Colonel Donn de Grand Pre

[JamesB]

Now that the JREF ninjas have helped expose one military fraud, this guy has been bugging me for a while.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/who-is-colonel-donn-de-grand-pre.html

Can anyone do an FOIA on him, or at least explain to me how to? He is popping up in conspiracy circles everywhere the "scholars", the "veterans", Alex Jones, even the American Free Press' little holocaust denial fest.

[gtc]

Try the POW Network (http://pownetwork.org/).

They can help you track down (and interpret) his service records and they just love to hear about people falsely claiming (http://pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies.htm) military service.

They were very helpful to an Australian I know who was being harrassed on another internet forum by someone exagerating their US service record.

[MG1962]

I do hope you nail the guy. I dont care what armed force or what branch it is. To claim military service when you have not - is right down there with the low of the lows

[CptColumbo]

What has he said that makes you doubt his authenticity? The sites often do a bad job of reporting and often will use each other as a source, rather than contact the original source themselves. It then becomes a game of telephone, where the story is slightly altered everytime it is copied. The specific branch of service may have been mis-reported by one site and the others carried it on. However, if he had been serving since WWII, he could have been in both the Army and Air Force. I am not defending their source, by any means, and you should suspect anything coming from the sources you name and are right to check his credentials.

[MG1962]

Well For mine - I have a couple of problems. He says he has been releasing books since 1975 - try and find them, there is just nothing about this guy before 2002

He has not actually been published - If you look carefully he is self published. Its called vanity press in the industry, generally not a good sign.

I listened to a little of an impromtu phone interview on Vets for 911 - It doesn't proves anything, but he doesn't sound 80 years old. Also in the interview he laid claim to being a full bird (what ever that is) colonel in the army. He didn't mention other services, so I think your theory of Chinese whispers might be right

[T.A.M.]

3 entries in amazon.com for him, none before 2000

TAM

[T.A.M.]

Here is a listing for an airport he owns. I noticed the "de" is gone from his name, so it is possible it is a different guy, but unlikely.

http://www.airports.com/pages/Airports/Contact_Information/more277.html

TAM

[kevin]

this book appears to be from 1979.

http://isbndb.com/d/book/confessions_of_an_arms_peddler.html

Odd that a christian book publisher would publish it. are they a vanity press?

[Foolmewunz]

This is from the Alex Jones interview available at:http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904degrand.html


DGP: Well, what I was trying to get through here, John has done a beautiful job of laying it all out here on 911. What I want to carry away is that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs himself has agreed, there were no hijackers. There were no cell phone calls. Everybody aboard that aircraft, pilots and crew, were unconscious within 8 to 18 minutes after take-off. And you can take it from there. I've got it covered in books 2 and 3, what actually happened.

AJ: So, they're knocked out and then the remote control takes place and the rest is history.

DGP: Yeah, there was remote control and .. yes.

AJ: By the way, people don't believe they have that. Kennedy's oldest son, JFK's big brother, died in a chase plane with remote controlling in a bomber loaded with explosives as a drone in 1944.

DGP: That is correct.

Wouldn't the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff have something to say about this guy prattling on? The interview has no date on it (or I'm too dense to figure out where it's posted), so I don't know who the Chariman was at that time. But the page copyright reads 2002-2003, so I take it it was in 2003.

He also seems to claim he was hired by Robt. MacNamara but in the review of his book released in 2003 they cite that he was the chief Middle East arms negotiator under Ford and Carter. Long career, eh?

Surely there'd be something out there on him. He makes no claim to being deep cover, so whether he was with State or another department, there should still be records.

The guy also claims he KNOWS THE PILOT THAT SHOT DOWN 93!

Where do they find these people, and why hasn't he had a firm public thrashing? The Jones interview is a must! There's so much ranting in there, you could fill a month of research.

ETA: I also found the book from '79 and the airport address is the same as his current (owned) publishing company or very nearby, so that's likely him.

[Hutch]

Also in the interview he laid claim to being a full bird (what ever that is) colonel in the army.

Just FYI, "full bird" is a full Colonel, not a Lieutenant Colonel, who is also normally addressed as "Colonel". The bird refers to the Eagle on the shoulders as designation of the rank.

Did a quick Google. Col Grand Pre notes he served with the 236th Combat engineers in the Burma/China Theatre in WWII and a quick look seems to bear out that unit was assigned to that theatre. He also mentions serving in the 27th Infantry in Korea and a webpage http://www.kolchak.org/ bears that out, albeint not mentioning the Colonels' name (of course, he was probably a lower rank then).

There is a Dickinson State University in North Dakota, where he claims a Political Science Degree from 1956. http://www.dickinsonstate.com/

He also claims to have been appointed Director, Ground Weapons Systems, International Logistics Negotiation, in 1967. That, I will try to look into more deeply as that is my balliwick.

In sum, some areas to check out, but in the initial history check, he has his story straight, at least in the details.

[Foolmewunz]

Yahooing is better than Googling.

I think I found you an ally..... unfortunately, he's anonymous, but he gives a good lead.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904degrand.html

I also located an AFP newsletter that said the Col. Donn couldn't attend a symposium on Labor Day, due to ill health, so he's obviously known at AFP, that bastion of enlightened journalism. :D

[JamesB]

What has he said that makes you doubt his authenticity? The sites often do a bad job of reporting and often will use each other as a source, rather than contact the original source themselves. It then becomes a game of telephone, where the story is slightly altered everytime it is copied. The specific branch of service may have been mis-reported by one site and the others carried it on. However, if he had been serving since WWII, he could have been in both the Army and Air Force. I am not defending their source, by any means, and you should suspect anything coming from the sources you name and are right to check his credentials.

Well I don't know for sure, but I am highly suspect. He claims to have done everything, and know everybody, but he doesn't pop up anywhere. He claims to be good friends with General Shelton, but when Popular Mechanics contacted him he had never heard of Grand Pre. He claims to know the pilots who "shot down United 93" but that is all made up, and he gets all the facts wrong. It doesn't make sense that you could have this elaborate of a military career without showing up somewhere, except in the last couple of years trying to promote your conspiracy theories. Especially considering how odd his name is.

BTW I looked up his name on military.com and it shows someone by that name as an E-7, not proof by any means, but more oddities.

[JamesB]

this book appears to be from 1979.

http://isbndb.com/d/book/confessions_of_an_arms_peddler.html

Odd that a christian book publisher would publish it. are they a vanity press?

They have his name wrong, weird.

'Grand Pre, Donn R'

[JamesB]

Yahooing is better than Googling.

I think I found you an ally..... unfortunately, he's anonymous, but he gives a good lead.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904degrand.html

I also located an AFP newsletter that said the Col. Donn couldn't attend a symposium on Labor Day, due to ill health, so he's obviously known at AFP, that bastion of enlightened journalism. :D

Oh now this is just bizarre. Where do they get these people?

AJ: Okay, can you break that down for us?

DGP: Well, I break it down in the time frame that we had satellite images of rounds or missiles being fired from the Negev desert toward Baghdad. That's 600 miles distance. And six or eight of the rounds came in. That was February of 1991.

AJ: Are you saying that the Israelis used miniaturized nuclear weapons?

DGP: Yes sir. That's what I'm saying, in plain English.

AJ: Well I remember, I know they bragged that they had a lot of really sophisticated miniaturized nuclear weapons, of the little mini-frogs, or whatever. But and I know there were these giant mushroom clouds on the news. They'd say, "Oh, that's not a nuke. That's just a weapons depot." But you are saying that it is common knowledge at the Pentagon that Israel was firing nuclear weapons at Iraq?

DGP: That is correct.

Why didn't they just use supernanothermite?

[CurtC]

This is from the Popular Mechanics article:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=8
F-16 Pilot
CLAIM: In February 2004, retired Army Col. Donn de Grand-Pre said on "The Alex Jones Show," a radio talk show broadcast on 42 stations: "It [Flight 93] was taken out by the North Dakota Air Guard. I know the pilot who fired those two missiles to take down 93." LetsRoll911.org, citing de Grand-Pre, identifies the pilot: "Major Rick Gibney fired two Sidewinder missiles at the aircraft and destroyed it in midflight at precisely 0958."

FACT: Saying he was reluctant to fuel debate by responding to unsubstantiated charges, Gibney (a lieutenant colonel, not a major) declined to comment. According to Air National Guard spokesman Master Sgt. David Somdahl, Gibney flew an F-16 that morning--but nowhere near Shanksville. He took off from Fargo, N.D., and flew to Bozeman, Mont., to pick up Ed Jacoby Jr., the director of the New York State Emergency Management Office. Gibney then flew Jacoby from Montana to Albany, N.Y., so Jacoby could coordinate 17,000 rescue workers engaged in the state's response to 9/11. Jacoby confirms the day's events. "I was in Big Sky for an emergency managers meeting. Someone called to say an F-16 was landing in Bozeman. From there we flew to Albany." Jacoby is outraged by the claim that Gibney shot down Flight 93. "I summarily dismiss that because Lt. Col. Gibney was with me at that time. It disgusts me to see this because the public is being misled. More than anything else it disgusts me because it brings up fears. It brings up hopes--it brings up all sorts of feelings, not only to the victims' families but to all the individuals throughout the country, and the world for that matter. I get angry at the misinformation out there."

[JamesB]

This is from the Popular Mechanics article:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=8

He is in the PM book too.

page 79:

Sondahl says he is familiar with Grand-Pre's allegations. "I know he claims he knows our pilots, which is false. I know he claims he knows our adjustant general, which is false," he says. "I know everything he has claimed about Lieutenent Colonel Rick Gibney and the 119th Fighter Wing is complete crap."

General Shelton, who is now retired, also refutes Frand-Pre's claims. "I don't know this individual," Shelton tells Popular Mechanics. "The name doesn't ring a bell and I certainly never saw a report that he rendered alleging there was some type of conspiracy or that National Guard pilot shot down [Flight 93]." Shelton continues" I have a reputation for being candid, and I had seen a paper like that or heard a story like that, I would tell you, and I would tell you what I did with it. I never heard anything that was anything close to what he was saying. From my perspective, all that is hogwash."

[Hellbound]

Now that the JREF ninjas have helped expose one military fraud, this guy has been bugging me for a while.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/06/who-is-colonel-donn-de-grand-pre.html

Can anyone do an FOIA on him, or at least explain to me how to? He is popping up in conspiracy circles everywhere the "scholars", the "veterans", Alex Jones, even the American Free Press' little holocaust denial fest.

JamesB:

THis site:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/08/13/MN11636.DTL

gives good info on how to request military records under FOIA. IN fact, they even link to an FOIA generator that will write up the request for you (you just have to print/copy it and send it to the relevent government org...it provides contact info).

[T.A.M.]

Doesnt this guy smell an aweful lot like an older version of our friend Chavez?

TAM

[Sword_Of_Truth]

He took off from Fargo, N.D., and flew to Bozeman, Mont., to pick up Ed Jacoby Jr., the director of the New York State Emergency Management Office. Gibney then flew Jacoby from Montana to Albany, N.Y., so Jacoby could coordinate 17,000 rescue workers engaged in the state's response to 9/11. Jacoby confirms the day's events. "I was in Big Sky for an emergency managers meeting. Someone called to say an F-16 was landing in Bozeman. From there we flew to Albany."


It was the worst day of the 21st century, I have noything but respect and sympathy for those who lost family and loved ones that day.

That being said, is anyone else reading that thinking a personal chauffer driven F-16 would be cool as all hell? ;)


EDIT: This was my 666th post, the NWO obviously made me do it. :p

[Bell]

Grand Pre -> Grand Prix ??
Somehow when I read his name, it felt funny allready.

the 119th fighter wing sounds funny to... 119th -> 9/11 ??
Thet are based in North Dakota
http://www.happyhooligans.com/
so what would they be doing in Pennsylvania?

[Bell]

http://www.whtt.org/popupdetails.php?popup=1&prodId=17

BARBARIANS INSIDE THE GATES
Colonel Donn de Grand Pre'
Colonel Donn de Grand Pre, while serving as arms negotiator in the Pentagon, received a wake-up call from President Gerald Ford soon after the second attempt on his life. Ford said, 'Something has gone terribly wrong in our country when a president can no longer walk among the people.' This jarred Donn from his pursuit of striving to become the world's leading arms peddler. Disillusioned with our government's course, both at home and abroad, Donn exited Washington, DC to begin an intensive research program which slowly revealed an enemy already inside the gates, totally dedicated to the destruction of our sovereignty as a nation-state and the enslavement or extermination of all who might block their despotic plans for World domination. His thesis is since WWII, and the unconstitutionally waged wars that for whatever reason, caused a net loss of political power and have diverted our attention away from the true enemy within, contriving an enemy outside our borders. He defines the enemy and tactics in detail and what we must do to defeat the enemy and restore our republic under the Constitution. -Hardcover [ printer seconds ] c. 2000 425 pages

[Donal]

They may have been responsible for the MidWest States. There weren't that many squadrons designated to protecting the Continental US.

[JamesB]

Doesnt this guy smell an aweful lot like an older version of our friend Chavez?

TAM

Which is why I thought to bring the subject up now. He claims to know everyone, and nobody knows him. I don't know he is a fake, but I would like to find out one way or another.

He claims to have been in the OSS during WWII, but there is no record of this.

http://www.osssociety.org/

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=45174

[T.A.M.]

Well perhaps we should keep a list of who he says he knows and a seperate list of those on the first list who deny knowing him or deny his claims. There were a couple mentioned above already.

TAM

[Bell]

It's funny in a sad way, when a shady CT military officer claims he knows who shot down UA93, the deniers hang to every word. But when witnesses say they saw AA77 crash, they are obvious lying and shills. I still haven't figured out how the deniers seperate fraud from fact. Well, not by logical means, that is.

[MG1962]

I did a little sniffing on the publisher

Chosen Books are a divison of of Baker Publishing

Their mission statement

Ever since the 1971 publication of The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom, Chosen Books has been publishing powerful books that help millions to live the Spirit-filled life.

They are subsequently owned by Baker Publishing who list Cambridge Universty Press as part of their portfolio in North America.

He has also released two other fiction books

The boys from Bent Willow: A saga of World War II in 2003

Look homeward cowboy: A saga of World War II in 2002


For the life of me - I cant find any review, discussion or extract of these books anywhere on the net. They must exist because they have been assigned ISBN numbers

[CurtC]

Grand Pre -> Grand Prix ??
Somehow when I read his name, it felt funny allready.
Grand Pre National Historic Park (http://www.valleyweb.com/grandpre/), Nova Scotia

But I agree that Donn de Grand Pre is probably a pseudonym.

[Bell]

Grand Pre National Historic Park (http://www.valleyweb.com/grandpre/), Nova Scotia

But I agree that Donn de Grand Pre is probably a pseudonym.

Ah, Great Meadow. But it still sounds funny :)

It's difficult to find anything unbiased on him, when you Google his name, all you get is PrisonPlanet, AFP, and hellalot 9/11 deniers sites.

