inside the mind of a hamas sympathizer

[corplinx]

There are some of you on this board who are entirely predictable. Given the following series of events:

A. Hamas terrorist/guerilla attacks Israeli civillians/soldiers
B. Israel retaliates and attacks Hamas leader(s), some non-combatants die/wounded

Based on that, you will conclude that Israel is the bad guy. Danish Dynamite, Malachi, and others will be on the soapbox about how Israel doesn't want peace.

What I want to know is, what is it that motivates you? Do you hate the jews? Is it because the american establishment supports Israel that you so blindly hate it? So is it anti-semitism, proxy anti-americanism, or some other reason? I hate to think its a pro-islamic-terror mindset. I don't think any of you are actually like that.

So tell me, what is the philiosophy that you base your admonitions of Israel on?

[Baker]

Here is a BBC report on Hamas which show there real intention.
Notice the bold text.

It also has a long-term aim of establishing an Islamic state on all of historic Palestine - most of which has been contained within Israel's borders since its creation in 1948.

The grass-roots organisation - with a political and a military wing - has an unknown number of active members but tens of thousands of supporters and sympathisers.

Up to 40,000 people rallied in Gaza in December 2002 to mark Hamas' 15th anniversary where they heard the group's blind and paralysed spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmad Yassin, predict Israel's destruction by the year 2025.

"The march of martyrs will move forward... Resistance will move forward. Jihad will continue, and martyrdom operations will continue until the full liberation of Palestine," he said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_palestinians/profiles/1654510.stm

[The Fool]

Originally posted by corplinx
There are some of you on this board who are entirely predictable. Given the following series of events:

and your not?


What I want to know is, what is it that motivates you? Do you hate the jews? Is it because the american establishment supports Israel that you so blindly hate it? So is it anti-semitism, proxy anti-americanism, or some other reason? I hate to think its a pro-islamic-terror mindset. I don't think any of you are actually like that.

So tell me, what is the philiosophy that you base your admonitions of Israel on?

And what motivates you? Don't talk to me about blind hate or racism you sanctimonious little prick. Where do you get off suggesting people support murder and racism? Pull your head in..... The day clowns stop pretending that there is a "one side is all to blame" answer to this problem is the day we will start to make progress. So instead of slagging people for doing the exact same thing as yourself, try opening your eyes to both sides of this story for a change. Both sides are wrong when they blow people up...get the idea?

[Cain]

Originally posted by corplinx
There are some of you on this board who are entirely predictable. Given the following series of events:

A. Hamas terrorist/guerilla attacks Israeli civillians/soldiers
B. Israel retaliates and attacks Hamas leader(s), some non-combatants die/wounded

Based on that, you will conclude that Israel is the bad guy. Danish Dynamite, Malachi, and others will be on the soapbox about how Israel doesn't want peace.

What I want to know is, what is it that motivates you? Do you hate the jews? Is it because the american establishment supports Israel that you so blindly hate it? So is it anti-semitism, proxy anti-americanism, or some other reason? I hate to think its a pro-islamic-terror mindset. I don't think any of you are actually like that.

So tell me, what is the philiosophy that you base your admonitions of Israel on?

*laugh*

I just love how the media portrays the cycle of violence: militant Islamic group attacks. THEN Israel retaliates.

The murder ratio for just about any given year is sees considerably more Palestinians die than Israelis (I believe it's a 3:1 ratio) but no one would know it from watching the news. Oh yes, and anyone who castigates Israel for atrocities must be motiviated by some kind of blind anti-semitism. :rolleyes:

Inexcusable atrocities are committed on both sides, but let's who's the occupying power; who fully funds and supports that occupation.

[crackmonkey]

Generally, the media protrays Israel as engaging in retaliation as opposed to murder is because that's what actually happens.
Palestinians blow up Israeli women and children, and later an Israeli helicopter kills a Hamas commander. At least Israel tries to limit civilian casualties (although not as much as I'd like). Hamas et al try to maximize civilian casualties.
If this nascent suicide bombing campaign continues, I'm hoping that Israel pulls the stopd out and drops several 2000 lb bombs on the next Hamas rally.

