already but even having people attempt to help you, when you clearly don't deserve it.

[petre]

Here is what I am thinking for the inital test just to get a feel of how this works without a shared experience or touching of those involved.

I am going to go to my group of the dozen with blindfolds this Monday. I will ask them to pray for guidance in God in helping His presence manifest itself within me. As the group is silently praying for His overwhelming power I will arrange to be inside the room our outside some distance away. After a few random trials (5 or so) it can be determined if they felt his presence at all was I inside the room was I outside the room at those times. Did they feel something the whole time was it diminished when I was not inside the room..

Controlling for sound can be difficult. Skeptics here would contend that they may hear you enter and claim to feel His presence. Perhaps you could have an alternate without the ability to project His presence enter the room some of the times instead of you? It's not perfect (and other suggestions for improvement are no doubt coming shortly), but it would be a fairly good test to get a gague of it.

[jstro]

Controlling for sound can be difficult. Skeptics here would contend that they may hear you enter and claim to feel His presence. Perhaps you could have an alternate without the ability to project His presence enter the room some of the times instead of you? It's not perfect (and other suggestions for improvement are no doubt coming shortly), but it would be a fairly good test to get a gague of it.

The alternate would be a good idea -- but how about Sally (or alternate) enters the room first, then the believers enter and try to detect her? Having her get situated and settled in place first would seem to be helpful in reducing possible clues to her presence.

[nathan]

[ affidavits ]
Edit: unless it's more sensible to do this after protocol negotiations with the JREF? I'm not sure. Any thoughts, anyone?
I think the JREF has asked for affidavits before entering into protocol negotiations. The guy who found random bits of stuff around train tracks come to mind.

[roger]

The alternate would be a good idea -- but how about Sally (or alternate) enters the room first, then the believers enter and try to detect her? Having her get situated and settled in place first would seem to be helpful in reducing possible clues to her presence.Actually, this is a great way to do it if the people don't know her.

Put Sally, or another person (say, an atheist) in a chair behind the curtain. A believer enters the room, prays or whatever, and leaves. They say whether they think Sally or the other person was behind the curtain.

Obviously this can be compromised if the believers know her. A cough, anything really, would be enough to tip them off.

One thing I've learned though, is that Randi is great at coming up with simple tests that control for these sorts of things. Better than a whole lot of us in the forum working at coming up with a protocol. If Sally thinks some variation of the above would work, I'd say it's time to write an application. Of course, testing beforehand is a good idea, but I'd say we have a pretty solid general outline for the skill, and how it can be tested.

[GzuzKryzt]

No, I'm just tired of seeing your drivel, and as I've stated and shown multible times, you keep stepping on your own toes. You bring nothing to the table. You make zero sense. You don't think logically. You're delusional. If I thought in the slightest bit you were a serious person, with a serious power, or serious understanding of God (That isn't just someone branching off the whole catholic tree in their own interpretation) and I really thought you'd go through with this test I'd be all for it. Instead you talk about how iraq is going to hell, so am I, and are so all the non believers on this board. You're arrogant, insulting, and moronic. I think you've had plenty of success already but even having people attempt to help you, when you clearly don't deserve it.

Plastictowel, we will appreciate your help working towards a test protocol.

We may indeed fare very well without your continuous rude behaviour.

If you're "tired" of this thread, consider moving on.

[Sally]

No, I'm just tired of seeing your drivel, and as I've stated and shown multible times, you keep stepping on your own toes. You bring nothing to the table. You make zero sense. You don't think logically. You're delusional. If I thought in the slightest bit you were a serious person, with a serious power, or serious understanding of God (That isn't just someone branching off the whole catholic tree in their own interpretation) and I really thought you'd go through with this test I'd be all for it. Instead you talk about how iraq is going to hell, so am I, and are so all the non believers on this board. You're arrogant, insulting, and moronic. I think you've had plenty of success already but even having people attempt to help you, when you clearly don't deserve it.


You just seem to refuse to accept that those of us in a younger generation have moved beyond the traditional teachings that the church once offered. Yes we still read the bible, yes we still pray, yes we worship in groups but the movement is redefined in today's society.

God's message is still clear and strong in the modern world. Never ONCE did I say people in Iraq are going to hell, I said the people who FORSAKE him will live with the damnation. If the people have a true belief in God they will be REWARDED for there efforts.

