Fortune teller in the office

[mac]

I have just been informed that we are having a fortune teller over at the office for a Halloween get together. We have to reserve a 10-15 minute slot and she’s here for half a day or so. I’ve already answered no, because she’ll be paid by the visit and I don’t care to add more money to her coffers. However, apart from letting her know of the JREF prize, how else can I muddle her cards? – and this of course without getting fired, please. It’s pointless bringing this to the attention of upper management as it’s seen as just a bit of fun.

I feel like a party pooper – but somehow, I’d like to get the point across. Any sane ideas, please? I’ve enquired as to the fees for magicians – but they’re way over what Madame Whatnot is charging. (I would have much preferred a magic séance – all in the keeping with the occasion.)

[Beady]

Well, you could try to go the "Religion in the Workplace" route.

[mac]

My quick response would be - even I couldn't do that... What exactly do you mean? It's not a big office - there's really no red tape to get things scrambled up.

[StewartP]

Set up your own stall. Its all in fun after all.

Using generic horoscopes and stuff you can demonstrate that you are just as accurate as the one being paid.

[Katana]

Set up your own stall. Its all in fun after all.

Using generic horoscopes and stuff you can demonstrate that you are just as accurate as the one being paid.

I like this idea. Beat her at her own game.

[mac]

Good idea - I can set that up quite easily. I'll have a look at any of the funny (borderline nasty) horrorscopes available on the net and set up a table. That's a start anyway.

[Garrette]

StewartP beat me to the suggestion, but I recommend it. I also recommend getting a little bit of practice ahead of time.

You might also have a little bit of information on how fortune tellers work on a nicely printed sheet (1 page only or it will not get read), and hand them out after your readings.

[Zax63]

Sad to say, but from a practical standpoint I think you should just let it go. I just think it is the wrong setting for a battle. It's a party and no one is going to thank you for spoiling the fun. Hopefully, most of the people will know the fortuneteller is a fake. There is little chance you will change any True Believer's minds and you may offend someone in a position to cause you trouble at work.

If you still want to do something to point out how silly it is - How about if after the forune teller is gone you ask for a show of hands on some common fortunes:

How many people will be taking a trip?, meeting a tall dark stranger, hearing from a family member/loved one, coming in to money, ...

If a large percentage of the people have similar answers they may get the idea. Handled properly it could be fun and good for some laughs as well.

[Garrette]

I don't think that I would let it go, but I do agree you shouldn't do it in a "party-pooper" mode. Have fun with it, and let the others have fun.

Also bear in mind that even if things go perfectly, you won't get the same success as the fortune-teller. A large part of their success resides in the belief of the sitter. Since (I assume) your co-workers already know you don't purport to have such abilities, they will not believe you will be successful. If you say exactly what the fortune teller says, they will still give the fortune teller more credit than they give you.

[Katana]

I don't think that I would let it go, but I do agree you shouldn't do it in a "party-pooper" mode. Have fun with it, and let the others have fun.

Also bear in mind that even if things go perfectly, you won't get the same success as the fortune-teller. A large part of their success resides in the belief of the sitter. Since (I assume) your co-workers already know you don't purport to have such abilities, they will not believe you will be successful. If you say exactly what the fortune teller says, they will still give the fortune teller more credit than they give you.

I agree with this. Go into it with the intent of having fun and not proving anyone wrong, if you can. In theory, the fortune teller shouldn't be threatened if she really possesses the abilities that she claims.

I probably wouldn't set up shop right next to her, though.

[grayman]

Try doing cold readings ala John Edwards or Sylvia Browne. It is Halloween and speaking to the departed may be the beginning of a nice side income for you.

;)

[Spindrift]

Someone is going to get PO'd because there is likely to be someone in the office who is a woo and will take it seriously.

If you mock it, you have to be ready for someone getting offended and I don't mean Madame ScamArtist. Depending on who the woo is, it could make things a bit dicey at work.

I would just make sure that people know that you're not doing it because it is basically supporting a con artist.

Would they bring in a 3-card monte dealer and have the employees play with their own money? It really isn't much different. 3-card monte is entertaining, but it is just a con game as is fortune telling.

