Hypnosis - needle through skin

[Johnnyc282]

Hi,

My girlfriend is seeing a hypnotist to assist her giving up smoking.

During the first session the hypnotist put a needle clean through the skin on the back of her hand without pain to prove she was 'under'. Now this sounds like a trick to me but I can't find any reference to it on the internet aside from a brief discussion of a similar trick performed by the mentalist Derren Brown.

Is there anything I can use to convince my girlfriend that this was more to with biology (loose, unsensitive skin, perhaps?) than being in a trance.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Jeff Corey]

Assuming that you mean the hypnotist put the needle through her own skin, not your girlfriend's, that could be a variation of the needle through the arm trick, available at most magic shops.

[scotth]

It would be much more impressive to put the needle through the front of the hand.

Get a fine, sharp needle and put it through the back of your hand. It doesn't hurt much. In that hypno situation with a bunch of stimulation to the surrounding area by rubbing and other friction, plus some verbal distraction, it should hardly be noticable.

[HappyCat]

What kind of legitimate doctor would poke a needle through someone's skin just to prove something? That's one of the silliest things I have ever heard.

[ponderingturtle]

It would be much more impressive to put the needle through the front of the hand.

Get a fine, sharp needle and put it through the back of your hand. It doesn't hurt much. In that hypno situation with a bunch of stimulation to the surrounding area by rubbing and other friction, plus some verbal distraction, it should hardly be noticable.

Also you are being suggested that it doesn't hurt and this will effect your perception of the events. Sticking needles through portions of your body is an old side show trick.

[Orangutan]

What kind of legitimate doctor would poke a needle through someone's skin just to prove something? That's one of the silliest things I have ever heard.

Agreed. This sounds like showboating. Very strange.

[Windom]

What kind of legitimate doctor would poke a needle through someone's skin just to prove something? That's one of the silliest things I have ever heard.

Disagree. In surgery, it is common to check if patient still feels pain (after using anti-pain drugs or however_they_are_called_in_english before operation). Ussualy doctor touches appropriate place of the body with somehing sharp too see if you feel it and how do you feel it.

So I think it's the same here. I guess it's not a big deal to use kind of hypnosis to suggest patient that she doesn't feel anything. Needle through skin is not so painful. Needles under the nails would be different story, guess no hypnosis would help here :D

[Johnnyc282]

Thanks for the replies. Just to clarify: the needle was put through the back of my girlfriend's hand. I'll try to get some better details but she is reluctant to discuss it with me now because I was so incredulous when she told me the first time!

[scotth]

Disagree. In surgery, it is common to check if patient still feels pain (after using anti-pain drugs or however_they_are_called_in_english before operation). Ussualy doctor touches appropriate place of the body with somehing sharp too see if you feel it and how do you feel it.

So I think it's the same here. I guess it's not a big deal to use kind of hypnosis to suggest patient that she doesn't feel anything. Needle through skin is not so painful. Needles under the nails would be different story, guess no hypnosis would help here :D

But this isn't surgery. This is a stop smoking hypno treatment.

There is no anesthesia.

He is doing nothing more than using a surprising trick to make the patient think that the hypno has more effect on them than it really has.

[Josh Redstone]

Hypnotic treatment for stuff like this usually doesn't work unless the patient can quit smoking on their own. The thing about hypnotism is, people assume it's the hypnotist doing everything. In actuality, the subject is the one doing everything, that is why there are varying degrees of hypnotism, and why some people cannot be hypnotized, like myself. So if you can quit smoking via hypnosis, you can probably quit on your own anyway and you should save your money for something else, like nicotine patches :)

However I agree, a trick like this is unneccessary and reckless. If I remember correctly, this phenomenon is limited to a very small percentage of the population, and it is not learnable. Assuming this was not a magic trick, this subject could have experienced a great amount of pain for no good reason at all.

[Windom]

He is doing nothing more than using a surprising trick to make the patient think that the hypno has more effect on them than it really has.
Hypnosis itself is a set of tricks more or less. If tricks helps quiting smoking - why not use them?

