When psychics, etc, realise they're wrong

[jonronson]

Hi all,

I have an interesting idea for a discussion (unless it has been discussed before, in which case, I'm so so sorry).

From time to time religious cults have been known to say, "Hang on. The cult busters were right. We ARE a cult. We'd better stop being a cult." It doesn't happen often, but it HAS happened (I believe the Worldwide Church of God did it).

I've noticed a bit of a shift in the cryptozoology movement --- they put a lot less emphasis these days on Owlmen, etc, and more on giant eels, etc.

So how often do pyschics, ghost hunters, and the such, come to believe they've been chasing a fantasy all these years? Do you know of any occasions when professional paranormal people announce they were wrong after all, and ghosts don't exist, etc?

[Dr Adequate]

Karla McLaren (http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/new-age.html), former New Age author, wrote nine books on how to balance your chakras, mend holes in your aura, etc.

Glen Morton (http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm) is a former YEC activist --- perhaps that falls outside the boundaries of your enquiry, but I like his story.

[Ersby]

Eric Dingwall turned his back on parapsychology and wrote a lengthy article on the subject, although he didn't actually change his mind that there was something to it.

It is common practice among parapsychologists to offer the most fantastic tales of the occult and then refuse to permit any adequate investigation by other people. The British SPR carried out this policy with relation to the cross-correspondence. Even the identity of some of the mediums was secret, and the public was only permitted to know who Mrs. Willett was after she was dead. It was then too late to ask her a few questions. The student will find that every kind of obstruction, evasion, and refusal will meet his request to be allowed to verify the details of the stories in question.

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/dingwall/responsibility.htm

Not quite what you asked for, but it's interesting that failing to find something for sixty years doesn't necessarily make something think the thing wasn't there in the first place, instead deciding the method was faulty.

[Dr Adequate]

Then of course there's our very own Nex.

Dr Adequate asked me to tell my woo-woo story, so tell I shall. It's a doozy, so fetch a cuppa joe or a beer and kick back.

I will ask you all not to ridicule anything in here. Not that I think you will, but I feel better asking you not to. I'm still a little embarrassed about some of this, OK? Thanks.
These beliefs and practices were born of gullibility, wishful thinking, and self-delusion. At least I have the cajones to admit it. :D

When I was a little kid, my parents sent me to Catholic school and Sunday school. I never really believed in the christian god or in Jesus, I don't know why I didn't, but I didn't. The nuns and priest didn't like me much-- even as a kid I had way too many questions. My parents put me in public school from second grade onwards.

Now, I should say that my father is very superstitious Roman Catholic. He introduced me to ESP and UFOs when I was only 5. He used to tell me stories about how there were aliens living under the polar ice caps, and how my grandmother's house had ghosts in it, and a whole slew of other things. My father is a high-school dropout, and a recovering alcoholic and narcotic drug addict. At the time that he was telling these stories, he was using continuously. (Thankfully, my father is 100% clean now)

These stories about ESP, ghosts, UFOs and the like naturally caught my imagination, so all through my childhood and teen years I read about them. I still didn't have any sort of religion, and the primary concept of a deity just sounded... weird. I find it funny now that all these other ideas didn't sound weird to me.

By the time I turned 13, I had quite a base knowledge in the arena of the supernatural/paranormal. I'm by nature an avid reader, and had exhausted both the public and school libraries, having read everything they had on hand about all of this, plus owning many books of my own. I became interested in some of the religions based around ESP and other supernatural practices, mainly Wicca and other pagan religions. I proclaimed myself pagan at the age of 15.

From that point onwards I began really working at things like Tarot, astrology, and ESP. I had lost interest in crop circles and UFOs, although I can't really explain why. I also had a keen interest in herbal remedies.

I went off to college at 19, after taking 2 years off from high school. I lived in an apartment with 4 other people. I did tarot readings for them a lot, and noticed I got "better" at it when I was thoroughly drunk, as opposed to sober. I wondered why that was, and couldn't figure it out. That question stayed in the back of my mind, unanswered.

I had to drop out of school after a year due to financial trouble. By this point I had a boyfriend and we lived together in a smaller apartment. I began going on "ghost hunts" with a mutual friend of ours named John, taking pictures and recordings, usually in graveyards. We never got anything. John insisted it was because our "energy" wasn't tuned right. I asked how you would tune it correctly, and he didn't answer me, just said something about the stars or something. I forget exactly what, because it sounded like utter crap to me even back then.