[mac]

StewartP beat me to the suggestion, but I recommend it. I also recommend getting a little bit of practice ahead of time.

You might also have a little bit of information on how fortune tellers work on a nicely printed sheet (1 page only or it will not get read), and hand them out after your readings.

Any idea where there's one I could copy from?

[mac]

Thanks for the input - it's an upper. It's not a huge office - we all know each other, so we know who the woos are and who are not. Also, my sense of humour is something they graciously tolerate... ;-) I was intending on making it fun - that's why the "horror"scopes and nothing serious - but I also like the recap on generalities. I did offer to make a seance for next year, instead of hiring a scammer. That will take planning, but should be fun - and it seems to have created interest.

If you have any other ideas on getting this crowd to have a scammer go hungry, let me know!

[Dragonrock]

Have several people record their readings then anaylize them.

[Garrette]

Any idea where there's one I could copy from?I have lots of books, booklets, and long pamphlets, but they're not condensed enough. I haven't done a google search, but I expect something is out there. Otherwise, search this forum and see what's on it.

Several people could write a quick summary off the tops of their heads. If you can't come up with anything, ask again here or pm me and we'll get something together.

[Infinite]

Have fun with the whole thing or be the person in the office that is thought of as anti-social. Who wants to be grouped in that catagory?

[tomgv15]

Forget the office - have fun with fortune teller. Make things up, speak with non-sequitors. Be jovial, goofy, have a good time, play her like perch.

[Garrette]

Below are a few sites you might check out. They are all fairly brief and informative, but they also mainly (but not solely) focus on cold-reading, which is probably the most common method, but is certainly not the only method.

In fact, in your particular case of the office party, I think that some hot reading is likely. The likelihood goes up if you have a website and up even more if it lists staff members.

Consider that your boss arranged, well in advance, for this party, so the fortune teller has lots of time to research. You're a small company, so if she can get a staff list, she knows for whom she will read. Research from there is easy. I wouldn't be surprised if the boss already gave information about the staff, either knowingly or not.

But here are the sites:

http://www.prairieghosts.com/coldreads.html (http://www.prairieghosts.com/coldreads.html)

http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/cold%20reading.html (http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/cold%20reading.html)

http://www.tonyyouens.com/sophistry.htm (http://www.tonyyouens.com/sophistry.htm)

http://skepdic.com/psychic.html (http://skepdic.com/psychic.html)

[rustytunes]

Ask what her opinion is of how the "frauds" in her industry should be dealt with, what steps should be taken to weed them out. That should open up some good dialogue.

[xenxabar]

You could bring in a bunch of fortune cookies and have people compare the fortunes to the ones they got from the fortune teller. If you're good with schtick then this would be good one for you, just don't go all Carrot Top (or worse Gallagher) on them.

[Beth]

You could bring in a bunch of fortune cookies and have people compare the fortunes to the ones they got from the fortune teller. If you're good with schtick then this would be good one for you, just don't go all Carrot Top (or worse Gallagher) on them.

My daughter says that you should add the words "in bed" to end of the fortune (the one that comes in the cookie). It almost always makes it better. I have to admit, it works pretty well.

[Kochanski]

xenxabar beat me to the suggestion. Sigh.

Make a nice big sign saying FORTUNES HERE with the fortune cookies in a bowl in front of it. I am betting you will get more attention than her, everyone loves to get free cookies in the office :D

There are places that actually do custom fortune cookies, so you can come up with whatever you want to put in the cookie. Just do a search online ;)

And you can alway hand Madame Whatever one as soon as she arrives, so much fun if you can have the cookies all filled with an appropriate saying ;)

[CFLarsen]

Skeptic's Dictionary has a nice, brief article on cold reading:

http://www.skepdic.com/coldread.html

[rjh01]

HOW TO BECOME A PSYCHIC IN ONE DAY (http://www.skeptics.ca/articles/shermer-psychic.html)

[FFed]

Start to tell people in the office why you think they are fake, for example reading are general, about career, money, relationships, etc. So when people see her in action they will hear exactly what you have been telling them.