He is doing nothing more than using a surprising trick to make the patient think that the hypno has more effect on them than it really has.

Yes but if a person can do something like this only and only when she thinks hypnoticists is doing for her, isn't that better than keep smoking? Psychologists don't do anything for you either, regardless we pay money for them. It's almost the same here.

I just try to look to positve sides ;)

[ponderingturtle]

Hypnotic treatment for stuff like this usually doesn't work unless the patient can quit smoking on their own. The thing about hypnotism is, people assume it's the hypnotist doing everything. In actuality, the subject is the one doing everything, that is why there are varying degrees of hypnotism, and why some people cannot be hypnotized, like myself. So if you can quit smoking via hypnosis, you can probably quit on your own anyway and you should save your money for something else, like nicotine patches :)

However I agree, a trick like this is unneccessary and reckless. If I remember correctly, this phenomenon is limited to a very small percentage of the population, and it is not learnable. Assuming this was not a magic trick, this subject could have experienced a great amount of pain for no good reason at all.

Not really that sort of thing mostly doesn't hurt that much, it is the block people have against hurting themselves that is overcome not any real pain effect.

[scotth]

Hypnosis itself is a set of tricks more or less. If tricks helps quiting smoking - why not use them?



Yes but if a person can do something like this only and only when she thinks hypnoticists is doing for her, isn't that better than keep smoking? Psychologists don't do anything for you either, regardless we pay money for them. It's almost the same here.

I just try to look to positve sides ;)

Hey, you bolded the "If", not me, but I'm glad you did. The answer to that 'If' should definitely be known, before charging people money for it.

The bottom line is that the guy is using a trick of everyday physiology to impress a client of the efficacy of hypnotherapy. The only reason that I can see that he would use the needle trick as a demonstration would be because he 'needs' to. That is, because the hypnotherapy isn't too impressive without the 'tricks'. That should tell us something.

[casebro]

I give my self 4 insulin shots a day. Most don't cause any sensation, especially with the newer micro fine needles. With these skinny little needles, unless you hit a nerve, there is no sensation. I suspect the hypnotist used one of those hair-fine acupunture things, smaller than what I use- mine have to be big enough to have a hole up the middle. The acupunture things are so fine they need to be supported by a tube when they are poked through the skin. So, maybe not even any woo at all, just a fine needle.

[ponderingturtle]

I give my self 4 insulin shots a day. Most don't cause any sensation, especially with the newer micro fine needles. With these skinny little needles, unless you hit a nerve, there is no sensation. I suspect the hypnotist used one of those hair-fine acupunture things, smaller than what I use- mine have to be big enough to have a hole up the middle. The acupunture things are so fine they need to be supported by a tube when they are poked through the skin. So, maybe not even any woo at all, just a fine needle.

Also think about how some injuries don't hurt until you notice them. Suggestion can strongly effect perception enough to entirely account for this, and it is something anyone who is hypnotized would likely say.

[Windom]

Hey, you bolded the "If", not me, but I'm glad you did. The answer to that 'If' should definitely be known, before charging people money for it.

Ofcourse, I bolded because it's crucial here :) OK I agree so far.


The bottom line is that the guy is using a trick of everyday physiology to impress a client of the efficacy of hypnotherapy. The only reason that I can see that he would use the needle trick as a demonstration would be because he 'needs' to. That is, because the hypnotherapy isn't too impressive without the 'tricks'. That should tell us something.


OK it tells us that hypnotherapy is nothing more but a trickery. That it isn't any more effective than placebo & stuff. But then again: if without it patient isn't able to achieve even as much as placebo, maybe it's worth the money you pay? An extreme example: If I have not enough will to gave up smoking but some guru sells me a crystal from Atlantis charged by energy of Jesus and I believe it helps and I get confidence and I don't smoke any more - I get what I have paid for. Fair trade :)

Then again, bolded if is crucial here.

[Naikii]

When a psychologist or doctor uses hypnosis to achieve a positive goal such as quitting smoking the effect the treatment has relies partly on the clients belief that they actually were hypnotised. Part of this belief lies in hypnotic phenonema, such as sticking a needle through the skin, which give the client the impression 'well i couldnt do that normally so i MUST be hypnotised'. The psychologist did not have to use a needle instead could have performed any number of hypnotic phenonema but generally the more shocking the more effective.

