HeadOn application

[nathan]

Oh, so it works through the nerves does it? Then why rub it on the forehead -- that's not an area I associate with dense nerve endings. Perhaps it would be better to lick it, shove it up your nose or rub it on one's privates (they're quite sensitive you know :).

I understand there's a very large number of nerves routed up the middle of one's back too.

[Anacoluthon64]

But isn't this preparation supposed to work according to homeopathic principles? If that is so, then surely one would expect it to work best where there are the fewest nerves...

'Luthon64

[Katana]

This is an amusing Wikipedia page about it. Head On is basically a placebo. I wonder how much money the company has made off this sham and the gullibility of its customers.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeadOn)

This is a story where a headache doctor comments on Head On. As expected, she is none too thrilled with the product. I thought that this was a pretty funny comment:
She added another slam, saying, "Some people say they get tingling, or a sense of coldness when you put it over your forehead. You'd be better off wrapping a towel around a bag of frozen vegetables, putting that on your forehead and then sensing tingling."
CBS Story (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/02/earlyshow/health/main1859588.shtml)

[Captain Trips]

My concern, though, is the nature of the objection "headaches occur in the brain, inside the skull." I always thought that most headaches were actually muscular in nature, just outside the skull. In which case, a transdermal treatment of a proven anti-inflamatory would work. (Aspercreme comes to mind, and a similar preparation of acetaminiphin or ibuprofin would work.)

Of course, the response "it works through the nerves" is still a wrong answer. Although I think it may have more effect than just placebo -- applying a cooling substance to the forehead has been used to treat headaches for a very long time, but a damp washcloth is probably as effective, if not more, than this stuff!

[alfaniner]

They have a new slant to their campaign on now. Testimonials! I caught one that said, "Sure, the commercial is annoying, but it works for me!!!"

It bugs me that CNN allows this to saturate their network, especially right before the hour's major news update.

[Pup]

My concern, though, is the nature of the objection "headaches occur in the brain, inside the skull." I always thought that most headaches were actually muscular in nature, just outside the skull. In which case, a transdermal treatment of a proven anti-inflamatory would work. (Aspercreme comes to mind, and a similar preparation of acetaminiphin or ibuprofin would work.)

Thank you! I just read the commentary and was wandering over here planning to comment on the same thing, right down to the cold washcloth example!

[ChrisH]

Here in the UK I have recently seen commercials for something called '4Head', a stick containing 'mentholatum' that is supposed to cure headaches when smeared on the forehead. Any relation, does anyone know? There don't appear to be any homeopathic claims for it, and no mention of bryony of any kind.

[Kimpatsu]

Here in the UK I have recently seen commercials for something called '4Head', a stick containing 'mentholatum' that is supposed to cure headaches when smeared on the forehead.
Now, if only there were a homeopathic treatment called "4play". That might garner some attention... :D

[Mercutio]

Yesterday's cartoon take on the issue... (http://www.grimmy.com/images/MGG_Archive/MGG_2006/MGG0928.gif)

[Orangutan]

They have a new slant to their campaign on now. Testimonials! I caught one that said, "Sure, the commercial is annoying, but it works for me!!!"

It bugs me that CNN allows this to saturate their network, especially right before the hour's major news update.

:O

I hope you are not trying to suggest that CNN, rather than being a a corporation that applies strict standards to thier news reporting so that important world events are reported without sentiment and sensationalism and applies the same standard to thier sponsors, are in fact, a corporation that will apply spin, rhetoric and on-the-fly editorial to any story to appeal to the lowest commen denomenator to increase thier veiwer base therfore increasing the money they can demand for thier advertising sections which they sell to any entity that can pay the bills.

I hope your not suggesting that. You wouldn't suggest that would you?
;)

[Foolmewunz]

:O

I hope you are not trying to suggest that CNN, rather than being a a corporation that applies strict standards to thier news reporting so that important world events are reported without sentiment and sensationalism and applies the same standard to thier sponsors, are in fact, a corporation that will apply spin, rhetoric and on-the-fly editorial to any story to appeal to the lowest commen denomenator to increase thier veiwer base therfore increasing the money they can demand for thier advertising sections which they sell to any entity that can pay the bills.