[Gem]

I don't know... I never considered using a missle fired from an helicopter gunship as an "assassination" weapon.

Gem

[Walter Wayne]

Originally posted by Cain
The murder ratio for just about any given year is sees considerably more Palestinians die than Israelis (I believe it's a 3:1 ratio) but no one would know it from watching the news. I know it. And I learned it from watching the news.

Walt

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by corplinx
There are some of you on this board who are entirely predictable. Given the following series of events:

A. Hamas terrorist/guerilla attacks Israeli civillians/soldiers
B. Israel retaliates and attacks Hamas leader(s), some non-combatants die/wounded

Based on that, you will conclude that Israel is the bad guy. Danish Dynamite, Malachi, and others will be on the soapbox about how Israel doesn't want peace.

What I want to know is, what is it that motivates you? Do you hate the jews? Is it because the american establishment supports Israel that you so blindly hate it? So is it anti-semitism, proxy anti-americanism, or some other reason? I hate to think its a pro-islamic-terror mindset. I don't think any of you are actually like that.

So tell me, what is the philiosophy that you base your admonitions of Israel on?

You seem to be confusing understanding a problem and sympathising with those involved in it.

As a computer systems engineer, I have to understand a problem before I can solve it. Just trying something and hoping for the best rarely works.

And that is what I am trying to do with this situation. Just trying to see the issue from one point of view is guaranteed to bring failure. Also, one of my mantra's when solving a problem is 'Users are all Liers'. That is, when someone comes along with a problem, don't just accept their storey at face value. They will tell you their point of view of the problem, but it is only when you dig deeper and question them that you can ever solve their problem. This involves questioning them and their assumptions.

In this issue, if it is to be solved, Hamas must be understood for their motivation. Just saying all you have to do is kill them all will not solve the systemic problem that may be the reason for their attacks.

Apart from that, the recent bombings, according to Hamas, are retaliation for Israeli attacks against them. What came first, the chicken or the egg?

[Frostbite]

Originally posted by The Fool
The day clowns stop pretending that there is a "one side is all to blame" answer to this problem is the day we will start to make progress.

How so very true.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by The Fool


And what motivates you? Don't talk to me about blind hate or racism you sanctimonious little prick. Where do you get off suggesting people support murder and racism? Pull your head in..... The day clowns stop pretending that there is a "one side is all to blame" answer to this problem is the day we will start to make progress. So instead of slagging people for doing the exact same thing as yourself, try opening your eyes to both sides of this story for a change. Both sides are wrong when they blow people up...get the idea?

As long as we are name calling, listen here you presumptious twit. I did not say there was one side to blame. I never said the Israelis aren't harsh in the occupied areas. I never said the Israelis never do anything wrong.

Here we have a case of Israel making all the concessions that egghead nitwits like you claim they need to make and the response from the terrorists is to strike again.

I pointed out, how feeble minded fignuts like yourself have a predictable "israel deserved it" mindset and response.

Face it Fool, you are as predictable as a tv sitcom. You think you are the one without blinders on, and that is why you can't see the big picture. Instead you see the picture you want to see, where someone like me who point out a senseless Hamas attack "always blames one side".

Go play with your toys and leave the intelligent debate to the grownups son. You aren't cut out for it.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Frostbite


How so very true.

How is that true? How do people assigning blame prolong a complex conflict?

[athon]

Originally posted by corplinx


How is that true? How do people assigning blame prolong a complex conflict?

It oversimplifies the issue, neglecting to explore all facets of a complicated problem. Blame narrows the view, and makes it an emotional issue rather than an intellectual one. And emotional answers rarely coincide with correct one.

Athon

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
Palestinians blow up Israeli women and children, and later an Israeli helicopter kills a Hamas commander. At least Israel tries to limit civilian casualties (although not as much as I'd like). Hamas et al try to maximize civilian casualties.
If this nascent suicide bombing campaign continues, I'm hoping that Israel pulls the stopd out and drops several 2000 lb bombs on the next Hamas rally.