ANYONE can quit smoking on their own, it is not an impossible feat maybe it is more difficult for some people than others but that in no way makes it impossible. Hypnosis can provide the extra belief the client may need in themselves to follow through with what can be a very difficult process.

People trained in the proper use of hypnosis in medicine or psychology do not rely on trickery to perform their work, hypnosis is a legitimate form of therapy.

[blutoski]

Disagree. In surgery, it is common to check if patient still feels pain (after using anti-pain drugs or however_they_are_called_in_english before operation). Ussualy doctor touches appropriate place of the body with somehing sharp too see if you feel it and how do you feel it.

So I think it's the same here. I guess it's not a big deal to use kind of hypnosis to suggest patient that she doesn't feel anything. Needle through skin is not so painful. Needles under the nails would be different story, guess no hypnosis would help here :D

It's not the same. MDs are forbidden to break the skin when doing anaesthetic or reflex testing. There is a risk of infection. The instruments designed for this are intentionally very blunt.

[blutoski]

Thanks for the replies. Just to clarify: the needle was put through the back of my girlfriend's hand. I'll try to get some better details but she is reluctant to discuss it with me now because I was so incredulous when she told me the first time!

I'll wager it was through a keratinized epidermal layer. As pointed out above, it's a carny trick.

What would be more interesting would be to see it go through the innervated or pervused layers.

[Mercutio]

I hypnotized a psych class this week. I think I could have done the needle trick with 4 of them, maybe as many as 6, out of nearly 30. It would be a good measure of how deeply they were hypnotized; a rough check of whether some other manipulation would work (say, a post-hypnotic suggestion). Such a check would be a good reason for such a strange procedure...on the other hand, there is no reason to think (one way or the other) that the hypnotist did or did not think of this as a mere diagnostic technique.

[Cuddles]

Why would anyone need tricks to do this? I don't know a single person that didn't find out they could stick a needle through the top layers of skin without feeling it while still in primary school (that's under 11). I have to admit I'm absolutely amazed that anyone could not know this.

Edit : And to scotth's point about the front of the hand, it is easiest to do on your fingertips, the only place that is at all tricky is the center of the palm since it is curved awkwardly.

[Lothian]

Hypnosis itself is a set of tricks more or less. If tricks helps quiting smoking - why not use them?

Homeopathy, Acupuncture, Colour therapy, Reiki, doctor prescribed placebos etc. are sets of tricks more or less. If tricks helps quiting smoking - why not use them?

[simonmaal]

Any reputable therapist would use rapport, empathy and positive regard for their client's well-being to develop therapist-client trust. The fact that this particular therapist resorted to trickery makes me feel that he or she is a person with a neurotic need for acceptance.

However, while we are on the subject of pain, I would argue that it is at least partially subjective. Now, it could be argued that stubbing a toe against a rock produces a painful response that needs no interpretation. However, the placebo effect draws this assumption into question: pain can be reduced or alleviated simply by the belief that some substance or activity will do so (e.g. Wall, 1993). Equally, conditions such as fibro-myalgia can cause pain despite the presence of any obvious physical cause (Alnigenis, 2006), and conditions such as tension headaches are aggravated by emotional distress. In other words, the conscious experience of pain seems not to be completely objective; instead, it is part of a reciprocal relationship with emotion and context that is open to interpretation.

Perhaps it was simply the placebo effect at work.

I cannot yet post links to my sources (sorry, I haven't posted enough messages yet).

[tube]

For those who want to learn more, the relevant term to research is "human pincushion", an old and venerable sideshow act. In short, lacerations tend to bleed while puncture wounds do not. Skin is strongly elastic and usually closes up after removal of the "pin". I was one of the founding members of the Jim Rose sideshow, and I watched Tim Cridland do this stunt almost nightly. He rarely bled.

As far as pain is concerned, I think casebro is correct; sharp and fine pins cause less pain.