I hope your not suggesting that. You wouldn't suggest that would you?
;)

Surely you're not suggesting that the network that brings us Larry King is subjective in their coverage. The greatest sycophant in television history? The guy who makes Jay Leno look like a tough interviewer? :rolleyes:

Larry: Well thank you, Sylvia, we'll be right back with Satan, who has an interesting new book coming out. Stay with us.

[Mr. Skinny]

Yesterday's cartoon take on the issue... (http://www.grimmy.com/images/MGG_Archive/MGG_2006/MGG0928.gif)
Hehe, Mike Peters is from the Dayton Daily News. I have a poster board sized signed sketch my ex-wife bought from him at a charitable garage sale.

Maybe her $2 investment will be worth, I dunno, $5 in another 20 years. :)

[Piggy]

Confession:

When I first saw that commercial, I think my jaw literally dropped.

I thought, "That's f*****g brilliant! Gawd, I wish I'd thought of that. They're gonna make a mint."

I also thought, "Instant catch phrase!"

[hubbub2]

Speaking of Sylvia Browne...Large shovel! Apply directly to the forehead! Large shovel! Apply directly to the forehead! Large shovel! Apply directly to the forehead!

[BillyJoe]

My concern, though, is the nature of the objection "headaches occur in the brain, inside the skull." I always thought that most headaches were actually muscular in nature, just outside the skull.There are tension headaches which are indeed muscular in nature producing the sensation of a tight band outside the skull. There are also migraine headaches which are vascular in nature producing a painful throbbing sensation and involving arteries inside the skull

[JoeTheJuggler]

But isn't this preparation supposed to work according to homeopathic principles? If that is so, then surely one would expect it to work best where there are the fewest nerves...

That's what I was thinking. Remember, the "maximum strength" is actually a more dilute preparation. So you'd do better to apply it to the soles of your feet than directly where your head hurts.

Or better yet, you'd do best to remove yourself as far as possible from this product to derive maximum benefit.

[BillyJoe]

Or better yet, you'd do best to remove yourself as far as possible from this product to derive maximum benefit.:D

[Captain Trips]

There are tension headaches which are indeed muscular in nature producing the sensation of a tight band outside the skull. There are also migraine headaches which are vascular in nature producing a painful throbbing sensation and involving arteries inside the skull

This may be so (and I have experienced both) but is irrelevant to how HeadOn works. (Or is supposed to.) Applying to the forehead may work with muscular tension headaches, but pick up a package and read it. The active ingredient is at 0.05%, and is at that an ingredient that has no palliative effects! It would still be better to use a wet cloth! As to vascular headaches (migraines), well, I've found only one thing that works -- Imitrex, available by prescription. And applying anything to the forehead may be soothing emotionally, but does nothing to alleviate the pain.

So, regardless of where the headaches occur, the real question is, "does HeadOn really work?" And the answer has to be, "how can it?"

[BillyJoe]

My comment had nothing to do about whether or not HeadOn works.

[ChristineR]

Head On lists menthol and alcohol as some of its "inactive ingredients." These both give a cooling sensation and menthol also has an anesthestic effect. Menthol is the primary ingredient in BenGay pain relieving gel and quite a few skin rash creams.

Active Ingredients: Potassium Dichromate (6X H.P.U.S. 0.05% - Pain Reliever**), Sublimed Sulphur (12X H.P.U.S. 0.2% - Sleep Aid**), White Bryony (12X H.P.U.S. 0.04% - Pain Reliever**)

Inactive Ingredients: Diazolidinyl Urea, Ethyl Alcohol, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Menthol, Menthyl Lactate, Propylene Glycol, Sodium Stearate, Steareth 21, Tetrasodium EDTA, Triethanolamine, Water

The active ingredient is actually at 6X .05%, which means a .05% solution diluted by a factor of .000001. And it's a damn good thing, as Potassium Dichromate is just about the nastiest stuff out there....