[CptColumbo]

If it's an anagram, here are the possible choices. Excluding Colonel.

AD REDDEN GNP NOR
AD REDDEN GNP RON
AD DEN END GNP ORR
AD DEN REND PRONG
AD DEN REND GNP OR
AD DEN RED GNP NOR
AD DEN RED GNP RON
AD END REND PRONG
AD END REND GNP OR
AD END RED GNP NOR
AD END RED GNP RON
AD REND RED GNP NO
AD REND RED GNP ON
ADD RENDER GNP NO
ADD RENDER GNP ON
ADD DREG PENN NOR
ADD DREG PENN RON
ADD DEN ERR GNP NO
ADD DEN ERR GNP ON
ADD END ERR GNP NO
ADD END ERR GNP ON
DAD RENDER GNP NO
DAD RENDER GNP ON
DAD DREG PENN NOR
DAD DREG PENN RON
DAD DEN ERR GNP NO
DAD DEN ERR GNP ON
DAD END ERR GNP NO
DAD END ERR GNP ON
ADDED ERR GNP NON
ADDEND ERR GNP NO
ADDEND ERR GNP ON
DEAD REND GNP NOR
DEAD REND GNP RON
DADE REND GNP NOR
DADE REND GNP RON
DREAD DEN GNP NOR
DREAD DEN GNP RON
DREAD END GNP NOR
DREAD END GNP RON
DREAD REND GNP NO
DREAD REND GNP ON
DREAD RED GNP NON
GARDEN REND POND
GANDER REND POND
DANGER REND POND
GARDNER DOD PENN
GARDNER ODD PENN
GARDNER DEN POND
GARDNER END POND
GARDNER PEND DON
GARDNER PEND NOD
DANG DOD PENN ERR
DANG ODD PENN ERR
DANG RENDER POND
DANG DEN PEND ORR
DANG DEN REND PRO
DANG DEN POND ERR
DANG END PEND ORR
DANG END REND PRO
DANG END POND ERR
DANG PONDER REND
DANG PEND REND OR
DANG PEND RED NOR
DANG PEND RED RON
DANG PEND DON ERR
DANG PEND NOD ERR
DANG REND DON PER
DANG REND NOD PER
DANG REND ROD PEN
DANG RED ROD PENN
DRAGON PEND REND
GRAND DEPEND NOR
GRAND DEPEND RON
GRAND DEN END PRO
GRAND DEN PONDER
GRAND DEN PEND OR
GRAND DEN DON PER
GRAND DEN NOD PER
GRAND DEN ROD PEN
GRAND END PONDER
GRAND END PEND OR
GRAND END DON PER
GRAND END NOD PER
GRAND END ROD PEN
GRAND DRONE PEND
GRAND PEND RED NO
GRAND PEND RED ON
GRAND REND DO PEN
GRAND RED DON PEN
GRAND RED NOD PEN
GRAND RED DO PENN
DRAG DEN PEND NOR
DRAG DEN PEND RON
DRAG DEN ROD PENN
DRAG END PEND NOR
DRAG END PEND RON
DRAG END ROD PENN
DRAG DONNER PEND
DRAG PEND REND NO
DRAG PEND REND ON
DRAG PEND RED NON
DRAG REND DON PEN
DRAG REND NOD PEN
DRAG REND DO PENN
DRAG RED DON PENN
DRAG RED NOD PENN
GRAD DEN PEND NOR
GRAD DEN PEND RON
GRAD DEN ROD PENN
GRAD END PEND NOR
GRAD END PEND RON
GRAD END ROD PENN
GRAD DONNER PEND
GRAD PEND REND NO
GRAD PEND REND ON
GRAD PEND RED NON
GRAD REND DON PEN
GRAD REND NOD PEN
GRAD REND DO PENN
GRAD RED DON PENN
GRAD RED NOD PENN
DAN REDDEN PRONG
DAN REDDEN GNP OR
DAN DREG PEND NOR
DAN DREG PEND RON
DAN DREG ROD PENN
DAN DEN RED PRONG
DAN DEN RED GNP OR
DAN END RED PRONG
DAN END RED GNP OR
DAN REND RED PONG
DAN REND POND ERG
DAN REND DROP ENG
DAN REND PROD ENG
AND REDDEN PRONG
AND REDDEN GNP OR
AND DREG PEND NOR
AND DREG PEND RON
AND DREG ROD PENN
AND DEN RED PRONG
AND DEN RED GNP OR
AND END RED PRONG
AND END RED GNP OR
AND REND RED PONG
AND REND POND ERG
AND REND DROP ENG
AND REND PROD ENG
RAND DEED GNP NOR
RAND DEED GNP RON
RAND REDDEN PONG
RAND DOD ERG PENN
RAND ODD ERG PENN
RAND GENDER POND
RAND DREG PEND NO
RAND DREG PEND ON
RAND DREG DON PEN
RAND DREG NOD PEN
RAND DREG DO PENN
RAND DEN REND GPO
RAND DEN REND GOP
RAND DEN RED PONG
RAND DEN POND ERG
RAND DEN DROP ENG
RAND DEN PROD ENG
RAND END REND GPO
RAND END REND GOP
RAND END RED PONG
RAND END POND ERG
RAND END DROP ENG
RAND END PROD ENG
RAND PEND REND GO
RAND PEND DON ERG
RAND PEND NOD ERG
RAND PEND ROD ENG
RAND REND GOD PEN
RAND REND DOG PEN
RAND REND DON PEG
RAND REND NOD PEG
RAND REND POD ENG
RAND RED GOD PENN
RAND RED DOG PENN
RAND RED POND ENG
DARN DEED GNP NOR
DARN DEED GNP RON
DARN REDDEN PONG
DARN DOD ERG PENN
DARN ODD ERG PENN
DARN GENDER POND
DARN DREG PEND NO
DARN DREG PEND ON
DARN DREG DON PEN
DARN DREG NOD PEN
DARN DREG DO PENN
DARN DEN REND GPO
DARN DEN REND GOP
DARN DEN RED PONG
DARN DEN POND ERG
DARN DEN DROP ENG
DARN DEN PROD ENG
DARN END REND GPO
DARN END REND GOP
DARN END RED PONG
DARN END POND ERG
DARN END DROP ENG
DARN END PROD ENG
DARN PEND REND GO
DARN PEND DON ERG
DARN PEND NOD ERG
DARN PEND ROD ENG
DARN REND GOD PEN
DARN REND DOG PEN
DARN REND DON PEG
DARN REND NOD PEG
DARN REND POD ENG
DARN RED GOD PENN
DARN RED DOG PENN
DARN RED POND ENG
PAD DREG REND NON
GARNER DODD PENN
NAG DODD PENN ERR
NAG DEN REND DROP
NAG DEN REND PROD
NAG END REND DROP
NAG END REND PROD
NAG PEND REND ROD
NAG REND RED POND
PANG DEN REND ROD
PANG END REND ROD
PANG REND RED DON
PANG REND RED NOD
RANG REDDEN POND
RANG DOD REND PEN
RANG DOD RED PENN
RANG ODD REND PEN
RANG ODD RED PENN
RANG DEN END DROP
RANG DEN END PROD
RANG DEN PEND ROD
RANG DEN REND POD
RANG DEN RED POND
RANG END PEND ROD
RANG END REND POD
RANG END RED POND
RANG PEND REND DO
RANG PEND RED DON
RANG PEND RED NOD
RAG DOD REND PENN
RAG ODD REND PENN
RAG DEN REND POND
RAG END REND POND
RAG PEND REND DON
RAG PEND REND NOD
AN DREG REND POND
NAN DREG DEN DROP
NAN DREG DEN PROD
NAN DREG END DROP
NAN DREG END PROD
NAN DREG PEND ROD
NAN DREG REND POD
NAN DREG RED POND
ANN DREG DEN DROP
ANN DREG DEN PROD
ANN DREG END DROP
ANN DREG END PROD
ANN DREG PEND ROD
ANN DREG REND POD
ANN DREG RED POND
PAN DREG REND DON
PAN DREG REND NOD
NAP DREG REND DON
NAP DREG REND NOD
RAN DODD ERG PENN
RAN DOD DREG PENN
RAN ODD DREG PENN
RAN DREG DEN POND
RAN DREG END POND
RAN DREG PEND DON
RAN DREG PEND NOD
RAN PEND REND GOD
RAN PEND REND DOG

[LashL]

The following info comes up from doing a reverse directory search (using the number he published during the AJ interview).

Grand Pre Donn
1681 Wilderness Rd
Culpeper, VA 22735-3623
(540) 547-2996


A small but odd thing, to me anyway, is that he went out of his way to correct his surname in the AJ interview (by pointing out that Grand-Pre is hyphenated) and yet all of his book covers are missing the hyphen.

[Foolmewunz]

He also seems to have added the "de" somewhere along the line.
Since his earlier books were Donn Grand Pre, and his airport (and now the reverse search) yield Donn Grand Pre, I guess we can assume that's the name. But whether it's a nom de plume or alias has yet to be seen.

The various book reviews and blurbs seem to have him all over the political landscape. He says he came back to gov't service to work for Bob MacNamara, presumably under Johnson. Then somewhere later he is said to have worked for Ford and Carter, yet one blurb has him quitting when he saw the light in a conversation with Gerald Ford. What happened during the Nixon years? And why is he introduced as working for Carter when he seems to have quit before Carter came in?

Mind you, the reviews are from notoriously unreliable sources. They may have extracted comments from other whack-job sites, because the AJ interview was picked up almost everywhere.

Most interesting - his original 72 hour think-tank seems to have been held within a month of 9/11? If this is so, shouldn't the troofers be erecting statues to the guy? He's the first nutjob theorist out of the starting gate!

And why a 72 hour non-stop gabfest? Were they under pressure? Was the Illuminati wet team storming the gate? This seems a bit of stupid drama. The original postings of the report are all identical, and rather shoddily patched together. I don't doubt it's his work, but all the more reason to question.

[Bell]

GRAND DON RED PEN (wasn't on the list)

Sounds like some obscure mobster.

[Mr. Skinny]

I did a little sniffing on the publisher

Chosen Books are a divison of of Baker Publishing

Their mission statement

Ever since the 1971 publication of The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom, Chosen Books has been publishing powerful books that help millions to live the Spirit-filled life.

They are subsequently owned by Baker Publishing who list Cambridge Universty Press as part of their portfolio in North America.

He has also released two other fiction books

The boys from Bent Willow: A saga of World War II in 2003

Look homeward cowboy: A saga of World War II in 2002


For the life of me - I cant find any review, discussion or extract of these books anywhere on the net. They must exist because they have been assigned ISBN numbers
Can I suggest that you PM Library Lady or Zakur at this forum? They are librarians and may be able to assist.

[T.A.M.]

If he worked for all these people, would a simple FOIA request yield where he worked and when?

TAM

[kevin]

If it's an anagram, here are the possible choices. Excluding Colonel.


Bah. Missed: Nerd N. Pendragon (using the donn de grand pre version)

Obviously his true name.

[ktesibios]

He also seems to have added the "de" somewhere along the line.
Since his earlier books were Donn Grand Pre, and his airport (and now the reverse search) yield Donn Grand Pre, I guess we can assume that's the name. But whether it's a nom de plume or alias has yet to be seen.


A little touch of Peterson Dunlap (http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/phctf.html) syndrome, perhaps? ;)

[Hellbound]

If he worked for all these people, would a simple FOIA request yield where he worked and when?

TAM

Possibly, I haven't yet heard anything back on mine so I'm not sure.

I believe it would give at least generalities, though...and things such as classified assignments would still be listed, just without any details (i.e., something like 1998-2000, details not releaseable or something...they mentioned this in the article I posted earlier).

When I get a response back, I'll know more :)

[Foolmewunz]

Bump for good reason. This deserves more attention, and while waiting for some answers, the subject of Colonel Donn should be seen by anyone who isn't aware of him, yet.

[JamesB]

I ran across this Grand Pre interview on the veterans for 9/11 truth site. He is now claiming that General Pace is a good friend of his, and that 70% of senior military officers and NCOs support a coup against the Bush administration (sometime in the next 2 months). Oh, and the number one cause of terrorism in the world is the Israelis who have been causing problems for 85 years and have infiltrated the highest reaches of our government.

http://www.freedomisforeverybody.org/M/Col.%20Donn%20de%20Grand-Pre%2064.mp3

[CptColumbo]

I ran across this Grand Pre interview on the veterans for 9/11 truth site. He is now claiming that General Pace is a good friend of his, and that 70% of senior military officers and NCOs support a coup against the Bush administration (sometime in the next 2 months). Oh, and the number one cause of terrorism in the world is the Israelis who have been causing problems for 85 years and have infiltrated the highest reaches of our government.

http://www.freedomisforeverybody.org/M/Col.%20Donn%20de%20Grand-Pre%2064.mp3

Well, as long as he isn't crazy.
:)

[The_Fire]

Oh joy: The worlds largest collection of nukes at the hands of a military dictatorship......Anyone know of a cheap ABC bunker for sale?

[JamesB]

Oh joy: The worlds largest collection of nukes at the hands of a military dictatorship......Anyone know of a cheap ABC bunker for sale?

Don't worry, I think the odds of Grand Pre being an actual Pentagon insider are about as great as those of me being a porn star.

[JamesB]

BTW although I have to admit I have been lazy and never did a FOIA on this kook, I have done more work on his kookiness. Part of it is in a SLC post:

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2007/09/donn-de-grand-pre-returns.html

Also, the original V911T poster sent out another "memo" along with more names of Grand Pres friends. They include:

Lt. Cmdr John Sharpe, who was relieved of duty as Navy PAO for belonging to a radical Catholic anti-Semitic organization.

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/03/ntpaorelieved070309/

And Dr. Robert Hickson, who wrote a letter defending Sharpe


http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/sharpe_hickson.htm

And who belongs to another anti-Semitic Catholic organization called the Saint Benedict Center.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=782

And surely the connection between all these conspiracy theorists and racists is purely coincidental...

Also I have a PDF of one of Grand Pre's nutty books, if anyone wants it send me an e-mail. I would never spend any money on this Nazi crap, but it is an interesting study in mental illness.

[dudalb]

Is it just me or does the Truther Movement seem uncommonly friendly to Anti Semites and other assorted bigots?

[dudalb]

Someone around town has been leaving copies of The American Free Press...the 21st Century's answer to Streicher's Der Sturmer....around town. I take an occasional glance but inevitably dump it in the nearest trash can after just a few minutes. It is really that disgusting.
At one point,when I first ran across it, it at least made a weak attempt to mask it's Anti Semitism,but now they have pretty much outed themselves.
And this Hate Sheet is constanly quoted by Truthers,including some who would no doubt consider themselves as radical Left Wing revolutionaries. Crazy,just crazy.

