GOOSE DIRECT: Israel Trains Kurds

[FreeChile]

Is this the smoking gun for the Arab media or simply a wild-goose chase?

BBC Story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5364982.stm

BBC Newsnight Video, if you can
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm

Israelis 'trains Kurdish forces'
By Magdi Abdelhadi
Arab affairs analyst, BBC News

The BBC has obtained evidence that Israelis have been giving military training to Kurds in northern Iraq.

A report on the BBC TV programme Newsnight showed Israeli experts in northern Iraq, drilling Kurdish militias in shooting techniques.

[Kopji]

Could be true. The Kurds have a comparatively secular outlook. Maybe they should have their own country.

[Rob Lister]

Could be true. The Kurds have a comparatively secular outlook. Maybe they should have their own country.

Concur, for the most part.

[Kopji]

It would be sad to fight Turkey after all that work, but I could easily give up part of Iran and Iraq for a Kurdish state. :)

[Rob Lister]

It would be sad to fight Turkey after all that work, but I could easily give up part of Iran and Iraq for a Kurdish state. :)

There is that -- the Turkey issue -- but I'm sure that problem would be fairly easy to overcome politically...so long as the UN stayed out of it, that is.

[Mycroft]

It would be sad to fight Turkey after all that work, but I could easily give up part of Iran and Iraq for a Kurdish state. :)

Ah eff Turkey. They've had a free ride since that whole Ottoman thing. It's time things got shaken up there some more.

[The Fool]

Ah eff Turkey. They've had a free ride since that whole Ottoman thing. It's time things got shaken up there some more.
Shaken up by terrorist bombings?

[a_unique_person]

Shaken up by terrorist bombings?

Unless I'm wrong, it's another 'joke'.

[RyanRoberts]

Shaken up by terrorist bombings?

But doesn't giving people land tackle the root causes of terrorism?

[a_unique_person]

But doesn't giving people land tackle the root causes of terrorism?

As history has shown, it is a hell of a lot easier to p*** people off than it is to make up again. The moral of the story is...

[Skeptic]

As history has shown, it is a hell of a lot easier to p*** people off than it is to make up again. The moral of the story is...

...surrender in advance, so they won't get p****ed at you.

[zenith-nadir]

13:55 22/09/2006 (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/766295.html)

Norwegian police foil plot to behead Israeli ambassador

Four men suspected in connection with an attack on an Oslo synagogue are also accused of plotting to blow up the U.S. and Israeli embassies and decapitating the Israeli ambassador to Norway, media reports said Friday.

The four were arrested Tuesday in connection with an attack on the Mosaic Religious Community synagogue.

Look! Over there! It's Israelis training Kurds to shoot guns! Call the BBC! :rolleyes:

[Hutch]

Geez, ZN, if you're going to try and derail, be a little less obvious...

The issue of Israelis training the Kurds (if it is true) does make things more complicated in a situation that is already complex enough...

*The US will catch heck, since we are responsible for Iraq's security which means in Arab (and Iraqi sunni/Shiite eyes) we would have had to approve this effort (even if the Israelis back-doored us and did it on the QT). Ain't likely to help in making Iraq any more peaceful.

*Turkey has been a secular state since the 1920's and has staunchly opposed Islamic radicals. But neither they or Iran are likely to concur with an Independent Kurdistan; watch how fast they work together.

*I can see the benefit to Israel; either they are training/arming a potential ally in the region, or giving the Arabs something else to tear apart and digest while Isreal continues to consolidate it's planned territory. Perhaps a bit bloody-minded on my part, but bloody-mindedness seems to work best in that region of the planet.

*Interesting Times...."

[Darat]

I have great sympathy for the Kurds (and think it's a stain on many of our countries how they were pretty much abandoned after the first Gulf War) but like all the other groups I may have some sympathy with that does not excuse the terrorism some Kurds have been using.

"Kurdish-Iraq" seems to be relatively stable and if they need to be trained in anti-terrorist techniques and so on then Israel is (unfortunately through necessity) probably the best country to provide such training.

[a_unique_person]

Isn't that the question? Are they being trained in anti-terrorism, or to help the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey to fight for their own state? Some Kurds are currently engaged in a terrorism campaign against Turkey.

[Darth Rotor]

It would be sad to fight Turkey after all that work, but I could easily give up part of Iran and Iraq for a Kurdish state. :)
Are you a Turk, Iranian, or an Iraqi? If not, your offer of someone else's turf, however debated at this point, is rather empty, don't you think?

The Israelis in Iraq? Training Kurds? Can someone please call Jerusalem and ask them to either learn how to remain covert or knock it off?

This is a slap in the face to both Shia and Sunni Arabs.

If this report is true, and GW does not immediately chide Jerusalem publicly for this, the potential for another Abu Ghraib, self inflicted wound is here in the propaganda war.

WTF are these people thinking?

DR

[zenith-nadir]

This is a slap in the face to both Shia and Sunni Arabs.

DR

Why? So that Kurds can defend themselves better from attacks by Shia and Sunni Arabs?

Geez, ZN, if you're going to try and derail, be a little less obvious...It's not intended as a derail...it's a wakeup call. Across the globe islamists are plotting and planning terror attacks - see: the Norway story I posted - and Israelis:

giving military training to Kurds in northern Iraq.

...is a non-story.

Who cares? Does it harm America? Nope. Does it harm the E.U. ? Nope. Does it harm the Kurds? Nope. So who does it really bug that Israelis may be giving military training to Kurds? Why the folks who hate Israel and Kurds.

I can see the benefit to Israel; either they are training/arming a potential ally in the region, or giving the Arabs something else to tear apart and digest while Isreal continues to consolidate it's planned territory. Perhaps a bit bloody-minded on my part, but bloody-mindedness seems to work best in that region of the planet.(emphasis mine)

It's all about Israeli colonialism isn't it? :rolleyes:

p.s. The reason I am sensitive is that if it was French, British or Americans training Kurds nobody would really give a flying Rule8, but if an Israeli trains Kurds look out.. the sky is falling.

[a_unique_person]

We see so much about Israeli protest here about terrorism, but here are Israelis training a group that is actively engaged in terrorism.

[zenith-nadir]

We see so much about Israeli protest here about terrorism, but here are Israelis training a group that is actively engaged in terrorism....and their names are?

What is the exact name of the group or people - that is actively engaged in terrorism - that the Israelis are training?

The BBC story doesn't mention Kurdish terrorists, or the training of Kurdish terrorists, infact it doesn't mention terrorism at all.