[Marc L]

Thanks for the input - it's an upper. It's not a huge office - we all know each other, so we know who the woos are and who are not. Also, my sense of humour is something they graciously tolerate... ;-) I was intending on making it fun - that's why the "horror"scopes and nothing serious - but I also like the recap on generalities. I did offer to make a seance for next year, instead of hiring a scammer. That will take planning, but should be fun - and it seems to have created interest.

If you have any other ideas on getting this crowd to have a scammer go hungry, let me know!

Given the size of the office, I'd have to agree with those who say not to do this in "party-pooper" mode. Unfortunately, all the ideas I have are fairly confrontational. If nothing else, just let them have their fun. I have some close friends on the LOLLIPOP who are Neo-Pagans. When we were on deployment this spring, we'd get together and occasionally they'd start getting woo-ish (playing with energy balls, that sort of thing). I generally let them alone (though occasionally I'd put my hand over their's when they made their energy balls and say "Nope, still nothing").

Mostly we respected each other. They knew I didn't believe what they did, but they also knew I respected them as people. As such, I could get away with doing things like that. The end result (for me, at least) was a more enjoyable deployment. The same is true for this party, I think. Play into it. Let them have their fun. Are they wrong? Yes. So what? It's a party. A Halloween one, at that.*

Now, if any of them actually start trying to give this fortune teller money to tell them how to live their lives, then I'd worry.

*That reminds me, any ideas on what to dress the BorgMonkey up as for her first "official" Halloween? We're taking her trick-or-treating, because Mommy and I are sugar freaks, and we have no problem using our daughter to get candy for ourselves...

Marc

[Stray Cat]

Being a bit of a showman, I would be very tempted to predict the fortune teller's predictions. Write them out on various notes and sealed in individual envelopes. Circulate round the party asking your work collegues what the fortune teller told them and then produce the relevant 'prediction' from your pocket for them to open. This should either convince them that:
a) the fortune teller has no special powers or
b) that you do have special powers

Either could be a good result. :)

Personally I wouldn't directly confront the fortune teller directly at the party as it would serve no purpose except to make you look like a party pooper. But to make an entertaining non-confrontational exposé later would do most good to show people that there is really no skill in handing out ambiguity disguised as advice.

[bluess]

*That reminds me, any ideas on what to dress the BorgMonkey up as for her first "official" Halloween? We're taking her trick-or-treating, because Mommy and I are sugar freaks, and we have no problem using our daughter to get candy for ourselves...

Marc

Depending on how round the BorgMonkey is, a pumpkin costume is always cute.

And for the OP - go with the fun. The suggestion about handing out fortune cookies was very cool.

[Thanz]

Any sane ideas, please?
Here's one - reach down and pull out whatever is stuck up your posterior. Then give your head a shake. It is a halloween party, with a fortune teller just for fun in a small office. They say that these people are "for entertainment purposes only", right? Your company is just using her for entertainment! You do not have to fight fortune tellers everywhere! This person is not coming in to rip off the grieving or anything else. She is doing essentially the same thing as your magician would be doing. Go to a reading and have fun with it. See how many cold reading tricks you can spot. Count the hits and the misses.

I can see getting pissed off at the Sylvia Brownes of the world who are clearly exploiting the grieving. But I don't see the point of getting upset at a performer at a corporate party. Sheesh.

[SkepticScott]

Play with the fortune teller. Read the chapter in Ian Rowland's book about "playing" with psychics, and then practice. Let everyone talk about how mind-blowingly wrong the fortune teller was.

[Garrette]

Thanz,

How many people in this thread have advocated getting upset?

How many people in this thread have suggested doing anything to stop the others havin fun?

Conversely, how many people have said it is important not to ruin the fun of others?

You are painting a wall that is not there.

[Thanz]

Thanz,

How many people in this thread have advocated getting upset?

How many people in this thread have suggested doing anything to stop the others havin fun?

Conversely, how many people have said it is important not to ruin the fun of others?

You are painting a wall that is not there.
Perhaps I am being a bit harsh. But I just don't see a need to get any sort of word out about fortune tellers in this kind of a setting - or proving a point about cold reading, astrology or anything else at a halloween party.

As for advocating being upset - the thread is premised on being upset at this person - he didn't book a reading so that she would get less money, he wanted to replace her with someone else, and even considered going to management about it.