[skeptifem]

My dad learned some 'sinus massage' techniques before, it consists of rubbing the face in certain areas and in certain directions(forehead being one of them, but it was more twards the brown line), it seems to be helpful for sinus headaches (the kind with a bunch of pressure). I dont know if sinus massage is proven to work for anything, in my experience it helps me and my boyfriend asks for it when he gets headaches like that from being sick. i was thinking it might work based on something like that but then there wouldnt really be a reason to buy it and it would only work for some headaches.

I find the commercials hilarious.

APPLY DIRECTLY TO THE FOREHEAD
APPLY DIRECTLY TO THE FOREHEAD
APPLY DIRECTLY TO THE FOREHEAD

ahahaha.

[Gravy]

The active ingredient is actually at 6X .05%, which means a .05% solution diluted by a factor of .000001. And it's a damn good thing, as Potassium Dichromate is just about the nastiest stuff out there....From the MSDS for Potassium Dichromate:

POISON! DANGER! MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED, INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. ...CANCER HAZARD. CAN CAUSE CANCER.

Health Rating: 4 - Extreme (Cancer Causing)
Contact Rating: 4 - Extreme (Life) Gotta love homeopathy.

[JoeTheJuggler]

So since it's a carcinogen, then the homeopathic remedy should be a cure for cancer rather than for headaches.

Since the homeopathy believers place a lot of emphasis in the "provings" (not to be confused with ANYTHING like proof or evidence of efficacy), does this mean someone actually took a dose of real potassium dichromate?

[Kimpatsu]

So since it's a carcinogen, then the homeopathic remedy should be a cure for cancer rather than for headaches.
Maybe trying to make sense of homeopathy gives you the headache.

[Learning Phase]

So since it's a carcinogen, then the homeopathic remedy should be a cure for cancer rather than for headaches.

Since the homeopathy believers place a lot of emphasis in the "provings" (not to be confused with ANYTHING like proof or evidence of efficacy), does this mean someone actually took a dose of real potassium dichromate?

I'm quite sure that it will be exactly as effective for cancer as it is for headaches.

For that matter, it'll be just as effective for broken bones, internal bleeding, stomachache, backache, and even for decapitations.

[ChristineR]

Potassium Dichromate (http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protection/safework/cis/products/icsc/dtasht/_icsc13/icsc1371.htm) causes severe burns, but the real fun stuff is in the long-term exposure:

Repeated or prolonged contact may cause skin sensitization. Repeated or prolonged inhalation exposure may cause asthma. The substance may have effects on the respiratory tract and kidneys, resulting in nasal septum perforation and kidney impairment. This substance is carcinogenic to humans. May cause heritable genetic damage to human germ cells. Animal tests show that this substance possibly causes toxicity to human reproduction or development.

I think that these symptoms would be a headache, and also a pain in the butt. So that must be why the homeopaths chose it. :rolleyes:

[Psi Baba]

In which case, a transdermal treatment of a proven anti-inflamatory would work. (Aspercreme comes to mind, and a similar preparation of acetaminiphin or ibuprofin would work.)
Consumer Reports panned Aspercreme many years ago stating basically that there was no evidence that aspirin applied topically had any analgesic effect.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I tried to do my own anecdotal study of a homeopathic remedy, but the results were confounded because someone said they'd pray for me.

Plus the planets are ALWAYS having an influence on me.

Shoot--I also made the mistake of drinking tap water, which is sort of an amalgam of lots of homeopathic preparations. (How can I ever get sick when I drink this stuff all the time?)

And darn it all, my symptoms keep regressing to the mean, but that's just my natural biorhythms. . . .