Look at the story a_u_p, the people most pissed off about this are:

"Iran and Syria, which have long accused the Kurds of allowing the Israelis to operate on Iraqi territory, will most likely demand an explanation from the government in Baghdad."

The folks helping support and supply the Iraqi insurgency are the ones most pissed off that Israelis are training Kurds.

[Darat]

....snip...

It's not intended as a derail...it's a wakeup call. Across the globe islamists are plotting and planning terror attacks - see: the Norway story I posted - and Israelis:



You seem to have got things back to front - Muslim terrorists plotting and to even carrying out terrorist attacks is not news, its something we know is going on all the time. That is the "non-story". (Indeed it rarely these days seems to hit the front pages even when dozens of people are blown up.)

Israel training a group in secret is news (or rather apparently wasn't) so that is a story.

You may what to argue what is more important but that is a different issue.

[Darat]

We see so much about Israeli protest here about terrorism, but here are Israelis training a group that is actively engaged in terrorism.

That is not from the article that was linked to. Have you any evidence that Israel is training Kurdish terrorist groups?

[Darth Rotor]

Why? So that Kurds can defend themselves better from attacks by Shia and Sunni Arabs?

Who cares? Does it harm America? Nope. Does it harm the E.U. ? Nope. Does it harm the Kurds? Nope. So who does it really bug that Israelis may be giving military training to Kurds? Why the folks who hate Israel and Kurds.

(emphasis mine)

It's all about Israeli colonialism isn't it? :rolleyes:

p.s. The reason I am sensitive is that if it was French, British or Americans training Kurds nobody would really give a flying Rule8, but if an Israeli trains Kurds look out.. the sky is falling.
Exactly, and it is all politics. The Israelis are not considered remotely neutral enough to be acceptable as assistance providers in Iraq. Did the Iraqi government invite them in? Did they authorize this foreign assistance package? I'd be interested to hear about that.

I don't get your insensitivity to Arab sensibilities over Iraq. The presence of Israeli soldiers in Iraq plays right into the hands of the whole "Jew-Crusader conspiracy" line of rhetoric, if confirmed. Why make true, even in a small way, the outrageous claims of the Arab street's demagogues about Zionist expansion? It's bad enough that Americans are all over Iraq, at the political level.

Someone asks for evidence of Jew Crusader plots against arabs. On an Arab analogue of JREF, this story is linked to, and whoa: evidence there is, in the form of IDF soldiers. Sure, there is more here than meets the eye, but there you go.

Consider removing the blinders, Z-N. There is more than one side to this coin.

Oh, wait, do the initials "Z-N" actually stand for :rolleyes: "Zionist Nationalist?" (J/K) :cool: Are you advocating Israeli infiltration into Northern Iraq? :jaw-dropp :crowded: :eek: :eye-poppi (/sarcasm)

DR

[Darat]

....snip...

The folks helping support and supply the Iraqi insurgency are the ones most pissed off that Israelis are training Kurds.

You are stating a supposition from the the article as a if it is a fact - granted it seems very reasonable and very likely but from the article we don't know this.

[a_unique_person]

That is not from the article that was linked to. Have you any evidence that Israel is training Kurdish terrorist groups?

The whole situation in the that area is diabolically complex. The Kurds are victims of terror in Iraq? Yet they are also the perpetrators of terrorism in Turkey.

[webfusion]

I am of the opinion that the "Israeli operatives" involved are not active-duty IDF soldiers. They are mercenaries contracted by a company known as CACI International, which pays ex-IDF commandos to perform these training exercises. It's a legitimate business enterprise.
http://www.caci.com/

[zenith-nadir]

The Israelis are not considered remotely neutral enough to be acceptable as assistance providers in Iraq. Why? What makes Israelis incapable of being assistance providers in Iraq?

Did the Iraqi government invite them in?Did they authorize this foreign assistance package? I'd be interested to hear about that. That information is unavailable to all of us.

I don't get your insensitivity to Arab sensibilities over Iraq. Can't you see the hypocrisy? It's staring you in the face. Palestinians must have a country to call their own, why it's the so-called "root cause" of all evils in the middle east.... and every arab country stands behind that 100%.

Yet Kurds - who've lived where they are for several millennia, far longer than any Palestinian ever lived in "Palestine" - are denied a country to call their own. And that's ok isn't it...it's totally acceptable - even on JREF - to say Kurds don't deserve a chunk of Iraq and Turkey to call their own. The very same folks that demand Palestinians must have a country, (namely Iran, Syria and Turkey), deny Kurds a homeland.

The presence of Israeli soldiers in Iraq plays right into the hands of the whole "Jew-Crusader conspiracy" line of rhetoric, if confirmed....and the only folks who believe the "Jew-Crusader conspiracy" line of rhetoric are the same folks who also believe in the "Christian/Western-Crusade against Islam". ;)

Why make true, even in a small way, the outrageous claims of the Arab street's demagogues about Zionist expansion? It's bad enough that Americans are all over Iraq, at the political level. If an Israeli is in northern Iraq training Kurds we all know it has nothing to do with "Zionist expansion". The only folks who believe the "Zionist expansion" line of rhetoric are the same folks who also believe in the "Christian-Crusader domination of the Middle East" and the "American crusade against Islam". ;)

Consider removing the blinders, Z-N. There is more than one side to this coin.I am not arguing that there are two sides to every coin, only that the other side of this coin involves hypocrisy on a grand scale.

Oh, wait, do the initials "Z-N" actually stand for :rolleyes: "Zionist Nationalist?" (J/K) :cool: Are you advocating Israeli infiltration into Northern Iraq? :jaw-dropp :crowded: :eek: :eye-poppi (/sarcasm)

DRIn all seriousness the presence of Israelis in New York doesn't mean Israeli colonialism of America...Israelis in London doesn't mean Israeli colonialism of Europe...and Israelis in Northern Iraq doesn't mean Israeli colonialism of Iraq. That is just woo woo logic.

You seem to have got things back to front - Muslim terrorists plotting and to even carrying out terrorist attacks is not news, its something we know is going on all the time.Agreed. That is why I posted a story that even in Norway islamists pose a threat.

Israel training a group in secret is news...

I disagree. Many folks around the globe are trained "in secret" by many countries. So what? We are not facing a global threat from Israelis training Kurds. It is much to do about nothing. The only people who think this is bad news are the folks against the Kurds, namely Sunnis and shiites in Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey. You know, those folks who deny Kurds a homeland.