Sorry, but I just don't see a fortune teller coming to a halloween party as any sort of call to action - unless that action is a chance to experience a fortune teller without putting money out of your own pocket and having a little fun.

[CFLarsen]

Perhaps I am being a bit harsh. But I just don't see a need to get any sort of word out about fortune tellers in this kind of a setting - or proving a point about cold reading, astrology or anything else at a halloween party.

As for advocating being upset - the thread is premised on being upset at this person - he didn't book a reading so that she would get less money, he wanted to replace her with someone else, and even considered going to management about it.

Sorry, but I just don't see a fortune teller coming to a halloween party as any sort of call to action - unless that action is a chance to experience a fortune teller without putting money out of your own pocket and having a little fun.

You don't see advocating the idea that a paranormal phenomenon is real as a problem?

Just where would you draw the line?

[Thanz]

You don't see advocating the idea that a paranormal phenomenon is real as a problem?

Just where would you draw the line?

I don't see anyone here advocating that a paranormal phenomenon is real. I see a company hiring an entertainer for a party. If they hired a magician, would we have to expose that there is no such thing as real magic?

[CFLarsen]

I don't see anyone here advocating that a paranormal phenomenon is real. I see a company hiring an entertainer for a party. If they hired a magician, would we have to expose that there is no such thing as real magic?

I asked you where you would draw the line. Please answer the question.

[Thanz]

I asked you where you would draw the line. Please answer the question.
I know that this is one of your favourite exercises - the drawing of the line. I don't draw a line in the abstract. I prefer to examine each situation on its own merits.

[Pipirr]

Long before I knew anything about cold reading and the truth about fortune tellers, I went to a halloween party and a palm reader was there. Without any malice at all (I knew very little, good or bad, about palm reading and suchlike), I decided to give it a fair go. You know, just in case there was something to it. So I let her talk, didn't give feedback even when she was extremely wide of the mark, and sat through an excrutiatingly embarrassing five minutes of awkward pauses.

Thirty minutes after that, she read significant other's palm and among other things, told her that her life would improve if she was single. We broke up that very night.

So the moral of this story is.... um, don't mess with the fortune teller. Because its just awkward, and you might lose your girlfriend.

:rolleyes:

[CFLarsen]

I know that this is one of your favourite exercises - the drawing of the line. I don't draw a line in the abstract. I prefer to examine each situation on its own merits.

So, pick two situations. One, where you won't have to expose that there is no such thing as real magic, and one where you would.

[Thanz]

So, pick two situations. One, where you won't have to expose that there is no such thing as real magic, and one where you would.
I have already done that. Don't have to - when a fortune teller is hired for some fun at a corporate halloween party. Should be exposed as fraud - Sylvia Browne, telling a woman who lost her firefighter fiance in one of the Towers on 9/11 that he wouldn't be found because he is in water. Really, Sylvia Browne in any situation.

[CFLarsen]

I have already done that. Don't have to - when a fortune teller is hired for some fun at a corporate halloween party. Should be exposed as fraud - Sylvia Browne, telling a woman who lost her firefighter fiance in one of the Towers on 9/11 that he wouldn't be found because he is in water. Really, Sylvia Browne in any situation.

Why don't you think a psychic hired for some fun at a corporate halloween party is a problem?

Isn't the psychic posing as someone with real paranormal abilities?

Just yes or no.

[Beth]

Why don't you think a psychic hired for some fun at a corporate halloween party is a problem?

I gather you think it is. Why is that?

[mac]

Many thanks for the good suggestions and the reading material. The cookies are in! (And I'll have an appropriate sign.) I've printed out the documentation on the links provided. I'll copy some of the entries that are specific and will compare these with what was said at the readings - all in good fun! I'll make sure to make some "predictions" too. I'm thinking of printing the comments to the backs of home-made tarrot cards - how's that sound?

[mac]

There is a specific response to Thanz I'd like to make. I understand the "entertainment" value of such performances, however, backing up such a person's claim with the name of a very reputable company allows such a person to gain credibility and hence power over vulnerable people. For example, that a magician was hired to perform for Power Corporation looks very good on such magician's cv - add such a prestige to a fortune teller's cv and imagine how many can be reeled in. Next thing you know, they're claiming they're helping police... That's where dealing with these frauds as corporate entertainment is, in my humble opinion, a mistake.