[OldTigerCub]

The one thing that really strikes me as odd is the reference to serving during WW2. If Grand Pre is actually a retired military man, he would have to be at least 81 or older, and,seeminly, would have retired decades ago.
I see that the pownetwork.org has already been recommended at the beginning of the thread. I found their site a couple of years back, and can vouch for the fact that they love to go after and even prosecute imposters, especially high profile imposters and MOH imposters. They had quite a few listings of individuals posing as high ranking officers who had legitimate military service, but were almost always low ranking enlisted men.
With the publicity he is attracting and the claims he is making, it shouldn't be too long before his real story is known and the troothers lose another of their heroes.

[SpitfireIX]

The one thing that really strikes me as odd is the reference to serving during WW2. If Grand Pre is actually a retired military man, he would have to be at least 81 or older, and,seeminly, would have retired decades ago.
I see that the pownetwork.org has already been recommended at the beginning of the thread. I found their site a couple of years back, and can vouch for the fact that they love to go after and even prosecute imposters, especially high profile imposters and MOH imposters. They had quite a few listings of individuals posing as high ranking officers who had legitimate military service, but were almost always low ranking enlisted men.
With the publicity he is attracting and the claims he is making, it shouldn't be too long before his real story is known and the troothers lose another of their heroes.


I did a search on intelius.com There is a Donn R. Grandpre, age 81, in Virginia. There's also a Donn A. Grandpre, age 51, in South Dakota. My guess is that Grandpre the Elder really was in the Army, but that he has a grossly inflated opinion of his accomplishments and importance. Presumably Grandpre the Younger is his son, and may be the one who was an NCO.

[OldTigerCub]

:rolleyes:I did a search on intelius.com There is a Donn R. Grandpre, age 81, in Virginia. There's also a Donn A. Grandpre, age 51, in South Dakota. My guess is that Grandpre the Elder really was in the Army, but that he has a grossly inflated opinion of his accomplishments and importance. Presumably Grandpre the Younger is his son, and may be the one who was an NCO.

Thanks, Spitfire!
I never heard of intelius.com...I will add that to my search library.
I met so many real heroes at my dad's army outfit reunion last year (10th Armored Division) that I was overwhelmed by what those guys did when they were just kids. Most were well into their 80's...a couple were in their 90's. It bacame pretty obvious very quickly that the men who really faced action don't want to be known as heroes...the heroes to them are the ones who never came home.
That's what makes me so sceptical of anyone making claims such as the ones Grand Pre makes.
Maybe that's the baseline for my "smell detector" these days...and Grand Pre's stories don't quite pass it.

[leftysergeant]

Don't worry, I think the odds of Grand Pre being an actual Pentagon insider are about as great as those of me being a porn star.What? You think you're not sexy enough? What about Ron Jeremy?

Or are you more...er..oh, my...EWWW!

One thing bothers me about the debunking of the F-16 pilot story. Is there a two-seater version of the F-16? I've never seen one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Why would they send an F-16 to pick someone up?

Aside from that, Grand Pre seems the less credible party.

Looking at some of the authors published by the same publisher, I notice Corrie Ten Boom, who, as far as I can recall seems reasonably woo-free. But I also see Chuck Colson. Little smelly there.

THey strike me as a sort of Dominionist outfit. Is this any help in at least defining possible motivations or parochial aggenda?

Derail: I was not aware of the pownet fraud tracking function. Has anyone run Eric May through that filter?

[ref]

CLAIM: In February 2004, retired Army Col. Donn de Grand-Pre said on "The Alex Jones Show," a radio talk show broadcast on 42 stations: "It [Flight 93] was taken out by the North Dakota Air Guard. I know the pilot who fired those two missiles to take down 93." LetsRoll911.org, citing de Grand-Pre, identifies the pilot: "Major Rick Gibney fired two Sidewinder missiles at the aircraft and destroyed it in midflight at precisely 0958."

For those who are wondering, there is no way this story is true.

At 0958 flight 93 was flying at 5 000 ft. A couple of minutes later it climbed to 10 000 ft before crashing down. Would an aircraft destroyed in midflight by two sidewinder missiles climb another 5 000 ft in the following minutes?

The fighters never got anywhere near flight 93, what they did get to was DAL1989. But two planes were nearby. There was a white jet in the vicinity of Flight 93--a Dassault Falcon 20 business jet owned by the VF Corp. of Greensboro, N.C. The FAA asked them to investigate and they did. They got down within 1500 ft. of the ground when they circled. They saw a hole in the ground with smoke coming out of it. They pinpointed the location and then continued on. The only military plane in the vicinity of the crash site was an unarmed C-130 cargo plane.

[buka001]

One thing bothers me about the debunking of the F-16 pilot story. Is there a two-seater version of the F-16? I've never seen one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Why would they send an F-16 to pick someone up?



A two seater version of the F-16 does indeed exist. Th F-16B and D are two seaters. As is shown

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-16.htm


Having an F-16 fly to pick you up is peculiar, perhaps, it was deemed the quickest way of getting the guy there. I wish I had access to such a fantastic taxi service!! :D

[fagin]

A two seater version of the F-16 does indeed exist. Th F-16B and D are two seaters. As is shown

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-16.htm


Having an F-16 fly to pick you up is peculiar, perhaps, it was deemed the quickest way of getting the guy there. I wish I had access to such a fantastic taxi service!! :D

Apologies for sounding serious but the way I read it was that the plane was heading towards the destination anyway and he hitched a lift, not that a special trip was arranged.

[fagin]

But agreed a really cool taxi service.

[leftysergeant]

But agreed a really cool taxi service.

And a bit expensive.

Just wanted to be sure of that before stating explicitely that this proves one point of Da Twoof to be made up out of nothing.

[AMTMAN]

I did a search on intelius.com There is a Donn R. Grandpre, age 81, in Virginia. There's also a Donn A. Grandpre, age 51, in South Dakota. My guess is that Grandpre the Elder really was in the Army, but that he has a grossly inflated opinion of his accomplishments and importance. Presumably Grandpre the Younger is his son, and may be the one who was an NCO.

It would not be the first time someone who has been in the military inflates their service record. With the knowledge they have they can put up a preety good front. Having spent four years in the Navy I could make a preety convincing case that I was a Navy fighter pilot, even though I wasn't.

[PhantomWolf]

What? You think you're not sexy enough? What about Ron Jeremy?

Totally offtopic, but...

A couple of years back the "porn king of NZ" had a competition to find a NZ porn star with the winner going to star in a movie with Ron Jeremy. Turned out that after meeting him she pulled out rather than be in the movie with a ugly old geezer like him, lol.

[/derail]

[Tbone]

pulled out

*snickers like a 10 year old*

[leftysergeant]

Okay, I checked out pownet. They have already vetted Eric H. May. Just what I suspected, given his age and rank "2XPO for promotion to Major." He was already a major dud, from the entry on him.

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1075.htm

Can I get a laughing dog here?

[Darth Rotor]

It would not be the first time someone who has been in the military inflates their service record. With the knowledge they have they can put up a preety good front. Having spent four years in the Navy I could make a preety convincing case that I was a Navy fighter pilot, even though I wasn't.

The plane in your avatar was a fine specimin of American engineering and fighter. Did you work on them?

DR

[StoneWT]

The link to Eric May should be e-mailed to the conspiracy shows that had him on the air.

[leftysergeant]

I'm looking now for an e-mail address for Cindy Sheehan. She needs to know that at least one of her camp followers is not the credit to her movement that she seems to think he is.

I'm also writing to the superintendant of the Houston Catholic Schools. There is a claim on his website that he was once named Teacher of the Year in the Houston Catholic School. If it is for real, they may want to re-examine his resume and background check. I have worked security for a Catholic school, and I do not think they want him on the grounds, given their concern for integrity and the safety of students.

If he is just blowing smoke about that, too, they would probably want the claim blotted off his website.

[peteweaver]

Is it just me or does the Truther Movement seem uncommonly friendly to Anti Semites and other assorted bigots?

No its not just you, I've noticed that aswell....

[leftysergeant]

As I have pointed out before, one of the things that the white nationalists need, in order to sucede in their ambition to reshape society is numbers. There are not enough of the little morons now to do the job. 9/11 was a great blessing to their cause. So is the twoofer movement. They want to sow as much disaffection among the people as possible, and such deep despair that people will believe that they have to overthrow the government by force of arms to get their new investigation.

There are people in place already to take on the leadership role in any such uprising, but getting the twoof is not their main objective. It is to build the Fourth Reich.

Da Twoof is the conspiracy.

[9/11-investigator]

Dear all,

I'm a little bit ashamed that I have to confess that I discovered this Col. Donn de Grand-Pre character not earlier than tonight. That's what you get with these amateur 9/11-investigators like me.

On the other hand, I'm not particular impressed by the quality of your debunking efforts either. It took you guys almost a whole year to end up in the inevitable 'anti-semite corner' of the explanation space, basically meaning that this colonel could be right.

The sheer joy of recognition, God am I good! He even confirms the nerve-gas sort of scenario I had to pull out of my sleeve after you fellas convinced me that in the type of 9/11-planes it's always possible to mechanically overrule any 'auto-pilot gone wild scenario'. The only thing different from 'my' scenario (Bollyn's really) is the plane swapping (Bollyn himself seems to be on that trail).

I can live with that.

Yesterday I started a new blog just for scribbling...

http://911notes.blogspot.com/

...so we can stay in touch. :p

The 9/11 denouement is near.

[chillzero]

3 splits made. One to AAH - keep posts civil and on topic.
1 to the history section:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=142305

and 1 to a new CT thread:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=142306

[9/11-investigator]

Thanks to chillzero for not throwing essential posts in the memory hole but instead start new threads! Not that I expect them to become classics, but again thanks anyway.

Back on topic. What we see here with the colonel is a familiar pattern. Colonel Donn de Grand Pre goes to Alex Jones to spill the beans only after he had a stroke and at almost 80 years old. It did not matter anymore for him. He died earlier this year.

Same thing with Italian ex-president Cossiga who gave an interview with Italy's largest newspaper where he said that 9/11 was a Mossad/CIA coproduction, only after he found out he had terminal cancer.

And that's the problem for insiders in the know to come out and speak 9/11-truth: it's gonna cost you, it's sort of high-treason. Look what happened to Rosie O'Donnell, to Canadian politician Leslie Hughes, who merely expressed doubts regarding the OCT: they got fired.

The only people who are willing to pursue 9/11 truth are people with no real big stakes in present day society: lefties, libertarians and white nationalists. Or people who probably are fed-up with their boring mediocre architect existence like Gage, who want to quit designing steel-framed highrise buildings and from a corner of their eyes saw what happened to ordinary people like Walesa or Havel.

[Lenbrazil]

Someone around town has been leaving copies of The American Free Press...the 21st Century's answer to Streicher's Der Sturmer....around town. I take an occasional glance but inevitably dump it in the nearest trash can after just a few minutes.

I'd take as many as I culd lay my hands on and donate them to a recyling center or bird owner.

[beachnut]

Back on topic. What we see here with the colonel is a familiar pattern. Colonel Donn de Grand Pre goes to Alex Jones to spill the beans only after he had a stroke and at almost 80 years old. It did not matter anymore for him. He died earlier this year.

...
And that's the problem for insiders in the know to come out and speak 9/11-truth: it's gonna cost you, it's sort of high-treason. Look what happened to Rosie O'Donnell, to Canadian politician Leslie Hughes, who merely expressed doubts regarding the OCT: they got fired.

....
The problem is the people of 911Truth have no evidence. If they had evidence they would have a Pulitzer Prize. Like Watergate, the 911Truth conclusions would earn a Pulitzer Prize but 911Truth conclusions are delusions.

[9/11-investigator]

The problem is the people of 911Truth have no evidence. If they had evidence they would have a Pulitzer Prize. Like Watergate, the 911Truth conclusions would earn a Pulitzer Prize but 911Truth conclusions are delusions.

So here we have a high-ranking military man...

http://www.prisonplanet.com/290204degrand.mp3

... and all you are saying is repeating the mantra 'no evidence'. You have a little bit of a credibility problem, wouldn't you think?

Especially since we have an independent source (Elisabeth Nelson) that confirms the story that flight93 was shot down by the military:

http://prisonplanet.com/images/april2009/080409clip.mp3

... which again is entirely consistent with the absence of debris.

That's enough evidence to know that flight93 was shot down and did not crash in the ground after spiraling down after in ran out of control after a struggle between lets-rollers and muzzies.

Link (http://groups.google.is/group/can.politics/browse_thread/thread/b754179d967bdc09)
Footage of the crash site showed barely any debris whatsoever. Compare this
to any other plane crash in history and the contrast is astounding.

The debris field of Flight 93 was eight miles wide - investigators found a
second debris field three miles away from the main crash site at Indian
Lake, and a third debris field in New Baltimore, eight miles away. This is
entirely consistent with the plane having been shot down.

Several eyewitnesses described hearing explosions before Flight 93 crashed
and others said they heard missiles.

And here is more (http://www.prisonplanet.com/september_11_us_government_accused.html) about the Portugal conference led by the colonel.

[beachnut]

So here we have a high-ranking military man...

Footage of the crash site showed barely any debris whatsoever. Compare this
to any other plane crash in history and the contrast is astounding.

The debris field of Flight 93 was eight miles wide - investigators found a
second debris field three miles away from the main crash site at Indian
Lake, and a third debris field in New Baltimore, eight miles away. This is
entirely consistent with the plane having been shot down.

Several eyewitnesses described hearing explosions before Flight 93 crashed
and others said they heard missiles. ...


No debris; I love it when you fail to do any research at all and post lies.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris8sm.jpg

The debris was all over the place after 93 hit at 600 mph. I was in the air force and worked (in charge of the scene) crash scene like this, but at slower speed of impact, but complete breakup of the aircraft. I have many pictures of 93 debris.


Not the first time a Col went nuts making up lies; you have no nut case Col with zero evidence. If you had something you and the idiot Col would have a Pulitzer Prize. Instead you have nut case ideas and delusions. No Prize.

The impact of flight 93 is what a 600 mph impact looks like.

The eight mile debris field is a delusion you are supporting? The items found further than a few hundred yards were small enough to be blown by the wind when ejected from the high speed impact.

Present exactly what was found 8 miles away. Good luck.

The FDR of 93 shows the plane was in one piece when it hit. Instead of talking and making up lies you should have studied the FDR and you would not be making dirt dumb posts supporting some delusions from some nuts in 911Truth.

A missile? Present the evidence. There were no planes near 93 with missiles on 911. You believe in lies. You have no evidence you have hearsay and no sources with evidence.

You have posted more lies, hearsay and delusions backed up with no evidence. As I stated clearly, if you had what you say you have you would have a Pulitzer Prize. Do you have more than dirt dumb delusions?

[9/11-investigator]

JamesB posted this link earlier in this thread in oct 2006:

http://www.freedomisforeverybody.org/M/Col.%20Donn%20de%20Grand-Pre%2064.mp3

Another colonel called our colonel over the phone to talk about 9/11 after the Alex Jones interview: they confirm the entire Bollyn-line: the neocon-conspiracy, Israel, even Zakheim, the fear for another 9/11, the mentioning of a sense of resistance within the army to crush the neocon conspiracy.

