Ten Commandment Tablets Removed From Schools

[JesFine]

On Monday (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20030609/lo_wlwt/1651598)
A crowd prevented workers from removing the 10 Commandments from a Tri-State school Monday morning.

The crowd of about 400 people gathered at Peebles High School in Adams County, WLWT Eyewitness News 5's Monica Abler reported.


But they were gone by Monday evening (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20030610/lo_wlwt/1652236)

All four tablets were removed by Monday evening from Peebles, West Union, North Adams and Manchester high schools.

By the way, the tablets weighed 800 lbs each. Who picks up the tab for hauling those off?

[SquishyDave]

That's so whacky on so many levels.

For starters someone got upset by them being there, then a whole bunch of people get upset by them being removed.

It's no big deal either way, I am not suddenly going to become a xian just by walking past those things, and if they aren't there I am not gonna worry either.

I wonder though what would happen if someone put 360 Kg blocks of stone with some quotes from the Quran on them on public school grounds, how long would they last?

Free expression of religion huh?

[Bentspoon]

This question was asked in another thread and I don't want to start it anew but this is one answer to that question.

"It's a little heartbreaking," protestor Terry Lewis said. "Our children and grandchildren have the right to read those commandments at any time they want."

Inane and stupid. Why do they always quote the inane and stupid at these protests. Could it be that that is all there is at a protest such as this.

How have these children's rights to read those commandments anytime they want been abrogated. What a load of crap. They can take a bible to school, they could wear it on their shirt, they could write them on their hands like crib notes. Does Terry Lewis really not know this. Or am I right in labelling her inane and stupid.

And another thing. We had a federal court ruling. I understand the concept of civil disobedience but that does not need to be invoked here. There were possibilities of appeal and I am sure they were mounted and the final decision by the lawmakers and interpreters of the law of our free nation decided. So what right do these yahoos have to block the court order.

How dare they talk of their rights while they systematically try to undermine the foundation of this country - that we all have rights.

SquishyDave said it best

Free expression of religion huh?

I would hate to play a game of chess with these religious wackos. Checkmate would be an infringement of their right to win a game.

WACKOS

and I will submit that more than 50% of these true believers could not even answer basic questions about their faith and the bible. It is my opinion.

Bentspoon

[ImpyTimpy]

That's the problem with religous nuts - they're always right and you're wrong because they are divinely inspired and you're not. No argument can withstand the divine inspiration these nuts are born with so you might as well give up trying to explain things...

By the way isn't that the definition of insanity?

[zakur]

This photo shows some of the protesters "protecting" the commandments before they were removed.

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2003/06/10/image557795x.jpg

Marissa Estes, left, 15, Rebecca Mangus, center, 14, and Moriah Tolliver, 14,
protect the Ten Commandments monument in front of Manchester High School. (AP)

[triadboy]

If they would just erect the Code of Hammerabi everything would be alright. It's better then the 10 Commandments and there is no religious connotation.

[SquishyDave]

Originally posted by zakur
This photo shows some of the protesters "protecting" the commandments before they were removed.

I have never seen a more perfect picture of some teenagers killing time during lunch. How stupid are we supposed to be? :mad:

Oh well :)

[zakur]

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/10/commandments/commandments1.jpg
A group of pastors pray around a Ten Commandments monument outside
Peebles High School Monday before it was removed under court order (AP).

I guess their prayers weren't answered.



http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/10/commandments/commandments2.jpg
Dave Daubenmire of Canal Winchester
prays on his knees outside Peebles High
School. Protesters lowered the flag in
the rear to half mast (AP).

Another prayer that wasn't answered. Also, the protesters' act of lowering the flag is in violation of the U.S. Flag Code (United States Code Title 36 Chapter 10), which states that the flag is to be flown at half staff in mourning for designated, principal government leaders and upon presidential or gubernatorial order.

And this just in — charges have been dropped (http://www.onnnews.com/story.php?record=24719) against the protesters who were arrested. Twenty-one people were cited for trespassing. The sheriff's department says the school system declined to prosecute, so the citations have been dropped.

[Ladewig]

I agree with everything Bentspoon said.