The world has changed and with that the teaching of God can change many of us now do not believe sex is a mortal sin, many of us are pro choice, many of us live and thrive in the modern world. Stop putting your preconceived notions ontop of mine.

[Sally]

Actually, this is a great way to do it if the people don't know her.

Put Sally, or another person (say, an atheist) in a chair behind the curtain. A believer enters the room, prays or whatever, and leaves. They say whether they think Sally or the other person was behind the curtain.

Obviously this can be compromised if the believers know her. A cough, anything really, would be enough to tip them off.

One thing I've learned though, is that Randi is great at coming up with simple tests that control for these sorts of things. Better than a whole lot of us in the forum working at coming up with a protocol. If Sally thinks some variation of the above would work, I'd say it's time to write an application. Of course, testing beforehand is a good idea, but I'd say we have a pretty solid general outline for the skill, and how it can be tested.

I believe we were working towards having a group familiar with me and the feeling as being the subjects. So I think with just me and an atheist in the room the test would fail.

If someone can come up with a good solution of how to have me in the room (and alternatively out of the room ) without tipping off the testees I am all ears...

[Gr8wight]

A little better thought out and explained than what I just described so it seems we are on the same track.

Question why do I need to occupy my mind with a distraction when not in the room. I would like to keep praying to God to provide guidance in this test and make it a sucess.

I have no idea how you think the effect works. My thought was simply to reduce the possibility that you were "broadcasting" during a trial when you were not present in the room.

[Sally]

I have no idea how you think the effect works. My thought was simply to reduce the possibility that you were "broadcasting" during a trial when you were not present in the room.

For this scenerio to work I think it is important to have the testees have faith in God and prayer from all parties to make Himself known through my presence would be key. In this set up we would all need to be focused on asking God to guide us in the sucessful completion of this test.

[GzuzKryzt]

I believe we were working towards having a group familiar with me and the feeling as being the subjects. So I think with just me and an atheist in the room the test would fail.

If someone can come up with a good solution of how to have me in the room (and alternatively out of the room ) without tipping off the testees I am all ears...

Sally, do I understand correctly: One atheist/non-believer renders your "feeling" invalid?

[Gr8wight]

Actually, this is a great way to do it if the people don't know her.

Put Sally, or another person (say, an atheist) in a chair behind the curtain. A believer enters the room, prays or whatever, and leaves. They say whether they think Sally or the other person was behind the curtain.

Obviously this can be compromised if the believers know her. A cough, anything really, would be enough to tip them off.

One thing I've learned though, is that Randi is great at coming up with simple tests that control for these sorts of things. Better than a whole lot of us in the forum working at coming up with a protocol. If Sally thinks some variation of the above would work, I'd say it's time to write an application. Of course, testing beforehand is a good idea, but I'd say we have a pretty solid general outline for the skill, and how it can be tested.

I think the idea was that the group would be familiar to Sally, and her to them, because they have experienced the effect before, and would recognise it when it occured.

I agree that this puts greater weight on the controls to prevent them from identifying her via mundane methods.

I also agree that this proposal is well defined enough for an application to be submitted. I think Sally wants to do some self testing first.

[Gr8wight]

Sally, do I understand correctly: One atheist/non-believer renders your "feeling" invalid?

I don't think she meant that. I think what she means is that she cannot guarantee that the effect would be experienced by an atheist, or even someone who is not familiar with her and her prayer group.

Sally,
Be aware that the JREF will insist that they have a representative present, and that the test be videotaped. Do you see any objections to that?

[Sally]

Sally, do I understand correctly: One atheist/non-believer renders your "feeling" invalid?


I have experience with non believers coming to peace feeling the warmth and other things described as God's presence to the believers.

I tend to think this happens more in times of extreme stress when God comes through me and the other believers to rectify the situation of stress. I am sure His presence can be felt with a non believer but not with this type of test.

Its something really hard to put in words and I am trying my best but I think it will be a lot easier to have those that felt it and understand it feel it with such a simple test for those non believers to feel it God would only work through extreme cases...

[Sally]

I don't think she meant that. I think what she means is that she cannot guarantee that the effect would be experienced by an atheist, or even someone who is not familiar with her and her prayer group.

Sally,
Be aware that the JREF will insist that they have a representative present, and that the test be videotaped. Do you see any objections to that?

