the true face of fanaticism

[corplinx]

We were told if we dismantled the settlements and created a Palestinian state that the violence would stop by some.

Others maintained that the problem was religioous fanaticism and would not go away.

Guess who was right? I have always believed the latter, although I have always had a secret hope that such concessions on Israel's part would convince the terrorists that there was a better way. Unfortunately, it was just wishful thinking.

[jj]

Originally posted by corplinx
We were told if we dismantled the settlements and created a Palestinian state that the violence would stop by some.

Others maintained that the problem was religioous fanaticism and would not go away.

Guess who was right? I have always believed the latter, although I have always had a secret hope that such concessions on Israel's part would convince the terrorists that there was a better way. Unfortunately, it was just wishful thinking.

Corps, you're dead right on this one. There's enough hatred in the middle east to go all the way to Pluto, so to speak.

[Jon_in_london]

Of course the violence will go on. Life and death hatred doesnt evaporate with a handshake.

Sharon must be incoherent with joy.

[Jon_in_london]

BTW, has Isreal stopped killing Palestinians yet?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2979030.stm


Three Palestinians from the same family were killed and at least 30 people wounded in the latest attack near the town of Jabaliya.


Didnt think so.

Is this the way a civilised nation behaves?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Is this the way a civilised nation behaves?

What do you call an appropriate response to the recent wave of Hamas terror?

Just curious.

[c0rbin]

What do you call an appropriate response to the recent wave of Hamas terror?

Salt the earth, ***** in all the wells and move to California.

Let them have their holy pile of stones.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by corplinx


What do you call an appropriate response to the recent wave of Hamas terror?

Just curious.

Compare and contrast Northern Ireland with the occupied territories.

Do you think helicopter gunships firing missiles into concentrations of civillians in order to assasinate one man is either moral or effective? What would you think if a British helicopter fired missiles into a catholic neighborhood of Belfast to try to assasinate Jerry Adams, and in doing so killed 3 innocents and injured 20-30 more?

Not only is this immoral but it probably the best recruitment poster hamas has had since........ well since the last time Isreal killed a bunch of Palestinian civillians. In much the same way as 'Bloody Sunday' was the IRA's best recruitment poster.

I would expect Isreal- as a supposedly civillised democracy, to seek the moral highground and restrain itself from bloodthirsty retaliation for the benefit of us all.

Strangely enough, your president and me seem to agree on this one.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

Do you think helicopter gunships firing missiles into concentrations of civillians in order to assasinate one man is either moral or effective? What would you think if a British helicopter fired missiles into a catholic neighborhood of Belfast to try to assasinate Jerry Adams, and in doing so killed 3 innocents and injured 20-30 more?


Has restraint of response solved the Northern Ireland problem?

[RichardR]

Originally posted by corplinx
Has restraint of response solved the Northern Ireland problem? It’s moving it in the right direction, IMO.

Of course, it’ll be a long while before the problem in N. Ireland is “solved”. The first steps were to renounce violence. Both sides in Israel / Palestine need to stop now. Or they can carry on as before with more killings on both sides. But if each side waits until the other side stops before they stop, it’ll never stop.

[corplinx]

Therein lies the problem, Hamas will never stop. Israel has offered peace, a state, and withdrawal from the settlements. Hamas and other fanatics have rejected it.

The palestinian leadership do not control these groups obviously. As far as I know, Hamas has never offered to lay down arms until all Israelis are either gone or dead.

[DialecticMaterialist]

Of course its not religious fanaticism. It NEVER is.

I mean, unless someone bombs an abortion clinic, or bashes a gay guys brains in after attending church. Then religious fanticism is a believable motive.

However when it comes to fundamentalist muslims, its not religious fanaticism, it's that they are "victims". It's politics, its economics, its anything BUT fundamentalist Islam.

And remember the common as dirt apologetics:

- Not all muslims are like this. (Irrelevant)

- There are Xian fundies that are just as bad. (Simplistic)

- There are other plausible reasons. (Spurrious)

- Xians did the same thing 200 years ago. (Red Herring)

- There's plenty of blame to go around. (Dubious/Simplistic)

- Religion cannot be the sole motive. (straw man).