You are stating a supposition from the the article as a if it is a fact - granted it seems very reasonable and very likely but from the article we don't know this. Not at all. From the BBC story:

"Iran and Syria, which have long accused the Kurds of allowing the Israelis to operate on Iraqi territory, will most likely demand an explanation from the government in Baghdad." (emphasis mine) Who are the folks helping the Iraqi insurgency? Iran and Syria.

[Cleon]

Isn't that the question? Are they being trained in anti-terrorism, or to help the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey to fight for their own state? Some Kurds are currently engaged in a terrorism campaign against Turkey.

If the story is accurate, I think Israel is trying to gain allies, since they (unlike the US) will have figured out that the chances of Iraq becoming an ally on its own are slim-to-none.

What I think they want is for Iraqi Kurdistan to become independent; they don't want the Turkish Kurds involved, because A) they really have nothing to gain by pissing Turkey off and B) the main Kurdish force in Turkey fighting for independence is the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), a Marxist-Leninist party/armed force that is no more friendly to Israel (or the West) than Hizballah. They don't want those people to have a state, but they could possibly leverage the Iraqi Kurds, who have a history of being willing to work with the West, into becoming an ally.

Of course, if Israel continues along this route, Turkey will become involved, one way or another. Either the PKK will start building up its forces in Iraqi Kurdistan (if it hasn't already), the Turkish Kurds will see Iraqi Kurdistan as an inspiration, Iraqi Kurdistan will want to "liberate" Turkish Kurdistan, or more likely, a combination of all of the above.

Then, of course, you have the Iranian Kurds. I figure Israel, if they're truly training the Iraqi Kurds, are probably trying to make headway with the Iranian Kurds as well in order to try and destabilize the country. They'd have to keep a much lower profile--in Iraq, the occupying US forces will back them, but in Iran, they'd have to keep out of sight of Tehran and the PKK, which is fairly influential in the Kurdish community there. With enough resources and effort, though, I'm sure they could put together or help to grow a guerilla force that Ahmadinejad would consider a threat.

Which means that this lovely little situation will be bringing into conflict Israel, Iraq (which is already a haven of stability), Turkey, and Iran. Worst-case scenario, of course, is that this becomes an armed conflict, if not all-out war. At which point Syria would probably be dragged into it, Lebanon would go (further) into chaos, and Jordan would find it very, very difficult to maintain the neutral face they've been trying to put on.

[Darth Rotor]

I am of the opinion that the "Israeli operatives" involved are not active-duty IDF soldiers. They are mercenaries contracted by a company known as CACI International, which pays ex-IDF commandos to perform these training exercises. It's a legitimate business enterprise.
http://www.caci.com/
Makes sense, a whole lot more sense than IDF folks being sent and blessed by Maliki government.

"Contractors" and "mercs" are near cousins in Iraq in a few places. My brain is thinking "Blackwater." Perhaps that fusion of terms (thanks, DoD) informs the perception that these are Israeli mercs training Kurds.

DR

[Darat]

I am of the opinion that the "Israeli operatives" involved are not active-duty IDF soldiers. They are mercenaries contracted by a company known as CACI International, which pays ex-IDF commandos to perform these training exercises. It's a legitimate business enterprise.
http://www.caci.com/

How come? Is there something in the Israeli press about this?

Obviously if it is the case then albeit it will still be spun by the anti-USA/Israel/west/Teletubbies as terrible evidence of the plans of the "evil [insert this week's rulers of the world]" there really isn't much to it beyond "company gets paid to train Kurds".

[Darat]

...snip...
Not at all. From the BBC story:

(emphasis mine) Who are the folks helping the Iraqi insurgency? Iran and Syria.

ZN - you have re-quoted the sentence but still not read what it actually says:

"Iran and Syria, which have long accused the Kurds of allowing the Israelis to operate on Iraqi territory, will most likely demand an explanation from the government in Baghdad."

Look at the bit I have underlined - that is speculation, perhaps a supposition of what will happen - it is not what has happened.

[Darth Rotor]

Why? What makes Israelis incapable of being assistance providers in Iraq?
Politics, as I stated in my post.
That information is unavailable to all of us.
Yeah, too bad, I'd be very interested to see what Maliki and his guys have to say on this, if anything.
Can't you see the hypocrisy? It's staring you in the face. Palestinians must have a country to call their own, why it's the so-called "root cause" of all evils in the middle east.... and every arab country stands behind that 100%.
Funny, I don't see any hyprocisy going on here in Iraq. Politically, the clean hands of an assistance mission is important for the mission not to draw negative attention. The reality of politics includes spin. Israel protests its innocence, but here are (allegedly, it may be a bad report) Israelis aiding and abetting the military readiness of . . . a group that may seek further autonamy, which in turn weakens an Arab state? Sure, a bit of slippery slope, but given Iraq's instability and the Kurdish irredentist agenda, not an unreasonable one.
Yet Kurds - blah blah Palestine blah blah even on JREF - to say Kurds don't deserve a chunk of Iraq and Turkey to call their own.
Lines on the map are drawn in blood for the most part. At present, the lines of Iraq are still roughly as the Brits drew them, in the blood of 1914-1918. The reinforcement of that, in Iran, Turkey, and Iraq, has since been drawn in quite a bit of Kurdish Blood. "Deserves" is a red herring. The Cherokee "deserve" all of Tennessee. So sorry, they lost it, the lines on the map were redrawn with blood and iron.

That's reality.

Israel's lines were drawn too in blood and iron. More than once.

That's reality.
"and the only folks who believe the "Jew-Crusader conspiracy" line of rhetoric are the same folks who also believe in the "Christian/Western-Crusade against Islam". ;)"
You want to ignore a a few hundred million people with an attitude about this? I don't. Working with people is hard to do if you keep sticking your finger in their eye.
If an Israeli is in northern Iraq training Kurds we all know it has nothing to do with "Zionist expansion".
We know nothing of the sort. I think webfusion found a more likely explanation, however. (See his CACI comment) Israel is in a tough strategic position, locally. Any small move (see 10 years of defense cooperation with Turkey) they can make to enhance their security position I'd find likely they would take. Making friends in Kurdish lands as a counter to Syria and or a future Iraq that has a Shia Majority? Hezbollah is Shia too? It's a rational approach to a very difficult strategic position.
I am not arguing that there are two sides to every coin, only that the other side of this coin involves hypocrisy on a grand scale.
The great throwaway line, "hypocrisy." Come up with another brand of soap, OK? That one won't wash the stain of BS away anymore. Politics is here to stay, your ideal world won't come any time soon, no matter how ofter you scream "hypocrisy" at the top of your lungs. Conflating every darn situation with the Palestinian mess is intellecually lazy, from where I sit.
In all seriousness the presence of Israelis in New York doesn't mean Israeli colonialism of America...Israelis in London doesn't mean Israeli colonialism of Europe...and Israelis in Northern Iraq doesn't mean Israeli colonialism of Iraq. That is just woo woo logic.
Bogus analogy too, Mr Woo Z-N, boozin, alcohol abusin. :cool: Iraq is on the cusp of being torn apart by internal forces. Try an analogy that might almost fit the case, OK? Foreign agents provoceteur, like the hundred or so Iranian Pasdaran in Bosnia, in the 1990's, supporting the Muslim of Bosnia, are most certainly something to be concerned with. See also, for a different look, American agents provoceteur (Landsdale and friends) in Viet Nam in the late 1950's, if we look at things from Ho's perspective.
Israelis openly in the US are a non issue. Mossad agents in the US without US permission and acquiescence is an issue.