Actually they shot a few IDF soldiers. Straightforward military action. Isreal responsed by killing three civillians and injuring another 20 -30.

A good thing they did too! otherwise there might have been another suicide bombing on an Isreali bus! :rolleyes:

After all these months/years of killing people and destryoing their homes and livelihoods. Destroying their dignity and identity. Have the attacks on Isreal ceased? Has any of this helped at all? NO! all its done is make it worse.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Actually they shot a few IDF soldiers.

That is correct, it was more of a guerilla act than a terrorist act.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by corplinx


As long as we are name calling, listen here you presumptious twit. I did not say there was one side to blame. I never said the Israelis aren't harsh in the occupied areas. I never said the Israelis never do anything wrong.

Here we have a case of Israel making all the concessions that egghead nitwits like you claim they need to make and the response from the terrorists is to strike again.

I pointed out, how feeble minded fignuts like yourself have a predictable "israel deserved it" mindset and response.

Face it Fool, you are as predictable as a tv sitcom. You think you are the one without blinders on, and that is why you can't see the big picture. Instead you see the picture you want to see, where someone like me who point out a senseless Hamas attack "always blames one side".

Go play with your toys and leave the intelligent debate to the grownups son. You aren't cut out for it.
:D
I can only assume you can lead me to these wonderful examples of times when you have been so even handed in your allocation of blame?

So far, the Israelis seem to be batting 1000 in your posts. Or have you learned all about Jedi selective memory from Mr Knight?

Funnily enough, what you demonstrate on a daily basis is what you seek to accuse people of in this thread, along with supporting murder, terrorism and racism... Well done Corplynx.

Its funny how someone can have a self image that just does not seem to stack up with what they type.....

Ok, you can go back to carefully weighing the facts and arguments before deciding that Israelis are always right....

[corplinx]

Originally posted by The Fool

So far, the Israelis seem to be batting 1000 in your posts. Or have you learned all about Jedi selective memory from Mr Knight?


You touch on a point that a good skeptic should be able to figure out themself. There are certain people on this forum very vocal about the death of palestinian non-combatants and the treatment of people in the occupied territories. They post very often.

Is it being a "blamer" to speak up when you think one of those zealous individuals might be incorrect or over the line? Mind you, I don't post frequently in those threads. Only recently during the hijacking of the latest peace effort have I really taken an interest. Why should I speak out on possible Israeli injustice when you have others cover that subject so throroughly and so often?

Originally posted by The Fool
what you demonstrate on a daily basis is what you seek to accuse people of in this thread, along with supporting murder, terrorism and racism

Fool, I never have really had an arguement with you that is noteworthy. I'm not sure why you have attacked me so distastefully. I thought you were better than to make a remark like this from reading other threads where you have posted. Sadly, it appears I was mistaken.

[Gideon S]

Man I wish I lived in a world where everything could be reduced to a set of binary conditions.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by corplinx

Fool, I never have really had an arguement with you that is noteworthy. I'm not sure why you have attacked me so distastefully. I thought you were better than to make a remark like this from reading other threads where you have posted. Sadly, it appears I was mistaken.

yes, you were mistaken. You were mistaken if you thought that you can post this.....

What I want to know is, what is it that motivates you? Do you hate the jews? Is it because the american establishment supports Israel that you so blindly hate it? So is it anti-semitism, proxy anti-americanism, or some other reason? I hate to think its a pro-islamic-terror mindset. I don't think any of you are actually like that.


.....and have me give you a golf clap? Have a good hard look at that paragraph, then have a good hard look at yourself because this paragraph says much more about your stereotype than the people it was directed at.

[Flo]

Originally posted by The Fool


yes, you were mistaken. You were mistaken if you thought that you can post this.....

What I want to know is, what is it that motivates you? Do you hate the jews? Is it because the american establishment supports Israel that you so blindly hate it? So is it anti-semitism, proxy anti-americanism, or some other reason? I hate to think its a pro-islamic-terror mindset. I don't think any of you are actually like that.