This issue over Israel allowing a Palestinian state will not prove anything. That is because once you've committed yourself to a superfluous hypothesis and justified it with ad hoc reasoning, literally nothing can "disprove" your case. And literally anything can "prove" it.

They could keep killing jews for allah for decades and it will not be due to religious fanaticism but:

-US opression associated with Israel.

-Vengeance for what the Jews DID to them.

-Secret/non reported acts of Israeli exploitation.

-Inertia.

-A few radicals giving the rest a bad name.

Ad infinitum.

Remember to a believer there is no evidence which will distract them from "the truth".

[Gem]

Or maybe the sun hit their head too strong, they go wacko.
Seriously, did you ever notice any problems when humans don't love with a lot of sun shine?

Today's new quack prescriptions for the middle east are gray clouds, rain, storms, and general bad weather. Take once daily and report back in a year.

Gem

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by corplinx
We were told if we dismantled the settlements and created a Palestinian state that the violence would stop by some.

Others maintained that the problem was religioous fanaticism and would not go away.

Guess who was right? I have always believed the latter, although I have always had a secret hope that such concessions on Israel's part would convince the terrorists that there was a better way. Unfortunately, it was just wishful thinking. What are you talking about? It doesn't appear to be the Israeli missile attack against the leader of Hamas, Abdel-Aziz Rantisi, which occured today.

It would appear that not only doesn't the PM of the Palestinian Authority have control of the various Palestinian "terrorist" organizations (a well known fact) but Sharon doesn't have control of the Israeli military.

[Baker]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
BTW, has Isreal stopped killing Palestinians yet?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2979030.stm



Didnt think so.

Is this the way a civilised nation behaves?

You left part the most important part of the quote out “Palestinian officials said”

Three Palestinians from the same family were killed and at least 30 people wounded in the latest attack near the town of Jabaliya, Palestinian officials said.

Of course, the Palestinian officials never lie or distort the truth.
Despite teaching their children to be suicide bombers and destroying Israel.

"Not all muslims are like this. (Irrelevant)"

Umm, that is entirely relevant, especially if one is trying to paint the pictures that all or most or many Muslims are like this.


"There are other plausible reasons. (Spurrious)"
"Religion cannot be the sole motive. (straw man)"

Those two items are very good questions. Are there any other factors besides religion? Economic? Educational?


"Remember to a believer there is no evidence which will distract them from "the truth"."

And remember, some Overdumbs will purposefully bury their heads in the sand to not see all the data.

I'm no believer, but some of those issues, especially the issue of confounding factors, seem extremely pertinent.

-Who

[c0rbin]

Therein lies the problem, Hamas will never stop.

Corplinx, You must apply to take the JREF Million.

[DialecticMaterialist]

Umm, that is entirely relevant, especially if one is trying to paint the pictures that all or most or many Muslims are like this.

Oh really? Gee I make a statement "The Crusaders wanted to kill the Muslims":

Response "I read about a crusader one time that was ok with Muslims, he just wanted the Holy Land and as forced to fight."

That would be irrelevant. As would saying "Not all Catholics supported or went on the Crusades back then."


So nevermind the "liberal" muslims are not what people were commenting on(all 10 percent of them, usually in western democracies) but the 90 percent fundamentalists in the ME. That's what makes it a red herring, exceptions do not overturn generalizations. Neither does invoking a different category then what was being described.




Those two items are very good questions. Are there any other factors besides religion? Economic? Educational?

They could be but why assume so on the outset, instead of their declared motives for which much observation supports?

If some 250 lbs, white pride tatooed skin head walks up to me and says "I hate you cuz you're a mix race mud! Go back to your mud people!"

I don't go "well gee sir, you may really hate me cause you are poor, sexually frustrated or ignorant not because you're really racist."

That may all contribute to that lads problem, but the decisive factor seems at present to be his racist ideology.

Now maybe if I was presented with more evidence, I may change my mind. Perhaps he really doesn't believe in his racist statements, just merely does it for lip service.