If I were a school administrator, I would have tried to auction off the blocks - might as well have some money coming into the school.

[evildave]

http://www.4the10.net/monuments-1.jpg

Here's an even better link about it. It's from the supporters for the grave stones, er 'instructional monuments'.
http://www.4the10.net/saga_1.htm

Who originally bought them and gave them to the school district?
The Adams County Ministerial Association.

No conflict of interests possible there. They make a point of claiming it's for "instructional', not for 'religious' purposes.


How did the fuss get started?

An unmarried man from Peebles, with no children in the school system, writes several letters to the Superintendent of the district proposing the placement of monuments which he asserts represents his religious group, "The Center for Phallic Worship," of which he represents himself as the "Interim Director."


Sounds like a worthy cause to me. Clearly "Love Each Other" is a good message to have on it, too.

Interesting choice of words: "an unmarried man with no children". Seems to me unlikely that all of the "thousands of" protestors who fought to KEEP the rocks on school grounds were married and had children in that school.

My favorite quote:

APRIL 20, 1999

Fifteen students and one teacher are killed in a shooting spree by two students of Columbine High School in Littleton, CO. This tragedy, combined with other high school shootings since 1997, underscores the need for clear moral standards and guidelines in public schools.

The question is asked in a number of places, "Could these shootings have been prevented if the words 'Thou Shall Not Kill' were impressed daily on the minds and hearts of students?"


Yeah. Some tombstones with some old words etched in them would've made a big difference. Uh-huh. The mojo woulda protected 'em, I tell ya!

[uneasy]

Originally posted by SquishyDave
It's no big deal either way, I am not suddenly going to become a xian just by walking past those things, and if they aren't there I am not gonna worry either.


I'm sort of with SquishyD here. If no one has a problem with the 10C there, leave them there, if someone has a problem with them, remove them. I would care less if they are there, but if someone wants them gone, I think people who fight to keep them are jerks. I think it's called "getting along".

[SquishyDave]

Originally posted by uneasy


I'm sort of with SquishyD here. If no one has a problem with the 10C there, leave them there, if someone has a problem with them, remove them. I would care less if they are there, but if someone wants them gone, I think people who fight to keep them are jerks. I think it's called "getting along".

Exactly, getting along.

But it seems to me the tablets days were numbered anyway, because in the US people like to say they keep church and state separate, this was mixing church and state, the people who put them there must have realised this and should have been expecting this for some time.

There are no moral questions here as far as I can tell (non USA guy so let me know if I have misunderstood) the question is, "does this combine church and state, and is that against the law?" My understanding is the answer is YES, so they must go. No moral quandries, no evil men, just the law, and for once the law in a place where it is fairly black and white.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by zakur
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/10/commandments/commandments1.jpg
A group of pastors pray around a Ten Commandments monument outside
Peebles High School Monday before it was removed under court order (AP).

I guess their prayers weren't answered.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/10/commandments/commandments2.jpg
Dave Daubenmire of Canal Winchester
prays on his knees outside Peebles High
School. Protesters lowered the flag in
the rear to half mast (AP).


Anyone else find anything ironic about these photos?

'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

[JesFine]

From the FAQ on the link evildave posted:
Q: Don't the Ten Commandments promote or establish a religion, specifically Protestant Christianity, in violation of the First Amendment?

A: No. Citing Joel Thollander of Regent University's Robertson School of Law, "The Ten Commandments do not reference Jesus or a means of salvation. The only religion the Ten Commandments could be said to be supporting, standing alone, is Judaism." And perhaps even that is stretching some.

The Ten Commandments do embrace the tenets of Ethical Monotheism: The understanding that a supreme Being or Mind imposes on earthly governments inviolable and eternal ethical and moral standards.

Ethical Monotheism is an essential principle in virtually all legal philosophies. This understanding is rejected only by the most radical expressions of secularism.


To me, this sounds a lot like when creationists claim that their "theory" of creationism is science, not religion.

And my favorite:
Q: Whose idea was it to erect the monuments?

A: The idea originated from county-wide concern about the moral confusion expressed by the students in our middle schools and high schools. The students desired clear moral and ethical guidelines readily applicable in all of life's situations.