Revealing.

[9/11-investigator]

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris8sm.jpg


What, you want to sell that little piece of grass littered with cow dung as Boeing debris???

I really have to protect Boeing against you.
Who needs evidence when I have you to debunk yourself!

http://www.davidburt.co.uk/yesterday/images/LaughingDog.gif

[9/11-investigator]

Here is an MSM report dating 13 sept 2001:

http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp

Finding the flight data recorder had been the focus of investigators as they widened their search area today following the discoveries of more debris, including what appeared to be human remains, miles from the point of impact at a reclaimed coal mine.

Residents and workers at businesses outside Shanksville, Somerset County, reported discovering clothing, books, papers and what appeared to be human remains. Some residents said they collected bags-full of items to be turned over to investigators. Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scene.

So who is 'dirt dumb lying' here.
You are.

[PB2007]

including what appeared to be human remains

Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scene.

...and did it turn out to be crash debris / human remains, or just something that looked like it? Appearances can be deceptive....

[9/11-investigator]

...and did it turn out to be crash debris / human remains, or just something that looked like it? Appearances can be deceptive....

You are quoting selectively. The qualifier 'appeared' was linked to the human remains. The full quote was:

following the discoveries of more debris, including what appeared to be human remains, miles from the point of impact


No reservations were stated regarding debris located miles from the poi.

F93 was shot down. An F16 pilot from the 'Happy Hooligans' went up because the plane was flying over verboten territory, intercepted the plane, flew next to it, saw the Euro-American pilots hanging over their controls, unconscious or dead; same picture for the passengers. The pilot reported this and he got his order to shoot the plane down since it was flying over sparsely inhabited terrain. This story is consistent both with the story from the colonel and from miss Nelson. F93 was a failure in the planning of the plotters and the reason was the 41 minute delay it unexpectedly had and hence F93 had lost it surprise advantage. The military men who had given the shootdown order got an order in their turn from higher up to shut up.

[PB2007]

No reservations were stated regarding debris located miles from the poi.

From the article...

Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scene

Apart from the qualifier in bold, you mean?

In BOTH cases it says it APPEARS to be debris and human remains. The questions is

Did it turn out to be debris and / or human remains or just something that looked like it?

[jhunter1163]

The debris field for Pan Am 103 (which actually broke up in midair) was in the thousands of square miles. The debris field for Flight 93 was in the single figures of square miles.

What does this tell you, truthers?

[9/11-investigator]

The debris field for Pan Am 103 (which actually broke up in midair) was in the thousands of square miles. The debris field for Flight 93 was in the single figures of square miles.

What does this tell you, truthers?

Pan Am 103 did not 'break up' but was blown up with a bomb, an event comparable with the rocket that brought down F93.

But are you saying that F93 broke up in midair as well? Hopefully you are not trying to sell me the idea that F93 flew into the ground as one piece and that after the crash parts of the plane just bumped along for a couple of miles like a basketball.

[9/11-investigator]

Edited for Rule 11. There are plenty of threads to discuss CIT. Keep this thread on topic - you've had enough splits already.

[jhunter1163]

Pan Am 103 did not 'break up' but was blown up with a bomb, an event comparable with the rocket that brought down F93.

But are you saying that F93 broke up in midair as well? Hopefully you are not trying to sell me the idea that F93 flew into the ground as one piece and that after the crash parts of the plane just bumped along for a couple of miles like a basketball.

If UA93 blew up in midair, parts of it would have been scattered for miles and miles in every direction, as was seen with PA103.

This was NOT seen with UA93. Most (>90%) of the plane was found within 300 yards of the impact site, and the only debris that was found at any great distance was very light stuff that could have been blown on the wind.

From this we can conclude that, since UA93's debris was not scattered to any great extent, it did not explode in midair as PA103 did.

And that's not even mentioning the fact that UA93's FDR shows that the plane was functioning normally right up until impact.

[Crazytimes]

The debris field of Flight 93 was eight miles wide - investigators found a
second debris field three miles away from the main crash site at Indian
Lake, and a third debris field in New Baltimore, eight miles away. This is
entirely consistent with the plane having been shot down.

Several eyewitnesses described hearing explosions before Flight 93 crashed
and others said they heard missiles[/I].

And here is more (http://www.prisonplanet.com/september_11_us_government_accused.html) about the Portugal conference led by the colonel.

This is so stupid and incorrect. I am sick of idiots like Jones saying that plane crashed dont have more tha a mile of a debris field.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff7h7Ll8Dl4

[BigAl]

Pan Am 103 did not 'break up' but was blown up with a bomb, an event comparable with the rocket that brought down F93.


If a bomb or rocket brought Flt93 down, it would have clearly shown up on the voice and data recorders.

The data shows that Flt93 hit the ground completely intact except possibly for some damage due to excess speed that didn't affect it's ability to be flown into the ground by the person at the controls.

[Crazytimes]

Why is it that truthers cannot see the difference in a plane that was crashed landed and a plane that was purposly crashed at top speed ?

[Elizabeth I]

Rosie O'Donnell is an "insider"? Tell me, what position did she occupy in the soopersekrit eebull neocon NWO hierarchy prior to the day she turned her coat?

[PB2007]

9/11-investigator -

When you are ready feel free to answer my question in post 76. Please re-read it all because it's apparent you haven't fully read the article that you linked to. It states

Finding the flight data recorder had been the focus of investigators as they widened their search area today following the discoveries of more debris, including what appeared to be human remains, miles from the point of impact at a reclaimed coal mine.

and

Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scene.

So, what did it turn out to be?

[BigAl]

Here is an MSM report dating 13 sept 2001:

http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp

Finding the flight data recorder had been the focus of investigators as they widened their search area today following the discoveries of more debris, including what appeared to be human remains, miles from the point of impact at a reclaimed coal mine.



Birds and small animals can and do carry body parts. We continue to find bones around WTC in unlikely places from 9/11.



Residents and workers at businesses outside Shanksville, Somerset County, reported discovering clothing, books, papers and what appeared to be human remains. Some residents said they collected bags-full of items to be turned over to investigators. Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scene.

If you actually read the source, you'd find that "6 miles" was by car and Indian lake was much closer to the actual crash.



So who is 'dirt dumb lying' here.


The morons who's made up claims you parrot.

None of the several thousands people involved with the FLt93 crash site and investigation seem to think that it was anything but a crash caused by the pilot at the controls.

[WildCat]

Or people who probably are fed-up with their boring mediocre architect existence like Gage, who want to quit designing steel-framed highrise buildings and from a corner of their eyes saw what happened to ordinary people like Walesa or Havel.
How can Gage quit doing something he had never done in the first place?

[WildCat]

What, you want to sell that little piece of grass littered with cow dung as Boeing debris???
You think that's cow dung? Even the stuff on the roof?

FAIL!

[WildCat]

So, what did it turn out to be?
Gee whiz PB, finding that out would require, you know, actually investigating and stuff.

Surfing conspiracy sites is so much easier.

[PB2007]

Gee whiz PB, finding that out would require, you know, actually investigating and stuff.

Yeah but i want to hear from 9/11-investigator what it was....

I know it wasn't body parts or aircraft parts but 9/11-investigator seems to think it's a key part of the "proof" that FLight 93 was shot down.

I think it's his blog that's been shot down many times but he continues to try to get it to fly....

[beachnut]

What, you want to sell that little piece of grass littered with cow dung as Boeing debris???

I really have to protect Boeing against you.
Who needs evidence when I have you to debunk yourself!

http://www.davidburt.co.uk/yesterday/images/LaughingDog.gif
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris11e.jpg
This is what a 600 mph impact looks like for a 757. If you had knowledge on this subject you would know. But you remain ignorant on aircraft impacts as you post lies and laugh not knowing you are displaying ignorance.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris18sm.jpg
Debris from 93.

The CVR, FDR, and all the passengers DNA was recovered from the impact area. Make your ideas on this this area moronic tripe.

[Björn Toulouse]

JamesB posted this link earlier in this thread in oct 2006:

http://www.freedomisforeverybody.org/M/Col.%20Donn%20de%20Grand-Pre%2064.mp3

Another colonel called our colonel over the phone to talk about 9/11 after the Alex Jones interview: they confirm the entire Bollyn-line: the neocon-conspiracy, Israel, even Zakheim, the fear for another 9/11, the mentioning of a sense of resistance within the army to crush the neocon conspiracy.

Revealing.




For the sake of accuracy, it was not a colonel who called a colonel. Alfons (http://forums.randi.org/Olszewski)Olszewski (http://forums.randi.org/Olszewski) was an E-4 in the service. Also at 2:38 in the interview you linked, Alfons clearly says he was not a colonel. You might want to correct this error on your blog. What they "confirmed" in that 20 minute conversation was nothing more than their own personal suspicions.

[9/11-investigator]

For the sake of accuracy, it was not a colonel who called a colonel. Alfons (http://forums.randi.org/Olszewski)Olszewski (http://forums.randi.org/Olszewski) was an E-4 in the service. Also at 2:38 in the interview you linked, Alfons clearly says he was not a colonel. You might want to correct this error on your blog. What they "confirmed" in that 20 minute conversation was nothing more than their own personal suspicions.

Thanks, I revised it.

To return the favour: your link does not work.

Regarding these personal suspicions: the colonel organized a 3 day conference about the subject on another continent, paid probably from his own pocket. The other **officer** was involved in a sort of 'military for 9/11-truth' organisation. They both most likely spent considerable time thinking 9/11 through before arriving at their conclusions. And if the colonel says that he knows the pilot that shot down the plane, then I am inclined to believe him. He sounded like a man of honour, not saying these things just for the heck of it.

[9/11-investigator]

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris11e.jpg
This is what a 600 mph impact looks like for a 757. If you had knowledge on this subject you would know. But you remain ignorant on aircraft impacts as you post lies and laugh not knowing you are displaying ignorance.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris18sm.jpg
Debris from 93.

The CVR, FDR, and all the passengers DNA was recovered from the impact area. Make your ideas on this this area moronic tripe.

Ehh beachnut, I'm not entirely sure what you want to prove with these photo's of (empty) mooncrater look-a-likes other than that the US has a severe drought problem. Nobody disputes that F93 came down, although your photos do a very lousy job in proving even that. The issue here is the size of the debris field which is an indication of how exactly F93 came down: either in 'let's roll Hollywood' style (1 piece) or 'Lockerbie style', as I claim was the case with my MSM supported 8 miles diameter debris field.

And the Lockerbie plane leftover at least had a recognisable body (http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/workshops/webmaster-2008/talks/currall/slides/images/panam_103.jpg).

Fortunately at least a visa was found of the hijacker (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2004/230804visafound.htm) on the location of impact otherwise people would have started to doubt that a plane had crashed there at all. :D

[beachnut]

Ehh beachnut, I'm not entirely sure what you want to prove with these photo's of (empty) mooncrater look-a-likes other than that the US has a severe drought problem. Nobody disputes that F93 came down, although your photos do a very lousy job in proving even that. The issue here is the size of the debris field which is an indication of how exactly F93 came down: either in 'let's roll Hollywood' style (1 piece) or 'Lockerbie style', as I claim was the case with my MSM supported 8 miles diameter debris field.

And the Lockerbie plane leftover at least had a recognisable body (http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/web-focus/events/workshops/webmaster-2008/talks/currall/slides/images/panam_103.jpg).

Fortunately at least a visa was found of the hijacker (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2004/230804visafound.htm) on the location of impact otherwise people would have started to doubt that a plane had crashed there at all. :D
You bring failed opinions.

Lockerbie broke up in flight and fell to earth.

Flight 93 flew into the ground faster than 600 mph.

So you lack the knowledge to understand physics and 911.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris21sm.jpg

These are parts of 93 ejected from an impact of a 600 mph jet not blown up in the sky. You will fail to understand facts; you are too biased and lack the diversity around you needed to be the best.

[WildCat]

Ehh beachnut, I'm not entirely sure what you want to prove with these photo's of (empty) mooncrater look-a-likes other than that the US has a severe drought problem. Nobody disputes that F93 came down, although your photos do a very lousy job in proving even that. The issue here is the size of the debris field which is an indication of how exactly F93 came down: either in 'let's roll Hollywood' style (1 piece) or 'Lockerbie style', as I claim was the case with my MSM supported 8 miles diameter debris field.

You have actually proved the case that it hit in one piece. Breakup at altitude would have meant debris hit the ground at terminal velocity, far slower than 600 mph. That's why the Lockerbie plane had large recognizeable pieces, while Flight 93 did not.

Congrats 9/11-investigator, you proved that the "OCT" is correct!

[Lenbrazil]

The issue here is the size of the debris field which is an indication of how exactly F93 came down: either in 'let's roll Hollywood' style (1 piece) or 'Lockerbie style', as I claim was the case with my MSM supported 8 miles diameter debris field.

I'm sure this has been gone over, over and over again here, the dispersed debris was lightweight stuff like paper and seat covers found beyond the plane's flight path. The only heavy item distant from the hole was an engine part about 1000 feet (accounts vary) downhill. A 200+ ton plane hitting the ground at 500+ MPH produces a lot of energy

[9/11-investigator]

You bring failed opinions.

Lockerbie broke up in flight and fell to earth.

Flight 93 flew into the ground faster than 600 mph.

So you lack the knowledge to understand physics and 911.


OK, since you are the (self-professed) physics buff around here, you are going to explain to me why the impact crater in case of Lockerbie was much larger than in Shanksville, despite the fact that the Lockerbie plane came whirling from the sky like an autumn maple leaf and in contrast F93 came down like a mach3 Sunburn rocket fired by Iranians hell bent on sinking an American carrier in the Straight of Hormuz.

Good luck to you, Zweistein.

P.S. beachnut: in real life references from mum or yourself don't count.

[Mr.Herbert]

Hey Truther... care to explain flight 1771?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2012161848891209006

[Björn Toulouse]

To return the favour: your link does not work.


Alfons (http://www.v911t.org/members.php). Scroll down to the member list.

Regarding these personal suspicions: the colonel organized a 3 day conference about the subject on another continent, paid probably from his own pocket. The other **officer** was involved in a sort of 'military for 9/11-truth' organisation. They both most likely spent considerable time thinking 9/11 through before arriving at their conclusions. And if the colonel says that he knows the pilot that shot down the plane, then I am inclined to believe him. He sounded like a man of honour, not saying these things just for the heck of it.


This is what Grand-Pre says about that "conference" to Alex Jones in the PP interview (http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904degrand.html):



And then, you mentioned the interview in Portugal. I didn't actually go to Portugal but on 11 September, actually it was 12 September, I wrote to my friend Gen. Hugh Shelton, who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs at that time. He was transited out. And he was replaced by Gen. Richard, what the heck was the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs' The name escapes me. He was a four-star Air Force General. And, Myers, I guess, was the name. At any rate, I called together from 16 to 19 September, in the Pentagon area, not in the Pentagon, a group of military, civilian and general aviation pilots. And for three days, we kicked around what actually happened on 11 September. And then the investigator journalists covered that and it was reported in the Portugal news and very accurate.