[Thanz]

Why don't you think a psychic hired for some fun at a corporate halloween party is a problem?

Isn't the psychic posing as someone with real paranormal abilities?

Just yes or no.
I don't think a psychic hired for some fun at a corporate party is a problem because it is just for fun. Entertainment. Just like a magician. A magician also poses as someone who has paranormal abilities - it is part of the schtick. I don't see it as a problem as everyone knows it is just for fun.

[Thanz]

There is a specific response to Thanz I'd like to make. I understand the "entertainment" value of such performances, however, backing up such a person's claim with the name of a very reputable company allows such a person to gain credibility and hence power over vulnerable people. For example, that a magician was hired to perform for Power Corporation looks very good on such magician's cv - add such a prestige to a fortune teller's cv and imagine how many can be reeled in. Next thing you know, they're claiming they're helping police... That's where dealing with these frauds as corporate entertainment is, in my humble opinion, a mistake.
I think that there is a wide gulf between claiming on your resume that you worked Power Corporation's halloween party and claiming that you helped the police. The two aren't even remotely comparable. I don't think that someone was hired to work a party lends any credibility to the claim that their predictions are true, rather, it may help them in their claim that they are entertaining. If she was claiming that she was called in to advise the board of directors, you would have a point. But I don't see any enhanced credibility for a psychic by claiming they worked a party.

[Flo]

I think that there is a wide gulf between claiming on your resume that you worked Power Corporation's halloween party and claiming that you helped the police. The two aren't even remotely comparable. I don't think that someone was hired to work a party lends any credibility to the claim that their predictions are true, rather, it may help them in their claim that they are entertaining. If she was claiming that she was called in to advise the board of directors, you would have a point. But I don't see any enhanced credibility for a psychic by claiming they worked a party.


Neither do I, but there's a fair chance quite a lot of her future "clients" might not see the difference, especialla since claiming they have been helping the police after having been in casual contact with one of its members is unfortunately what too many psychics do too often.

[Marc L]

Neither do I, but there's a fair chance quite a lot of her future "clients" might not see the difference, especialla since claiming they have been helping the police after having been in casual contact with one of its members is unfortunately what too many psychics do too often.

Well, here's the thing. Performing at birthday/halloween parties is a completely different league from helping police, advising businesses, etc. For example, do you know how many parties Randi, or Penn&Teller played at before being well-known entertainers? Probably not*

It's the same thing with psychics, as far as I'm concerned. Sure, they do parties, etc in the beginning, but if they hit the "big time", no one's going to be interested in the parties. They'll care more about them "helping the police" or "advising businesses", etc.

Marc

[Foolmewunz]

Thanz has a good point there are evil a**hats out there that need to be taken down at every turn. A hundred buck party trickster may not be the appropriate battlefield in the greater quest for truth, but if it really does upset you, then maybe you just play with the "fun" theme. Is there a company bulletin board? Right next to the party announcement (and the "readings" plug), hang up a notice of your own, completely sincere-sounding, that already points out how silly these things are.


"To All Staff
Hey, this is great! Everyone should sign up. We had a "fortune teller" at my cousin's bar mitzvah a few years ago. My uncle wanted to teach his son that becoming a man meant learning to think, so he had this lady come in who pretended she could see our futures in tea cups and a crystal ball. Man, she told people the most basic stuff, but said it so seriously they just gobbled it up! I still remember what she told me,... "Standing on your own has not been easy, but you are a person who likes to do things your way." Yeah, that kind of stuff! You can have a ball with this sort of thing at a party!"

There's no rule out there that you have to be a stuffed shirt pipe-smoking skeptic. Play with it and maybe you get them to play along, too. Don't compromise your true feelings or beliefs, but "go with the flow". Who knows, you might find two or three more skeptics in the office, and a good bit of fun for a group of skeptics is hanging around watching people get sucked into the silliness offered by a fortune teller.

(Umm, you might want to first sneak into the boss's office and see if he has autographed photos of Sylvia Browne on the wall. In which case, uh, forget it.)