.....and have me give you a golf clap? Have a good hard look at that paragraph, then have a good hard look at yourself because this paragraph says much more about your stereotype than the people it was directed at.

Well, the title of the thread alone ... :rolleyes:

[c0rbin]

Originally posted by corplinx


How is that true? How do people assigning blame prolong a complex conflict?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It oversimplifies the issue, neglecting to explore all facets of a complicated problem. Blame narrows the view, and makes it an emotional issue rather than an intellectual one. And emotional answers rarely coincide with correct one.




Athon, you nailed it. The current method I hear from "conservative" folk on this board and elsewhere is: You are either with us, or against us.

Corplinx, you make this statement (whether you mean to or not) in the title of your thread and the first post. You assume that one sympathizes with Hamas if they find Isreal's actions and reactions wrong.

Can you see how there might be more than two paths here?

Starting a thread this way may make it easier for you to dismiss people who don't agree with you--typical of the quick to label conservatives (ironic how they rail against "PC" in this regard).

Isreal gets funding from the US to essentially create an apartheid state. Hamas reacts the only way its ignorant and unsupported people know how.

Do you think that a people should bend over to the oppression of another?

Is this situation still so black and white to you?

[Tmy]

I resent playing the race card should anyone raise an eyebrow towards Israel. Israel is a country, a government. If I think they are doing wrong I will say so. So they happen to be jewish, that does not mean I'm an anti-semite.

Some people just want to place Israel in the innocent victim role. They are not, neither are the Palistinians.

[demon]

corplinx:

"What I want to know is, what is it that motivates you? Do you hate the jews? Is it because the american establishment supports Israel that you so blindly hate it? So is it anti-semitism, proxy anti-americanism, or some other reason? I hate to think its a pro-islamic-terror mindset. I don't think any of you are actually like that."

__________________________________________________ __

Ah, the old colonialist viewpoint of 'civility' versus the colonised's duty to gain back their independence and rights by any means necessary. Isn`t it a shame that Palestinian resistance does not live up to your exacting standards for anti-colonial resistance? Well, what can one say, what is wrong with the natives?

When Britain had it's back to the wall during world war II, Churchill said: "We will fight them on the beaches...we will fight them in the streets and in the hills..we shall never surrender"
That meant that Britain would use ANY means necessary against the enemy invading our lands.

Guerilla warfare, resistance fighting, suicide bombing, Cologne, Dresden...you name it and we did it and would have used it.

This example of resistance against occupation wasn't just accepted as right and correct, it was fully EXPECTED as well.

Why then, in a land that has been illegally occupied for more than 50 years by an invading force, whose people are kicked out of their homes on a regular basis and are denied free movement in their own country do we expect a different set of rules and expectations?

Unlike the South Africans for example, in the case of the Palestinians, there is very little "official" moral indignation towards their plight. What little popular indignation there may be doesn't register on the official radar, and the little that does is conveniently swept under the carpet and called anti-Semitism.

The Palestinians have almost zero help from the outside world. They are partitioned off like animals in a zoo. They have curfews, they are losing their homes, they are dying... the humiliations are unimaginable. Also, there is more than just the physical and economic oppression. There is also a deep cultural and religious humiliation involved. The occupation strikes at the very heart of their identity and yet we have those who expect them to act like super-human Ghandis en masse.

Palestinians have been denied all or any protection for their inalienable and universally recognized rights, they have been denied all or any route to redress from those who have dispossessed them, they have been denied all or any international protection in line with the duties of the signatories to numerous international treaties and the international communtity.

Also, "Islam", is a non issue in this instance. It is a cover for all sorts of political and power realities. Suicide bombings, if we use one ounce of our empathetic powers, are just about as low as the human spirit can sink into despair and loss . That "evil Islam" has become the issue which those who seek to deny Palestinian rights gather round in celebratory condemnation is a real spectacle, I dont think those "natives" are as hideous as we are in that respect.