Digging into the backround to the stories of those infamous movers/roof dancers that the CT guys love to throw around, you find what looks like an operation against Muslim sympathizers in US that Mossad hadn't fully coordinated with US. IIRC, they were sent home after a few months detention, FBI was irritated, and the Israeli's offered an apology, a mea culpa. Depends on the news source. Since most Americans aren't as paranoid as the average Arab vis a vis Israel, the fear of a Zionist Imperial conspiracy is muted or non existent. (We will ignore for the moment the more outspoken WN sorts who see a Jew in every wood pile. :rolleyes: )
That is why I posted a story that even in Norway islamists pose a threat.
Funnily enough, I agree with that assessment, perhaps for a different reason.
I disagree. Many folks around the globe are trained "in secret" by many countries. So what? We are not facing a global threat from Israelis training Kurds.
The people concerned are the locals in the region, just as the people concerned about the Pasdaran in Bosnia were locals: Italy, (NATO) Germans, etc. The Chinese probably dont' care a bit, I'll guess.

DR

[zenith-nadir]

Funny, I don't see any hyprocisy going on here in Iraq. Really? So do I have it right that the Kurds do not deserve a homeland as you believe the Palestinians deserve a homeland?

...given Iraq's instability and the Kurdish irredentist agenda, not an unreasonable one.Totally reasonable. But frankly Israelis giving Kurds military training will not in any way tip-the-balance nor will it destroy the status quo. It shall only give Kurds better military training.

The great throwaway line, "hypocrisy." Come up with another brand of soap, OK? That one won't wash the stain of BS away anymore. I find it the height of hypocrisy that the same countries demanding Israel give up land for a Palestinian state are the very same ones who deny the Kurds a state. It's hypocritical. There is no other word to describe it.

Iraq is on the cusp of being torn apart by internal forces. Who are supplied and supported by external forces in Syria, Iran, etc. ;)

[Darth Rotor]

Really? So do I have it right that the Kurds do not deserve a homeland as you believe the Palestinians deserve a homeland?
"Deserve" doesn't enter into it in either case. Don't try to put words into my mouth, I'll spit them out at you. The conflation of Palestinian and Kurdish situations is intellectually lazy.
But frankly Israelis giving Kurds military training will not in any way tip-the-balance nor will it destroy the status quo. It shall only give Kurds better military training.
Why do you presume that for the long term? Is it because you have never served in a military assistance or advisory capacity. (As I have) Part of that mission is developing a long term relationsip for the long term benefit of the assisting party.
I find it the height of hypocrisy that the same countries demanding Israel give up land for a Palestinian state are the very same ones who deny the Kurds a state. It's hypocritical. There is no other word to describe it.
Your conflation of the two is, again, more Johnny-One-Note drivel. Take each case on its own merits. I do.

Iraq's internal divisions preceded any external support. Former Yugoslavia, Part Deux, on Steroids.

Are you living in the fantasy land that DoD painted for you in a few years of spun press releases, that the primary source of Iraqi internecine warfare is due to foreigners? That isn't the case now, and it wasn't the case two years ago. Israelis (allegedly) adding fuel to that fire among Kurds is not in the long term interest of Iraqi stability, and is counterproductive to US strategic interests.

Nice political backstab, if the report is true. :P

DR

[geni]

Really? So do I have it right that the Kurds do not deserve a homeland as you believe the Palestinians deserve a homeland?

What methods do you think are accetable for the kurds to use in obtaining a homeland


Totally reasonable. But frankly Israelis giving Kurds military training will not in any way tip-the-balance nor will it destroy the status quo. It shall only give Kurds better military training.

The kurds are not stupid. If they are buying something then you can be fairly sure that it will furhter their objectives.

[zenith-nadir]

What methods do you think are accetable for the kurds to use in obtaining a homelandPeaceful methods which do not involve suicide bombers, car bombs and Islamist terror groups openly chanting "Death to __________! "

"Deserve" doesn't enter into it in either case. Don't try to put words into my mouth, I'll spit them out at you.You didn't answer the original question. ;)

The conflation of Palestinian and Kurdish situations is intellectually lazy.Why? In the early 20th century Kurds began to consider the concept of nationalism, in the early 20th century Palestinians began to consider the concept of nationalism. The 1920 Treaty of Sevres was to have included the possibility of a Kurdish state in the region... which was never implemented. The 1937 Peel Commission proposal and United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 of November 29, 1947 were to have included the possibility of a Arab/Palestinian state in the region... which was never implemented. The KDP and the PUK have fought for power over northern Iraq. Hamas and Fatah are fighting over power in Gaza and the West Bank. The Kurd and Palestinian statehood timelines are almost identical.

The only difference is Arabs back the Palestinian state but totally reject a Kurdish one. That is hypocrisy.

Are you living in the fantasy land that DoD painted for you in a few years of spun press releases, that the primary source of Iraqi internecine warfare is due to foreigners? I don't live in a fantasy land. I accept that the Iraqi insurgency is made up of Iraqis. It is also accepted that the Iraqi insurgency has foreign fighters and gets weapons and support from external forces.

[Darth Rotor]

You didn't answer the original question. ;)
It is irrelevant. You fail to understand the underlying principle: borders are most often drawn in blood, and "deserve" is an appeal to fair play that is only valid if everyone really does come to the table to play fair . . . which in the Middle East, no one does. Take your "deserve" and try serving it to someone who'll swallow it. No sale, here.