[mac]

Hi - just a short update. I had the fortune cookie table out with a neato sign indicating no-fail predictions (ex. today you will eat chocolate) - and all that went off quite well. The humour was not lost and it livened the afternoon up quite a bit and got people talking about the whole paranormal issue - but without it being heavy at all.

It was a palm reader that made an appearance. She was very popular. Everyone who booked some time with her swears that she was uncannily precise. I discussed some of the "predictions" - of course they were vague but she got some good targets and they became laser precise. This is a bit discouraging for me. This company is science based, and I find it puzzling that such goobildygook is tolerated here. The "Science Dept" secretary reads tea leaves. Sigh.

At least next year I get to supply the "entertainment". Anybody have ideas for a very freaky sceance - I think I could do the dead people talking and be at least as precise... I've got a year to practice.

Does W mean anything to anybody?... William, maybe Bill?...

Thanks for your help and suggestions, and especially the reading links - they were a great help.

mac

[rjh01]

Reject all advice on what to do next year. You already know the answer, which is a very good idea.

And thanks for the update.

[Yahzi]

Sorry, but I just don't see a fortune teller coming to a halloween party as any sort of call to action - unless that action is a chance to experience a fortune teller without putting money out of your own pocket and having a little fun.
You presume that seeing a fortune teller is fun. For some people, it might not be fun.

I imagine that anyone who has lost a child, and consequently been preyed upon by fortune tellers, could give you a categorical explanation of why it's not just "fun."

For the life of me, I can't see how your arguments exclude a KKK wizard from telling racist jokes from being legitimate party entertainment. Once you've decided that people must be allowed to believe the most irrational things without even being questioned, where does it stop?

(Edit: a better example - let a Scientologist come in and do free E-readings. It's just fun, right? Ignore the fact that the psychic is trolling for new clients, and should be paying your company for the right to solicit her services. That's what I would be pissed about - they effectively subjected the entire company to an advertisment. Real entertainers are not there to find suckers they can privately bilk for more money later.)

[mac]

I must say that my primary reaction when I got the e-mail saying we were going to have this type of "event" for Halloween was motivated by the fact that I feel they are "trolling for new clients" (thanks Yahzi). What happens when somebody goes through a very tough time and seeks this type of help? A colleague has spent a small fortune on "healing" and even trained for it... because she thought she could help a close family member from a distance. She's woken up since then, a few thousand $ short... and the family member none the better. Unfortunate, but she could have spent that money for travel back "home" to see her relative.

It's really no fun at all, when you see the non-entertaining effects of these lies.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

Thanks for the update!

I say next year provide your own "psychic". Have someone run the whole schtick, but at the end of the day, have him/her make an announcment along the lines of, "I am not psychic! What you all have experienced is the power of cold reading, the Forer Effect and wishful thinking. Etc, etc." Might make people think, shake them up. Or p*ss them off.

[Thanz]

You presume that seeing a fortune teller is fun. For some people, it might not be fun.
And for some people a magician might not be fun, as they use the tools of the devil. And for others a clown might not be fun, due to undisclosed childhood clown traumas. So?
I imagine that anyone who has lost a child, and consequently been preyed upon by fortune tellers, could give you a categorical explanation of why it's not just "fun."
The difference is context. If the company were bringing in a fortune teller to find lost kids, maybe I'd agree with you. But their not. They brought her in (on Halloween, fer crying out loud) for some lighthearted entertainment.

For the life of me, I can't see how your arguments exclude a KKK wizard from telling racist jokes from being legitimate party entertainment.For the life of me, I can't tell how this example is analogous at all. Who hires the KKK to work a party telling racist jokes?
Once you've decided that people must be allowed to believe the most irrational things without even being questioned, where does it stop?Yes. Now I see how allowing a fortune teller to work a hallowween party is a direct line to civil disorder and anarchy, with the weak downtrodden, abused, and probably enslaved to our new psychic masters, Sylvia Browne and John Edward, and all of their bastard progeny.

(Edit: a better example - let a Scientologist come in and do free E-readings. It's just fun, right? Ignore the fact that the psychic is trolling for new clients, and should be paying your company for the right to solicit her services. That's what I would be pissed about - they effectively subjected the entire company to an advertisment. Real entertainers are not there to find suckers they can privately bilk for more money later.)
Not an accurate example either. Scientologists do E-readings as a recruitment tool. I reject your premise that ALL fortune tellers MUST be there to prey on the grieving and suck them dry. As for "trolling for clients" do oyu not think a magician would also want to work your kids birthday party? OR is that allowed, cause you like magicians?