[joelblanchette]

Well, if HeadOn is homeopathic, then it should work best with the least amount of ingredients. Therefore, it should reach maximum effectiveness before it is manufactured. :D

Seriously, does it really list menthol and alcohol as inactive ingredients? I use Icy Hot cream for back pain occasionally. It lists menthol as a medicinal ingredient. Halls (and other) cough drops also list menthol as medicinal. I think it goes without saying that ethyl alcohol (which is the drinkable stuff) is an active ingredient. Aren't there laws about this kind of thing? This stuff isn't the same as those drinkable homeopathic products, which claim to have water and "vibrations". Vibrating water... Think about that for a second, and tell me it wouldn't be the most sought-after product in history. ;)

Anyway, where was I? Oh yeah, this HeadOn stuff actually has real medicinal ingredients which are labelled otherwise. The fact that this is apparently legal doesn't help me sleep at night...

[Phrost]

Speaking of Sylvia Browne...Large shovel! Apply directly to the forehead! Large shovel! Apply directly to the forehead! Large shovel! Apply directly to the forehead!

http://www.bullshido.net/images/elbowsig.gif

[Orangutan]

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/7826/ihaasashuvleyg5.jpg

[Anacoluthon64]

... and even for decapitations.Duh! That's why they called it "HeadOn." :D

'Luthon64

[Piggy]

Seriously, does it really list menthol and alcohol as inactive ingredients? I use Icy Hot cream for back pain occasionally. It lists menthol as a medicinal ingredient. Halls (and other) cough drops also list menthol as medicinal. I think it goes without saying that ethyl alcohol (which is the drinkable stuff) is an active ingredient. Aren't there laws about this kind of thing?

Oh yes, there are laws. Very specific laws regarding labeling and claims for active ingredients.

Menthol is approved for very specific label claims, depending on its concentration in the product. For instance, you can claim on the label that a menthol rub relieves pain from sore muscles and sprains, but not headache or sciatica.

I use Icy Hot to stop rashes caused by redbug bites after clearing my land (the menthol reduces inflammation and the petroleum base keeps the skin from drying out, which can spark the rash) but Icy Hot can't make any claims about this use, even though it works. A recent study found Tiger Balm (a menthol rub) effective against migraines, but they still can't put that claim on the label in the US because it's not FDA approved.

Ethyl alcohol is probably not an active ingredient. "Active ingredient" doesn't mean that it has some effect on you, that it's not merely inert, but rather that it has a specific curative effect for a particular condition.

[joelblanchette]

Oh yes, there are laws. Very specific laws regarding labeling and claims for active ingredients.

Menthol is approved for very specific label claims, depending on its concentration in the product. For instance, you can claim on the label that a menthol rub relieves pain from sore muscles and sprains, but not headache or sciatica.

I use Icy Hot to stop rashes caused by redbug bites after clearing my land (the menthol reduces inflammation and the petroleum base keeps the skin from drying out, which can spark the rash) but Icy Hot can't make any claims about this use, even though it works. A recent study found Tiger Balm (a menthol rub) effective against migraines, but they still can't put that claim on the label in the US because it's not FDA approved.

Ethyl alcohol is probably not an active ingredient. "Active ingredient" doesn't mean that it has some effect on you, that it's not merely inert, but rather that it has a specific curative effect for a particular condition.

I understand the logic of these laws, but if menthol has a medicinal effect that just happens to be different than what is claimed by the product it is in, it doesn't just stop having this effect. What if HeadOn contained concentrated sulfuric acid? It's does nothing to cure headaches, so could you call it an "inactive ingredient"?

[Kimpatsu]

I understand the logic of these laws, but if menthol has a medicinal effect that just happens to be different than what is claimed by the product it is in, it doesn't just stop having this effect. What if HeadOn contained concentrated sulfuric acid? It's does nothing to cure headaches, so could you call it an "inactive ingredient"?
At homeopathic dilutions, most certainly.

[jimlintott]

I'm quite sure that it will be exactly as effective for cancer as it is for headaches.

For that matter, it'll be just as effective for broken bones, internal bleeding, stomachache, backache, and even for decapitations.

It works for diarrhea but the application is a bugger.

[Piggy]

I understand the logic of these laws, but if menthol has a medicinal effect that just happens to be different than what is claimed by the product it is in, it doesn't just stop having this effect. What if HeadOn contained concentrated sulfuric acid? It's does nothing to cure headaches, so could you call it an "inactive ingredient"?
No, I don't think you do understand. Or else I'm not understanding you.