PS: ZN, you attempted to put words in my mouth twice now, by asserting that I claim the Palestinians deserve a homeland. Had you bothered to read my initial "deserve comment" you will note that I treat the Kurds and Pal's equally in this regard, and as a further clarification in that matter, will spell it out for you in simpler terms:

"Dear Kurds and Pals --

Z-N hears you both deserve a homeland. You deserve what you can carve out for yourselves, with either good deal making, blood and iron, or a bit of both.

Best of luck in your several attempts to establish you desired homelands.

Caveat: there are people who'll shoot back, and who will make deals counter to your interests. Forewarned is forearmed, and forearms is half an octopus.

Hugs and shuggles

DR"
The only difference is Arabs back the Palestinian state but totally reject a Kurdish one. That is hypocrisy.
Not it isn't, it is a logical support of standard "like takes care of like" style of politics. See also US support of UK over France in some political matters, or US preference to Aussies versus Chinese in other political matters. It is politically consistent. The world doesn't run on platitudes, things get done via political artistry and deal making. It ain't fair, and I don't think it has ever been.
I don't live in a fantasy land. I accept that the Iraqi insurgency is made up of Iraqis. It is also accepted that the Iraqi insurgency has foreign fighters and gets weapons and support from external forces.
So, Israel adding to this Iraq mess as yet another foreign group exploiting Iraqi unrest is a good idea . . . how? (Again, if this report is truthful. I am still leaning toward webfusion's line of thinking.)

I am puzzled, in an unrelated note, at your self-flagellation in re the Abos. There is no need to apologize. The only moral imperative I see is to move forward with sincere purpose to improve the state of play to a better baseline.

No use crying over spilled milk.

DR

[geni]

Peaceful methods which do not involve suicide bombers, car bombs and Islamist terror groups openly chanting "Death to __________! "

So it would seem that giving them militry training is a bad idea. They are already quite caperble of defending themselves from other groups in Iraq with the exception of US and UK forces.

[zenith-nadir]

Israel adding to this Iraq mess as yet another foreign group exploiting Iraqi unrest is a good idea . . . how? (Again, if this report is truthful. I am still leaning toward webfusion's line of thinking.)"Adding to the Iraqi mess?" You give a few alleged Israelis training Kurds in Northern Iraq shooting techniques far too much weight in the grand scheme of things.

I am puzzled, in an unrelated note, at your self-flagellation in re the Abos. There is no need to apologize. The only moral imperative I see is to move forward with sincere purpose to improve the state of play to a better baseline. No use crying over spilled milk. DR

"self-flagellation?" "no need to apologize?" "No use crying over spilled milk?" :rolleyes: Goodness I underestimated your majesty. :p

So it would seem that giving them militry training is a bad idea. I have yet to form an opinion as to the positive or negative value teaching shooting techniques to Kurds. Perhaps it is a good thing to better protect them from the insurgency?

They are already quite caperble of defending themselves from other groups in Iraq with the exception of US and UK forces.What's the huge international incident that I am missing if some Israelis teach some Kurds shooting techniques? Really? If they were arming Kurds with Apache helicopters, Paveway missles and Merkava tanks I would have a different opinion on the subject. But honestly.. shooting techniques will not "tip the scale" in Iraq. I promise. :)

[Darth Rotor]

"Adding to the Iraqi mess?" You give a few alleged Israelis training Kurds in Northern Iraq shooting techniques far too much weight in the grand scheme of things.
If the de minimus case is indeed the truth, that is a valid point. However, at the political level, little things often get blown out of scale in the propaganda war. That's the reality of things. Not saying I like that, but there it is.
"self-flagellation?" "no need to apologize?" "No use crying over spilled milk?" :rolleyes: Goodness I underestimated your majesty. :p
How is an apology of any worth without the follow up, the sincere move forward to a better policy? It isn't. The follow up, the improvement in state of play, the substantive change is what matters.
What's the huge international incident that I am missing if some Israelis teach some Kurds shooting techniques? Really? If they were arming Kurds with Apache helicopters, Paveway missles and Merkava tanks I would have a different opinion on the subject. But honestly.. shooting techniques will not "tip the scale" in Iraq. I promise. :)
I am curious as to why, with the considerable US Military assistance work in progress in Kurdish areas that Israeli presence is necessary at all, given the political land mine that such presence carries with it. The issue isn't marksmanship.

Again, a valid presumption on the part of Arabs in Iraq (or who worry about such things) is that, if this report is is true, the Israelis are attempting to establish a relationship with Kurdish parties for their own long term benefit, within Iraq, and not (it appears, unknown) via the Maliki government.

DR

[Kopji]

Are you a Turk, Iranian, or an Iraqi? If not, your offer of someone else's turf, however debated at this point, is rather empty, don't you think?

The Israelis in Iraq? Training Kurds? Can someone please call Jerusalem and ask them to either learn how to remain covert or knock it off?

This is a slap in the face to both Shia and Sunni Arabs.

If this report is true, and GW does not immediately chide Jerusalem publicly for this, the potential for another Abu Ghraib, self inflicted wound is here in the propaganda war.

WTF are these people thinking?

DR
Calm down Darth, use the force. I can dream of retiring on my own little piece of Kurdistan some day. :rolleyes:

I like the Kurds but would agree with Darat on their terrorism strategy with Turkey.

If the Kurds wanted to shake things up they could offer to share some oil money to help rebuild Gaza or Lebanon.

The Sunni's and Shiites need a little face slapping. Maybe staring a powerful Kurdish state in the face could do that. I agree that it seems counterproductive to give this kind of assistance and then publicize it. But that's counterproductive seeming to me. From Israel's pov, splitting Iraq into factions might be just what they want.

So yeah. If GWB does not want that he oughta say something. Does anyone think the guy is really paying attention to the game that closely?

[Darth Rotor]

Calm down Darth, use the force. I can dream of retiring on my own little piece of Kurdistan some day. :rolleyes:
Chances are you'll have to fight for it, or someone will. Last I checked, that part of the world is filled with people who are very touchy about real estate.
If the Kurds wanted to shake things up they could offer to share some oil money to help rebuild Gaza or Lebanon.
Interesting idea. Is it "Kurdish" oil money to share? I don't understand the nuances of the deals in Iraqi northern oil well enought to know how that works.
The Sunni's and Shiites need a little face slapping. Maybe staring a powerful Kurdish state in the face could do that.
Maybe the US invading Iraq will cause democracy to break out spontaneously. :p
From Israel's pov, splitting Iraq into factions might be just what they want.
No argument there. Trouble is, that's good for Iran as well. Is THAT in Israel's interests? Not as I see it, perhaps I see it incorrectly.
So yeah. If GWB does not want that he oughta say something. Does anyone think the guy is really paying attention to the game that closely?
I wonder myself at times, given his recent gaffe in re Pakistan and its border.