Suicide bombings are the loudest and most heartbreaking cries of despair; they are not some perverse take on Islam. They are the reality of our total moral and political failure and corruption when faced with compromising our own imperial and colonial interests.

The Palestinians are not indebted to us for anything. In fact they are our creditors. We owe them one country and a whole host of human rights.

[Tony]

The only viable solution is for Israel to declare total war and destroy the Palestinians and anyone that helps them. Peace can only be achieved through victory.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Tony
The only viable solution is for Israel to declare total war and destroy the Palestinians and anyone that helps them. Peace can only be achieved through victory.

How woudl they do that? Round them all up, put them in concentration camps? Kill them all. Israel would have to become Nazi Germany............Now that would be irony!


As far as the title of this thread. I don think there are Hamas sympathizers. Whenever there is a Hamas attack no one runs to the board and posts messages like "Yeee haw! Those jews got with they deserve, They should destroy all of them."

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy


How woudl they do that?



Notice where I said...

.....is for Israel to declare total war

that's how.


Round them all up, put them in concentration camps?


Why? I think its apparent that the Palestinians want, and are ready to die for "their land". I think Israel should accommodate them.

[Tmy]

Lets hear specifics Tony. How would your ethnic cleansing plan work? Would they round up all the Palis in the Israeli cities? Shoot them on sight. Bomb the Refugee cities into dust, or juts cut off their food and water and let them starve. Would they kill the children or just take them away from their parents. Sometimes its hard to distinguish a Pali from an Israeli. Would they make them wear little yellow crecent moons on their shirts? Tatoo them with numbers.

Maybe theyd be nice about it and just put them on ships and send them on their way. Im sure America would take them in. Better yet send them to eastern europe.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
Lets hear specifics Tony. How would your ethnic cleansing plan work? Would they round up all the Palis in the Israeli cities? Shoot them on sight. Bomb the Refugee cities into dust, or juts cut off their food and water and let them starve. Would they kill the children or just take them away from their parents. Sometimes its hard to distinguish a Pali from an Israeli. Would they make them wear little yellow crecent moons on their shirts? Tatoo them with numbers.




Bomb the cities and invade as a conquering force.

Im sure America would take them in.

I hope not, America has enough religious fanatics right now.

[AlH]

Originally posted by demon
Why then, in a land that has been illegally occupied for more than 50 years by an invading force, whose people are kicked out of their homes on a regular basis and are denied free movement in their own country do we expect a different set of rules and expectations?

Unlike the South Africans for example, in the case of the Palestinians, there is very little "official" moral indignation towards their plight. What little popular indignation there may be doesn't register on the official radar, and the little that does is conveniently swept under the carpet and called anti-Semitism.

The Palestinians have almost zero help from the outside world. They are partitioned off like animals in a zoo. They have curfews, they are losing their homes, they are dying... the humiliations are unimaginable. Also, there is more than just the physical and economic oppression. There is also a deep cultural and religious humiliation involved. The occupation strikes at the very heart of their identity and yet we have those who expect them to act like super-human Ghandis en masse.

Palestinians have been denied all or any protection for their inalienable and universally recognized rights, they have been denied all or any route to redress from those who have dispossessed them, they have been denied all or any international protection in line with the duties of the signatories to numerous international treaties and the international communtity.

Also, "Islam", is a non issue in this instance. It is a cover for all sorts of political and power realities. Suicide bombings, if we use one ounce of our empathetic powers, are just about as low as the human spirit can sink into despair and loss . That "evil Islam" has become the issue which those who seek to deny Palestinian rights gather round in celebratory condemnation is a real spectacle, I dont think those "natives" are as hideous as we are in that respect.

Suicide bombings are the loudest and most heartbreaking cries of despair; they are not some perverse take on Islam. They are the reality of our total moral and political failure and corruption when faced with compromising our own imperial and colonial interests.

The Palestinians are not indebted to us for anything. In fact they are our creditors. We owe them one country and a whole host of human rights.

Not being as knowledgeable about the Middle East as some here, I have some questions.