Active ingredients are approved for very specific claims within precise concentration ranges. The FDA even specifies what words can go on the label. If they say a particular concentration of menthol allows you to put on the label that your product "helps relieve pain associated with common backache", then you're not allowed to get creative and write, for instance, "stops back pain" instead.

If there is no FDA approval for particular claims related to an ingredient at the concentration it's in, then it's not an active ingredient, no matter what it may actually do.

As far as sulfuric acid goes, you're not going to be allowed to put that in a topical application, so it will not be any kind of ingredient, active or inactive.

[joelblanchette]

No, I don't think you do understand. Or else I'm not understanding you.

Active ingredients are approved for very specific claims within precise concentration ranges. The FDA even specifies what words can go on the label. If they say a particular concentration of menthol allows you to put on the label that your product "helps relieve pain associated with common backache", then you're not allowed to get creative and write, for instance, "stops back pain" instead.

If there is no FDA approval for particular claims related to an ingredient at the concentration it's in, then it's not an active ingredient, no matter what it may actually do.

As far as sulfuric acid goes, you're not going to be allowed to put that in a topical application, so it will not be any kind of ingredient, active or inactive.

Well, since there's no concentration provided for the "inactive ingredients" of HeadOn, I remain skeptical. Menthol is listed as an "active ingredient" in products with as little as 2% concentration (cold creams, mixed with camphor and eucalyptus oils). It is evidently safe, but my point is that it is listed as "inactive" here and "active" in other applications. I doubt its chemical properties vary based on the label... I was being facetious about the sulfuric acid. :D

By the way, here is the full listing of the "Inactive Ingredients" in the order they are listed, along with a brief description. Somebody mentioned that these would be in homeopathic quantities, but that only applies to the active ingredients. Assuming that HeadOn complies with FDA standards for active and inactive ingredients, it's ironic that the active ingredients do nothing whatsoever in the (non)quantities provided, but several of the inactive ingredients could have measurable effects, some of them negative. Also, please note that none of these products are uncommon in products such as cosmetics, despite the fact that some appear to be potential neurotoxins and carcinogens. There is a rather alarming lack of research and knowledge about some of these chemicals.

Diazolidinyl Urea:
Used as a formaldehyde-releasing preservative in cosmetics and barrier creams. It can cause mild allergic reactions, such as dermatitis.

Ethyl Alcohol:
The same alcohol found in beverages. Harmless when used externally, though it is flammable.

Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate:
Used as a broad spectrum biocide or preservative to inhibit the growth of microorganisms. It is used a poisoning agent in insecticide, and is considered highly toxic to humans. It is suspected of neurotoxicity, liver/gastrointestinal toxicity, and reproductive/developmental toxicity.

Menthol:
A mild local anesthetic and counterirritant that is found naturally in peppermint oil. It triggers cold sensors on the skin or mucous membranes, giving a cooling sensation without an actual drop in temperature.

Menthyl Lactate:
A flavoring agent that provides a light minty odor/taste. It is commonly found in skin cleansers and denture adhesives, and appears to be quite safe.

Propylene Glycol:
Numerous applications as a flavoring agent and moisturizer, it is also used (in high concentrations) as the main ingredient in automotive and aircraft engine coolant. It is recognized as safe for use in food and cosmetics.

Sodium Stearate:
Soap. Safe for external use.

Steareth-21:
Steareth is an emulsifier. The number indicates liquidity (4=liquid to 100=solid). It is assumed to be safe based on similar chemicals.

Tetrasodium EDTA:
A "penetration enhancer". It allows other chemicals to more easily penetrate the skin, increasing their concetration in the bloodstream. Not harmful on its own, but can provide an access route for toxins that typically would not penetrate the skin.

Triethanolamine:
A pH balancer, used to reduce the acidity of cosmetics. It is suspected to be a carcinogen (insufficient research to confirm for certain), and it also increases skin and lung sensitivity, which can cause allergic reactions and asthma attacks.

