The Paranormal Paradox

[Barkhorn1x]

I like the sound of that ---> "The Paranormal Paradox". What is it you ask??

Quite simple;

"Why do these manifestations of the paranormal - which, if true - are fantastic events in and of themselves - result in so little gained in terms of wisdom or results obtained???"

Examples;
a. The Angel’s thread - an angel appears to a woman in her kitchen and the result? Well, there is no result as the angel "appeared" and then "disappeared". So what says I!
b. Virgin Mary sightings - Does the VM tell us how to cure cancer or what the next winning Powerball number is? No, all she says is "love each other" or "pray to my son Jesus". Thanks, VM real value in what you teach!
c. Channeling - do these ancient sages give us detailed anthropological information about the distant past? Nope, rather they offer advice on "relationships".
d. Remote Viewing - so where is Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, etc., etc., etc.?
e. Psychics - forget about that poor woman's dead husband who’s first name begins with an "A.", ("doing fine in the afterlife, thank you for asking."). How about making contact with people FDR, Lincoln, Caesar, etc. and giving us some specific information?

Really, if any of this stuff is real why has it had less impact on our everyday lives than the recent proliferation of cell phones???

Thoughts please,
Barkhorn.

[Dancing David]

"There is knowl;edge that is not fit for mortals to hear..."

Yeah you think the spirits of the dead would have better information too

"There is a woman who is sad, ... she wears underwear..."
"oh, thats me!"
"The spirits says she has a girl's name"

Always vauge, never "you stole money from work, bought crack and had sex with the girl who mows the lawn"

[evildave]

Well, since doctors will adopt just about any new treatment that works, why is it they all don't adopt "Therapeutic Touch" (http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9804/01/therapeutic.touch/)?

Well, because modern medicine is based on that wacky old scientific method, and when things don't work repeatably, they are discarded.

In the linked example, the doctors in 80 hospitals 'tried' it. And then an 11 year old girl came up with a test that pretty much conclusively demonstrated it was bogus for her 4th grade science fair. She got a blue ribbon.

[SteveW]

There have been some mediums who claim to be in contact with famous dead people. The one that comes to mind is the woman years back who "channeled" Beethoven, Schubert, etc with the help of Liszt who was her spirit guide. She wrote the music while the dead composers told her what to write. The sad part was, after all these years of composing, not one of them had a new idea and most of what she turned out was reworkings of exisiting pieces. You would think with all the time on their hands they would have come up with something new.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

A corollary to the Paranormal Paradox is the Complacency Paradox (better name gladly accepted). You'd think that if someone had proof of life after death or alien abductions or psi powers, they'd be running all over hell and gone hollering about it, writing articles, making TV appearances, demonstrating it, and so forth. But nope, ho hum, just proof of the most extraordinary discovery in all of human history. La de da.

~~ Paul

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
But nope, ho hum, just proof of the most extraordinary discovery in all of human history.
~~ Paul
Seriously, I think many of them don't realize how significant it is. They think that paranormal powers are ordinary, and that lots of people have them and use them daily. Proof of this is that other people seem to always have more money and success than they do. How else could they have gotten all that, except through paranormal powers?

[ehbowen]

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x

a. The Angel's thread - an angel appears to a woman in her kitchen and the result? Well, there is no result as the angel "appeared" and then "disappeared". So what says I!


I know that you say, "So What?" I say that the story intrigues me and motivates me to seek out the Source of the phenomenon.

[gentlehorse]

Originally posted by ehbowen


I know that you say, "So What?" I say that the story intrigues me and motivates me to seek out the Source of the phenomenon.

Some possibilities off the top of my head:


sleep deprivation
chemical imbalance
hysteria
wishful thinking
waking dream (don't know the technical name for this, if there is one)
just about anything that would induce an hallucination--

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Complacency Paradox (better name gladly accepted)

Complacency Conundrum.

All proceeds resulting from the use of this new name should be sent directly to my accountant.

[evildave]

Originally posted by gentlehorse


Some possibilities off the top of my head:


sleep deprivation
chemical imbalance
hysteria
wishful thinking
waking dream (don't know the technical name for this, if there is one)
just about anything that would induce an hallucination--


Waking dream: reverie?


Food poisoning.
Brain injury / tumor
Supply of blood to brain or section of brain interrupted (stroke).

[Yahweh]

I dont understand the thought processes that say "Yeah, theres a god, and all that science is bunch of hooey spat out you. Scientists are ressurected fallen angels that were created by god to test your faith and devotion."... WHAT THE HELL IS THAT!!