Not at all..in fact I would love as many non believers to witness the final test as possible that is my goal from doing this is to have those non believers witness the event and see (and feel) the effect of God working tthrough me.

[Crowbot]

Sally,
Be aware that the JREF will insist that they have a representative present, and that the test be videotaped. Do you see any objections to that?

Videotaped...in the complete dark? Maybe with a thermal imaging night vision camera...

[Psiload]

You just seem to refuse to accept that those of us in a younger generation have moved beyond the traditional teachings that the church once offered. Yes we still read the bible, yes we still pray, yes we worship in groups but the movement is redefined in today's society.

God's message is still clear and strong in the modern world. Never ONCE did I say people in Iraq are going to hell, I said the people who FORSAKE him will live with the damnation. If the people have a true belief in God they will be REWARDED for there efforts.

The world has changed and with that the teaching of God can change many of us now do not believe sex is a mortal sin, many of us are pro choice, many of us live and thrive in the modern world. Stop putting your preconceived notions ontop of mine.

The teachings of God change to suit society.

Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd? The inspired word of God, subject to alteration based upon the moods and morals of the time? Like hem lines and haircuts, so too the word of God?

Who made who, Sally? Who made who?

[Gr8wight]

Videotaped...in the complete dark? Maybe with a thermal imaging night vision camera...

Why would it be dark?

[GzuzKryzt]

I have experience with non believers coming to peace feeling the warmth and other things described as God's presence to the believers.

I tend to think this happens more in times of extreme stress when God comes through me and the other believers to rectify the situation of stress. I am sure His presence can be felt with a non believer but not with this type of test.

Its something really hard to put in words and I am trying my best but I think it will be a lot easier to have those that felt it and understand it feel it with such a simple test for those non believers to feel it God would only work through extreme cases...

Perhaps I formulated my last question not clear enough:

If there is one atheist/non-believer present during the test with you and your group, will the presence of said atheist/non-believer affect what you describe as "feeling"?

[calebprime]

Controlling for sound can be difficult. Skeptics here would contend that they may hear you enter and claim to feel His presence. Perhaps you could have an alternate without the ability to project His presence enter the room some of the times instead of you? It's not perfect (and other suggestions for improvement are no doubt coming shortly), but it would be a fairly good test to get a gague of it.

Why not do the test in a recording studio, where the control-room is separated by thick glass from the performance area?

Even people's sense of smell could tip them off, unless there's no air-flow.

Sorry if I missed something.

[Sally]

Perhaps I formulated my last question not clear enough:

If there is one atheist/non-believer present during the test with you and your group, will the presence of said atheist/non-believer affect what you describe as "feeling"?

I honestly do not know. I only have had the non believers talk about the effect when it God worked through a time of conflict or stress. I never tried it with believers experiencing His power and the non believer being around to share there feelings...I find almost all people I interact with that cloesly have some faith in God...

[jstro]

I honestly do not know. I only have had the non believers talk about the effect when it God worked through a time of conflict or stress. I never tried it with believers experiencing His power and the non believer being around to share there feelings...I find almost all people I interact with that cloesly have some faith in God...

It's probably best to go with what you know works. But in any case, you can do a run-through without the controls in place (curtains, headphones, etc.) to see if there is any effect before doing the actual test.

[GzuzKryzt]

I honestly do not know. I only have had the non believers talk about the effect when it God worked through a time of conflict or stress. I never tried it with believers experiencing His power and the non believer being around to share there feelings...I find almost all people I interact with that cloesly have some faith in God...

Sally, in order to ensure a satisfactory test protocol, we must have to get rid of all possible counterproductive factors.

The reason seems simple: You shall perform unhindered.
You will be asked before the Preliminary Test, if you agree with the test conditions. Only with your full agreeance, the Preliminary Test will take place.

Therefore - and since it's still a long way to a test - we should get rid of all possible hurdles as quick as possible.

(Off to work. Later.)

[Sally]

I think I see where people are heading with this line of questioning.

I do not want to leave the out of when testing comes saying that the atheist in the room skewed the results because they did not believe.

I have no reason to think an atheist would have any effect on the believers but would need to find one to give that theory a try.

[rwp]

Hello Sally,

The word, God, has come to mean many different things. Would you please define the word, God? What or who is it that you will prove exists?