Grande-Pre's address on the first page of this thread is listed as Culpeper, Virginia, which can be reached from the Pentagon with one Interstate and one state route. His expenses should not have been much at all. It could be that "in the Pentagon area" is Culpeper itself. Sounds like the guys had a 3 day bull session not unlike conversations seen on boards like this and if he were not computer illiterate, he might have been able to have accomplished it via the internet.


An E-4 is a corporal in the U.S. Army, not even a non-commissioned officer.

[JoeyDonuts]

and in contrast F93 came down like a mach3 Sunburn rocket fired by Iranians hell bent on sinking an American carrier in the Straight of Hormuz.


Horrible comparison. Flight 93 did not skim the ground weaving back and forth at 9 G's. You wanna talk missile flight profiles, you wandered into the wrong neck of the woods, my friend.

And what makes you think that the Iranians have gotten their hands on the SS-N-22?

[cludgie]

OK, since you are the (self-professed) physics buff around here, you are going to explain to me why the impact crater in case of Lockerbie was much larger than in Shanksville, despite the fact that the Lockerbie plane came whirling from the sky like an autumn maple leaf and in contrast F93 came down like a mach3 Sunburn rocket fired by Iranians hell bent on sinking an American carrier in the Straight of Hormuz.


The only craters at Lockerbie were created by the (very heavy) engines striking the ground.

[beachnut]

The only craters at Lockerbie were created by the (very heavy) engines striking the ground.
4 big engines - 9,000 pounds each. That makes sense. Massive compared to the cockpit which is seen sitting on the ground in a large smashed section.

The large crater, or one large crater was caused by a wing with 200,000 pounds of fuel in it. The cockpit seen collapsed had crew still in seats and some passengers I believe.

There is a big difference for a plane in one piece hitting the ground, than many sections coming to the ground at various speeds.

[Travis]

Here's a video clip that helps illustrate the type of debris you get from 600 mph+ impacts.

Mh835unue5w

[JoeyDonuts]

FAKED!!!!

wait...what was it?

[beachnut]

Here's a video clip that helps illustrate the type of debris you get from 600 mph+ impacts.


Great post.

Flight 93 was similar at 880 feet per second. Our 911Truth no physics person can't understand the impact of 93 was equal in KE to the energy of 1,637 pounds of TNT. E= 1/2 mv2



Grand-Pre is dirt dumb. Has anyone read his delusional work which debunks itself as it goes?

[cludgie]

Has Grand Pre even decided which branch of the military he was in? I seem to recall hes claimed to have been in just about all of them at one time or another. I get the impression he was about as much of a real colonel as Colonel Sanders.

[Travis]

Great post.

Flight 93 was similar at 880 feet per second. Our 911Truth no physics person can't understand the impact of 93 was equal in KE to the energy of 1,637 pounds of TNT. E= 1/2 mv2


Mythbusters are providing relevant awesomeness all the time it seems.:D

[9/11-investigator]

Great irrelevant post.

Nobody expects a recognizable Boeing lying around on some field. The point is: did parts of that demolished car in that video end up 8 miles from the impact location? Of course not.

Flight 93 was similar at 880 feet per second. Our 911Truth no physics person can't understand the impact of 93 was equal in KE to the energy of 1,637 pounds of TNT. E= 1/2 mv[sup]2

OMG, beachnut has googled up some simpleton 2nd year highschool physics for 14 year olds and thinks in all earnest that he has proven a point.

Grand-Pre is dirt dumb. Has anyone read his delusional work which debunks itself as it goes?

You should somewhat economize on your usage of the phrase 'dirt dumb' as it pops up in every post of yours. Especially since that phrase applies to you. You cannot call a book 'delusional' and stating that it 'debunks itself as it goes' and than asking if somebody has read it, and that all in one sentence. :D

Again, I'll repeat what is the issue here: explain how parts of the plane could end up 8 miles from the original point of impact if the plane came down in one piece. And please spare me pictures of impact craters or home videos of crashing objects. Just verbal arguments.

[WildCat]

Here's a video clip that helps illustrate the type of debris you get from 600 mph+ impacts.

Mh835unue5w
Hahahaha, he said "what car?" at the end. There was no car!

Debunked!

[Crazytimes]

Hey Truther... care to explain flight 1771?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2012161848891209006


I see this still hasnt been addressed. This must have also been an inside job.

[PB2007]

Again, I'll repeat what is the issue here: explain how parts of the plane could end up 8 miles from the original point of impact if the plane came down in one piece.

They didn't. Where is the evidence they did? And please don't quote that article because it clearly says

Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scene.

[9/11-investigator]

Hahahaha, he said "what car?" at the end. There was no car!

Debunked!

WildCat implicitly admits that (s)he has no arguments for the discussion about F93 and the size of the debris field. No surprises here.

Anybody else?

[9/11-investigator]

They didn't. Where is the evidence they did? And please don't quote that article because it clearly says: 'Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scen'

Do I really have to explain the meaning of English words to an Englishman?

Do you really want to suggest that 'what appeared to be crash debris' really means: 'there certainly was no crash debris in the Lake'?

I'll help you to interprete your own language. Here we go again:

http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp

Finding the flight data recorder had been the focus of investigators as they widened their search area today following the discoveries of more debris, including what appeared to be human remains, miles from the point of impact at a reclaimed coal mine.

When we forget for a moment about the human remains the sentence reads:

Finding the flight data recorder had been the focus of investigators as they widened their search area today following the discoveries of more debris miles from the point of impact at a reclaimed coal mine.

I mean English is a very simple language. In fact the whole world uses the language. If you cannot grasp the meaning of the sentence I advise you to go back to primary school.

We continue with the article:

Workers at Indian Lake Marina said that they saw a cloud of confetti-like debris descend on the lake and nearby farms minutes after hearing the explosion that signaled the crash at 10:06 a.m. Tuesday.

Now try to explain that sentence to me without resorting to childish explanations like the Post Gazette being a Nazi newspaper.

Try to reconcile that observation with your assertion that F93 was still in 1 piece shortly before impact.

Patiently waiting...

[Crazytimes]

Flight 1771 ?

[9/11-investigator]

Flight 1771 ?

See your point. But shoot only the tail from F93 and you can have exactly the same effect of a plane speeding towards the ground full throttle and crashing with a speed of 700 mph totally obliterating the plane. But what YOU cannot explain is this:

http://www.flight93crash.com/MyPittsburghLIVE.htm
(link to original article is dead)

"All of a sudden the lights flickered and we joked that maybe they were coming for us. Then we heard engines screaming close overhead. The building shook. We ran out, heard the explosion and saw a fireball mushroom," said Fleegle, pointing to a clearing on a ridge at the far end of the lake.

Delasko, who ran outside moments later, said she thought someone had blown up a boat on the lake. "It just looked like confetti raining down all over the air above the lake," she said.
...

Fleegle said he climbed on the roof of an abandoned cabin and tossed down a burning seat cushion that had landed there.

By Wednesday morning, crash debris began washing ashore at the marina. Fleegle said there was something that looked like a rib bone amid pieces of seats, small chunks of melted plastic and checks.

Checks blowing in the wind ok, but pieces of seats? No way.

[PB2007]

OK. I got it wrong it was lightweight debris that could have been carried by the explosion from the plane crash. http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Indian_Lake

I'm clearly out of depth and I'll admit that, with not a hint of sarcasm. I think i contributed more to this site when i just lurked and STFU.

I really can't argue with people who resort to crap like

Now try to explain that sentence to me without resorting to childish explanations like the Post Gazette being a Nazi newspaper.

So you win 9/11 investigator...... :boxedin:

[9/11-investigator]

OK. I got it wrong it was lightweight debris that could have been carried by the explosion from the plane crash. http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Indian_Lake

I'm clearly out of depth and I'll admit that, with not a hint of sarcasm. I think i contributed more to this site when i just lurked and STFU.

So you win 9/11 investigator...... :boxedin:

OK, thanks.

Anybody else?

[sophia8]

4 big engines - 9,000 pounds each. That makes sense. Massive compared to the cockpit which is seen sitting on the ground in a large smashed section.

The large crater, or one large crater was caused by a wing with 200,000 pounds of fuel in it.
To be strictly accurate - the crater was made by the middle section of the plane, which was carrying both of the wing-mounted fuel tanks, plus all the combustible stuff in the several houses it landed on. At least one of the engines landed separately, a couple of streets away.

[beachnut]

To be strictly accurate - the crater was made by the middle section of the plane, which was carrying both of the wing-mounted fuel tanks, plus all the combustible stuff in the several houses it landed on. At least one of the engines landed separately, a couple of streets away.
Portions of the fuselage were striped away and the wings appear to be in one crater confirmed by finding certain wing bolts in the crater. The mass of the wing would cause a big crater and with 200,000 pounds of fuel a fire bigger than the 55,000 gallons or 66,000 gallons of fuel on 911 aircraft. But the smashed section of cockpit is visible because the rest of the plane did not pass through it into the ground. On 911 all the parts behind the nose section traveled to and through the nose section including people, seats, luggage, and the tail including the CVR and FDR when 93 impacted in one big piece into the found.

For the 911Truth delusion guys notice there are no parts that look like wings just like 93 in the crater.

The wings sections filled with fuel weighed more that flight 93.

[9/11-investigator]

Portions of the fuselage were striped away and the wings appear to be in one crater confirmed by finding certain wing bolts in the crater. The mass of the wing would cause a big crater and with 200,000 pounds of fuel a fire bigger than the 55,000 gallons or 66,000 gallons of fuel on 911 aircraft. But the smashed section of cockpit is visible because the rest of the plane did not pass through it into the ground. On 911 all the parts behind the nose section traveled to and through the nose section including people, seats, luggage, and the tail including the CVR and FDR when 93 impacted in one big piece into the found.

For the 911Truth delusion guys notice there are no parts that look like wings just like 93 in the crater.

The wings sections filled with fuel weighed more that flight 93.

Fine, wo cares? We want to explain why the plane came down in the first place.

Explain the observed debris rain over the lake a few minutes after the (main part of the) plane crashed as described a few posts earlier.

[beachnut]

Checks blowing in the wind ok, but pieces of seats? No way.
Pieces of seat fabric. Sorry, it was blown on the wind and you can't prove otherwise with your lack of diversity and failure to understand physics and wind. The wind on 911 at Flight 93's impact zone was exactly the direction to blow (the bone was not from 93 was it) the ashes and papers for miles. I had a plane pop on the ground from over-pressurization and it spewed insulation for a 1/4 mile with no wind.

I forgot, there is a lot of insulation of a plane which flew with the wind. What were the directions of the wind on 911 at 93 final resting place; got knowledge; or just delusions.

Winds on 911 for 93, surface and 1000 feet or so?

[9/11-investigator]

Pieces of seat fabric. Sorry, it was blown on the wind and you can't prove otherwise with your lack of diversity and failure to understand physics and wind. The wind on 911 at Flight 93's impact zone was exactly the direction to blow (the bone was not from 93 was it) the ashes and papers for miles. I had a plane pop on the ground from over-pressurization and it spewed insulation for a 1/4 mile with no wind.

I forgot, there is a lot of insulation of a plane which flew with the wind. What were the directions of the wind on 911 at 93 final resting place; got knowledge; or just delusions.

Winds on 911 for 93, surface and 1000 feet or so?

But nobody speaks of seat fabric. You are making it up as you go. But you are evading the essential question again:

Explain the observed debris rain over the lake a few minutes after the (main part of the) plane crashed as described a few posts earlier.

The expression was: "like confetti raining down".

This is not like pieces of paper whirling through the sky following the whims of the wind.

[beachnut]

But nobody speaks of seat fabric. You are making it up as you go. But you are evading the essential question again:

Explain the observed debris rain over the lake a few minutes after the (main part of the) plane crashed as described a few posts earlier.

The expression was: "like confetti raining down".

This is not like pieces of paper whirling through the sky following the whims of the wind.
Confetti is paper; sorry, you have no idea or evidence to support your lies and hearsay junk. You lost because you use lies to support your delusions.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=confetti+parade&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dconfetti%2Bparade%26imgsz%3Dxxlarge%2 6hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26um%3D1&imgurl=9fcaedca5bcc991a It floats on the wind.

Did you fail to look up the wind direction on 911 for the area around flight 93? You can't do research?

You have a delusions based on hearsay and internet lies. I have facts based on evidence and reality. For you to prove me wrong the winds on 911 at the impact of 93 would help you prove it was not the wind. This is logic you need to apply to your failed dirt dumb ideas so you can see they are pure poppycock.

You are setting your own traps when you say an expression like confetti when it was exactly like confetti raining down; exactly like paper and ashes and piece of burnt seats raining down just like confetti. This is super-thermite when you debunk yourself! Outstanding work you are a great hope for neoNAZIs all over the world.


Dirt dumb delusions - 473 posts
One failed 911Truth believer debunking his own post -
The expression was: "like confetti raining down". ...
Priceless

[Tbone]

The expression was: "like confetti raining down".

This is not like pieces of paper whirling through the sky following the whims of the wind.

That is exactly what confetti is.

[WildCat]

WildCat implicitly admits that (s)he has no arguments for the discussion about F93 and the size of the debris field. No surprises here.

Anybody else?
9/11-investigator shows he can't tell when truthers are being mocked.

[WildCat]

The expression was: "like confetti raining down".

This is not like pieces of paper whirling through the sky following the whims of the wind.
9/11-investigator, confetti is paper.

[9/11-investigator]

The witness does not say it was confetti, it said it was like confetti. And it was said that it was RAINING like confetti.

Now, patient as I am I'll explain it to you folks, slowly:

Here is a picture of rain:

http://weblogs.nos.nl/afrika/files/2009/03/rain.jpg

Now what do you guys notice?

Correct! The rain goes vertical, meaning from the sky to the ground. Very good! In that sense it is indeed like in that nice (while self-defeating) confetti picture you showed me during a tickerparade, which also goes from top to bottom.

Now beachnut wants us to believe that F93 came down in one piece, with Arabs and lets-rollers jerking at each others throat. Then BOOOM. Then all the suit cases are opened and all the stuff comes out and everything ripped to pieces and then there is a government loyalist wind that picks up all the light stuff like paper and blows it from the crash site in horizontal direction to the lake and then, magically all over sudden the wind turns direction and starts to blow vertically so that all the paper debris rains down like confetti from the sky. Just in a manner such that beachnut can keep telling dirt dumb stories.

Try again beachnut.

P.S. I am saying that it was the luggage and other small debris that truly rained from the sky after it had been blown away from the plane by the F16 from the 'Happy Hooligan' squadron the colonel, who is the hero of this thread, was talking about. But objects like trousers and underware fall at speeds of maybe max. 70 mph while the plane was diving at speeds of maybe 700 mph, so it took the luggage and other stuff a few minutes to rain towrds the earth.