"Why do these manifestations of the paranormal - which, if true - are fantastic events in and of themselves - result in so little gained in terms of wisdom or results obtained???"

Don't forget about the wisdom that science has gained us...Most scientists are employeed in militaries, and militaries have our biggest budget.

So wise..


-Who

[gentlehorse]

Originally posted by Whodini
"Why do these manifestations of the paranormal - which, if true - are fantastic events in and of themselves - result in so little gained in terms of wisdom or results obtained???"

Don't forget about the wisdom that science has gained us...Most scientists are employeed in militaries, and militaries have our biggest budget.

So wise..


-Who

I hear ya, man. Buy let's not overlook some of the good things science has brought us while we've been busy figuring out better ways to kill each other.


cures for all manner of disease
medicines to improve the quality of life of those who have diseases for which we've yet to find a cure
refrigerated air
speedy access to knowledge
microwavable dinners :)


I don't mean to belittle your point, but science has a track record of providing humanity with many wonderful, tangible, useful things. If we don't manage to blow ourselves to smithereens, science will, in all likelyhood, continue along this path. After all, it's not up to science to bestow upon us the wisdom necessary to make this world a better place.

cures for all manner of disease
medicines to improve the quality of life of those who have diseases for which we've yet to find a cure
refrigerated air
speedy access to knowledge
microwavable dinners :)


I aknowledge all of those points bigtime. But, if we truly cared about those, we'd devote more of our budget and resources into those, and not into military endeavors which obtain the exact opposite of life. (but, we'll make excuses to brainwash ourselves to say otherwise...)

Hey, I watched the Cosmos series.

:)

-Who

[gentlehorse]

Originally posted by Whodini

I aknowledge all of those points bigtime. But, if we truly cared about those, we'd devote more of our budget and resources into those, and not into military endeavors which obtain the exact opposite of life. (but, we'll make excuses to brainwash ourselves to say otherwise...)

I agree, to an extent. We needn't brainwash ourselves to see that the world can be a very dangerous place and that, as unfortunate as it may be, we need to take steps to protect ourselves as individuals and as a nation. Maybe I think this way because I've been brainwashed.

At any rate, getting back to being at least close to the topic of this thread, do you feel that these "manifestations of the paranormal" can or will in any way lead us to a means by which we'll be able to disarm and devote our resources to making the world a better place for all? In other words, do you think it likely that wisdom can be achieved by paranormal means? I don't think you're suggesting as much, but we can hardly blame the questionable level of wisdom in the world on the men and women who devote their lives to scientific inquiry. Science is not the root of the problem, IMO.

Hey, I watched the Cosmos series.

:)

-Who

Me too! :)

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by Whodini
"Why do these manifestations of the paranormal - which, if true - are fantastic events in and of themselves - result in so little gained in terms of wisdom or results obtained???"

Don't forget about the wisdom that science has gained us...Most scientists are employeed in militaries, and militaries have our biggest budget.

So wise..


-Who

STRAWMAN!!!!!! :p :p



Barkhorn.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Whodini
..........Most scientists are employeed in militaries, and militaries have our biggest budget.

So wise..


-Who


Interesting.. From whence comes this bit of knowledge?

[aggle_rithm]

Originally posted by Diogenes



Interesting.. From whence comes this bit of knowledge?

L. Ron Hubbard...?

[juryjone]

Originally posted by Barkhorn1x
"Why do these manifestations of the paranormal - which, if true - are fantastic events in and of themselves - result in so little gained in terms of wisdom or results obtained???"

Thoughts please,
Barkhorn.

I actually started a thread along these lines a while back -

Micro results in a macro world (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14882)

I got bogged down in nitppicking and statistics since I pointed to the PEAR random-number generator experiments as my "so what" example. Angels in the kitchen is a much better (less controversial, IMO) example.

[thaiboxerken]

It's amazing how stupid people apparently get after death. If John Edward talked to Albert Einstein, I guess it would go something like this:

Al talking through JE. "My name starts with a Y.. I mean J.. no, an A...Al, yea, my name is Al.... Albert, yea, what she said." "I had a sister..no, a brother... maybe a mother.. a relative.."

Member of audience says "Albert Einstein, Theory of Relativity"

Al through JE: "Yes, that's it... but he should phrase it in the form of a question."

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Whodini
"STRAWMAN!!!!!!"
Well, some are, some aren't.
d. Remote Viewing - so where is Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, etc., etc., etc.?
This one I don't think could be considered a strawman because specific information is precisely what remote viewing claims to be capable of, yet rarely accomplishes.

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by Whodini
"STRAWMAN!!!!!!"

