Sleep?

[Ceritus]

How much sleep does the human being really need? Is it absolutley true that working shift work changing sleep patterns every week is severely detrimental to ones health?

Are naps really worthwhile? Would sleeping 12hours a day in 1 hour portions be better for you than sleeping one 6 hour session?

I am sooooo tired at work trying to stay awake working mids.......

I just need a better plan I think.

[Dancing David]

I think the best answer is that it depends on a lot of factors. eacg personal has individual needs and patterns. Some people adapt to shift work , others don't. While many people can sleep in naps, many can not.
Then you add in the use of stimulants, external light and noise and it gets even more complicated.

There are many good sources on sleep hygiene, as it is called. How many hours of sleep do you get? Were you fatigued before you started shift work?

[Ceritus]

There are many good sources on sleep hygiene, as it is called. How many hours of sleep do you get? Were you fatigued before you started shift work?

I get anywhere between 2 hours and 12hours of sleep a night. I tend to sleep about 4 hours a night on weekdays and 12hours on weekends but when I start off on monday at 12:01 am when I work mids, I dont get any sleep that day. Sometimes I get up right before work then work my shift than am unable to sleep until I finish my 2nd shift the following day.

Before shift work which was about.... 6 years ago I think. I was much younger then being a strapping 18 yr-old I never felt fatigued. I would sleep on average of 5 hours a night sometimes less but rarely ever more.

I have even stayed up for entire 5 day periods just to sleep the entire weekend through only getting up to drink water and use the bathroom.

I have noticed one thing though, when my sleep became inconsistant I began to show signs of depression, but that could be attributed to military life or numerous other things.


Ironically I believe it was the lack of sleep that awakened me to critical thought. I honestly don't believe I knew how to learn or deduce problems until I felt fatigued.

[Orangutan]

I just saw this at the BBC news site you might find interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5345834.stm

:)

[Nucular]

A lot depends on how old you are: amount of sleep required tends to reduce with age. Disrupted sleep patterns can still result in problems, however.

From personal experience, I found that when I was an undergrad and my hours were all over the place due to a complete absence of organisational skills, 'all-nighters' were the only way to get things done, usually the day before things were due in, and on occasion the day after :) (On one occasion, a double all-nighter, followed by a birthday night out, meant about 60 hours with little or no sleep, I thought I was close to death, and probably was)

I discovered that half-hour power naps made me wake up feeling like absolute crap, but that I could actually survive for longer after a short 'waking up' period of staring at a wall and shivering. Ah, good times....

So yeah, anecdotally, power naps seemed to help me quite a lot. I also found that if I had to stay up, it was far harder on me than if I chose to stay up. Nightshifts were horrible - I had a knack of closing my eyes so no-one noticed, but then waking up shouting "Gah!" and making everyone, including myself, jump.

Not a massive amount of work has been done on power naps, AFAIK. I found this study, which I haven't read yet, but which looked into prevalence and effect of power napping, which perhaps you might find interesting: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GDQ/is_2_27/ai_81390108

A former lecturer of mine, Bob Hockey (then at the University of Hull), did some work on the effects of sleep deprivation for the European Space Agency. I only have my recollection of his lecture and a short conversation with him, and at the moment I can't seem to find a reference, but he summed his findings up, in a very tiny TARDIS-like nutshell, as indicating that ability to perform complex tasks was largely unaffected by sleep deprivation, but that the ability to cope with an added stressor was markedly affected: so for instance, sleep-deprived subjects could still operate a complex control panel with similar efficiency to rested ones, but as soon as a simulated stressor was introduced (e.g. an alarm going off, and an extra thing to think about), everything went downhill for the people who had had no sleep.

Sleep disruption is an important aspect of depression, one of those vicious circles: people who are depressed often have disrupted sleep, but disrupted sleep can make your mood suffer... etc.

[alfaniner]

(Yawwwwnnnnnnn...):jaw-dropp

[calebprime]

That was a lovely post, nucular.

Ah, back in the day my friend and I would have to work long hours in the film-scoring biz. This meant working 12-hour days for about a week, falling behind on the project, and ending up with a 1-3 day marathon. Then binging on food and other stupid pleasures. No drugs except caffeine and fear. If you didn't get the project done on time, you would never work for those people again.