Looking at http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_maps.php more specifically http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0dsp0 it shows the Gaza Strip under Egyptian control and the West Bank under Jordanian control for the period from 1949 to 1967. Did the Palestinians rebel against the Egyptian and/or Jordanian control of their homelands? It seems from this site that the area the Palestinians were set up with in 1947 did not fall under Israeli control until the 1967 War. So Palestine has been under the Israeli boot only 36 years. What steps were the Palestinians taking to liberate their homeland during the prior 18 years from the other occupiers? What tactics were they using and when did they start using those they use today?

Prior to WWI, the area was controlled by the Ottoman Turks. What kind of activities were going on by the Palestinians to "free" their country back then?

The League of Nations mandate in 1920 gave a large region to Palestine. http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0dt00 which was changed to http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0dt10 in 1923.

Are there factions in Palestine working either through accepted means or through terrorism to obtain these regions back from Jordan or should Jordan be considered the "true" Palestine and efforts really should be focused on merging the disputed regions with Jordan?

[Tmy]

Originally posted by AlH


Not being as knowledgeable about the Middle East as some here, I have some questions.

Looking at http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_maps.php more specifically http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0dsp0 it shows the Gaza Strip under Egyptian control and the West Bank under Jordanian control for the period from 1949 to 1967. Did the Palestinians rebel against the Egyptian and/or Jordanian control of their homelands? It seems from this site that the area the Palestinians were set up with in 1947 did not fall under Israeli control until the 1967 War. So Palestine has been under the Israeli boot only 36 years. What steps were the Palestinians taking to liberate their homeland during the prior 18 years from the other occupiers? What tactics were they using and when did they start using those they use today?

Prior to WWI, the area was controlled by the Ottoman Turks. What kind of activities were going on by the Palestinians to "free" their country back then?

The League of Nations mandate in 1920 gave a large region to Palestine. http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0dt00 which was changed to http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0dt10 in 1923.

Are there factions in Palestine working either through accepted means or through terrorism to obtain these regions back from Jordan or should Jordan be considered the "true" Palestine and efforts really should be focused on merging the disputed regions with Jordan?

Are you trying to say that the Palistinians dont mind be 2nd class occupied citizens but they are only fighting Israel because they are anti-semites.

Saddam argured that there was no such thing as "Kuwait" and that land really belongs to Iraq. Shoudl we have let him take the place over?

The sides really need to forget the regions history and live in the now.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by c0rbin

Corplinx, you make this statement (whether you mean to or not) in the title of your thread and the first post. You assume that one sympathizes with Hamas if they find Isreal's actions and reactions wrong.


What I said was, I had a problem fathoming why some people always see Israel as a boogeyman and always defend Hamas. Its that simple. There are people on this board who do this. I only saw a limited set of options for having such a one-sided view. I presented them. Yes, anti-semitism has to be a possibility. It may not be the reason, but I don't see the problem with asking if thats the reason. Unless interrogative equals accusation.......

I genuinely wanted to know what goes on in the mind of a Hamas sympathizer. So far, this is what I have found:

A. Both sides are equally to blame, you can't blame one side ever without blaming the other. Ergo, when Israel gets attacked, its Israel's fault. Equal blame is tool used by idiots to compromise. Blame may lie on both sides, but I think trying to piecemeal it out is ludicrous for individual acts of terror and israeli retaliation.

B. If you ask about why a strict Hamas sympathizer acts the way they do, you get accused of being a one-sided [insert list of ad hominems here].

[Gem]

Peace can only be achieved through victory.

Like Kane from the Commadn and Conquer series used to say:

Peace through Power!

Gem

[corplinx]

I am not sure the Palestians want peace. Here they are watching Sharon and their new leader announce that settlements are going to be dismantled. Along comes Hamas who attacks. Do the palestinians lynch the widely known terrorists in their midst? No. In fact, these people are heroes to them. As much as I hate to say it, it might take a palestinian civil war to end this madness. The palestinians are going to have to the hamas know that they want self-rule and prosperity instead of perpetual bloodshed.