What?

People are saying that paranomal basically doesn't exist because if it did, it would result in wisdom gained. To me, that is a strawman.

Oh, and don't forget about the wisdom that science has gained us...In almost every countrt, most scientists are employeed in militaries, and the militaries have our biggest budget.

So wise..

-Who

Huh??

You are SO fond of pointing out others alleged logical fallacies - yet you fail to notice your own.

1. Where is your proof that "in almost every country most scientists are employed by the military"? Given the wide range of scientific disciplines that have NO military value I would have to say that your assertion is absurd.

2. "...and the militaries have our biggest budget". Really?? According to this US government site (http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2001/guide02.html#Spending) defense spending totaled just 16% of the Federal budget in 2001. Now I'm sure that % is higher today but it is dwarfed in comparison to "social programs" like Social Security, Medicare, Medicade and other means test spending (48 % in 2001).

3. You also assume that military spending on "scientific" applications" have no utility in the civilian sector. Hmmm, microchip technology and navigational systems are just 2 areas that contradict your argument.

Basically, your argument is nothing more than a "paging Dr. Feelgood, the military is evil because they have guns" strawman.

If you want to dish it out you should learn how to take it.

Barkhorn.

[xouper]

Barkhorn1x: Channeling - do these ancient sages give us detailed anthropological information about the distant past? Nope, rather they offer advice on "relationships".To be fair, that's not entirely true. There are many books containing detailed channeled information about ancient human societies such as in Atlantis and Lemuria, as well as ancestral civilizations on other worlds. Of course, verifying this information is quite another matter. For example, on page 160 of Kryon Book Two: Don't Think Like a Human (http://www.kryon.com/k_12.html), is an illustration of an Atlantian Temple of Rejuvenation as channeled by Lee Carroll.

[calladus]

Originally posted by xouper
Of course, verifying this information is quite another matter.

Hear Hear!

I'm sure it's quite easy to give all the details of any fictional civilization -

But there's always some small difficulty in giving the details about any hidden word, number, or item in a carefully controlled experiment.

Uh - huh.

You want to impress me? Call me on my cell phone and leave me the winning lotto number on my voice mail.

'Seeing' my cell number will be part of the exercise.

[LeFevre]

All those evil scientists working for the military. . . Science is only about atomics and how to better slaughter millions with only a push of a button. ALL of our progress is only because of the great method of the religious and how it is used to better ourselves.

If it weren't for them dang scientists, we could spend all our cash on things besides weapons.


Wait?!?! You mean the people who say where the cash goes ain't evil scientists?!? Yet they spend ALL that cash on the Evil Scientists?!?!?!?

[thaiboxerken]

It's obvious why the woo-woos demonize science and reason, it furthers their cause. Isn't this a tactic most cults use? They want people to stop thinking for themselves, reject reason and accept their nonsense. Heck, some even go so far as to try and debunk reality itself.

Asking why paranormal beliefs produce no valuable information is a reasonable question, this is why they will evade it.

[xouper]

thaiboxerken: It's obvious why the woo-woos demonize science and reason, it furthers their cause. Isn't this a tactic most cults use? They want people to stop thinking for themselves, reject reason and accept their nonsense. Heck, some even go so far as to try and debunk reality itself.What's even funnier are the woowoos who deride science in one sentence and then use science in a later sentence to validate some nonsense notion of theirs. For example, some will ridicule the scientific method of so-called "Western Medicine", but then cite the scientific experiements of Benveniste as proof of Homeopathy.

Asking why paranormal beliefs produce no valuable information is a reasonable question, this is why they will evade it.Planet X is a good example of the kind of information that could be useful (in the sense of finding a previously unknown celestial body), except there don't seem to be any such scientific discoveries on record as having resulted from a paranormal source.

Lee Carroll, for example, has claimed to have channelled new scientific information, but upon closer investigation, all of his alleged "predictions" either turn out to be "post-dictions" or were later proven false. He even channeled that the universe uses base twelve instead of our currently favored base ten, and that in base twelve, Pi is a rational number. When I tried to correct this obvious error on his message board, I was met with all manner of mathematical nonsense from people who were obviously quite ignorant about math. To most of them, Lee Carroll's channeled information was infallible and it must be the mathematicians who are mistaken. That's when I first started to suspect that you can't use logic to refute a position that wasn't arrived at logically.

[synaesthesia]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
A corollary to the Paranormal Paradox is the Complacency Paradox (better name gladly accepted). You'd think that if someone had proof of life after death or alien abductions or psi powers, they'd be running all over hell and gone hollering about it, writing articles, making TV appearances, demonstrating it, and so forth. But nope, ho hum, just proof of the most extraordinary discovery in all of human history. La de da.