[calebprime]

Hello Sally,

The word, God, has come to mean many different things. Would you please define the word, God? What or who is it that you will prove exists?

Let's not go there.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=63207

[Sally]

Hello Sally,

The word, God, has come to mean many different things. Would you please define the word, God? What or who is it that you will prove exists?

My goal is prove his presence. At that time I would encourage you to explore what he means to yourself. I am not here to define God just to prove his presence

[IXP]

Sally,

Just when I thought you were getting in the spirit of it, you say that you are here to prove the presence of god. Don't you understand that a successful test of the kind we have been discussing would do nothing to prove the existence of god or his presence in you? If you were successful, what it would prove is that you and your TBs have manged to convey information in a way unforseen and undetected under strictly controlled circumstances.

There are various ways you might have done this:

1. Some physical means not detected by the testers.
2. "Psychic" powers.
3. A ghost whispered the answers to the observers.
4. God assisted you.

This is why JREF does not entertain demonstrations of the existance of god.


IXP

[jstro]

My goal is prove his presence. At that time I would encourage you to explore what he means to yourself. I am not here to define God just to prove his presence

I hope you do understand that even if your testing is successful, all you would have proven is that there is a supernatural ability between you and the believers group. The question of how this ability comes about is not answered. Yes, I understand that you would attribute it to God, but the test would not prove that God is the cause. Because you believe it to be so is not proof that it is. I can't conceive of a test that would be able to provide such proof. When you write up your application, it's important that you understand this and don't claim that you're going to prove the existence of God.

Regardless, if your test is successful, you'd be that much closer to your goal. I hope to see your application posted soon.

[Gr8wight]

I have no reason to think an atheist would have any effect on the believers but would need to find one to give that theory a try.

That may be difficult, especially if you are in The United States. In many places in the US, atheists do not reveal themselves to believers. It is almost as dangerous to be an atheist in some places in the US as it is to be homosexual.

[Sally]

Sally,

Just when I thought you were getting in the spirit of it, you say that you are here to prove the presence of god. Don't you understand that a successful test of the kind we have been discussing would do nothing to prove the existence of god or his presence in you? If you were successful, what it would prove is that you and your TBs have manged to convey information in a way unforseen and undetected under strictly controlled circumstances.

There are various ways you might have done this:

1. Some physical means not detected by the testers.
2. "Psychic" powers.
3. A ghost whispered the answers to the observers.
4. God assisted you.

This is why JREF does not entertain demonstrations of the existance of god.


IXP


That is exactly why I asked the question if this exact type of proposal we are speaking of was done and done successfully would that open any of the skeptics up to talks about the presence of God.

A couple said it would open them to hearing how it was done and it would set them on the path of further exploration. I know if the test is successful all that is proved is something unexplained happened. It would be my further goal to use the notarity and resources to show that this can happen anywhere and with anyone and that God is the reason..

[Sally]

That may be difficult, especially if you are in The United States. In many places in the US, atheists do not reveal themselves to believers. It is almost as dangerous to be an atheist in some places in the US as it is to be homosexual.


My group is open to all. That is what I was fighting with Mr Towel about we are not the typical church goers. Our goals are to envolve the scientific community the critical thinkers heck I would love for a gay atheist to be the obeserver and be transformed to a believer by the experience...

[IXP]

My group is open to all. That is what I was fighting with Mr Towel about we are not the typical church goers. Our goals are to envolve the scientific community the critical thinkers heck I would love for a gay atheist to be the obeserver and be transformed to a believer by the experience...
Maybe if you hug him enough he well convert to heterosexuality too!

IXP

[Gr8wight]

Maybe if you hug him enough he well convert to heterosexuality too!

IXP

Or agree to go shopping with her.

[Sally]

Maybe if you hug him enough he well convert to heterosexuality too!

IXP

Ha....I hope not..I will have to be careful though I am hard to resist :)

That would hurt our mission. We want to bring God's love to those groups that do not feel comfortable with it know. The scientist, critical thinkers, the gays...

[Crossbow]

Hi Everyone,

I have been lurking around here for some time in hopes of finding the best way to appy for the challenge. Since I am still in the dark on how to do so I am coming here for advice.

A little background to me:

When I was a young child of the age of 5 I was hit by a car travelling at a good rate of speed...being thrown for a distance my head collided with the pavement and pushed me into a blackout (near death) for a few hours. During that time I was overwhelmed with a feeling of peacefullness and sense of purpose a brightness filled the space around me and I felt a power much more amazing than I.