This pattern went on for 10 years. Not good for the nerves!

My all-time record was around 70 hours.

When I went 70 hours, I:

1) began to think I could see 360 degrees, i.e. behind my back.
2) jumped out of my car and started screaming at someone who was tailgaiting me, instead of simply pulling over.
3) burst into tears at the sight of a rose bush. So, so beautiful!
4) was incapable of writing anything decent by the end.

I like nucular's point about being able to function in situations without distraction, and becoming very, very brittle around little things going wrong. But my main experience is that you need sleep to be creative. I have one good idea per day, after a good night's sleep.

[Alareth]

What is this "sleep" thing you speak of?

[casebro]

Ceritus, I'd say you ought to get on a steady schedule, i.e., sleeping from 9a.m. to 4 p.m., seven days a week.

Other than that, you do need sleep in about 90 minute chunks. It takes that long for a whole sleep cycle of all the various 'brain wave's'- alpha, beta, rem, etc. I notice that if I wake during the night, it's in multiples of about 1:45. So I don't go back to bed unless I've got that much time. Naps are different, 15 minutes helps with daytime grogginess.

[Cuddles]

A factor which is starting to be seen as much more important than before is when you sleep. Some people naturally wake up at 6AM while others wake up at 11AM. There is more evidence being gathered that suggests forcing your body to sleep at the wrong time has serious effects, no matter how long you sleep for. I defintately agree with this (anecdoteally of course), since if I get up before 10 or 11 I will feel tired for the rest of the day, whereas if I get up later I can carry on until silly times in the morning. http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19125672.000-teenagers-lost-in-time.html

Also, altering your sleep pattern can cause problems. It seems that shift workers who regularly change their sleeping hours are significantly less healthy than people who work constant hours. Although I must admit I'm a little skeptical about this and have to wonder how much of this could be due to people pulling sickies because they feel tired or want to socialise.

[HeyLeroy]

(Yawwwwnnnnnnn...):jaw-dropp

Dirty BASTAGE!!:D

Polyphasic Sleep (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLR,GGLR:2006-08,GGLR:en&q=da+vinci+sleep+patterns)

(ETA) I experimented with this years ago, but it's dang difficult to adapt to this.

[Dogdoctor]

A long time ago I heard a mention that we needed about 4 hours a night. Having to do with the time it takes for rem sleep to occur. That seems about right to me. I used to sleep very well. I could lay down and be asleep in 1 or 2 minutes. I needed only about 4.5 hours to be completely normal (as normal as I could be). Rarely I could sleep longer but would end up feeling tired if I did. Now I sleep about 5 to 6 hours and if I get less than 5 hours I will need to nap at noon or be tired.

[Boo]

After 20 years of EMS and shift work I have no sleep pattern. I still sleep more restfully during the day i.e. I find naps more restorative then a 'full' night sleep.

My personal record stands at 96 hours. Because I was in a controlled enviroment I don't recall any hallucinatory phase. After 72 hours I was numb and felt fine. It's only as I got older that I began to notice a decline in my ability to to preform difficult tasks on less then 2 hours of sleep.

That is now my standard, 2 hours out of 24 and I can function at about 95% capacity.




BTW, having been in your situation, try sleeping in 2-4 hour naps throughout a 24-48 hour cycle and caffiene stops working after a certain point.



Boo

[SteveGrenard]

A long time ago I heard a mention that we needed about 4 hours a night. Having to do with the time it takes for rem sleep to occur. That seems about right to me. I used to sleep very well. I could lay down and be asleep in 1 or 2 minutes. I needed only about 4.5 hours to be completely normal (as normal as I could be). Rarely I could sleep longer but would end up feeling tired if I did. Now I sleep about 5 to 6 hours and if I get less than 5 hours I will need to nap at noon or be tired.

In normal individuals who do not have arousals from sleep, REM occurs every 90 minutes, 3 to 4 times a night not every 4 hours. In 4 - 4.5 hrs one normally would have 2 REM periods. The first REM period is normally short and they get longer as the night goes on with the longest one being the last one.