~~ Paul

Or they're like "Well it's true for ME, why can't you just leave it at that?"

[Cinorjer]

What always gets me is how easily impressed True Believers are. They claim to worship the One God, Creator of the Universe, and the "sign" this Diety sends is something like a few drops of oil out of a statue's eyes? How about making the statue walk down main street while singing Gospel hymns? Hey, it's God, right? Infinite power, able to stop the sun in its track? If He's gonna send us a sign, then why be so stingy with the God juice?

According to the Bible, when God sends someone a "sign", He tends to slam you between the eyes and makes sure you know who's ringing your bell. Nothing subtle about Jahovah. So what happened since then?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Cinorjer
So what happened since then?
Layoffs?
Budget cutbacks?
Work smarter, not harder?

:D

[Ladewig]

Oh, and don't forget about the wisdom that science has gained us...In almost every countrt, most scientists are employeed in militaries, and the militaries have our biggest budget.

Even if these figures are true, that does not mean that science has increased the number or duration of wars. An argument can be made that science reduces war. Scientists did not start WW II, but they sure had a hand in ending it: atomic bombs, radar, aerial photography, code breaking, metalurgy and a vareity of other scientific applications all helped to reduce the number of allied casulties.

Scientists helped politicians understand that nuclear winter follows nuclear war. Scientists provide the technology that permits long range verification of ballistic missle treaties. Scientists provide the technology to construct anti-NBC suits for soldiers.

[aggle_rithm]

Originally posted by Ladewig


Even if these figures are true, that does not mean that science has increased the number or duration of wars. An argument can be made that science reduces war. Scientists did not start WW II, but they sure had a hand in ending it: atomic bombs, radar, aerial photography, code breaking, metalurgy and a vareity of other scientific applications all helped to reduce the number of allied casulties.

Scientists helped politicians understand that nuclear winter follows nuclear war. Scientists provide the technology that permits long range verification of ballistic missle treaties. Scientists provide the technology to construct anti-NBC suits for soldiers.

The number of people killed in wars worldwide was on a steady increase for hundreds of years. In 1945, the year the bomb was first dropped, the number leveled off at about a million people a year, where it stands to this day. Some people attribute this to the threat of nuclear annihilation.

Heard that on a documentary a while back -- don't remember the name of it, and haven't checked the veracity.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by aggle_rithm
The number of people killed in wars worldwide was on a steady increase for hundreds of years.
How can people charge science with war deaths after Iraq?

The people who had all the scientists did much, much less dying than the people that didn't.

Sure, science kills the enemy in war, but it saves so many of our own! How, exactly, is that a bad thing? Unless you think killing the enemy is a bad thing, but that's really got nothing to do with science, does it?

[thaiboxerken]

Science doesn't kill, it's just a method or tool to be used for gaining knowledge. What people do with that knowledge is up to them.

[Loki]

Paul,

A corollary to the Paranormal Paradox is the Complacency Paradox (better name gladly accepted). ... But nope, ho hum, just proof of the most extraordinary discovery in all of human history.
This is what drives me nuts about John Edward. If he's genuine, he basically holds the key to overturn most of the world's major religions - he could set humanity straight on one of the biggest issues (survival after death) in our history. Once we've established it's validity, we can start to 'explore' life after death, and discover what it means for criminals, morality, illness, child deaths, etc. JE's name will be written into the history books of humanity as a major player.

So, given what's at stake, how does JE respond? He charges a couple of hundred bucks an hour, week after week, to tell individuals that their dead relatives are "okay". La de da indeed.

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Science doesn't kill, it's just a method or tool to be used for gaining knowledge. What people do with that knowledge is up to them.

What about science specifically developed for wartime use?

Also, by your reasoning, then paranormal stuff isn't harmful. Afterall, it is just a tool to be used for stuff. What people do with that knowledge is up to them.

-Who

Barkhorn, besides SS, defense spending is the largest. Think about it... what if that was spent on education? (and what if every country would do that?)

-Who

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Whodini,

Also, by your reasoning, then paranormal stuff isn't harmful. Afterall, it is just a tool to be used for stuff. What people do with that knowledge is up to them.

Paranormal stuff isn't harmful. Believing in paranormal stuff is potentially very harmful, because believing something is true without a logical reason to think it is true, is not rational. The specific ways in which this is harmful to both the believer, and those around him/her, has been discussed repeatedly on this board.