It was generally agreed that the Ten Commandments offer moral standards which have adequately shaped and guided human communities for thousands of years. With such an excellent model already available, it was deemed unnecessary to "reinvent the wheel." The morality espoused in the Ten Commandments is precisely the morality this community desires to give its successors.


Pretty good, huh? "The kids wanted to clear up their moral confusion, so being good community leaders, we obliged their needs in the only form we could think of -- 800 POUND MONUMENTS."

Amen.

[evildave]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Anyone else find anything ironic about these photos?

'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

Bah! Don't you know the first things Christians say when you quote OT text?

"I'm a Christian, so that OT stuff doesn't apply to me!"

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by evildave


Bah! Don't you know the first things Christians say when you quote OT text?

"I'm a Christian, so that OT stuff doesn't apply to me!"

Dave, you owe a new irony meter, mine just blew up... third one in three months. :)

[JesFine]

Originally posted by evildave


Bah! Don't you know the first things Christians say when you quote OT text?

"I'm a Christian, so that OT stuff doesn't apply to me!"

Wow, even the irony is ironic. Here is a closeup of the graven image those people are worshipping -- I'm sorry -- a closeup of the "monument" the "community" is "being morally and ethically guided by":

http://www.4the10.net/ACTC-10comm-photo.jpg

[EdipisReks]

i've had to watch this crap on the nightly news every night for the past week. i almost had to go to that high school. i'm glad i didn't.

[SteveW]

[

"I'm a Christian, so that OT stuff doesn't apply to me!" [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually, Christ did say "Follow His Father's Commandments" or something to that effect. The Xians regard that law the only OT law still in effect.

However, that being said, I find it strange that Xians, athiests, muslims, or anyone would object to mere words. Big frigging deal. I would rather my kid learn to not kill than have him grow up and support der fuerher Bush in killing Iraqis for oil.

[Buddy]

Steve,

These are not mere words. They represent the rules taken from a religious text and are therefore not permitted on school grounds. It implies that monotheism is the correct way to be, and that implication is discriminatory to atheists and to polytheists.

[Pahansiri]

I would offer the 5 Buddhist Precepts

Panati-pata veramani sikkha padam samadiyami
Adinna-dana veramani sikkhi padam samadiyami
Musavada veramani sikkha padam samadiyami
Kamesu miccha~cara veramani sikkha padam samadiyami
Sura meraya-maija-pama~datthana veramani sikkha padam samadiyami

1. Refrain From the life or any other
2. Refrain from taking what is not given
3. Refrain from Lying, Slandering, Gossiping and Spreading Rumors
4. Refrain from Sexual Misconduct (sexual activity that brings harm to oneself or another)
5. Refrain from Taking Intoxicants


For me as a Buddhist father, an atheist my child who is 5 and seen by all he meets as a very loving and kind child is at a school and most every thing in life here in upstate NY with Children that believe in a God, TV shows, commercials etc. He has been thought to respect and love all beings, when bothered about his beliefs he simple replies I respect what you believe and it ends there. If he sees something on TV he just says “well it’s what they believe”.

I could care less about old stones on a building and care only for the rights of all to believe, as they will. I do believe the government that is in place now is a danger to that.

Just what I believe.

[SquishyDave]

Originally posted by SteveW


Actually, Christ did say "Follow His Father's Commandments" or something to that effect. The Xians regard that law the only OT law still in effect.

However, that being said, I find it strange that Xians, athiests, muslims, or anyone would object to mere words. Big frigging deal. I would rather my kid learn to not kill than have him grow up and support der fuerher Bush in killing Iraqis for oil.

The point here SteveW, is that in the US there is a big song and dance about how

1) They keep state and church separate

and

2) Every religion is given equal footing

This violates both those, it's not really about non xians being upset by them, it's about people saying "Are you hypocrites? Do you have double standards?"

[SteveW]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buddy
[B]Steve,

These are not mere words. They represent the rules taken from a religious text and are therefore not permitted on school grounds. It implies that monotheism is the correct way to be, and that implication is discriminatory to atheists and to polytheists.