Shift workers have circadian rhythm problems and should:

a) be tested in a sleep lab if possible

b) see a doctor associated with such a center for possible
ways of dealing with the complaints in the OP.

If your night shift works involving driving or operating critical equipment or performing critical tasks one could cause serious problems, some of which could be fatal
(e.g. MVAs).

[Dancing David]

I get anywhere between 2 hours and 12hours of sleep a night. I tend to sleep about 4 hours a night on weekdays and 12hours on weekends but when I start off on monday at 12:01 am when I work mids, I dont get any sleep that day. Sometimes I get up right before work then work my shift than am unable to sleep until I finish my 2nd shift the following day.

That would indicate a fairly disturbed sleep pattern. But individuals do vary in thier need for sleep.
One of the keys to healthy sleep is to try to wake at the same time every day, allegedly that is when the circadian clock is set. You also want to avoid stimulants late in your 'day'. They will mess with your sleep cycle.
Trying to maintain a 'regular schedule' on your days off can confuse the body.

But each individual is very different, i can function on five hours of sleep, and can function with irregular chunks of sleep, as long as I get eight hours in a twenty four hour periof I can function, my minimum being five. Some people have to go to bed at the same time very night and wake at the same time very day.


Before shift work which was about.... 6 years ago I think. I was much younger then being a strapping 18 yr-old I never felt fatigued. I would sleep on average of 5 hours a night sometimes less but rarely ever more.

that is a little on the low ened, the average is between 7-9 hours. But there is a lot of individual variation.


I have even stayed up for entire 5 day periods just to sleep the entire weekend through only getting up to drink water and use the bathroom.

That is not healthy, were you using stimulants? Was it a persistant pattern without stimulants? That kind of sleep disturbance can be part of a mood disorder.


I have noticed one thing though, when my sleep became inconsistant I began to show signs of depression, but that could be attributed to military life or numerous other things.

I think disturbed sleep is the eventual driving force behind depression.



Ironically I believe it was the lack of sleep that awakened me to critical thought. I honestly don't believe I knew how to learn or deduce problems until I felt fatigued.

Cool, I can't think very well when I am tired, so I tend to train my patterns to carry through when I am tired. I recently left crazy call shift work. Yay!

[Dancing David]

In normal individuals who do not have arousals from sleep, REM occurs every 90 minutes, 3 to 4 times a night not every 4 hours. In 4 - 4.5 hrs one normally would have 2 REM periods. The first REM period is normally short and they get longer as the night goes on with the longest one being the last one.

Shift workers have circadian rhythm problems and should:

a) be tested in a sleep lab if possible

b) see a doctor associated with such a center for possible
ways of dealing with the complaints in the OP.

If your night shift works involving driving or operating critical equipment or performing critical tasks one could cause serious problems, some of which could be fatal
(e.g. MVAs).

Sleep labs rock!

I am very happy to have my severe sleep apnea treated.

[Dogdoctor]

In normal individuals who do not have arousals from sleep, REM occurs every 90 minutes, 3 to 4 times a night not every 4 hours. In 4 - 4.5 hrs one normally would have 2 REM periods. The first REM period is normally short and they get longer as the night goes on with the longest one being the last one.

Shift workers have circadian rhythm problems and should:

a) be tested in a sleep lab if possible

b) see a doctor associated with such a center for possible
ways of dealing with the complaints in the OP.

If your night shift works involving driving or operating critical equipment or performing critical tasks one could cause serious problems, some of which could be fatal
(e.g. MVAs).

It wasn't the length of time to reach rem but to have enough rem and enough other stages of sleep. However looking around on the internet, it sounds like some people only need 3 hours of sleep.
What is a MVA?

[SteveGrenard]

MVA=Motor Vehicle Accident(s)

People who say they can sleep only 3 or 4 hrs out of 24 and can function perfectly are usually overrating their ability to do so. Hand-eye coordination tests and
driving simulators as well as a standard procedure done in the sleep lab known as the
Maintenance of Wakefulness Testing (MWT) indicates this.

[SteveGrenard]

Sleep labs rock!

I am very happy to have my severe sleep apnea treated.