But, I kept trying. The most we ever got, after over a year of going out every other weekend on "hunts," was I got pelted with a few acorns from a direction where we both knew no one was. Creepy, but out of all that time, it still came up to squat.

I still believed though. It's amazing how strongly you hold onto a belief when you start to see it unravel. The more tenuous it is, the tighter you need to hold on, because if you let go you end up in uncharted territory where you don't know anything, and for someone like me, that's really frightening.

After that, I kind of gave up ghost hunting. I went on one more hunt in an old theatre with a group of "professionals" a couple years ago, but that was it. That one didn't give us much of anything either. Actually, it turned up nothing. Some pictures and video of dust wafting around, that they called "orbs." I hadn't heard of this "orb" theory before, so I pointed out nicely that it just looked like dust to me. They said no, dust looks two-dimensional on film, and this was THREE-dimensional, so it must be "spirit orbs." This sounded so odd I just had to nod my head and walk away, because if I didn't I think I would have laughed in their faces.

Shortly afterwards, I married the boyfriend I mentioned earlier. We're still going strong! :D

I began setting my sights on ESP and "magick," the magical prayer stuff of pagans, witches, and various other occultists. The occult world is a really varied one, and I actually do suggest reading up on it sometime if you're interested in that sort of thing. Just from a psychological point of view, it's fascinating.

I began "training" in psionics, and also working on casting spells and other mumbo-jumbo. I was still using Tarot, but had dropped astrology because I had figured out the Forer effect (though I didn't know it had a name) and was starting to find out that what I was doing with Tarot was cold reading, even though I didn't know that had a name either. I was slowly debunking myself.

The final year of my woo-woo days was almost a frantic grasping at straws, trying to find anything I could to believe in. I don't think it would have mattered what it was, as long as it was something.

I tried ceremonial magic, which was heralded by the Ordo Templi Orientis and Aleister Crowley, but it gave me nothing. What results I got were wholly within my own mind, and I knew it.

I stumbled across chaos magic accidentally. I found it very interesting, as the motto for that is "Nothing is true, everything is permitted. Everything is false, nothing is punished." On the surface, chaos is about finding what works and throwing the rest away. However, going deeper into the theory, it is fundamentally about manipulating belief and playing with your own mind.

I became a chaote, and began playing with the mechanics of my own belief. I created and destroyed more pantheons of gods than I think ever existed. It was fun, and I learned a lot about how my mind works. The downside, or upside depending on your point of view, was that practicing chaos magic brought me to the crux of the whole matter-- reality is truly what you believe it to be.

My personal reality could be changed at will with just a thought. It was exhilerating and scary, and it drove home the fact that it was ALL in my head. I didn't alter reality itself, only my perception of it.

With that knowledge, I began a journal of all my predictions, spells, and ESP practices. Over the course of about 9 months, I kept carefully logging everything I did and the results. After careful review, I realized that all I was really doing was pissing in the wind-- none of this DID anything except make me feel better. It made me feel like I had some control.

So, with that, I dropped it all. My full bookcase-and-a-half of new-age/supernatural books were sold to used bookshops or given away, I got rid of all my "magical" paraphernalia, and got myself enrolled in college. I'm now a nursing student (ADN/RN) with plans to go on and get a Master's in nursing anesthesia. I'd like to be part of medical research someday, and help make our world a better place.

Sometimes I miss having beliefs in these things. It feels kind of like homesickness. But I wouldn't go back to all those superstitions and woo-wooness if anyone paid me, because really I'm much happier now.

This story also explains my signature line, because of my systematic reduction of superstitions/beliefs to the point where there were none.

I'm an active skeptic now because, in training to become a medical professional, I've come to really hate the "alternative" health stuff that's out there. People die every year from scams like these, and I feel it's my duty to actively work against pseudo-scientific claims about cure-alls and snake oil and the like. Herbal remedies really upset me because they contain active chemicals, and can do serious damage. I don't like homeopathy, but at least plain water won't poison someone.



I hope you liked my really-way-too-long story. Maybe it'll help you see into the minds of believers a little bit better. They're not stupid, sometimes they just need something to believe in. ;)

***edit***

I forgot to mention the 3-4 months I spent researching "otherkin." Google it, it's the best.
Basically, "otherkin" are people claiming to be partially mythological, like part-elf, or part-dragon, or part-werewolf, or whatever. I never believed it, but it was... interesting.