As I grew and learned I knew I was in the presence of God during my time away from the world I have used this experience to reclaim a connection with God and have the ability to receive guidence from Him. He has truely guided my life and has led me to various encounters with unbelievers (which is how I ended up here) The full purpose of His work is still coming into light but I now know enough that He is ready through me to disprove the nonbelievers I know that randi's challenge is part of this.

God will through me make his presence known for all to see, but the skeptics needs this tested what are some ideas from you for convincing you that God is speaking through me...

Sally:

Have you had a CAT scan or any sort of neurological evaluation done since your accident?

If so, then when was it?
And if so, then were the results negative or positive?

Thanks much!

[Sally]

Sally:

Have you had a CAT scan or any sort of neurological evaluation done since your accident?

If so, then when was it?
And if so, then were the results negative or positive?

Thanks much!


I am not sure what was done after the accident but I know a CAT was not involved.

I no longer have the need for Doctors.

[nathan]

I have no reason to think an atheist would have any effect on the believers but would need to find one to give that theory a try.
It is good that you are considering this. It's most likely that the JREF protocol would involve an open test at the start of the trial. In the open test you would be in the other room (or whatever) and the TBs would be told that you are there. They would hopefully confirm that they can sense your presence. Then the non-beleiver would replace you, and the TBs told that. The TBs would hopefully confirm that they can no longer sense your presence.

If that's ok, then you can go onto the blind testing when the TBs are not informed whether you are present or not.

[Sally]

It is good that you are considering this. It's most likely that the JREF protocol would involve an open test at the start of the trial. In the open test you would be in the other room (or whatever) and the TBs would be told that you are there. They would hopefully confirm that they can sense your presence. Then the non-beleiver would replace you, and the TBs told that. The TBs would hopefully confirm that they can no longer sense your presence.

If that's ok, then you can go onto the blind testing when the TBs are not informed whether you are present or not.

I am honestly considering doing craigslist to find my atheist. I can not think of any other way of finding a good person to stand in on my self test.

[rwp]

My goal is prove his presence. At that time I would encourage you to explore what he means to yourself. I am not here to define God just to prove his presence

Could you please expand on what you mean by "his presence"? What would one look for when looking for "his presence"? Earlier you wrote "God is love and God is forgiveness." What are other qualities of God that we could observe? Is his presence observable? What would one observe?

[Crossbow]

I am not sure what was done after the accident but I know a CAT was not involved.

I no longer have the need for Doctors.

Well then, I think that may be your problem.

I read through your various statements which involve people "feeling" a certain way after meeting with you and your various communications with God, but you not posted any information that shows objective results.

Anyway, due to the very subjective nature of the evidence you have thus far introduced, indicates to me that it is quite possible you are dealing with people who are simply humoring you and/or you may be suffering from delusions into believing something that is not true.

In any case, I strongly suggest that you contact a mental and physical health expert forthwith because you may have a serious, yet undetected, medical condition.

If the results come back negative, then you may have the basis for a claim to win the JREF prize money.
If the results come back positive, then you will be better able to handle the problems noted.

Either way, good luck to you!

[Plastictowel]

You just seem to refuse to accept that those of us in a younger generation have moved beyond the traditional teachings that the church once offered. Yes we still read the bible, yes we still pray, yes we worship in groups but the movement is redefined in today's society.

God's message is still clear and strong in the modern world. Never ONCE did I say people in Iraq are going to hell, I said the people who FORSAKE him will live with the damnation. If the people have a true belief in God they will be REWARDED for there efforts.

The world has changed and with that the teaching of God can change many of us now do not believe sex is a mortal sin, many of us are pro choice, many of us live and thrive in the modern world. Stop putting your preconceived notions ontop of mine.

Younger generation???
HA
I'm 20. I doubt you're younger than me.
I see your god isn't informing you about me like you said, idiot.

This is not civil behaviour. Please abide by the Membership Agreement (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=25744).

[Sally]

Younger generation???
HA
I'm 20. I doubt you're younger than me.
I see your god isn't informing you about me like you said, idiot.

Still fighting it.

I stated a page back that you are exactly a person God has brought me to. I said in that post that a younger generation (27 myself) of true believers are defining a new path.