DR

[geni]

I have yet to form an opinion as to the positive or negative value teaching shooting techniques to Kurds. Perhaps it is a good thing to better protect them from the insurgency?

The shia have no real interest in going that far north and the sunnies have enough trouble with the shia. The kurds are as safe as anyone in Iraq from the insurgency.


What's the huge international incident that I am missing if some Israelis teach some Kurds shooting techniques? Really?

Training is like to go beyond shooting. If they wanted that they could probably buy it from russia or china which would make more sense since they are likely mostly equiped with weapons that were at least designed in those countries. No if they are getting in israelis that is likely tactical advice.


If they were arming Kurds with Apache helicopters, Paveway missles and Merkava tanks I would have a different opinion on the subject. But honestly.. shooting techniques will not "tip the scale" in Iraq. I promise. :)

Israel lost 4 soldiers in operation summer rains. Israel lost 119 against Hezbollah. That is what training in tactics and fire discipline can do.

Fortunetly the Kurds are unlikely to attack other parts of Iraq. Unfortunely I doubt that really matters. The chaos caused by the kurdish section of Iraq declairing independace would be quite enough.

[a_unique_person]

The shia have no real interest in going that far north and the sunnies have enough trouble with the shia. The kurds are as safe as anyone in Iraq from the insurgency.



The Kurds are sitting on a lot of oil, IIRC, so there is going to be a lot of interest in their part of Iraq.

[geni]

The Kurds are sitting on a lot of oil, IIRC, so there is going to be a lot of interest in their part of Iraq.

from who? The sunni in iraq? they can't afford to fight a war on two fronts. The shia? The sunni are in the way. Turkey? Unless they start launching cross boarder raids turkey will not want to invade. Iran? They have other worries. Syria? Somehow I doubt it.

[Kopji]

A little more seriously, I think that US supporting the Kurds is one of the more clear things we need to do in the region. They did a lot on their own with just the no-fly zone being enforced. If the Sunnis & Shiites did half as much as the Kurds instead of descending into their old hate patterns, we'd be making progress.

[Mycroft]

We see so much about Israeli protest here about terrorism, but here are Israelis training a group that is actively engaged in terrorism.

That's funny, because when the people are Palestinian you're very careful to distinguish between the "extremists" who commit terrorism and the common everyday Palestinian who doesn't. Suddenly when it's Kurds, "the group" is actively engaged in terrorism, with no distinction between active terrorists, civilians, soldiers or even policemen.

It's almost as though who gets the benefit of the doubt depends less on the facts of the issue than it does who's aligned with Israel.










Oh yeah, since when are Kurds involved in terrorism?




Edited to add:

The whole situation in the that area is diabolically complex. The Kurds are victims of terror in Iraq? Yet they are also the perpetrators of terrorism in Turkey.

I bet the Kurds in Iraq and the Kurds in Turkey are different people, and that training a Kurd in Iraq doesn't automatically transfer those skills to Kurds in Turkey.

[a_unique_person]

That's funny, because when the people are Palestinian you're very careful to distinguish between the "extremists" who commit terrorism and the common everyday Palestinian who doesn't. Suddenly when it's Kurds, "the group" is actively engaged in terrorism, with no distinction between active terrorists, civilians, soldiers or even policemen.

It's almost as though who gets the benefit of the doubt depends less on the facts of the issue than it does who's aligned with Israel.










Oh yeah, since when are Kurds involved in terrorism?




Edited to add:



I bet the Kurds in Iraq and the Kurds in Turkey are different people, and that training a Kurd in Iraq doesn't automatically transfer those skills to Kurds in Turkey.

Time for another leg humping. This is why I cannot put you on ignore, Mycroft. As I found out when I took you off ignore a while ago, the backstabbing never stops.

[webfusion]

Darat asks "how come" (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1944379&postcount=29) I formed an opinion about the source of the Israeli trainers being CACI employees?

Inside information, not anything published in the media.
This is a non-story.

Here is a picture of the "shooting techniques" being taught:
http://theseoultimes.com/ST/db2/images/643-20040621191726.jpg
(photo link)
:D

[SteveGrenard]

Darat asks "how come" (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=1944379&postcount=29) I formed an opinion about the source of the Israeli trainers being CACI employees?

Inside information, not anything published in the media.
This is a non-story.

Here is a picture of the "shooting techniques" being taught:
http://theseoultimes.com/ST/db2/images/643-20040621191726.jpg
(photo link)
:D

It's obvious they are training the Kurds in their Wheys!

[fuelair]

Time for another leg humping. This is why I cannot put you on ignore, Mycroft. As I found out when I took you off ignore a while ago, the backstabbing never stops.

No offense, but noticing things in posts and mentioning them in posts is not really backstabbing - even if the post goes against you/your statement. As I understand it, backstabbing is generally done by a friendly appearing person who sneaks behind you (or doesn't have to sneak) and stabs. And it normally requires that it be hidden - this is a public forum so no hiding was done.

[a_unique_person]

No offense, but noticing things in posts and mentioning them in posts is not really backstabbing - even if the post goes against you/your statement. As I understand it, backstabbing is generally done by a friendly appearing person who sneaks behind you (or doesn't have to sneak) and stabs. And it normally requires that it be hidden - this is a public forum so no hiding was done.

I tried putting him on ignore, but the posts like this never stoppped.

[Darth Rotor]

I tried putting him on ignore, but the posts like this never stoppped.
Are you surprised at this? The signal to noise ratio in your commentary is roughly the reciprocal of your post count. Such offerings are bound to attract critical response on a board where a lot of sharp, and skeptical, people post.

DR

[Mycroft]

Time for another leg humping. This is why I cannot put you on ignore, Mycroft. As I found out when I took you off ignore a while ago, the backstabbing never stops.

I don't know what "leg humping" is, but with all due respect I think the observation deserves a response.

Why would you assume Iraqi Kurds would have any interest in terrorism? In Turkey, maybe, but these articles are clearly about Iraqi Kurds.

[a_unique_person]

Are you surprised at this? The signal to noise ratio in your commentary is roughly the reciprocal of your post count. Such offerings are bound to attract critical response on a board where a lot of sharp, and skeptical, people post.

DR

I wish. The most common form of rebuttal in the Politics Forum appears to be the personal attack.

[Mycroft]

I wish. The most common form of rebuttal in the Politics Forum appears to be the personal attack.