Sleep apnea is one of the most common things tested in the lab and is one of the most common causes of sleeplessness. It should be ruled out before getting drug treatment for insomnia.

[Jeff Corey]

Anyone here have a hypnopompic or hypnogogic sleep experience?
After my wife's grandmother died, she experienced a weird visitation from her grandmother just after she went to bed and fell asleep.
"Thatsa okay, Elena."she said in her Sicilian accent.
Freaked her out.
Years later, Dr, Robert Baker addressed the NY Area Skeptics and discussed alll these these phenonema and she said, "*****! And I thought I was crazy!'

[falzer]

Anyone here have a hypnopompic or hypnogogic sleep experience?


I've had a few episodes of hypnagogic paralysis, usually with a strong vibration feeling and usually with a feeling of some "presence" nearby. They didn't spook me out at the time because I already knew a bit about sleep paralysis.

[bigred]

I think the best answer is that it depends on a lot of factors. eacg personal has individual needs and patterns. Good point; about sums it up.

I think "bouncing around" in that regard is usually and probably the worst way to go though. Our bodies don't like their internal clocks, rhythms etc thrown off.

Course I say this as I type away in the middle of the night and I'm inexplicably wide awake even after 3 beers :(

[asthmatic camel]

I've had a few episodes of hypnagogic paralysis, usually with a strong vibration feeling and usually with a feeling of some "presence" nearby. They didn't spook me out at the time because I already knew a bit about sleep paralysis.I frequently experience exactly the same thing and have often wondered what causes the vibration feeling. Anybody know?

[Just thinking]

I feel good with 8 or so hours of sleep, but what I have very much difficulty with is early morning activity. My best hours are from about 3 pm to about 3 am. I have never been and will probably never be a morning person -- I'm a late afternoon to late evening person. This was also clearly documented when I worked a 2nd shift for about a month at a job where I usually worked the 1st shift. It was my best month ever.

[calebprime]

After 20 years of EMS and shift work I have no sleep pattern. I still sleep more restfully during the day i.e. I find naps more restorative then a 'full' night sleep.

My personal record stands at 96 hours. Because I was in a controlled enviroment I don't recall any hallucinatory phase. After 72 hours I was numb and felt fine.



Boo

Oh. My. God. 96 hours? Boots are made for wakin'!




I think disturbed sleep is the eventual driving force behind depression.


Cool, I can't think very well when I am tired, so I tend to train my patterns to carry through when I am tired. I recently left crazy call shift work. Yay!

At least, it's sufficient by itself. (Anyone seen They Shoot Horses, Don't They??)

Anyone here have a hypnopompic or hypnogogic sleep experience?
After my wife's grandmother died, she experienced a weird visitation from her grandmother just after she went to bed and fell asleep.
"Thatsa okay, Elena."she said in her Sicilian accent.
Freaked her out.
Years later, Dr, Robert Baker addressed the NY Area Skeptics and discussed alll these these phenonema and she said, "*****! And I thought I was crazy!'

Two of them. One not particularly memorable. But the other was the most terror I've ever experienced. It seemed to be a nightmare about bugs, but that doesn't capture the horror. The horror!

ETA: oops. guess I meant sleep paralysis.

Sleep Deprivation:
There was some guy who did bike marathons who had some stories about starting to hallucinate--he had intense alien abduction experiences, even thought that the people minding him were aliens. His name?

Drugs:
Anyone have any experience with Provigil (sp?). Dancing Dave? Boo?

Tried amphetamines maybe twice and they made me feel absolutely awful. No variation in my energies or consciousness. Just an unrelenting verbal babble that wouldn't subside and began to become...nonsensical.

Hard for me to understand the attraction of meth. I mean, how can the high be worth the crash? Plus you *know* you're frying your brain.

[Dogdoctor]

In the past I have had a few sleep paralysis episodes and wasn't too frightened by them. I had one episode of waking up to legs not working, I could not stand or walk or move my legs and had little feeling in them. That was spooky but it wore off in a couple hours (except for being scared). I had gone with about 2 hours of sleep (if you can call it that...I closed my eyes and tried to sleep) in 50 hours of staying awake when I was in vet school. Actually I did it twice, once because I had 3 night duties in a row where I actually had to work and once because I was on emergency duty and worked all night and could not sleep during the day. Both times I was able to function somewhat OK but felt like I was walking in water and also felt like crap and felt like the world was vibrating.
Also in regards to meth use, orally it has quite different effects from smoking it.