You seem to think religion is only one path the path of our elders. I am here to show you an alternative one.

You would enjoy being part of our group I can feel it..

[Plastictowel]

Where do you get the nerve telling me what I'd enjoy?
I enjoy disproving mental migits like yourself. However you're so lost, I imagine you'll keep it on till the day you die. Too bad there isn't a 2 seconds period before eternal darkness where I can point and laugh and say *HA TOLD YA SO*

[Sally]

Where do you get the nerve telling me what I'd enjoy?
I enjoy disproving mental migits like yourself. However you're so lost, I imagine you'll keep it on till the day you die. Too bad there isn't a 2 seconds period before eternal darkness where I can point and laugh and say *HA TOLD YA SO*


I question your anger towards me. I think you have a much deeper issue with your fear of religion than just myself.

Calling me a mental midget? Pointing and laughing at my death?

How is that productive in producing a challege which may end up in a failure on MY part. I trust God in leading me to victory but God may choose a different path maybe you are put here to help define that Mr. Towel.

Edit:

The irony is not lost on me with your mis-spelling of mental (sic)migit HA!

[Plastictowel]

Mr.Towel lol, I get that my username is plastictowel, but my first name isn't Plastic. Duh.

Yes this one comment from you has made me angry, that you have the nerve to tell me what I'd enjoy. Other then that I either laugh at your ignorance, or frown at your existance.

Your right, I'm in no way assisting you towards the JREF challenge, but for 2 reasons.
1.Others already are.
2.I know without a shadow of a doubt YOU WILL NOT TAKE IT, I know this as much as you know "god is in you." If I had 1,000,000 myself I'd place it up for bet.
Perhaps $20 via pay pal?

[Plastictowel]

p.s. define fear of religion?
I'm not "scared" of it in the least, I think it's ALL fake.

[Sally]

Mr.Towel lol, I get that my username is plastictowel, but my first name isn't Plastic. Duh.

Yes this one comment from you has made me angry, that you have the nerve to tell me what I'd enjoy. Other then that I either laugh at your ignorance, or frown at your existance.

Your right, I'm in no way assisting you towards the JREF challenge, but for 2 reasons.
1.Others already are.
2.I know without a shadow of a doubt YOU WILL NOT TAKE IT, I know this as much as you know "god is in you." If I had 1,000,000 myself I'd place it up for bet.
Perhaps $20 via pay pal?


I apologize if you were offended by me saying you would enjoy our group. We are all in the same age group try to enjoy life (yes we go out to clubs, have house parties, travel, etc) I think you would enjoy aspects of it but I can not be sure.

This is not a game I do not want to "bet" you I want to open minds.

As a so called critical thinker I think you would be a little less hostile about me looking for a method to do so.

[Plastictowel]

I travel and party just fine, thank you. Amazingly most the people I party with share atheism with me.

And as a Critical Thinker I dismissed all forms of religions long ago, is there ZERO SCIENTIFIC proof to its existance. And just like all religions, and yourself, everything is up to prophets, messiahs, and interpretation.

[Sally]

I travel and party just fine, thank you. Amazingly most the people I party with share atheism with me.

I will chalk that up to a victory than.

My statement that you would enjoy our group is correct. Since our groups share many common interests. I would also welcome the difference that your group has into ours finding debates on the difference we have with religion a welcome addition.

[Plastictowel]

We can't debate, you don't get it. There is nothing to debate in my eye. You've been preaching this whole time, you've converted no one.

Fact>Faith. That's it. The end.
I'm done posting in this thread, goodluck in your $1million pursuit, PM me if you ACTUALLY get an accepted application.

[Crowbot]

I was hit by a car travelling at a good rate of speed...being thrown for a distance my head collided with the pavement and pushed me into a blackout (near death) for a few hours. During that time I was overwhelmed with a feeling of peacefullness and sense of purpose a brightness filled the space around me and I felt a power much more amazing than I.

Here is one of the lines I was thinking on. Go to the most war ravaged struggling part of the third world and have my light shine onto the masses and witness as they are nurished and peaceful and happy. As they lay down their weapons and come into the circle of love..the circle of the holy trinity...

God is overfilling my cup you can not empty Him out of me. I do not need any more proof one way or another.

I no longer have the need for Doctors.

Two words: Baker Act.