And would you please cite me a religion that does not subscribe substantuially to these laws?

Being an atheist, Im sorry buy I cannot object to the basic concept to the commandments. To quote and old adage about E=MC^2 its not only an good idea - its the law!

The commandments, while Judeo-Xian, are still good laws and I have no problem with them being displayed. It is up to parents to put it in perspective. If you have kids that you want to teach the truth to, I leave it up to you to do it, not having the state to fufill your obligations.

[evildave]

Actually, bibles are VERY permitted on school grounds. Any child who wants to can bring his/her bible (or other text) with them and read them to their own content. Any child who wishes to may pray whenever they like between lessons, or during quiet/study time. To the exclusion of the study material if they value salivation over education.

The problem is when the school uses its position to push a religion (even the DOMINANT one in a region) on the student body. Students praying during school hours, on school grounds is absolutely fine and 100% legal. Students or teachers leading prayer using the school PA system is not.

In this case, in late 1997 the rocks are placed out in a prominent position. By 1998, there was (predictably) lots of trouble brewing over them. Initially some of it was humorous, but it probably escalated rapidly once the death threats against the 'phallus guy' and other such fun got started.

Passive as the stones are, they silently tell students: "We're Judeo-Christian here", which is affirming, I'm sure, to the Christians bowing to them, but also an unwelcome reminder that "YOU are out of place here" to anyone who is not a Christian. Especially to those who are mandated by state law to attend school there.

As a ploy to gain political attention, sticking the rocks up is a great thing to do. Remember just last year when the Alabama Judge, Roy Moore, who had a 5,280 pound "Ten Commandments" put up in his court house had to take it down?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cc.htm

It's also a great way to stir up the religious right-wing. "Look, this ancient stone I had carved and erected last month in a publicly owned building is going to be removed! Defend your faith! The heathens and homosexuals are taking it all away!"

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by zakur
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/10/commandments/commandments1.jpg
A group of pastors pray around a Ten Commandments monument outside
Peebles High School Monday before it was removed under court order (AP).


If I were a witness to this spectacle, I would find it very difficult to avoid making a very loud comment about the IDOL WORSHIPPERS. Of course, this wouldn't make my life any easier in the short-term, but maybe somebody would see my point...

As an aside, though, I think one of the things that bothers me most is that the American flag is prominently etched into the stone tablets. Why?

[evildave]

Oh, and don't forget the turkey, er, eagle. Just drive home that it's "un-american" not to be Christian (or maybe) Jewish.

That idolatry suits them.

Without religion, what would all of those people who talk to rocks and venerate them above people be?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by evildave

Without religion, what would all of those people who talk to rocks and venerate them above people be?

Geologists. :D

(sorry, Tricky!)

[Yahzi]

SteveW
The commandments, while Judeo-Xian, are still good laws and I have no problem with them being displayed. It is up to parents to put it in perspective. If you have kids that you want to teach the truth to, I leave it up to you to do it, not having the state to fufill your obligations
1. You failed to understand that the issue is separation of church-state, so the quality of the 10 commandments is not relevant.

2. The 10 commandents are not good laws. There is nothing good about "having no gods before me" or "keeping the Sabbath holy."

3. It is the State's obligation to teach truth to children. If you are suggesting that the State enjoys the right to force our children to go to school so it can lie to them, then you are wrong.

Your comments suggest that you are either a) a religious fascist, or b) hopelessly naive and ignorant. But really, (a) is just a subset of (b), so I suppose you could be both.

[evildave]

I seem to recall (from reading that buy-bull) that not keeping the sabbath was also a capital crime.

Joshua Korosi: LOL

"This photo shows some of the protesters "protecting" the commandments before they were removed."

If anyone comes close, we will throw our Pokeman, or whatever it is that kids play with now, at you!!

-Who

[Nately]

Originally posted by evildave
Any child who wishes to may pray whenever they like between lessons, or during quiet/study time. To the exclusion of the study material if they value salivation over education.

Now, tasty food has been known to make me salivate, but certainly not prayer. :D

[evildave]

Another irony point, by praying to the graven images, they are in fact instructing the kids to ignore any of the "laws" they find not to be politically expedient.