[beachnut]

9/11-investigator, confetti is paper.
He was shot down and keeps posting it. Now it is rain.

[9/11-investigator]

He was shot down and keeps posting it. Now it is rain.

F93 was shot down causing debris high in the sky that falls down with speeds of say 70 mph, while the plane nose-dived towrds earth.

Your government loyalist scenario btw is treated here (http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_secondary_debris_field.html#2nd):

Theory 1 - It blew there (The NTSB/FBI Story).
Comment: Wind speed that day was 9 knots (or 10.4 MPH). Video from that morning shows a very light breeze.

The NTSB theory is that a lot of lightweight paper-like material survived the crash fireball and escaped the 35 foot deep, wet mud crash site and floated at 10 mph 2 - 8 miles over more wet, muddy fields. And how did clothing, books and large engine parts blow there again? And is there stuff 2 to 8 miles away at the Pentagon crash? Or another crash you can think of? Oh yea, at Lockerbie and Flight 800 there was (both had in-air explosions).

Remember, the debris is NOT continuous. They didn't even have a clue the secondary debris existed until phone calls from residents brought skeptical investigators looking. If this debris was heavier than feathers it would not have floated from an explosion the height of 600 feet to 11,000+ feet sideways. Even if it could, there would have been a continuous trail back to the crash with the heavier items falling first. Remember, all the debris at the crash crater bounced South and Southwest. The secondary debris is East in the direction of, and beyond, Indian Lake.

Indian Lake is where witnesses heard the airliner fly over, and saw debris falling from the sky moments after the crash. If the debris floated from the crash site, it would have taken 10-15 minutes at 10 mph to get there.

Debunked.

[fitzgibbon]

9/11-investigator,

Care to enlighten on what your mad skillz in physics would determine the terminal velocity of confetti to be?

[beachnut]

F93 was shot down causing debris high in the sky that falls down with speeds of say 70 mph, while the plane nose-dived towrds earth.

Your government loyalist scenario btw is treated here (http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_secondary_debris_field.html#2nd):

Theory 1 - It blew there (The NTSB/FBI Story).
Comment: Wind speed that day was 9 knots (or 10.4 MPH). Video from that morning shows a very light breeze.

The NTSB theory is that a lot of lightweight paper-like material survived the crash fireball and escaped the 35 foot deep, wet mud crash site and floated at 10 mph 2 - 8 miles over more wet, muddy fields. And how did clothing, books and large engine parts blow there again? And is there stuff 2 to 8 miles away at the Pentagon crash? Or another crash you can think of? Oh yea, at Lockerbie and Flight 800 there was (both had in-air explosions).

Remember, the debris is NOT continuous. They didn't even have a clue the secondary debris existed until phone calls from residents brought skeptical investigators looking. If this debris was heavier than feathers it would not have floated from an explosion the height of 600 feet to 11,000+ feet sideways. Even if it could, there would have been a continuous trail back to the crash with the heavier items falling first. Remember, all the debris at the crash crater bounced South and Southwest. The secondary debris is East in the direction of, and beyond, Indian Lake.

Indian Lake is where witnesses heard the airliner fly over, and saw debris falling from the sky moments after the crash. If the debris floated from the crash site, it would have taken 10-15 minutes at 10 mph to get there.

Debunked.
You just prove it was not shot down and the debris was paper. Good job.

Let me post the winds right here in a minute after I check the FDR found buried in the ground at the impact point.

[9/11-investigator]

9/11-investigator,

Care to enlighten on what your mad skillz in physics would determine the terminal velocity of confetti to be?

A lot less than 70 mph.

Your point?

[9/11-investigator]

You just prove it was not shot down and the debris was paper. Good job.

Your point escapes me, probably because there is no point, but thanks for the compliment anyway.

Let me post the winds right here in a minute after I check the FDR found buried in the ground at the impact point.

Do you need a spade?

[beachnut]

Your point escapes me, probably because there is no point, but thanks for the compliment anyway.



Do you need a spade?Your post proved 93 was in one piece when it impacted the ground; just like the FDR.


Checked the wind speed you were wrong.

Try again. What was the direction in degrees true, and speed in knots. State the altitude and source.

[9/11-investigator]

Your post proved 93 was in one piece when it impacted the ground; just like the FDR.

Lets state in what we agree upon... According to witnesses:

All of a sudden the lights flickered and we joked that maybe they were coming for us. Then we heard engines screaming close overhead.

I'm willing to accept as a possibility that the plane came down at very high speed because the engines were still functioning. But that does not mean that the plane was not shot down. I am not an aviation expert but I can imagine that a plane is hit at the tail by a rocket but that the larger part of the plane spirals down with the engines still functioning and propelling the plane. This could explain the debris field with the very fractured plane pieces as you guys describe.

Checked the wind speed you were wrong.

Try again. What was the direction in degree true, and speed in knots.

I am not going to participate in a quiz. Tell me if you know the answer + source or leave it.

[UNLoVedRebel]

I'm willing to accept as a possibility that the plane came down at very high speed because the engines were still functioning. But that does not mean that the plane was not shot down. I am not an aviation expert but I can imagine that a plane is hit at the tail by a rocket but that the larger part of the plane spirals down with the engines still functioning and propelling the plane. This could explain the debris field with the very fractured plane pieces as you guys describe.

You're right. You're not an aviation expert.

[9/11-investigator]

http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_secondary_debris_field.html#2nd

The secondary (and tertiary) debris fields:

The Pennsylvania state police said debris from the crash has shown up about 8 miles away in a residential area where local media quoted some residents as seeing flaming debris from the sky.

This is completely at odds with your 'stuff blowing in the wind' scenario. A piece of paper does burn for a few seconds, not for 8 miles. Flaming debris from the sky means debris from an airplane that was shot.

[9/11-investigator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZekosYOmXc

Fox News rare F93 footage, never shown again.

The Fox reporter speaks of a debris field with a radius of 3-4 miles.

[beachnut]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZekosYOmXc

Fox News rare F93 footage, never shown again.

The Fox reporter speaks of a debris field with a radius of 3-4 miles.
Good old cherry-picking in the orchard of delusions. Great job

What was the wind and the source for the numbers you have?

New reports are so correct; good job

You can't find real facts so you cherry-pick delusions from any source you can find.

Found those winds yet where the debris blew from the impact sight.

With time from impact to time of seeing the "confetti" we have proof it was the wind. but you are too challenged to investigation and real research you post lies.

When did the burnt papers land 8 miles away? Need some help?

You have the wrong wind speed. You got it from a site of an idiot on 911 issues. Good job finding woo and delusions.

[AJM8125]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZekosYOmXc

Fox News rare F93 footage, never shown again.

The Fox reporter speaks of a debris field with a radius of 3-4 miles.

QrT6joi4gco

Notice any similarities?

[beachnut]

.. (http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_secondary_debris_field.html#2nd)
The Pennsylvania state police said debris from the crash has shown up about 8 miles away in a residential area where local media quoted some residents as seeing flaming debris from the sky.
....
OOPS, you have no source; you have Internet hearsay cherry-picked in the orchard of delusion.

Source; and photos of the flaming debris. Got the real wind speed yet at altitude that day and times for this flaming debris falling?

Got facts?

You have the wrong wind speed and now resort to failed cherry-picking for your delusions.

[BigAl]

Lets state in what we agree upon... According to witnesses:

All of a sudden the lights flickered and we joked that maybe they were coming for us. Then we heard engines screaming close overhead.

I'm willing to accept as a possibility that the plane came down at very high speed because the engines were still functioning.

When something, a bird or a missile hits an airplane, the data and voice recorders tell us what happened in rather great detail.

The recorders show no such impacts or damage on Flight 93.

[Reheat]

Hay, 911-investigator,

I've got radar plots and ATC communications tapes that show where all of the Happy Hooligans were around the time of UA 93's crash. If you'll give me a cut of your Court Case and your Pulitzer Price I'll share them with you! :D


ETA: I've used up my supply of Laughing Dogs tonight!

[9/11-investigator]

Here is a review I found for one of the books written by the colonel:

This is Donn de Grand Pre's explosive book Barbarians Inside the Gates (http://www.amazon.com/Barbarians-Inside-Gates-Vipers-Venom/dp/096643742X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242136452&sr=8-2) 1 - The Black Book of Bolshevism - The Serpent's Sting (2000) which exposes the unindicted criminal politicians with a fanatical will to power who are wedded to international financial oligarchs with absolutely no scruples. These modern-day barbarians have seized the critical levers of power and are straining the ultimate brass ring - a global government of absolute despotism under their domain. What is their battle plan? Destroy the US constitution, disarm the citizen, collapse the economy, introduce the Police State? Will Israel trigger WWIII? The ongoing game plan is to suck the US military once more into the battle for control of the Middle East as the surrogates of Israel. Are we on the eve of a bloody revolution and martial law in the United States of America or will it be World War III? The barbarians are not at the gates, they are inside the gates - and have academic tenure, judicial appointments, government grants, and control of the movies, television, and other media. The question of the hour - and of the next century - is whether all this can be turned around. Colonel Donn de Grand Pré, a former Pentagon arms salesman, was disillusioned with US government’s course, both at home and abroad. As he exited Washington he began an intensive program of research which slowly unmasked a deadly "Bolshevik" peril to our Republic - "hidden Barbarians" already inside the gates, an enemy totally dedicated to the destruction of american sovereignty as a nation-state and the enslavement or extermination of all who might block their plans for World domination. Barbarians Inside the Gates will give you the chills when you'll find out who is really in charge of this crazy world. 435 pages. A must read for everyone.

Unbelievable, this was written before 9/11.

- Destroy the US constitution: Patriot Act (was written well before 9/11); in fact 9/11 was intended to destroy the consitution at home and initiate foreign wars - check
- disarm the citizen: all the signals from Washington are that they want to restrict the constitutional right to bear arms - check
- collapse the economy: no comments necessary - check
- introduce the Police State: in full progress - check
- Will Israel trigger WWIII: if it's up to them, yes, pressing for war against Iran. Types like Soros organizing color coded revolutions in Ukraine, Georgia. Sending American battle ships to the Black See to threaten Russia, pushing for placement of rockets in Poland - check
- The ongoing game plan is to suck the US military once more into the battle for control of the Middle East as the surrogates of Israel: the neocons achieved this using 9/11 as a pretext - check

The colonel is a visionary.

Breach of rule 12 removed.

[ElMondoHummus]

This is all useless obsfucation. Col. de Grand-Pre's allegation of a shootdown was directly refuted by a government official who rode with the pilot (Lt. Col. Rick Gibney ) de Grand-Pre claims actually performed the shootdown. Furthermore, FDR and CVR data is entirely inconsistent with a damaged jet. On top of that, the spread of the debris field is also not surprising; a "shot down" airliner should leave a line, not a radial spread of debris.

There is nothing here but elements separated from context. The entire weight of the evidence points towards a hijacker controlled flight into the ground, not a shootdown plot. Any other points brought up must account for the ATC radar data and FDR at minimum. Quotemines and unsupported links to conspiratorial websites do not achieve that level of proof, not by a long shot.

[peteweaver]

Fine, wo cares? We want to explain why the plane came down in the first place.

It was hijacked by terrorists intent on using it as a kamikaze weapon, they chose to crash it as the passengers had fought back.

Explain the observed debris rain over the lake a few minutes after the (main part of the) plane crashed as described a few posts earlier.


Your evidence for "observed debris rain over the lake" ?

[HawksFan]

I'm sorry, but this caught my eye. How many battleships did we send to the Black See (sic)?

Oh yeah, and when does that police state kick in? I'm not seeing any evidence of it here.

[lapman]

- Destroy the US constitution: Patriot Act (was written well before 9/11); in fact 9/11 was intended to destroy the consitution at home and initiate foreign wars - checkFalse. The constitution is still there and you are writing on this forum which also proves how wrong you are.

- disarm the citizen: all the signals from Washington are that they want to restrict the constitutional right to bear arms - checkI know plenty of people with guns and the gun shops are open. Wrong again.

- collapse the economy: no comments necessary - checkNot collapsed. People are still out there shopping. Fail

- introduce the Police State: in full progress - checkYou and the rest of the twoofers are still alive. Fail

- Will Israel trigger WWIII: if it's up to them, yes, pressing for war against Iran. Types like Soros organizing color coded revolutions in Ukraine, Georgia. Sending American battle ships to the Black See to threaten Russia, pushing for placement of rockets in Poland - checkNot happening. Fail

- The ongoing game plan is to suck the US military once more into the battle for control of the Middle East as the surrogates of Israel: the neocons achieved this using 9/11 as a pretext - checkWrong again. Fail. Showing yourself to be an anti-semite. Check

[beachnut]

Here is a review I found for one of the books written by the colonel:

This is Donn de Grand Pre's explosive book Barbarians Inside the Gates (http://www.amazon.com/Barbarians-Inside-Gates-Vipers-Venom/dp/096643742X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242136452&sr=8-2) 1 -

The colonel is a visionary.
...
They are easy recognizable: always accusing their opponents of being a 'Nazi', a 'racist', a 'bigot', the complete SPLC/ADL vocabulary, hell bent on destroying western nations with their agenda of mass immigration.
The book is fiction contains zero evidence; like your posts.

Your posts make it too easy to label your biased character. You can't pick a single conclusion in the book of fiction from the dumbest 911Truth book writer save DRG. Pre's idea on 911 leave no doubt his is a top dolt of 911Truth.

[dudalb]

False. The constitution is still there and you are writing on this forum which also proves how wrong you are.
I know plenty of people with guns and the gun shops are open. Wrong again.
Not collapsed. People are still out there shopping. Fail
You and the rest of the twoofers are still alive. Fail
Not happening. Fail
Wrong again. Fail. Showing yourself to be an anti-semite. Check

You made one mistake: 9/11 Investigator showed himself to be an Anti Semite a long time ago, in fact from the first day he posted on jREF. He has increased his efforts lately, probably to fill the gap made by the apparent departure of MaGZ.

[dudalb]

The book is fiction contains zero evidence; like your posts.

Your posts make it too easy to label your biased character. You can't pick a single conclusion in the book of fiction from the dumbest 911Truth book writer save DRG. Pre's idea on 911 leave no doubt his is a top dolt of 911Truth.
And in "The Jews Did It" subsection of 9/11 Truth; the scummiest of the lot.

[9/11-investigator]

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd173.htm

A few months after I returned, I had a lengthy phone conversation with one of my dearest friends, Brigadier General Ben Partin, U.S.A.F. (Ret). Ben is no conspiracy whacko (bio here) and is one of the most decent, honorable people I've ever had the honor of knowing. When I brought up this issue, Ben said that not too long ago he was at a luncheon for retired military officers and Col. Donn de Grand-Pre was there; he also said that he had known Col. de Grand-Pre for twenty years and never knew him to lie about anything. Ben asked Col. de Grand-Pre face to face about the shoot down of Flight 93 and the response was: Yes, he interviewed the pilot who shot down Flight 93 and there's no question whatsoever that Flight 93 was deliberately shot down in a no win situation.