I don't see any personal attack in asking you why, without any evidence, you accuse Israelis of training Kurdish terrorists.

Will you either back up your claim or withdraw it?

[fuelair]

I don't know what "leg humping" is, but with all due respect I think the observation deserves a response.

Why would you assume Iraqi Kurds would have any interest in terrorism? In Turkey, maybe, but these articles are clearly about Iraqi Kurds.

Not sure how it is supposed to apply, but the only thing I know of called leg humping is when a horny dog jups up against your leg and rubs his penile appendage against same for stimulation (think Cartman and "red rocket" for similar ).:jaw-dropp :rolleyes:

[The Fool]

I don't see any personal attack in asking you why, without any evidence, you accuse Israelis of training Kurdish terrorists.

Will you either back up your claim or withdraw it?
If Israelis are training kurds I'm sure that the Kurds promise they are not terrorists and that the Israelis check to make sure they have not got thier fingers crossed when they state the promise. Maybe the PKK guys wear a big fancy hat or something? It must be possible to tell the goodies from the badies somehow....

[webfusion]

If Israelis are training kurds I'm sure that the Kurds promise they are not terrorists and that the Israelis check to make sure they have not got thier fingers crossed when they state the promise. Maybe the PKK guys wear a big fancy hat or something? It must be possible to tell the goodies from the badies somehow....

Israel routinely secures written statements from palestinians who are released from their prisons and gets them to promise never to engage in hostile terroristic acts again ----- it would seem logical that the CACI International company (employing Israeli ex-IDF officers) would obtain similar affidavits from their clients and keep these on file.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-02/2005-02-21-voa9.cfm?CFID=20405353&CFTOKEN=48426116
(Voice of America)

[gtc]

Lets assume an Australian company was giving military training to Irish people in the Republic of Ireland. It would be ridiculous to assume that they were training IRA members from Northern Ireland just because these people are Irish and some Irish people in Northern Ireland are terrorists.

Likewise if someone tried to accuse Arabs living in Australia of being terrorists, just because there are some Arab terrorists elsewhere, that would be racist or bigoted.

However, that same standard doesn't apply here. Why?

[The Fool]

Lets assume an Australian company was giving military training to Irish people in the Republic of Ireland. It would be ridiculous to assume that they were training IRA members from Northern Ireland just because these people are Irish and some Irish people in Northern Ireland are terrorists.

Likewise if someone tried to accuse Arabs living in Australia of being terrorists, just because there are some Arab terrorists elsewhere, that would be racist or bigoted.

However, that same standard doesn't apply here. Why?
If Australians were to conduct weapons training in the west bank it would be rediculous to assume that some would practice thier new found skills on Israelis....Nope, the australian mercenaries (or whoever they are) would be completely in the clear...

nope....training kurds in an are that kurdish terrorists have thier support bases is no proplem whatsoever....Anyway, if you read webfusion you will see that they quite possibly are asked to promise to be good....so I'm perfectly satisfied.

[Mycroft]

nope....training kurds in an are that kurdish terrorists have thier support bases is no proplem whatsoever....Anyway, if you read webfusion you will see that they quite possibly are asked to promise to be good....so I'm perfectly satisfied.

Do you have evidence that Kurdish terrorists have support bases in Iraq?

[Mycroft]

If Israelis are training kurds I'm sure that the Kurds promise they are not terrorists and that the Israelis check to make sure they have not got thier fingers crossed when they state the promise. Maybe the PKK guys wear a big fancy hat or something? It must be possible to tell the goodies from the badies somehow....

Do you also believe this assertion can be made without evidence?

Israelis are involved, therefore it must be something evil? Is that how it goes?

[The Fool]

Do you have evidence that Kurdish terrorists have support bases in Iraq?

I don't think that this is doubted by anyone. Read all about them on the world wide web....or maybe a newspaper?

read this for a start..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/09/AR2006080901514.html

[The Fool]

Do you also believe this assertion can be made without evidence?
Mycroft...I only said that "maybe" the Kurds in the PKK wear big fancy hats. You are correct, I have no proof of the big fancy hats.

Israelis are involved, therefore it must be something evil? Is that how it goes?
Nope, thats just the type of intro line you normally use before starting a leg humping session..I'm not interested, so how about you drop it.

[zenith-nadir]

Lets assume an Australian company was giving military training to Irish people in the Republic of Ireland. It would be ridiculous to assume that they were training IRA members from Northern Ireland just because these people are Irish and some Irish people in Northern Ireland are terrorists.

Likewise if someone tried to accuse Arabs living in Australia of being terrorists, just because there are some Arab terrorists elsewhere, that would be racist or bigoted.

However, that same standard doesn't apply here. Why?Easy. Because we are talking about Israelis here. As soon as Israelis are put into the mix some folks just have to go that extra mile with their imagination. Therefore it just can't be about some alleged Israelis teaching Kurd shooting techniques. It's about super-secret Israelis teaching Kurds - who are all terrorists cuz some Kurds are terrorists - shooting techniques. Ergo it is all evil and bad.

If it was Australians or British teaching Kurds shooting techniques the intellectual leap from "training Kurds" to "training Kurdish terrorists" would never be made.

[geni]

Lets assume an Australian company was giving military training to Irish people in the Republic of Ireland. It would be ridiculous to assume that they were training IRA members from Northern Ireland just because these people are Irish and some Irish people in Northern Ireland are terrorists.

Likewise if someone tried to accuse Arabs living in Australia of being terrorists, just because there are some Arab terrorists elsewhere, that would be racist or bigoted.

However, that same standard doesn't apply here. Why?

Well to start with there is a rather large militry force in the Republic of Ireland that doesn't really have links to the IRA. If they were training anyone else then questions would be asked.

[zenith-nadir]

Well to start with there is a rather large militry force in the Republic of Ireland that doesn't really have links to the IRA. If they were training anyone else then questions would be asked.So far not a single JREFer has proven who exactly the alleged Israelis have been training.

But this is a BBC story right? So it must be true just like these were true....

Thursday, 18 April, 2002, 10:44 GMT 11:44 UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1937048.stm)

A British forensic expert who has gained access to the West Bank city of Jenin says evidence points to a massacre by Israeli forces.

Thursday, 18 April, 2002, 20:01 GMT 21:01 UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1937387.stm)

Palestinian claims of an Israeli massacre in the camp have been denied, although British forensic expert Prof Derrick Pounder has said that the evidence points to large numbers of civilian dead.

Well there was no massacre in Jenin. So when I read a BBC story about Israelis training Kurds I am naturally skeptical that I am getting the real story.