[Sally]

We can't debate, you don't get it. There is nothing to debate in my eye. You've been preaching this whole time, you've converted no one.

I do not intend to convert with debate I intend to convert with PROOF.

and if you are not open to debate you are not a critical thinker. So please stop using that term for yourself.

[Crowbot]

I do not intend to convert with debate I intend to convert with PROOF.

*yawn* so where is this proof then? Your "proof" towards the existence of god is that some equally deluded individuals in a dark room would be able to "sense your presence"?

I've also decided to stop posting in this thread as I am getting suspicious that you simply enjoy the attention, Sally. I sincerely hope you seek mental health counseling. Feel free to pray for me, or whatever ritual you prefer...it's all in your head, kid.

[Sally]

I asked others before if I was successful in this type of test would it change there thoughts on the existence of God.

A few answered that while they would not all of sudden believe it would led them to ask questions and be open to the possibility.

That is my true goal to led them onto this path. Crow what would it take for you to start the journey of exploration that is what I fundamentally am getting at.

[jstro]

I asked others before if I was successful in this type of test would it change there thoughts on the existence of God.

A few answered that while they would not all of sudden believe it would led them to ask questions and be open to the possibility.


If that's your personal goal, I would suggest that you'd stand a better chance of meeting that goal by avoiding the bickering and religious/philosophical arguments altogether. As you can see, that's not going to be fruitful here. Instead just concentrate on putting together a workable application and protocol. You'll win far more converts by winning the JREF prize than you will by bickering on this forum.

[Sally]

You are correct jstro:

Here is where I am at so far.

This monday night I would like to take the group I regularly meet with and devise a simple test.

I will provide blindfolds and some type of noise obstructing device (ear plugs, noise cancelling headphones, rap music blarred at 11)

In perfect theory I would want an proclaimed atheist with me to administer and observe the test.

The group would start as normal we would pray and ask God if this was his plan for us. He would fill me with his light during this time if it was His plan the group speaking and not blindfolded at the time would confirm they felt Him. At this time we would know its His will to partake in the test.

The group would be blindfolded and obstructed in hearing but continuing to pray for Gods spirit inside of me. I would than like to find a random way to pick various locations to be to test in.

1. In the room
2. Right outside the room
3. Outside the building
4. Down the block

At the end of each selected time period (say 10 minutes) the group would give a rating to God's presence in the room.

The results would determine hopefully two things if God's presence can be measured radiating from me and how far of a distance most I be to no longer radiate that presence.

Thoughts Ideas??

[Eternal_soul1981]

hello all, i'm new to this spot and i've been reading most of the posts of this thread and some others. I felt the need to add my thoughts here.

I see that there are many non-believers of the exsistence of God or a higher power. And it worried me to know that there are so many people not aware of the blessings of the Lord given on a daily.

I want all of you to understand that even though there are so many religions out there that claim to have all the answers and all the truths to life and God, or gods, there is only but one truth. The truth is that there is an omnipotent presence in all of us that drives us to live on in our life. It gives us free will to beleive or disbelieve what is real and unreal. But without that presence there can be no life and no existance. Nothing but darkness would be here.

There is also intelligence to this Supreme Being. It is written in the DNA of all things we know. We strive in life to be just like the Creator of All Things. We come up with ideas and draw out a bluprint and create, that which we "will" into being is brought into our wourld. We invent these new things and constantly improve on them.

We set up systems of rule, like the 10 commandments. We build kingdoms, like the Kingdom Of Heaven, and we also make war, like the Holy war faught in Heaven. We condemn criminals and brand them as criminals, just like the striking down of the angels to Earth, The fallen angels, demons or devils. We also pass judgement as God did with Adam and Eve.

When we look at ourselves and the others around us we should see God because His proof of being lies in all of us.

[timokay]

See what happens when you spread fertilizer?

[eri]

Sally, in order for your test procedure to work, you would need someone to verify where you are at what times - you'll need someone impartial with you, and with the group to keep track. Sychronize your watches! For the purposes of this test, it probably doesn't need to be an atheist - just have someone in the room keeping track of times and responses, and someone with you keeping track of times and locations. Decide ahead of time what will be a positive response - when you're closer, should more people react to your presence? Do the test several times (at least 3) to attempt to eliminate chance. If the same people can't identify your presence in several trials, you may not have the effect you're looking for.