Water:
What would a homeopathic solution be without water? Answer: nothing at all.

[joelblanchette]

Oh, and as for the Active Ingredients, you'd better hope they're at homeopathic dilutions, because they are highly toxic. White Bryony is a poisonous plant. The symptoms of ingesting it:

Digestive disturbance with acute diarrhoea, profuse urination, profuse sweating, respiratory difficulty, inco-ordination, convulsions and occasionally cessation of defecation. Also animals are unwilling to move.

It is only used therapeutically in homeopathic remedies.

As for Potassium Dichromate, here is the text from the MSDS label, which is in all-caps on the label:

POISON! DANGER! MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED, INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. STRONG OXIDIZER. CONTACT WITH OTHER MATERIAL MAY CAUSE A FIRE. CORROSIVE. CAUSES SEVERE BURNS TO EVERY AREA OF CONTACT. AFFECTS THE RESPIRATORY SYSTEM, LIVER, KIDNEYS, EYES, SKIN AND BLOOD. MAY CAUSE ALLERGIC REACTION. CANCER HAZARD. CAN CAUSE CANCER.

Skin contact is considered life-threatening, breathing it can cause pulmonary edema, it is corrosive enough to perforate bone, and getting it in your eyes will cause blindness. If you manage to survive any of these horrors, you are at a very high risk of developing cancer. This is a chemical that is used in industrial applications as a powerful oxidizer. It has no medicinal use whatsoever, and if homeopathy worked as promised (less concentration=more effect), it would melt a hole through your forehead instantly. So what is this nightmarish stuff supposed to be doing in HeadOn?

[Piggy]

Thanks, jb... seems it was me misunderstanding your posts.

Head On has already been spanked for claims on their Web site, which they had to remove. They might also get into hot water over their "active ingredients" if they are below effective concentrations. On the other hand, FDA tends to spend their limited resources on products which may do harm, rather than those which do nothing, especially if used to treat relatively non-threatening conditions such as headache.

[Piggy]

Menthol is listed as an "active ingredient" in products with as little as 2% concentration (cold creams, mixed with camphor and eucalyptus oils). It is evidently safe, but my point is that it is listed as "inactive" here and "active" in other applications. I doubt its chemical properties vary based on the label... I was being facetious about the sulfuric acid. :D

Actually, Head On probably has it correct here. At the concentrations they're claiming, it's not an active ingredient. In other words, at those concentrations, there are no FDA approved claims that can be made about it. (I actually have the FDA regulations regarding menthol labeling on my computer at work, as it happens, and can send you the info if you like.)

"Active" and "inactive" are not properties assigned to substances per se, regardless of use. It's not as though some substances are inherently "active" and others are inherently "inactive", in the sense we're using the terms here.

I knew you were being facetious about the sulfuric acid, but I wanted to make a point in my reply anyway.

[joelblanchette]

Thanks, jb... seems it was me misunderstanding your posts.

Head On has already been spanked for claims on their Web site, which they had to remove. They might also get into hot water over their "active ingredients" if they are below effective concentrations. On the other hand, FDA tends to spend their limited resources on products which may do harm, rather than those which do nothing, especially if used to treat relatively non-threatening conditions such as headache.

Obviously, or they would have gotten around to banning every homeopathic product in existence. I happened to be at a pharmacy yesterday to buy pain medication (children's acetaminophen) and noticed the HeadOn box, and for the active ingredients (Potassium Bichromate and White Bryony Root, slightly different than the American packaging, I think, as I am in Canada) it lists their medicinal functions as "pain relief". I have found nothing on the Internet that supports this. Potassium Dichromate is a highly toxic carcinogen that is also highly corrosive. It has no business being in or on the human body. White Bryony Root is a powerful irritant, and can cause blistering on the skin. It has been used medicinally in the past, but is currently considered toxic. Far from being pain-killers, applying these products to your skin would be excrutiatingly painful. Fortunately, there is almost no chance of ever finding a single molecule of either of these ingredients in HeadOn. :D

[JoeTheJuggler]

Potassium Dichromate is a highly toxic carcinogen that is also highly corrosive. It has no business being in or on the human body. White Bryony Root is a powerful irritant, and can cause blistering on the skin. It has been used medicinally in the past, but is currently considered toxic. Far from being pain-killers, applying these products to your skin would be excrutiatingly painful. Fortunately, there is almost no chance of ever finding a single molecule of either of these ingredients in HeadOn. :D

That's kind of what homeopathy is about. They have their "law of similars" which means that a substance which causes a symptom in healthy people will somehow cure dieseases with those same symptoms.