[personable]

I think the distinction between a magician and a fortune teller is that the magician works on an understanding with the audience that what he is doing is indeed fake and the showpiece is his skills in making it look real.

A Fortune teller could easily take the same approach, but they choose not to. Ok, it may be lighthearted entertainment for most people, but the vunerable people in our society tend to take them seriously and risk not only their purses but their mental well-being.

The difference is, if the fortune teller were to openly admit that she didn't really see the dead, but was mainly showcasing her cold reading skills and ability to create an atmosphere, then that would be entirely fine.

[Morrigan]

I agree, the comparison with magicians is completely unwarranted.

Hell, James Randi is/was a magician - by that poor logic, he'd be the same as the psychics he debunks so well.

[Yahzi]

I reject your premise that ALL fortune tellers MUST be there to prey on the grieving and suck them dry.
You have just described the psychic's business model. Of course that is they are there for. That is their job. That is how they get paid.

:(

As for "trolling for clients" do oyu not think a magician would also want to work your kids birthday party?
That's a good point. However, I feel there is a difference. The magician is focused on producing a show, which then might encourage you to hire him privately. The psychic is focused on finding clients, and only does the show to get access to the clients. But I realize that is a subtle and possibly subjective difference, so I retract this objection.

Instead, the objection I offer is that we all know the psychic cannot deliver the product they are selling. The magician is not defrauding people; the psychic is. And it's clearly wrong to let frauds advertise in your work-place.

[Thanz]

Instead, the objection I offer is that we all know the psychic cannot deliver the product they are selling. The magician is not defrauding people; the psychic is. And it's clearly wrong to let frauds advertise in your work-place.
Again, I think that you are painting all purported psychics with the same broad brush when I do not think it is warranted. A very quick google search found me this:

http://www.gigmasters.com/psychic/ChangeYourFortune/

Gigmasters seems to be a company that arranges entertainment for parties. This psychic describes her act as follows:
I am an accurate, articulate, attractive Tarot card, astrology, aura reading (with an imaging machine that creates a take home picture) and numerlogy reader. A unique feature of my entertaining act is my ability to rove in addition to doing one-on-one readings. When roving I can read for up to 20 people an hour and interact with groups. Because I am dead on accurate, it is a delightful way to spark fun and entertaining exchanges among guests at an event.
I have entertained at hundreds of parties and am very skillful at assuring that everyone is uplifted and entertained by my readings.

I also have a large number of experienced and talented complementary performers whom I can book to work with me or alone. I am always happy to make every effort to create the 'look and feel' you want at a party. This has included designing custom decor and centerpieces for parties.
Looks to me more like she is entertaining people rather than looking for grieving widows to fleece.

[mac]

I think that there is a wide gulf between claiming on your resume that you worked Power Corporation's halloween party and claiming that you helped the police. The two aren't even remotely comparable. I don't think that someone was hired to work a party lends any credibility to the claim that their predictions are true, rather, it may help them in their claim that they are entertaining. If she was claiming that she was called in to advise the board of directors, you would have a point. But I don't see any enhanced credibility for a psychic by claiming they worked a party.


Sorry I skipped by this one. I beg to differ on this one. Realising that by simple omission of the word "party" on a resume one could thus completely change the deck. One might assume that that said "entertainer" would not mention that and leave it up to the reader to come to a conclusion. The goal is to gain credibility for them, after all. Current/Past clients: Power Corp.
Voila - the damage is done. It's not a lie - and even then what would be one more lie to the pack?

[mac]

Looks to me more like she is entertaining people rather than looking for grieving widows to fleece.

Yes. I see she's done "hundreds" of parties too! She must have been at it for quite some time - or them comapanies are just really party hardy! Note that the palmist that was here made sure that evry sitter had her card and knew that she'd be there for them whenever they felt they could use her help. Hmmm opening up windows of opportunity and watching the $ bills come aflotin' right into her claws.