[Mojo]

So how often do pyschics, ghost hunters, and the such, come to believe they've been chasing a fantasy all these years? Do you know of any occasions when professional paranormal people announce they were wrong after all, and ghosts don't exist, etc?I suspect that a significant proportion of "professional" (in the sense of "doing it for a living") psychics etc. are fully aware that what they claim to do isn't real. As for admitting it, that's another matter.

Even when they do admit it, their followers are remarkably reluctant to accept this. See for example the Fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_sisters) sisters (http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/Fox%20sisters.html).

And of course, even if believers concede that a specific psychic was faking, they'll say that that doesn't mean none of them are genuine. It is frequently argued that only the frauds put themselves forward for testing. You even get statements like this (http://www.fstdt.com/comments.asp?id=9429) (from our very own Interesting Ian!).

[John Jackson]

Then of course there's our very own Nex.

And Chillzero too: A personal journey from mysticism to clarity (http://www.ukskeptics.com/article.php?dir=articles&article=A_personal_journey_from_mysticism_to_clari ty.php)

I think these cases are quite rare however.

As for 'professional' paranormalists coming clean, rarer still.

There's M. Lamar Keene who wrote the book "The Psychic Mafia" as an example.

[Dragonrock]

How about going the other way? Are there skeptics or evolutionary biologists who were published (or at least well regarded) and then went woo?

I know there are many people who claim to have been skeptics or believers in science who now espouse strange beliefs, but how many of them have proof of their background?

[Meri]

I think these cases are quite rare however.


I wonder how rare they are. I was into wicca for a couple of years in high school. It was a little strange really, it was after I became an atheist, and I never believed in any kind of god, just the magic stuff. After a couple of years of nothing working however, (all I really learned is that meditation's a good way to fall asleep) I just stopped. It was less than a year after that Michael Shermer's book Why People Believe Weird Things was recommended by an atheist at a debate on god my college held, and I got into skepticism and learned why magic doesn't work. And so here I am.

[Dr Adequate]

I think these cases are quite rare however. I'm not sure. Quantify "rare".

The post I quoted from Nex was from a poll I did. Unfortunately, the change in forum software seems to have zoinked the results, but three-quarters and upwards of respondents said that they were ex-Believers In Weird Things. I was, too. Now you're wondering --- in what? No, don't look it up, try to guess.

I'm not sure what proportion of woos become skeptics, but even given the self-selecting nature of my sample, it would seem that most activist skeptics are ex-woos.

[John Jackson]

I'm not sure. Quantify "rare".

[.....]

I'm not sure what proportion of woos become skeptics, but even given the self-selecting nature of my sample, it would seem that most activist skeptics are ex-woos.

I would think a poll on a forum like this one would produce a skewed result though. In general, the percentage of total woos (as opposed to those who've already converted) who later realise that they've been chasing a pipe dream will be fairly small.

I used the word "rare" simply because I cannot quantify it; however, I would be surprised if it was as many as 5%. I just don't see it happening at any discernible level.

[Outhere]

This is the title of a book by Allison Lurie, a book I found enlightening and entertaining. She explores the psychology of True Believers and what happens when the belief system is proved wrong. Many leave, disillusioned, but some grow stronger in their faith, rationalizing to keep their belief alive. At the close of the book, the debunking psychiatrist who was investigating the cult has become their leader, if I remember correctly. I think the book would repay re-reading.

[blutoski]

I would think a poll on a forum like this one would produce a skewed result though. In general, the percentage of total woos (as opposed to those who've already converted) who later realise that they've been chasing a pipe dream will be fairly small.

I used the word "rare" simply because I cannot quantify it; however, I would be surprised if it was as many as 5%. I just don't see it happening at any discernible level.

We also have the directional bias. If 100% of skeptics were converts, and skeptics were 0.5% of the population, then the conversion rate would look like 0.5%, which is pretty rare, when you think about it. But it would be the modus operanus of becoming a skeptic.

However, those are just sample numbers. Who knows what the metrics look like. I'd like to revisit this in a formal sense, and it's releated to my thread about endpoints and goals. I'd like to design a survey to learn more objectively about skeptics and how the public can become skeptics.

[Yahzi]

Jeez.

Nobody mentioned Susan Blackmore?