It is simply a form of sympathetic magic dressed up as medicine.

[Anacoluthon64]

... will somehow cure dieseases with those same symptoms.

It is simply a form of sympathetic magic dressed up as medicine.Prophetic too.

'Luthon64

[joelblanchette]

That's kind of what homeopathy is about. They have their "law of similars" which means that a substance which causes a symptom in healthy people will somehow cure dieseases with those same symptoms.

It is simply a form of sympathetic magic dressed up as medicine.

How anybody could believe anything so patently stupid and absurd is beyond me. It amazes me that so many people would go for such a counter-intuitive notion. Most dumb woowoo notions are successful because they seem intuitive on the surface... Oh well, these are the same bunch that eat freshly-squeezed shark testicle soup, jab magnetized needles into their eyeball meridians, and rearrange their furniture to optimize the vibrating chi coming out of their ying-yangs, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the stupendous depth and breadth of their idiocy. :D

[BillyJoe]

How anybody could believe anything so patently stupid and absurd is beyond me. It amazes me that so many people would go for such a counter-intuitive notion. Most dumb woowoo notions are successful because they seem intuitive on the surface... Oh well, these are the same bunch that eat freshly-squeezed shark testicle soup, jab magnetized needles into their eyeball meridians, and rearrange their furniture to optimize the vibrating chi coming out of their ying-yangs, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the stupendous depth and breadth of their idiocy. :DYes, it is a puzzle.

Some people are just not interested in science, statistics, logic, deduction and dissection. So they are dumb in this sense. But they can be quite clever in other respects. Some medicos use homoeopathic treatments, for example. To get through medical school you can't really be dumb through and through. I think perhaps they're the sort of who enjoy being entertained by a "magic" show but have absolutely no interest in knowing how it was done. It's the experience that matters to them, not the dissection. In a sense they prefer to believe it really is magic that made the elephant disappear.

I think there have always been people like this and there always will be. Possibly some of it is to do with how their brains are wired. Perhaps there are influences from early experiences. They possibly enjoyed faerie tales in childhood before they discovered they don't exist. Yet they still hanker for the emotional high and attach it to something else. Sometimes even life in general becomes a sort of a faerie tale. And it so much fun. Much better fun than boring science and statistics.

Of course, there are charlatans also.

[Kopji]

I am not normally a violent person, but if they worked in a scene of someone shooting the person during this commercial I'd have no objections.

HeadOn, apply dire... BLAM

[HawkeyeMD]

Yes, it is a puzzle.

Some medicos use homoeopathic treatments, for example. To get through medical school you can't really be dumb through and through. I think perhaps they're the sort of who enjoy being entertained by a "magic" show but have absolutely no interest in knowing how it was done. It's the experience that matters to them, not the dissection. In a sense they prefer to believe it really is magic that made the elephant disappear.

I am in medical school, and they stuck in a couple of lectures on alternative medicine as part of our first and second years.

I think it backfired badly, because there was no real attempt to go into anything in enough depth to really understand it, and also because the lecturer was reather archly dismissive of some subjects while startlingly (to me) accepting of others. This led to an unbelievable amount of carping on the part of my classmates, but to my surprise most of it was "I can't believe he spent twenty minutes talking about CureX--that's such crap. And then he acted like CureY doesn't even work!" What CureX and CureY were in any given conversation varied widely and didn't have much to do with what the lecturer actually said, IMHO. It was basically ideas that they'd entered school with and already 'knew' were true, and that was that.