On a side note, the BBC is so known for their skewed and biased coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that in 2005 the BBC Governors:

...commissioned the Independent Panel, chaired by Sir Quentin Thomas, to "assess the impartiality of BBC news and current affairs coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with particular regard to accuracy, fairness, context, balance and bias."

http://www.bbcgovernors.co.uk/docs/rev_israelipalestinian.html

Usually media companies don't investigate themselves publicly unless there is actually a problem.

[geni]

So far not a single JREFer has proven who exactly the alleged Israelis have been training.

I think it is safe to assume it wasn't the Iraqi army. The only other force in that area is the Peshmerga (run for the most part by the KDP or the PUK but they are allied at the moment). They are legal (because no one is stupid enough to declair otherwise). Are they terroists? That really rather depends on your defintion. Would they work with Israel? If it furthered their objectives. What are they up to? Thats the problem.



Usually media companies don't investigate themselves publicly unless there is actually a problem.

In this case the problem is that the lisence fee is up for review.

[webfusion]

If Australians were to conduct weapons training in the west bank it would be rediculous to assume that some would practice thier new found skills on Israelis....Nope, the australian mercenaries (or whoever they are) would be completely in the clear...

nope....training kurds in an are that kurdish terrorists have thier support bases is no proplem whatsoever....Anyway, if you read webfusion you will see that they quite possibly are asked to promise to be good....so I'm perfectly satisfied.


You are aware, no doubt, that the American CIA routinely provided training and weaponry to the Palestinian Police?
http://www.freeman.org/m_online/jun03/shaked.htm

The circumstances of the CIA training of the Palestinians are glaringly similar to the Kurdish situation ---
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/02/14/MNG50BANBE1.DTL

FYI.

[zenith-nadir]

I think it is safe to assume it wasn't the Iraqi army....and the evidence that it is safe to assume is?

The only other force in that area is the Peshmerga (run for the most part by the KDP or the PUK but they are allied at the moment)....and the evidence that the only other force in that area is?

Are they terroists? That really rather depends on your defintion....and the evidence they are terrorists is?

Would they work with Israel? If it furthered their objectives. What are they up to? Thats the problem....and the evidence regarding their objectives is?

And that is my whole point. A BBC story that references unnamed Israelis who are allegedly training unnamed Kurds and you have a big giant conspiracy theory buffet. ;)

[Darat]

So far not a single JREFer has proven who exactly the alleged Israelis have been training.

But this is a BBC story right? So it must be true just like these were true....



Well there was no massacre in Jenin. So when I read a BBC story about Israelis training Kurds I am naturally skeptical that I am getting the real story.


In what way were those two reports you linked to inaccurate?



On a side note, the BBC is so known for their skewed and biased coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that in 2005 the BBC Governors:


The BBC is not "so known" for its based conflict - partisans on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides have accused the BBC of such bias but as the recent independent report you linked to concluded - it isn't.



Usually media companies don't investigate themselves publicly unless there is actually a problem.

The BBC is not a "media company" it is a state owned public broadcaster, it has statutory obligations in its output and therefore has to react to criticism, which it did in this case and which you seemed to have forgotten to mention found no evidence of bias in its Palestine/Israeli coverage (it did find some faults).

[geni]

...and the evidence that it is safe to assume is?

US trains the Iraqi army and they have no need to bring in outside help.


...and the evidence that the only other force in that area is?
]

I think we would have noticed if turkey or iran had invaded. Other than the Iraqi army the Peshmerga are the only group who can legaly be trained in that area. I supose it could be local crime lords or just posibily the Turkmen but those two options are somewhat less likely and would result in rather more serious questions being asked of Israel.


...and the evidence they are terrorists is?


They really rather depends on the definition you are useing.


...and the evidence regarding their objectives is?


Their actions over the last 80 years. We know what the kurds want.


And that is my whole point. A BBC story that references unnamed Israelis who are allegedly training unnamed Kurds and you have a big giant conspiracy theory buffet. ;)

I doubt it.

[zenith-nadir]

US trains the Iraqi army and they have no need to bring in outside help.So your evidence is an assumption that the Iraqi army has no need to bring in outside help. Ok. I can buy that. Since the BBC article had no mention of Iraqi forces being trained by unnamed Israelis that point is moot.

I think we would have noticed if turkey or iran had invaded. Other than the Iraqi army the Peshmerga are the only group who can legaly be trained in that area.And the evidence that "the Peshmerga are the only group who can legaly be trained in that area" is? What are the legal statutes you can point me to.

I supose it could be local crime lords or just posibily the Turkmen but those two options are somewhat less likely and would result in rather more serious questions being asked of Israel. So the intellectual leap is that the Kurds being trained are A) terrorists or B) local crime lords. As I said before if it wasn't a BBC article about unnamed Israelis training unnamed Kurds this intellectual leap - terrorists or crime lords are being trained by Israelis - would not be made so easily.

Their actions over the last 80 years. We know what the kurds want. An independant homeland? Considering they're an ethnic group with about 30 million people who have lived there for several millennia I'd say not wanting to live as Turks or Iraqis is a valid desire.

[geni]

And the evidence that "the Peshmerga are the only group who can legaly be trained in that area" is? What are the legal statutes you can point me to.

Can you read arabic?

Anyway here is some information.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/8175/#1


So the intellectual leap is that the Kurds being trained are A) terrorists or B) local crime lords.


Strawman. If you want to rule out the peshmerga then crime lords are all that is left that could be ethnicaly kurdish.


As I said before if it wasn't a BBC article about unnamed Israelis training unnamed Kurds this intellectual leap - terrorists or crime lords are being trained by Israelis - would not be made so easily.

I didn't didn't say that the peshmerga were terroists. I tend to take the view that the word terrorist has been so politiciesed as to be unhelpful. I simply said that under certian defintions they could be considered terrorists. But then so could any armed group on the planet (with the posible exception of the Atholl Highlanders).



An independant homeland? Considering they're an ethnic group with about 30 million people who have lived there for several millennia I'd say not wanting to live as Turks or Iraqis is a valid desire.

It's validity is largely irrelivant. At the moment Kurdish independentce would hurt the US&UK, Turkey, and Iran in that order. Generaly it isn't a good idea to allow your citisens to do things that could cause serious problems for your biggest ally.

[Mycroft]

Mycroft...I only said that "maybe" the Kurds in the PKK wear big fancy hats. You are correct, I have no proof of the big fancy hats.


How about proof the Israelis are training terrorists? Do we need any proof of that or do we fling poo at them merely because they are Israelis?