The colonel gets a very good reference from a general no less and on top of that one with a name. Somehow I attach more credibility to that than that derived from smears uttered by anonymous government loyalists, like our analist beachnut who likes to call the colonel 'the dumbest 911Truth book writer save DRG'.

P.S. thanks to ElMondoHummus for providing he name of the pilot that shot down F93. Did not know that one.

[9/11-investigator]

And in "The Jews Did It" subsection of 9/11 Truth; the scummiest of the lot.

So you call the ex-president of Italy scum? Marvellous.

Question to dudalb: why is it not scummy to accuse Arabs but is it scummy to accuse Israelis? What's the difference? Are Israelis better than Arabs? Would you not agree that in the end evidence and not race/religion should be the deciding factor?

And in that light: can you point to a 'dancing Arabs' event?

Thanks in advance.

P.S. style tip: try to reduce the usage of the word 'anti-semitism' to 50% rather than the 75% in your posts. After all we are discussing the good colonel here, not your personal hobby horse.

[9/11-investigator]

This is all useless obsfucation. Col. de Grand-Pre's allegation of a shootdown was directly refuted by a government official who rode with the pilot (Lt. Col. Rick Gibney ) de Grand-Pre claims actually performed the shootdown.

That settles it then. If a government official says that the pilot did not shoot down F93, than that is decided for all eternity.

Eh wait, if the government official had not said that, then the government would have been exposed as a liar. Can't have that. Careers, mortages and stuff.

It would be interesting to hear the pilot himself about it. I bet that he is told to keep his mouth shut.

This pilot should be the first person to be interrogated by an independent commission.

[ElMondoHummus]

I was pointing out that a witness to Gibney's whereabouts confirms he was not involved in any shootdown. Add that to the fact that the FDR and CVR contradict the notion of a shootdown, and the fact that the heavy debris was relatively close to the impact point - something testified to by first responders - then you have a story that points away from a shootdown.

It's a weak argument to write off one person's testimony because he works for the government, especially when the witness in question works for a state, not the federal government (Jacoby is the director of the New York State Emergency Management Office). Unless you want to argue that a bureau of the NY State government is somehow in on the plot, something for which you have zero evidence for. As a matter of fact, you have zero evidence for writing off a statement from the pilot's passenger, as well as zero evidence for saying that they lied and had their jobs threatened. I can make up stuff too, but I don't pass it off as truth, so I'll chalk that up as a standard truther fail in this thread.

Why don't you try to deal with the fact that someone testified that Gibney was nowhere near FL93, something supported by the ATC radar data which puts no aircraft in the vicinity of that flight? I mean... facts and evidence... they're a bitch, ain't they? Too bad ignoring them sinks your argument.

Someone wake me when and if 9/11-I ever presents a factual rebuttal.

[9/11-investigator]

This is all useless obsfucation. Col. de Grand-Pre's allegation of a shootdown was directly refuted by a government official who rode with the pilot (Lt. Col. Rick Gibney )

Gibney was provided an alibi (?) because it was claimed that he 'rode' this official to New York.

According to inforwars (http://www.infowars.com/print/Sept11/93_shootdown.htm):

He was awarded a medal from the Governor one year later for his heroic actions. As well as Decorated by Congress on 9/13/2001.

So what did he get this medal for... for his excellent air taxi services?

Not very likely. He must have received it for something bigger (and as an enticement to remain silent?)

[dudalb]

So you call the ex-president of Italy scum? Marvellous.

Question to dudalb: why is it not scummy to accuse Arabs but is it scummy to accuse Israelis? What's the difference? Are Israelis better than Arabs? Would you not agree that in the end evidence and not race/religion should be the deciding factor?

And in that light: can you point to a 'dancing Arabs' event?

Thanks in advance.

P.S. style tip: try to reduce the usage of the word 'anti-semitism' to 50% rather than the 75% in your posts. After all we are discussing the good colonal here, not your personal hobby horse.


Because there is solid evidence that Islamic Extremists did it, and none that the Jews did it, except in the minds of bigots.

[ElMondoHummus]

Gibney was provided an alibi (?) because it was claimed that he 'rode' this official to New York.

According to inforwars (http://www.infowars.com/print/Sept11/93_shootdown.htm):

He was awarded a medal from the Governor one year later for his heroic actions. As well as Decorated by Congress on 9/13/2001.

So what did he get this medal for... for his excellent air taxi services?

Not very likely. He must have received it for something bigger (and as an enticement to remain silent?)

Oh, please. That's your rebuttal? He got a medal? Therefore he must've done something else??

Again, zero proof. This doesn't even rise to the level of good mud slinging. It's just pathetic. You have no idea if this was a high level decoration or just a "was in service" medal, and that's even presuming the medal was awarded for the "taxi" service he provided on 9/11, which is not made clear. You need to research "medal inflation" and report back to us the significance of this award he got. Because you clearly do not know, you are merely trying to link the award to some disproven - not unproven, but disproven i.e. refuted - shootdown myth. In the face of all the other evidence, such as the FDR indicating a properly functional aircraft all the way into the ground, the CVR being devoid of any explosions, the radar data showing no other aircraft in the area, and the heavy debris (engine parts, larger pieces of the airframe) and human remains being relatively close to the impact zone you present... a medal.

Again, people, wake me when he presents a factual rebuttal. One that actually addresses the evidence, that is.

[9/11-investigator]

I was pointing out that a witness to Gibney's whereabouts confirms he was not involved in any shootdown.

What I can find about Jacoby is that it is Popular Mechanics who makes that statement in the name of Jacoby. Can you produce a pointer to where Jacoby says so himself? Popular Mechanics has a very bad uhhh... press in truther circles, with good reason.

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/gopm/index.html

Add that to the fact that the FDR and CVR contradict the notion of a shootdown, and the fact that the heavy debris was relatively close to the impact point - something testified to by first responders - then you have a story that points away from a shootdown.

Has been discussed in this thread. It does not matter whether a plane storms towards the earth with or without a tail (in the latter case after being shot in the tail); it will result in the same primary debris field. It is the (existence of a) secondary and tertiary debris fields that undermine the official story; FDR and CVR have been researched by the party who is under suspicion (in the eyes of the truthers).

It's a weak argument to write off one person's testimony because he works for the government, especially when the witness in question works for a state, not the federal government (Jacoby is the director of the New York State Emergency Management Office). Unless you want to argue that a bureau of the NY State government is somehow in on the plot, something for which you have zero evidence for.

You have yet to produce evidence that it was Jacoby himself who stated as such rather than PM.

On the other hand I have a high-ranking officer who says he spoke to the pilot. Why would he lie? It takes persona courage to stand up to the government, no gain is to be expected from such a move, except honor and self respect.

I mean... facts and evidence... they're a bitch, ain't they? Too bad ignoring them sinks your argument.

I was about to say that myself. :D

[9/11-investigator]

Because there is solid evidence that Islamic Extremists did it, and none that the Jews did it, except in the minds of bigots.

The idea of this forum is to give space to opposing views to meet and exchange arguments, in a 'friendly manner' as the forum rules prescribe and not to endlessly repeat preconceived ideas that originate from your background.

Hate mongering and name calling ('neonazi') is not friendly and might lead to the suspicion that the opponent has no arguments.

[parky76]

Hate mongering and name calling ('neonazi') is not friendly and might lead to the suspicion that the opponent has no arguments.

for the most part, these terms are used to accurately describe people who fit these descriptions. if the shoe fits...

[9/11-investigator]

for the most part, these terms are used to accurately describe people who fit these descriptions. if the shoe fits...

No it is not accurate, it is being used by you and dudalb as a smear word to defame. The reason why you used the word is because I said that I was against mass immigration to the Netherlands. But that does not qualify to be called a 'Neonazi'. Most people in America are deep in their harts opposed to mass immigration as well. It does not make sense to qualify them therefore as Nazi's. And what new is, is that the accusation will come back to the accuser as a boomerang. The question will be asked: from what perspective is this person making this accusation?

And an answer is quickly found.

[parky76]

No it is not accurate, it is being used by you and dudalb as a smear word to defame. The reason why you used the word .

please quote for me where I have ever called you a "neo-nazi".

[ElMondoHummus]

What I can find about Jacoby is that it is Popular Mechanics who makes that statement in the name of Jacoby. Can you produce a pointer to where Jacoby says so himself? Popular Mechanics has a very bad uhhh... press in truther circles, with good reason.

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/gopm/index.html


Mother of God, you're now trying to rebut the statement by complaining about who reported it? At the same time that you forward Infowars sites as evidence? You can't be serious. It doesn't matter what truther circles say about Pop Mech, it matters what the evidence is. And you've provided zero evidence that the statement was not made.

And the last rebuttal you want to point to is Jim Hoffman's. You cannot combat factual information with disproven canards and repetition of myths.


Has been discussed in this thread. It does not matter whether a plane storms towards the earth with or without a tail (in the latter case after being shot in the tail); it will result in the same primary debris field. It is the (existence of a) secondary and tertiary debris fields that undermine the official story; FDR and CVR have been researched by the party who is under suspicion (in the eyes of the truthers).


Your statement about debris field patterns are bunk. The human remains were found within a relatively small area; so were heavy pieces like the engines. Lighter debris was what was found far away. This is entirely inconsistent with a shootdown. Besides which, you provide zero evidence that the jet was missing its tail! Hell, you provide only one piece of evidence that a jet was in the area at all - de Grand-Pre's statement - and cannot explain the lack of any radar data supporting this, as well as the lack of witness sightings of a missile!

Furthermore, you cannot cast aspersions on the FDR and CVR evidence in such a facile and unsupported manner. The data is entirely consistent with the ATC radar data, as well as the debris. The radar data shows no jets in the area, the FDR demonstrates a fully functional jet, and the CVR has no sounds of explosions or plane disintegration. Try addressing the evidence from here on out. You're not. You're hiding behind weak, unsupported accusations. You want to demonstrate that the FDR is "suspicous"? Show how the information gathered from it contradicts what's known about the flight from the radar data, for example. Show how elements of the data are incorrect, or impossible for the aircraft. If you can't, you have zero rebuttal to the evidence.


You have yet to produce evidence that it was Jacoby himself who stated as such rather than PM.

On the other hand I have a high-ranking officer who says he spoke to the pilot. Why would he lie? It takes persona courage to stand up to the government, no gain is to be expected from such a move, except honor and self respect.


You have an unsupported quote that is flatly contradicted by the rest of the evidence, as well as a quote from a person who's hearing it secondhand from a suspect source and making an opinion about the truthfulness of the source. That's not proof. The source for that general's claim has been refuted by not only a witness, but by electronic evidence as well. We're not even getting into the physical evidence yet, and we already have all we need to demonstrate that de Grand-Pre's statement is false, regardless of who vouches for him. Even if that general believes de Grand-Pre is telling the truth, that does not overcome the weight of the physical and electronic evidence. His belief does not negate real evidence; it is only a belief. Your argument is insufficient as a rebuttal.


I was about to say that myself. :D

Go ahead. Repeat it. We'll agree then that the weight of the evidence sinks your argument. It's about time you realized that yourself.

[16.5]

The idea of this forum is to give space to opposing views to meet and exchange arguments, in a 'friendly manner' as the forum rules prescribe and not to endlessly repeat preconceived ideas that originate from your background.

Then maybe you can try to stop citing endlessly to Truther sites.

[beachnut]

...
The colonel is a visionary.

Breach of rule 12 removed.
His book is based on his delusion.

[9/11-investigator]

Mother of God, you're now trying to rebut the statement by complaining about who reported it? At the same time that you forward Infowars sites as evidence? You can't be serious. It doesn't matter what truther circles say about Pop Mech, it matters what the evidence is. And you've provided zero evidence that the statement was not made.

I'm not using the word evidence, but you and I are advocates for 2 different causes proposing arguments to support our resp. causes. You have your PM statement, I have the statements of the colonel in person and statements that Gibney was decorated. Regarding the identity of Gibney: on the morning of 9/11 everything was in a rush. A pilot lands in Bozeman, taxis to the tarmac where Jacoby is waiting. There is no time for Jacoby and the pilot to drink coffee and exchange business cards because of the emergency situation, maybe the pilot does not even lift his helmet. Jacoby does not know the pilot, he just steps in and blasts off. In Albany the same story. The identity of the pilot is for Jacoby at that moment completely irrelevant, comparable to that of a taxi driver who brings you from a hotel to the airport: you don't ask for his name, you just tell him where you want to go to. So PM can simply say what they want.

Your statement about debris field patterns are bunk. The human remains were found within a relatively small area; so were heavy pieces like the engines.

Earlier in the thread I pointed to a MSM article that spoke of 'what appeared to be human remains' found miles from the point of impact.

Lighter debris was what was found far away. This is entirely inconsistent with a shootdown. Besides which, you provide zero evidence that the jet was missing its tail!

I did not say I have evidence, I'm just giving a possible explanation.

Hell, you provide only one piece of evidence that a jet was in the area at all - de Grand-Pre's statement - and cannot explain the lack of any radar data supporting this, as well as the lack of witness sightings of a missile!

There are many eyewitnesses that report the presence of 1 or more additional planes. Your own PM article (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=7#whitejet) which you forward as evidence confirms the presence of a second plane!!

There was such a jet in the vicinity — a Dassault Falcon 20 business jet owned by the VF Corp. of Greensboro, N.C., ... The VF plane was flying into Johnstown-Cambria airport, 20 miles north of Shanksville. According to David Newell, VF's director of aviation and travel, the FAA's Cleveland Center contacted copilot Yates Gladwell when the Falcon was at an altitude "in the neighborhood of 3000 to 4000 ft." — not 34,000 ft. "They were in a descent already going into Johnstown," Newell adds. "The FAA asked them to investigate and they did. They got down within 1500 ft. of the ground when they circled. They saw a hole in the ground with smoke coming out of it. They pinpointed the location and then continued on

So either your radar statement is bunk or PM is bunk. You might consider the possibility they both are bunk.

Furthermore, you cannot cast aspersions on the FDR and CVR evidence in such a facile and unsupported manner.

Yes I can. The government was engaged in cover ups all the time like with the hasty removal of WTC-evidence.

[Foolmewunz]

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd173.htm

A few months after I returned, I had a lengthy phone conversation with one of my dearest friends, Brigadier General Ben Partin, U.S.A.F. (Ret). Ben is no conspiracy whacko (bio here) and is one of the most decent, honorable people I've ever had the honor of knowing. When I brought up this issue, Ben said that not too long ago he was at a luncheon for retired military officers and Col. Donn de Grand-Pre was there; he also said that he had known Col. de Grand-Pre for twenty years and never knew him to lie about anything. Ben asked Col. de Grand-Pre face to face about the shoot down of Flight 93 and the response was: Yes, he interviewed the pilot who shot down Flight 93 and there's no question whatsoever that Flight 93 was deliberately shot down in a no win situation.