There was even a kind of ad hoc committee forming to demand a full hour for some "real" alternative medicine practitioners to come in and speak to us (I recall aruveyda and homeopathy being touted), but fortunately that petered out before my skull exploded. (If they had, I planned to make myself very unpopular by asking some very difficult questions.)

Getting into med school requires a certain amount of scientific knowledge. it does not require that you actually learn to think scientifically. There's a difference. ;)

The curriculum spends an inordinate amount of time on what is called 'evidence-based medicine', and to their credit they try very hard to explain the whole concept of how to read and assess a paper, but there is just not a lot of what I would call 'critical thinking' being taught. Which is probably inevitable, given the demands of med school, but I think the attempt to educate on this particular subject is doomed without it.

Sorry, that was longer than I meant it to be. :o

[DigitalHoser]

I just pulled up a full MSDS Sheet and HOLY (insert favorite second word here)!

http://www.vwrsp.com/msds/10/EM-/EM-PX1445-5.pdf

Check that bad boy out. Not only is it a level 4 health hazard, its also a very dangerous Oxidizer and is a no-go on firefighting.

Even better, USDOT requires it to be reported on all paperwork if the quantity exceeds 10 US pounds.

Isn't this Exciting?!



(the Link does work. Its PDF.)

[billydkid]

Oh, so it works through the nerves does it? Then why rub it on the forehead -- that's not an area I associate with dense nerve endings. Perhaps it would be better to lick it, shove it up your nose or rub it on one's privates (they're quite sensitive you know :).

I understand there's a very large number of nerves routed up the middle of one's back too.

This is the idea. As a sufferer of severe migraine on a regular basis for many your I have learned that one way to sometimes distract yourself from the headache pain is by use of a counter irritant. I would use Tiger Balm on my forhead and around my eyes. When the pain was severe enough I have been known to actually rub it in my eyes - blinds you and is excrusiating, but sometimes that is better than a headache that makes you think about way to end yourself. The brain tends to get confused with mixed pain signals. I assumed this was the idea behind Head On. It has menthol or camphor or stuff like that in it - counter irritants. It could plausibly be effective for mild headaches.

[JoeTheJuggler]

How anybody could believe anything so patently stupid and absurd is beyond me. It amazes me that so many people would go for such a counter-intuitive notion.

It does seem to me that quite a few people who buy homeopathics are merely ignorant. A five minute explanation of the law of similars, provings, and the law of infinitesimals usually has them as outraged as any other reasonable person.

What bugs me most is that these things appear in Walgreens right beside real OTC drugs and packaged very similarly. Worst of all, they're often in line of sight of an actual, real pharmacist. To most reasonable people, this spells out "medicine".

[Tarot_Is_A_Card_Game!]

If I remember correctly this spot was voted as one of the worst commericals. I suspect that's why they now have spokespeople admitting the ad is annoying but the product is "amazing"
It appears that CNN has jumped the shark.
In case nobody has yet mentioned it: Nancy Grace! ugh:eek:

[Tarot_Is_A_Card_Game!]

Well, they never actually CLAIM it cures headaches. You're just supposed to appy it to your forehead just for fun!!!!:p It's like the Hoola Hoop or Slinky of the 21st century, yeah! that's the ticket!!!

[Piggy]

I would use Tiger Balm on my forhead and around my eyes. <snip> I assumed this was the idea behind Head On. It has menthol or camphor or stuff like that in it - counter irritants. It could plausibly be effective for mild headaches.

Btw, Tiger Balm has been shown to be effective for migraines v. a placebo in one Australian study. They still can't claim it on the label in the US. And I don't know of any follow-up studies as yet. But there you go.

[Piggy]

What bugs me most is that these things appear in Walgreens right beside real OTC drugs and packaged very similarly.

Ten points for correctly spelling "Walgreens" (no apostrophe).

It's no coincidence, of course, that the packaging mimics established OTC products. That's the first thing you want to do when you're marketing snake oil in the "trade" market.

[Piggy]

Well, they never actually CLAIM it cures headaches.

They did on their Web site, but were forced to remove those claims.