Until then though I must assume the obvious, or get into an endless guessing game of "true" and "hidden" motives.

[Tony]

Originally posted by c0rbin


Corplinx, You must apply to take the JREF Million.

What evidence do you have that indicates they will stop(short of israel's destruction)?

[c0rbin]

I have none.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by corplinx
Therein lies the problem, Hamas will never stop. Israel has offered peace, a state, and withdrawal from the settlements. Hamas and other fanatics have rejected it.

The palestinian leadership do not control these groups obviously. As far as I know, Hamas has never offered to lay down arms until all Israelis are either gone or dead.

Let's not forget the Israeli fundies, as I noted in another link, Sharon is boosting his protection, not against Palestinians, but against Israeli extremists.

Yes religious extremism is an important factor in all this, and the killings, as in NI, will go on for years to come.

It is crazy to say that, just because it may not work, we should not push for a Palestinian state. We know that the present path of annexation of the West Bank and Gaza doesn't work too well, and the constant complaint is that most moderate Palestinians want their own state.

What will Israel be giving up? Lot's of rundown trailers that do no one any good, and some 'settlements' that achieve nothing, but cost an absolute fortune to subsidise. Not much of a price to pay, as far as I can see.

There is the issue of water, of course, just to confuse things even more.

I believe part of the reason Sharon is taking his current course is payback for the US taking out Saddam. That's a lot of payback. He also knows that Israel can't afford to subsidise the settlements the way it has been. As their numbers grow, the army is stretched more thinly, and costs rise. This is at a time when the Israeli economy is in dire straights.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

It is crazy to say that, just because it may not work, we should not push for a Palestinian state.

I agree completely. I merely hoped to reflect on the hope many held outwardly and some had inside was shattered by a new wave of terrorism and bloody retaliation. I for one am all for the west sending in advisors now to finally help Israel root out Hamas using western standards of surgical military operation.

According to Hamas has said, the violence won't stop until Hamas is defeated or the jews are gone from Palestine. I think its time for all remaining doubters to believe this is no longer just rhetoric.

[DialecticMaterialist]

Let's not forget the Israeli fundies, as I noted in another link, Sharon is boosting his protection, not against Palestinians, but against Israeli extremists.

Yes religious extremism is an important factor in all this, and the killings, as in NI, will go on for years to come.

I believe I already asnwered this, well sort of:

- There are Xian fundies that are just as bad. (Simplistic)

and

- There's plenty of blame to go around. (Dubious/Simplistic)


Yes Jewish fundies are a problem. Some of them I know even want genocide. However seeing as Israel is allowing the Palestianians to have a state, and is generally more cooperative with the US and UN then Muslim states, they obviously are not as prevelant nor generally as extreme as Muslim fundies in Islam.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by corplinx

I agree completely. I merely hoped to reflect on the hope many held outwardly and some had inside was shattered by a new wave of terrorism and bloody retaliation. I for one am all for the west sending in advisors now to finally help Israel root out Hamas using western standards of surgical military operation.

According to Hamas has said, the violence won't stop until Hamas is defeated or the jews are gone from Palestine. I think its time for all remaining doubters to believe this is no longer just rhetoric.

Id like to highlight the fact that right at the beginning of the intifada, the PA was calling for a team of international observers.
Isreal refused. I wonder why?

Do you want 'surgical military operations' to 'root out' hamas? How is that going to work? The SAS, MI5 and MI6 werent able to 'root out' ANY paramilitary organisations in NI in almost 40 years of troubles. Plus, what makes you think that Isreali military expertise is inferior to any in Europe or America?

The way to defeat Hamas et al. is not by helicopter gunships but by removing their raison d'etre ie. Allow the Palestininians to live in peace and autonamous prosperity and the number of them willing to subscribe to the extreme views of groups like Hamas will drop to nothing.

The alternative to to continue the status quo until Isreal collapses under the strain or to completely eradicate the Palestinian people.

[Mr Manifesto]

What dismantling of settlements? Do you mean the rag-tag outposts that were torn down as an empty symbollic gesture? Certainly, no real settlements have been removed yet.