[Dancing David]

Anyone here have a hypnopompic or hypnogogic sleep experience?
After my wife's grandmother died, she experienced a weird visitation from her grandmother just after she went to bed and fell asleep.
"Thatsa okay, Elena."she said in her Sicilian accent.
Freaked her out.
Years later, Dr, Robert Baker addressed the NY Area Skeptics and discussed alll these these phenonema and she said, "*****! And I thought I was crazy!'

Used to have it about once a month until my sleep apnea was treated. My favorite I asked my wife is she was upset and she asked me why, and I said that the was a 'two donut hornswoggler in the corner'. Sometimes my recolection for the arousing and falling asleep events is very clear, other times it is very vauge, much like dreams.

[Jeff Corey]

...There was some guy who did bike marathons who had some stories about starting to hallucinate--he had intense alien abduction experiences, even thought that the people minding him were aliens. His name? ...

Michael Shermer

[Iamme]

I get anywhere between 2 hours and 12hours of sleep a night.

I've never heard of such a wide range as this. Really? Your range can either rival Mariah Carey's voice, or that of the weather man's forecast when they say that it is going to be partly sunny tomorrow with a chance of thunderstorms.

[Iamme]

Anyone here have a hypnopompic or hypnogogic sleep experience?
After my wife's grandmother died, she experienced a weird visitation from her grandmother just after she went to bed and fell asleep.
"Thatsa okay, Elena."she said in her Sicilian accent.
Freaked her out.
Years later, Dr, Robert Baker addressed the NY Area Skeptics and discussed alll these these phenonema and she said, "*****! And I thought I was crazy!'

No. But I dreamt a tiger was chasing me once, (when I wasn't dreaming about gorillas after watching the Three Stooges 'shorts' that had a gorilla in it) when I was outside and all alone and the whole neighborhood was on fire and nobody else was around, except me and that tiger. Seriously. :)

[Soapy Sam]

Waking sleep paralysis- yes. That's been discussed here previously. It seems very common, in the sense it happens to nearly everyone at least a couple of times. Seems to be a regular event for some.
I'm another lifelong shift worker. My first fifteen years in my job I was on 24 hour call for 28-35 days at a time, frequently doing twenty hours a day with a number of 48 hour and a couple of 72 hour shifts. I napped a lot- often on my feet and often just for a few minutes. It helps.
There comes a point where you are so tired you get scared to sleep, because you know you'll be woken soon and you will feel far, far worse. Then comes the paranoid bit, when you start listening at doors to see if anyone is talking about you. Then you go numb, head full of cotton wool, eyes aching. You start forgetting how to do things- like put your boots on.

When you do lie down, your head keeps cycling through the worries of the day. As you start to doze, part conscious ideas stream through the mind, mixing concepts;- you have to get up to turn off the pump because the blue smell from the starter switch is fumigating the canteen ...and you sit up, realise this is nonsense, lie back down immediately start worrying that you have to get up to turn off the pump that...

I finally learned how to shut my mind down totally long enough to get to sleep. It's a good trick. Sometimes I wonder if it ever restarted though..

[Vox Humana]

I've had a few episodes of hypnagogic paralysis, usually with a strong vibration feeling and usually with a feeling of some "presence" nearby. They didn't spook me out at the time because I already knew a bit about sleep paralysis.
I frequently experience exactly the same thing and have often wondered what causes the vibration feeling. Anybody know?

I've wondered this myself. I have found no good explanation of what causes the vibrations, only that they're associated with the transition from wakefulness to sleep, or vice versa.

Of course, I have found plenty of bad explanations, my favorite being that they're indicative of your astral body trying to leave your physical body. I know that's not what's happening in my case, as I haven't seen my astral body since it got out two years ago this May. It seems to be hanging out in Pittsburgh, if the charges on my Visa are any indication.