I think they would appreciate freedom more if they had to fight for it.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by corplinx


A. Both sides are equally to blame, you can't blame one side ever without blaming the other. Ergo, when Israel gets attacked, its Israel's fault. Equal blame is tool used by idiots to compromise. Blame may lie on both sides, but I think trying to piecemeal it out is ludicrous for individual acts of terror and israeli retaliation.

B. If you ask about why a strict Hamas sympathizer acts the way they do, you get accused of being a one-sided [insert list of ad hominems here].

Heres my view. Im sure you would toss me in the hamas sympathizer group (apparently your definintion of Hamas sympathizer is anyone who ever dares to criticize Israels behavior)

To be fair I think I am harder on Israel. Heres why. I sort of see 3 players, Hamas (or any Pali terror group), Israel, and the Palistinian people. Im harder on Israels actions because they are being dictated by an elected government body. Hamas on the other hand is not the Palistinian military. A Pali leader like Abbas does not have the same control over Hamas (hey that rythmes) as Sharon has over his military. In short, I expect better behavior from the Israelis.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Tmy


Heres my view. Im sure you would toss me in the hamas sympathizer group (apparently your definintion of Hamas sympathizer is anyone who ever dares to criticize Israels behavior)


Why would I do that? I provided a definition in my first post in the thread of the sort of people I am talking about. Criticism of Israel doesn not make you a "hamas sympathizer".

[Baker]

Originally posted by Tmy


Heres my view. Im sure you would toss me in the hamas sympathizer group (apparently your definintion of Hamas sympathizer is anyone who ever dares to criticize Israels behavior)

To be fair I think I am harder on Israel. Heres why. I sort of see 3 players, Hamas (or any Pali terror group), Israel, and the Palistinian people. Im harder on Israels actions because they are being dictated by an elected government body. Hamas on the other hand is not the Palistinian military. A Pali leader like Abbas does not have the same control over Hamas (hey that rythmes) as Sharon has over his military. In short, I expect better behavior from the Israelis.

The PA has no control over Hamas??
Abbas has 58000 armed men in his security force more then enough to take care of Hamas if they really wanted to plus there is the issue of their revolving door prisons.
You blame Israel more even knowing the Palestinian’s are teaching their children to grow up to be suicide bombers and the destruction of Israel in their schoolbooks.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy


In short, I expect better behavior from the Israelis.

Why is it "better" to be lax in the defense of your country?

[Tmy]

Could you point me to an example were someone DEFENDS Hamas. I'd like to get a better understanding of what you mean.

As for Palistians lynching Hamas memembers. IS that really feasible. I compare it to Italian americans lynching or ratting out italian mobsters. Theyd get killed. Even if theyd like to see the mob gone, its too risky to challenge them.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Tony


Why is it "better" to be lax in the defense of your country?

Yeah Sharons tacits have done wonders for Israeli security.

I think Abbas is moving in the right direction. Sharon was getting better too. The recent fighting has really f-uped things.

I still think there is an underlieing peacelust. Just a few years ago there was relative calm in the region. Clinton where are you!

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy



I still think there is an underlieing peacelust. Just a few years ago there was relative calm in the region. Clinton where are you!


And just a few years ago I was 15, but things change, stop living in the past.

[c0rbin]

I had a problem fathoming why some people always see Israel as a boogeyman and always defend Hamas. Its that simple.

So you say. Now that you have some answers, try opening you mind to other perspectives.

A. Both sides are equally to blame, you can't blame one side ever without blaming the other. Ergo, when Israel gets attacked, its Israel's fault. Equal blame is tool used by idiots to compromise. Blame may lie on both sides, but I think trying to piecemeal it out is ludicrous for individual acts of terror and israeli retaliation.

You see, you are being closed minded. Hamas is to blame for using violence where other, more intelligent methods could prevail. Isreal is to blame for creating an aparthied state and using oppression as a social program. It is not one way or the other.

I do not "sympathize" with Hamas for killing students on the way to school. It is ignorant and violent and solves nothing as demonstrated by the years and years they have been at it. I do not "sympathize" with Isreal because their method of dealing with the issue is ignorant and violent and solves nothing as is evident by the years and years they have been at it.