[Yahzi]

Because I am dead on accurate
This is a lie. She is not dead on accurate. She does not have psychic powers. She is selling a fraud.

There is a difference between hiring an entertainer who provides entertainment, and a fraud who purports to provide a service that many take as entertainment but some take as real.

If the psychics were not lying to the employer from the start, you might have a case. But they are. The psychics come in under fraudlent circumstances, selling fraudlent services. This is what makes them entirely different than any legitimate entertainer.

You seem to be saying, "Because they aren't lying about anything important, it's ok that they get paid for a lie."

Looks to me more like she is entertaining people rather than looking for grieving widows to fleece.
I envy you. I really do. I remember when I was capable of such naivete and optimism.

However, your trust is misplaced. This is an easy matter to test. Find any psychic - call one at random out of the phone book. Tell her your wife just died, you're having financial troubles, and you think your bank account has cursed money in it. Ask her if she can contact your wife on the other side so she can tell you how to cure your $10,000 in small bills.

When you find even one psychic who says, "Honey, we just do this for entertainment; you need to call a lawyer and a counseler," then I will let you have your optimism back.

:D

[Thanz]

This is a lie. She is not dead on accurate. She does not have psychic powers. She is selling a fraud.
It is a sales pitch. The same could be said for Ian Rowland, or the Amazing Kreskin.

I envy you. I really do. I remember when I was capable of such naivete and optimism.
Of course you envy me. Who doesn't? Perhaps you should just stick with "I am totally with Thanz on this one" and be done with it? :p

[Soapy Sam]

You could always hire a priest and have the witch exorcised.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...

Pretend the whole thing is an affront to your religion.
(It may help your credibility if you can grow a waggly beard and wear a silly hat).

[mac]

Here it is - quoted directly from an article on Randi himself:

"Such feats aren't magic, Randi says. They're deception. Magic is a venerable art in which performer and audience have an agreement; both understand that what's happening on stage is illusion. The scam artists, he says, are different. They would have you believe what they're doing is real."
...
"He believes they prey on gullible people, often using standard magic tricks to deceive. Media attention has made it worse, he says."

The 'quack' hunter
By JEANNE MALMGREN
St. Petersburg Times, published April 14, 1998

And I would add that any kind of attention they get "makes it worse".

Scam, scum - same difference.

[Luke T.]

Next year, have a "psychic" come to the party and give everyone a private reading. The twist being that everyone is given the exact same reading. Use the Forer Effect reading (http://skepdic.com/forer.html). Don't let on that you have arranged for this particular psychic since you are tagged as a skeptic now.

The next day after the readings, send out an email and ask everyone what they thought of their readings. Then compile all the answers, minus the names so no one is publicly embarrassed, and send out another email with the praising comments, and then explain they all got the exact same reading.

Randi has done similar demonstrations in the past to great effect.

[Foolmewunz]

Palmists, Tarot Readers, Astrologists.....

There are many of these fuzzy para-psychics who believe in the charts or books they've found on the subject. Are they right? NO! Emphatically, NO!

But are they evil fleecers of the milk money of widows and orphans? Equally, NO, in many cases. I've known idjits who don't do anything before they consulted their horoscope, I Ching, magic dice cube, etc.... And they'd be delighted to read your tarot for you. And they believed in it; still do.

There are places to fight the battle. Debunking the accuracy or viability of a palm reader is right. Don't let them get away with it. But these are the lightweights, and I tend to not want to call them frauds. They believe in whatever ancient text (usually published two months ago) they've found. Their "science" is absurd. Their ability to reason and question is nil. But are they shysters, scamming people, or just idjits?

These people are in a whole different league. SBS - Stupid But Sincere.

I agree with Thanz and several earlier posters. The call to arms needs to be reserved for the obvious bottom-feeders and parasites. A dingbat who believes in palmistry isn't out there with predators like Sylvia or Edwards.

[mac]

Next year, have a "psychic" come to the party and give everyone a private reading.

The next day after the readings, send out an email and ask everyone what they thought of their readings...

That's exactly what I was thinking of... and a sceance of course - it is Halloween after all, and I'm quiet sure that with practice I can set something up that would be cool. Thank goodness for friends that like getting into a little trouble!