Hopefully someone else can shed some light?

[SteveGrenard]

Hopefully someone else can shed some light?


On the vibrations, perhaps. Would the folks here who have experienced these "vibrations" consider the possibility that they could be actually be reflexive shivering triggered by the normal drop in body temperature which occurs during sleep? Or just being cold.

[Dogdoctor]

On the vibrations, perhaps. Would the folks here who have experienced these "vibrations" consider the possibility that they could be actually be reflexive shivering triggered by the normal drop in body temperature which occurs during sleep? Or just being cold.

In my sleep paralysis episodes I had no vibrations but these episodes happened when I was a teenager. When I suffered from sleep deprivation I was careful to over compensate for the temperature to minimize stress so I generally felt warm and definitely not cold. The vibrations I felt were more like a sensation that the whole world was vibrating and I was only feeling that and not vibrating myself. It could have been from massive doses of caffeine however as I continually drank coffee.

[Nucular]

Re: hypnopompic/hypnogogic hallucinations, I've had a fair few.

When drifting off to sleep, I quite often hear noises, usually like a distant bustling market and church bells. Presumably from a past life.

But quite often I wake up hallucinating wildly - sometimes these are very real and plausible things; sometimes geometric pattens spreading on the ceiling, as per Aldous Huxley's mescaline experiences; and very often I'll notice with horror that my pillow is crawling with wasps, or that my bed is filled with beetles.

Once I was actually woken (so it appeared to me) by an old lady leaning right over me saying "OoooooOOOOOoooooo". Quite freaky.

I can usually watch them with interest once I've realised what's going on, and see them slowly fade. Sometimes I can sort of keep them going for some minutes by laying very stilly and just watching. However, the insect ones always have me leaping out of bed shouting before I know what's going on.



The thing that makes working late the hardest, I find (and I probably shouldn't share this with people who also have to work strange hours), is the intrusive memory of that Simpsons episode where Bart has to get up in the middle of the night to help Skinner catalogue his stargazing. The radio alarm wakes him up, and says

Well, it's 4.30am, and time for the news... except there is no news yet, because everyone's still asleep in their comfy, comfy beds. Good night...

Gets me every time! I'm yawning now!

[Nucular]

Btw, if anybody has weird sleep stuff going on, here's a link to a questionnaire study going on about it. Nothing to do with me, I just found it online: http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/spquest01.html

[Obsequious]

Does anyone else have problems with regular sleeping cycle that is simply out of phase with the location?

These days, I cannot fall asleep before 2 am on a good night. The times I've gone from my home in the US to visit the UK, it's even worse: once I get there, I have trouble falling asleep before 3 or 4 am. Daylight makes me quite sleepy, to the point I have difficulty staying awake without stimulants (caffeine). I feel like my faculties don't start to really "wake up" until around 10 pm, wherever I am in the world. It takes months of rigid scheduling and outside stimulus to shift this pattern and only one night off the schedule to throw me right back where I started. But when I do sleep on my body's schedule, the sleep is of excellent quality, very restful and pleasing.

Have any of you ever heard of or experienced this? Do you know of any strategies or solutions other than incessant, rigid, anti-social-life scheduling, or any places I could look for more info?

[Dr. Imago]

Sleep apnea is one of the most common things tested in the lab and is one of the most common causes of sleeplessness. It should be ruled out before getting drug treatment for insomnia.

Depression, as well.

-Dr. Imago

[Badger]

Ceritus, your schedule sounds (rule8)'d.

Just so you know, you can't "catch up" on sleep on the weekends. Try the napping thing if you don't have a good few hour chunk in which to sleep. Naps are a good thing. Try and make 'em long enough for 1 sleep cycle (typically 40 minutes).

To help get to sleep faster, try turkey. It's got that L-tryptophan thing, from what I understand. Personally, I find a hot bath/shower/hot tub works better (stay in until you feel hot...like you're sweating or need to sweat) as when I get out, my body temperature drops slightly, triggering a sleep response.

I've done 12 hr shifts for 11 years now, and have learned that marathon numbers of going without sleep are not good. Pay attention to your sleep, and you'll be healthier overall.