I do sympathize with the people who have to live in that world with buses blowing up around their loved ones and missles flying through their neighborhoods--Muslim and Jew.

Can you get your brain around that?

strict Hamas sympathizer

What is a "strict Hamas sympathizer"?

[corplinx]

Originally posted by c0rbin


Can you get your brain around that?



Have for years son. Here's your sign.

[Baker]

Originally posted by c0rbin

You see, you are being closed minded. Hamas is to blame for using violence where other, more intelligent methods could prevail. Isreal is to blame for creating an aparthied state and using oppression as a social program. It is not one way or the other.


The security requirements of the nation, and a violent insurrection in the territories, forced Israel to impose restrictions on Arab residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

In reality, the Palestinian Arab question is the result of the conflict, which stems from Arab unwillingness to accept a Jewish State in the Middle East.
I see you also ignored my link to the Palestinian school book as every pro terror/ Palestinian supporter has.

[AlH]

Originally posted by Tmy


Are you trying to say that the Palistinians dont mind be 2nd class occupied citizens but they are only fighting Israel because they are anti-semites.

Saddam argured that there was no such thing as "Kuwait" and that land really belongs to Iraq. Shoudl we have let him take the place over?

The sides really need to forget the regions history and live in the now.

No, I am just asking what they did when Jordan occupied the West Bank. Was there a nationalistic movement to get them out? How did it evolve into the violent movement today?

If one argues that the only reason they fight the Israelis is because they occupy their land, then, it seems that they should have protested the Jordanian control of their land. Did they?

If they did not oppose the occupation from 1949 to 1967, then one could claim that they were "happy" with their overlords (possibly because they were culturally similar) but became unhappy when the Israelis took control, maybe because of anti-semitism, maybe because the take-over was more apparent as military, maybe because they had family or friends killed during the war and sought revenge, maybe they suddenly became second-class citizens under Israeli rule. I don't know, that is why I am asking.

Was the period of Egyptian/Jordanian occupation peaceful and prosperous for the Palestinians? Did they have full rights and freedoms equal to everyone else in those countries?

With statements like In an interview for Qatari satellite TV station al-Jazeera, a man described as a leading Hamas member in Gaza, Mahmud al-Zahhar, predicted that Palestinian attacks on Israelis were imminent "to show them that an eye is for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". being made (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/2983426.stm) implies a cycle of seeking revenge, not anti-semitism, although the Jewish/Muslim allows an easy sorting into us and not-like-us groups for simplistic identification/targeting.

[c0rbin]

Here's your sign.

Where is it?

[c0rbin]

I see you also ignored my link to the Palestinian school book as every pro terror/ Palestinian supporter has.

Sorry, I don;t see that in this thread. Perhaps it is in another thread that I haven;t read, or missed.

I would not mind if you shared it.

[Malachi151]

Hey, I just now looked at this thread, becuase I really don't care about the subject much and I see you throwing my name into the mix?

No way.

My position on this has always been that there is blame on both sides and that its an issue that is more complex than I feel that I, or most other people not directly invovled, have any way to judge.

I think it would have been better had Israel never been formed, but now that it is I just hope of a peaceful resolution like anyone else. I think that Palastinians should have taken the deal they were offered a few years ago that gave them like 98% of the land they were asking for.

I'm not a Hamas sympathizer so don't throw my name into the mix.

Many of my favorite people are Jews (Marx, Eisntein, Trotsky, Woody Allen, Seinfeld :) ), calling me anti-Semitic is rediculous. Acknowledging that the existance of Israel is bound to create problems is stating the obvious.

[Baker]

Originally posted by c0rbin


Sorry, I don;t see that in this thread. Perhaps it is in another thread that I haven;t read, or missed.

I would not mind if you shared it.

You are correct it was another thread pardon me here it is again.

http://memri.org/book/MEMRI_Book_PGS.pdf
Pages of important interest.
page 14
page 20
page 28
page 43
page 64