Look at it this way, if you believe stuff which you have a good logical reason to believe is true (reliable evidence), and then act on those beliefs to forward your values, then you have the highest likelihood of making choices consistent with your values. If you believe stuff without reliable evidence, and then act on those beliefs to forward your values, you have a very high probability of inadvertently acting against your values. Of course, if your values are what I consider "evil", then you are likely to do "bad" stuff either way. The danger of irrational beliefs is that they cause good people to do bad things, and often times not even realize it.

Dr. Stupid

[Darat]

Originally posted by Whodini
"STRAWMAN!!!!!!"

What?

People are saying that paranomal basically doesn't exist because if it did, it would result in wisdom gained. To me, that is a strawman.

Oh, and don't forget about the wisdom that science has gained us...In almost every countrt, most scientists are employeed in militaries, and the militaries have our biggest budget.

So wise..

-Who

Is it true that most scientists are employed by the military? Just thinking about the number of scientists in universities, pharmaceutical & chemical companies, medical research etc I am astonished if it is true that most (50+ %) scientists are employed by the military.

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by Whodini
Barkhorn, besides SS, defense spending is the largest. Think about it... what if that was spent on education? (and what if every country would do that?)

-Who

You didn't post that originally - you posted some Dr. Feelgood blather.

Yea wouldn't it be nice if teacher's had all the $$ they needed and the Pentagon had to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber?

Oh wait that was a bumper sticker and is just more shallow posturing.

And so what?? Are you stating that the US can't afford or doesn't need a strong military. Defense is a legitimate function of the federal government. SS is certainly not mentioned in the constitution.

When the world becomes a less dangerous place then maybe your point will be valid.

Barhorn.


Barkhorn.

[thaiboxerken]

What about science specifically developed for wartime use?

The scientific method is not developed differently for different uses. Maybe you are talking about technology developed for war, let me know if this is what you actually mean.


Also, by your reasoning, then paranormal stuff isn't harmful. Afterall, it is just a tool to be used for stuff. What people do with that knowledge is up to them.
-Who

Irrational beliefs lead to irrational actions, the belief in the paranormal is dangerous in this respect. When people believe in things without using critical thought and they go only on faith, they can easily end up crashing planes into buildings. Paranormal belief is not a tool. Science is.

[synaesthesia]

Originally posted by Whodini
Barkhorn, besides SS, defense spending is the largest. Think about it... what if that was spent on education? (and what if every country would do that?)

-Who

Game theoretically speaking, the value for each defense dollar would spiral out of control and you'd quickly have a full momentum arms race.

I misspoke.

I said something like most scientists are employeed by the military.

I should have said that the largest percentage of military employees are scientists.

-Who

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Whodini
I misspoke.

I said something like most scientists are employeed by the military.

I should have said that the largest percentage of military employees are scientists.

-Who

I don't have any statistics to back me up but if I were a betting man, I would wager that the greatest number of military employees are soldiers. That seems inifinitely more likely

Barkhorn1x,

Who is Dr. Feelgood?

"When the world becomes a less dangerous place then maybe your point will be valid."

Do you think that adding to our and other countries adding to their pile of guns, tanks, ammo, bombs, weapons, devices of unpleasant purposes, makes people safer?

-Who

[Barkhorn1x]

Originally posted by Whodini
Barkhorn1x,

Who is Dr. Feelgood?

Dr. Feelgood is a generic term (as in "paging Dr. Feelgood") that is used to comment on statements/actions that do not truely address an issue but instead offer "solutions" w/ little or no real content. Examples;
1. Inner city kids can't read or write = the Dr. Feelgood solution is to pass 'em anyway (social promotion) so as not to damage their supposedly fragile "self esteem". End result, the 5th grader who couldn't read or write is now the HS grad who can't read or write.
2. National defense is expensive = the Dr. Feelgood response is "cut the defense budget to the bone because war is bad and people w/ guns hurt other people". End result, rogue states are encouraged to make mischief (USSR and Iran in 1979) and terrorists are enboldened (Al Queda during the Clinton administration).


Do you think that adding to our and other countries adding to their pile of guns, tanks, ammo, bombs, weapons, devices of unpleasant purposes, makes people safer?

To some extent yes - for not having the means to defend ourselves would surely be our (and the world's) undoing. The military have legitimate functions to perform such as;
1. US Navy keeping sea lanes free from pirates and rogue government interference.
2. The US Army in Korea (as a deterent force) has almost CERTAINLY prevented another invasion of S. Korea by their oh so benevolent brothers to the North and allowed S. Korea to prosper and become a modern state w/ a vibrant economy.

Barkhorn.