Caffine takes about 8 hrs to clear from your body, so no pop, coffee, tea, candy, other stuff with caffine (read the lables) 8 hrs prior to you planning to hit the sack.

Exercise will wake you up for a bit. It takes no time to do 30 pushups or squats, or situps. Those brief spurts of exercise keep me alert for about 45 minutes.

Good luck!

[Dancing David]

I've never heard of such a wide range as this. Really? Your range can either rival Mariah Carey's voice, or that of the weather man's forecast when they say that it is going to be partly sunny tomorrow with a chance of thunderstorms.

Well, if you did mental health assesments you might have a wider data base to draw upon, it is not an unusual pattern in the least.

[Dancing David]

Does anyone else have problems with regular sleeping cycle that is simply out of phase with the location?

These days, I cannot fall asleep before 2 am on a good night. The times I've gone from my home in the US to visit the UK, it's even worse: once I get there, I have trouble falling asleep before 3 or 4 am. Daylight makes me quite sleepy, to the point I have difficulty staying awake without stimulants (caffeine). I feel like my faculties don't start to really "wake up" until around 10 pm, wherever I am in the world. It takes months of rigid scheduling and outside stimulus to shift this pattern and only one night off the schedule to throw me right back where I started. But when I do sleep on my body's schedule, the sleep is of excellent quality, very restful and pleasing.

Have any of you ever heard of or experienced this? Do you know of any strategies or solutions other than incessant, rigid, anti-social-life scheduling, or any places I could look for more info?

You might want to consider a number of things:
1. try weaning off all caffine for six months.
2. schedule a medical appointment, it sounds as though you certainly have a disturbed sleep wake cycle. perhaps get evlauated for a psychiatric evaluation.
3. consider a visit to a sleep lab.

A google search on sleep will probably give you a lot to read.

[Obsequious]

Thank you for replying, DD!

My current caffeine use is actually in response to this problem, which dates back at least to elementary school. I tried not to use caffeine for a long time, but since I hit the work force, I haven't had much choice. I'm certain it exacerbates the problem, but there doesn't seem to be much choice if I want to hold down a job.

I tried google searching a while ago, but I'm notoriously rotten at it. Everything I was able to find was for people complaining that they couldn't get to sleep before 11 or midnight. As mentioned, 2 am is my earliest real sleep time (not counting sleepiness when exposed to sunlight). I was only able to find one page dealing with a schedule pushed as far as mine and it was unhelpful and of questionable sourcing. Their only suggestion was for a lifetime of rigid sleep hygiene and inflexible schedules, or working third shift. Not realistic if one wants to maintain friends outside of work, which I do.

I gather that you do mental health evaluations. What sorts of things do you think an evaluation might reveal or have to offer as regards sleep disturbance of this type?

I've thought about visits to sleep labs, but it seems the lab in my area doesn't really cover a problem like mine. At least, their brochure doesn't advertise it.

[blutoski]

How much sleep does the human being really need? Is it absolutley true that working shift work changing sleep patterns every week is severely detrimental to ones health?

Are naps really worthwhile? Would sleeping 12hours a day in 1 hour portions be better for you than sleeping one 6 hour session?

I am sooooo tired at work trying to stay awake working mids.......

I just need a better plan I think.

I feel for ya: I worked graveyards in a factory for seven years while completing university.

Plug for a UBC colleague: Stanley Coren wrote a book about this a few years ago: Sleep Thieves (http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/item/books-978068483184/0684831848/Sleep+Thieves?ref=Search+Books%3a+'stanley+coren') .

However, Coren's a bit woo.

[Dancing David]

Thank you for replying, DD!

My current caffeine use is actually in response to this problem, which dates back at least to elementary school. I tried not to use caffeine for a long time, but since I hit the work force, I haven't had much choice. I'm certain it exacerbates the problem, but there doesn't seem to be much choice if I want to hold down a job.

I tried google searching a while ago, but I'm notoriously rotten at it. Everything I was able to find was for people complaining that they couldn't get to sleep before 11 or midnight. As mentioned, 2 am is my earliest real sleep time (not counting sleepiness when exposed to sunlight). I was only able to find one page dealing with a schedule pushed as far as mine and it was unhelpful and of questionable sourcing. Their only suggestion was for a lifetime of rigid sleep hygiene and inflexible schedules, or working third shift. Not realistic if one wants to maintain friends outside of work, which I do.

I gather that you do mental health evaluations. What sorts of things do you think an evaluation might reveal or have to offer as regards sleep disturbance of this type?

I've thought about visits to sleep labs, but it seems the lab in my area doesn't really cover a problem like mine. At least, their brochure doesn't advertise it.

First off, I need to explain my credentials or lack thereof, I was a mental health worker with a bachelor's degree who worked under the supervision of a master's credentialed social worker. I have a degree in psychology, which is almost irrelevant. I did case management for 10 years, psychosocial rehab for a year, domestic violence for three years and crisis intervention for a year and one half. I just started a job working with emotionally and behaviorally disturbed children in a middle school.

As part of my former work I did assessments, which are structured interview that the state requires people have in service settings. I have done a lot of them, but I am not an MD so I can not make diagnosis, I also am no longer supervised by an MSW, so my thoughts and a dollar fifty will buy you coffee.

It would be very hard to even get an idea of what could cause your sleep pattern without a lot of research and study and lots of interviews with various specialists. A lot of what I think comes from my own personal experience and 15 years of social service work.

The caffeine thing is very important but as someone who has severe sleep apnea I am very familiar with its use as functional survival strategy, there have been times where I have consumed huge amounts of caffeine to stay awake.

But as someone with depression it also totally whacks out my sleep cycle, prior to treating my depression I would rouse every forty five minutes, frequently had early waking around three am, or insomnia of the variety where I couldn't fall asleep. These were all made worse by my sleep apnea and caffeine. Currently is I consume caffeine after about twelve noon, I will have early waking where I rouse for about an hour around three am.

Many people are lethargic and have caffeine headaches in the morning, and feel crappy upon waking, because of caffeine addiction, people have to wean themselves off of caffeine because of this, and it takes about six months. But only if caffeine creates a problem.

So in your case the issue is what caused the fatigue in the first place, and the culprits are manifold, from my personal experience I can identify three likely culprits, sleep apnea, allergies and infection followed by hypoglycemia, diabetes and depression. All of these can cause fatigue. Also running in the pack are anxiety, stress and life style influences.

So maybe the first step is a life inventory, and contacting your library, do a google search on, sleep hygiene, sleep disturbance and better sleep.

Things that can wreck your sleep are so plentiful that it would be a laundry list, alcohol, cigarettes, marijuana and stimulants, exercise, lack of exercise, light cycles, sleep patterns, multiple medical conditions, thyroid, diabetes, hypoglycemia, pulmonary , high blood pressure, stressful work, stressful life, relationships, lack of relationships on and on.

As a former mental health worker the key questions abound and would be difficult to asses, what time do you go to sleep, what time do you wake, how often do you rouse, are you rested when you wake, do you ever have early waking, how quiet is your sleep environment, how much light, what is your general array of moods, are you irritable, are you angry , are you sad, are you euphoric, do you think the world is a good place: do good things happen to people, how do you feel when you think about the future, do you get along with yourself, do you feel restless or lack a sense of ease, do you feel anxious or nervous, have you ever had a panic attack, do you smoke cigarettes, do you drink alcohol, do you use other substance and on and on and on.

So I am sorry no clear answers to the question.

[orpheus]

The link between lack of sleep (or inconsistent sleep) and depression is something I've had to contend with, and it can get complicated.

I don't think it caused my major depressive episodes (two of 'em, and that's quite enough for me, thank you very much), but the depressions have left me much more vulnerable - if I don't get enough sleep, I find myself on the slippery slope.

OTOH (and this is the complicated part), I went through a period when I was so afraid of falling back into depression, I was being very careful to get enough sleep - it took priority over everything else. And as a result I got much less creative work done. And as a result of that, I started to get depressed, and needed more sleep....

Finding the balance...

[Pauliesonne]

I's get's about's eight's hour's's of's sleep's.

[Ceritus]

thanks for all the replys!~