The colonel gets a very good reference from a general no less and on top of that one with a name. Somehow I attach more credibility to that than that derived from smears uttered by anonymous government loyalists, like our analist beachnut who likes to call the colonel 'the dumbest 911Truth book writer save DRG'.

P.S. thanks to ElMondoHummus for providing he name of the pilot that shot down F93. Did not know that one.


And you're nickname includes "Investigator"?

Fail.

"General" Partin? Really? Jeff Rense's favorite interviewee? He stands up for the integrity of Colonel Dom?

Maybe you could get him to post some of his credentials here. That'd be interesting for the military folks to look at.

And you might want to check into some of Colonel Dom's history while you're at it. Seems that a lot of his purported career details cannot be verified.

You've posted, as supporting evidence for an internet blowhard, the word of an internet blowhard.

Great work.

[beachnut]

The dumb statement contest is a constant event for 911Truth cult members; dump any old standard dumb statement that makes no sense if you were to do the math, research, or physics associated with the statement.

Yes I can. The government was engaged in cover ups all the time like with the hasty removal of WTC-evidence.

"Yes I can" - means no they can't. Simple 911Truth logic.

Cover-ups all the time is not sourced and a dumb statement without need to explain since the author offered zero evidence.

"hasty removal of WTC-evidence" is one hint 911Truth is math challenged.

Hasty - means 8 months. Standard 911Truth logic.

The better truer statement would be:
No I can't. The government was engaged in cover ups all the time but I don't have a source or any examples right now; wait let me try this one! like 8 months of removal of WTC-evidence.

hasty - means 8 months in 911Truth delusion-land.


If you use 911Truth logic you will love Pre's book of woo; 911Truth standard of logic is the only logic used by Col de Grand Pre in doing his book!

[ElMondoHummus]

I'm not using the word evidence, but you and I are advocates for 2 different causes proposing arguments to support our resp. causes. You have your PM statement, I have the statements of the colonel in person and statements that Gibney was decorated. Regarding the identity of Gibney: on the morning of 9/11 everything was in a rush. A pilot lands in Bozeman, taxis to the tarmac where Jacoby is waiting. There is no time for Jacoby and the pilot to drink coffee and exchange business cards because of the emergency situation, maybe the pilot does not even lift his helmet. Jacoby does not know the pilot, he just steps in and blasts off. In Albany the same story. The identity of the pilot is for Jacoby at that moment completely irrelevant, comparable to that of a taxi driver who brings you from a hotel to the airport: you don't ask for his name, you just tell him where you want to go to. So PM can simply say what they want.


So in other words, you still have no proof for your allegation that PM did not tell the truth. The best you can do is spin a tale.

Fail.


Earlier in the thread I pointed to a MSM article that spoke of 'what appeared to be human remains' found miles from the point of impact.


And you ignore the Somerset County Coroner's report that this was not so, that they were entirely contained within acres of the impact zone. It's one thing to put up an unverified claim, it's another to ignore the final word of the area coroner.


I did not say I have evidence, I'm just giving a possible explanation.


No kidding. You have no evidence for any of your claims. No basis either.


There are many eyewitnesses that report the presence of 1 or more additional planes. Your own PM article (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=7#whitejet) which you forward as evidence confirms the presence of a second plane!!

There was such a jet in the vicinity — a Dassault Falcon 20 business jet owned by the VF Corp. of Greensboro, N.C., ... The VF plane was flying into Johnstown-Cambria airport, 20 miles north of Shanksville. According to David Newell, VF's director of aviation and travel, the FAA's Cleveland Center contacted copilot Yates Gladwell when the Falcon was at an altitude "in the neighborhood of 3000 to 4000 ft." — not 34,000 ft. "They were in a descent already going into Johnstown," Newell adds. "The FAA asked them to investigate and they did. They got down within 1500 ft. of the ground when they circled. They saw a hole in the ground with smoke coming out of it. They pinpointed the location and then continued on

So either your radar statement is bunk or PM is bunk. You might consider the possibility they both are bunk.


After FL93 went down! After! Find me evidence the jet was there at a time they could have supposedly shot FL93 down! VF Corporation's jet wasn't even vectored towards the crash site until after the crash!

And how's a business class jet supposed to carry missiles?


Yes I can. The government was engaged in cover ups all the time like with the hasty removal of WTC-evidence.

This is what I mean by "no evidence". Empty, unsupported accusations do not cut it. If you want to find people who distrust government, you'll find plenty here, including me, but that doesn't mean you can get away with unsupported allegations.

Show us the evidence. Quit hiding behind empty, unsupported accusations. The fact of the matter is, you have zero evidence that the FDR and CVR data is anything but accurate; you merely dispute its findings because they are fatal to your belief. Time for basic reading on your part:

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93page1
http://www.911myths.com/html/flight_93.html
http://tinyurl.com/fl93-shanksville

Until you can actually back up your claims, until you can actually address evidence with something other than allegations, there's nothing further to discuss.

[ElMondoHummus]

And you're nickname includes "Investigator"?

Fail.

"General" Partin? Really? Jeff Rense's favorite interviewee? He stands up for the integrity of Colonel Dom?

Maybe you could get him to post some of his credentials here. That'd be interesting for the military folks to look at.

And you might want to check into some of Colonel Dom's history while you're at it. Seems that a lot of his purported career details cannot be verified.

You've posted, as supporting evidence for an internet blowhard, the word of an internet blowhard.

Great work.

Good Lord, you're right. All the results so far for Ben Partin are truther sites... and not just on 9/11 too. There's a bunch of links to Oklahoma City bombing woo as well.

Yeah. This is a reliable source... riiiiiiiight... :rolleyes:

[WildCat]

According to inforwars (http://www.infowars.com/print/Sept11/93_shootdown.htm):
:dl:

Seriously, wtf is up with the truthers automatically taking the opposite of the "official story"?

According to truthers, there was a "standown order" for the other 3 hijacked flights but Flight 93 was shot down.

There are no words to describe how absolutely asinine this is.

[9/11-investigator]

Here is the video (http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-7468344798529291274&ei=yF0LSsTKNcHB-AaeqJ2bBQ&q=911+flight+93+rare+footage&hl=nl) with a ceremony where pilot Gibney receives a medal for 'extra ordinary services'. According to the colonel it was this pilot who shot down flight 93.

15:54 (person in the middle group of 5) shows Gibney.

Can somebody explain to me why Gibney should receive a medal for taxi services?

[9/11-investigator]

:dl:

Seriously, wtf is up with the truthers automatically taking the opposite of the "official story"?

According to truthers, there was a "standown order" for the other 3 hijacked flights but Flight 93 was shot down.

There are no words to describe how absolutely asinine this is.

According to some the shooting down of flight 93 was a decision taken by a local commander. The colonel earlier stated likewise.

Keyword: Elizabeth Nelson, interview april 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8RZ4UzlKvg&feature=PlayList&p=5FCDAFDBC318146C&index=0&playnext=1).

[UNLoVedRebel]

Here is the video (http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-7468344798529291274&ei=yF0LSsTKNcHB-AaeqJ2bBQ&q=911+flight+93+rare+footage&hl=nl) with a ceremony where pilot Gibney receives a medal for 'extra ordinary services'. According to the colonel it was this pilot who shot down flight 93.

15:54 (person in the middle group of 5) shows Gibney.

Can somebody explain to me why Gibney should receive a medal for taxi services?

We've gone over this several times.

FYI: Before you go off spamming the first infowar article you come across, Alex Jones has a "never blame the Jews" rule. He's strictly a blame the Anglo-Saxons conspiracy theorist. He's the one who made the infamous "Arabs own Hollywood" remark.

ETA: check out the warning Jones's daughters--the idiots at LCF--put on their forum.

Due to demand from users, a section detailing the Israeli Mossad's possible involvement in 9/11 has been created. This section will not tolerate blanket assumptions such as "the jews did it", nor will there be any tolerance shown for 'jew hating'. There will also be NO tolerance shown to any Holocaust Denial. The section will be heavily moderated to ensure, as much as possible, no offense (and thus flaming) be taken by anyone. There will be a three strikes policy. Warning > Suspension > Banning. Likewise, there will be no tolerance shown to general accusations of anti-semitism towards users who offer credible information regarding Israeli govt/Mossad crimes.

Thank you.
Loose Change Admin Staff

And the resident JREF holocaust denier is spamming infowars. :wackyrolleyes:

[ElMondoHummus]

Can somebody explain to me why Gibney should receive a medal for taxi services?

Still haven't bothered to look up "medal inflation", have you??


“Air Medals are handed out like candy, and the vast majority of enlisted people aren’t eligible for them,” said a nonflying major in the Reserves, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to comment on the issue.

Rated officers and enlisted aircrew who fly 20 or more combat missions receive Air Medals.

... “You’re basically doing your job as a pilot and being recognized for it with a decoration,” said the pilot, also granted anonymity. “It’s maybe not necessary, especially when you compare it to guys who are doing their job on the ground but aren’t getting recognized. I think there is a disparity there.”

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/02/airforce_medals_021509/

This example isn't about the Air Force, but it does demonstrate the problem of awarding medals too liberally:

Still, Mr. Garavelli remembers being dumbfounded when he learned in the 1980's that the Army was presenting all new soldiers with a decoration called the Army Service Ribbon. "That one really turned my stomach," he said. According to Army regulations, the ribbon goes "to members of the regular U.S. Army, Army National Guard and Army Reserve to indicate the successful completion of initial entry training."

"Boot camp, in other words," Mr. Garavelli said. "Now we're giving awards for boot camp."


Want more? Google for it. Truthers are good at that, although you all tend to miss the substantive information in favor of the incredible. Still, though, the information is out there; you can find it on your own. But the point is that, you can ask rhetorical questions about "taxi service" all you want, but medals have been awarded for far less.

While you're at it, you managed to actually link the medal to this supposed shootdown yet? Because, like I said before, all you seem to even try to present are unfounded allegations, not hard facts or actual evidence. A pilot being awarded a medal for ferrying an emergency offical cross country to respond to one of the biggest emergencies in history is certainly silly, but it's orders of magnitude more credible a proposal than one for a supposed shootdown that somehow occurred without leaving credible evidence.

Evidence. Not allegations. You've already been told this. Present evidence if you want people to take you seriously. An awards ceremony is not evidence.

[Reheat]

I don't believe Gibney got an Air Medal. I don't know what Medal he received, does anyone?

Now a bit OT, but I didn't start it.....

“Air Medals are handed out like candy, and the vast majority of enlisted people aren’t eligible for them,” said a nonflying major in the Reserves, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to comment on the issue.

Rated officers and enlisted aircrew who fly 20 or more combat missions receive Air Medals.

... “You’re basically doing your job as a pilot and being recognized for it with a decoration,” said the pilot, also granted anonymity. “It’s maybe not necessary, especially when you compare it to guys who are doing their job on the ground but aren’t getting recognized. I think there is a disparity there.”

If the "frakin'" ground pounders who complain will stand outside their office and allow me to take multiple shots at them with an Anti-Aircraft weapon - either bullets or Sams would be fine, then they can also earn a frakin' medal. They can earn one each time, not one per twenty times. Fair enough?

[JoeyDonuts]

According to some the shooting down of flight 93 was a decision taken by a local commander. The colonel earlier stated likewise.

Keyword: Elizabeth Nelson, interview april 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8RZ4UzlKvg&feature=PlayList&p=5FCDAFDBC318146C&index=0&playnext=1).

Think real hard. Who would that have been?

Keep in mind that all fighter aircraft would have been OPCON to NEADS.

I can even tell you his name without Googling.

And he's said quite publicly over and over again that there was no shootdown. He came up with a shootdown scenario, as it was his job to plan for all exigencies. When he proposed that option to NMCC it was denied.

[JoeyDonuts]

If the "frakin'" ground pounders who complain will stand outside their office and allow me to take multiple shots at them with an Anti-Aircraft weapon - either bullets or Sams would be fine, then they can also earn a frakin' medal. They can earn one each time, not one per twenty times. Fair enough?

In the grand scheme of things, chest candy and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee in any diner in the world.

[9/11-investigator]

According to this story (http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=35242.0;wap2) Ed Jacoby must have been sitting on Gibney's lap all the way from Bozeman to Albany since Gibney flew a single seater F16. :D

The commander of the "happy hooligans" admitted in this conference with bloggers in 2007 that they flew F-16 model A (single seat)....Just to start from the beginning, Colonel Mike Wobbema is my name. I am actually with the 119th Wing, the Happy Hooligans out of Fargo, North Dakota. Up until this spring, we were flying the F-16 -- air defense version of the F-16, actually, aircraft; the A model, actually -- in fact, the last operational A model unit in the Air Force.
http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:2TvtGnDOj6UJ:www.defenselink.mil/dodcmsshare/BloggerAssets/2007-10/1030071518571030_Wobbema_transcript.pdf+%22Mike+Wo bbema%22+a+model+f-16&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

The planes used on 9/11 were evidently F-16A (single seat)
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-9942.html

Doesn't seem likely that Jacoby would be flying with one of the happy hooligans. It seems to be a fact that Gibney would be flying a single seat F-16A, and would be flying out of Langley. Not a double seat out of North Dakota. Which seems to be proof of the official story being a deliberate lie.

Gibney is now commander of the reconnaissance squadron......."It is great to be a part of this air and space power mission. Our squadron is committed to maintain the traditional high standards the Happy Hooligans are known for, said Lieutenant Col. Rick Gibney, commander of the reconnaissance squadron.

"It is exciting and rewarding to be a part of this mission that involves the global war on terrorism, homeland security and domestic contingencies."
http://www.1af.acc.af.mil/library/featuresarchive/story_print.asp?id=123059719

How could one of the members of 119th who use F-16A single seat models pick someone up and fly them to NY?

How indeed.

[Reheat]

According to this story (http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=35242.0;wap2) Ed Jacoby must have been sitting on Gibney's lap all the way from Bozeman to Albany since Gibney flew a single seater F16. :D

The commander of the "happy hooligans" admitted in this conference with bloggers in 2007 that they flew F-16 model A (single seat)....Just to start from the beginning, Colonel Mike Wobbema is my name. I am actually with the 119th Wing, the Happy Hooligans out of Fargo, North Dakota. Up until this spring, we were flying the F-16 -- air defense version of the F-16, actually, aircraft; the A model, actually -- in fact, the last operational A model unit in the Air Force.
http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:2TvtGnDOj6UJ:www.defenselink.mil/dodcmsshare/BloggerAssets/2007-10/1030071518571030_Wobbema_transcript.pdf+%22Mike+Wo bbema%22+a+model+f-16&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

The planes used on 9/11 were evidently F-16A (single seat)
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-9942.html

Doesn't seem likely that Jacoby would be flying with one of the happy hooligans. It seems to be a fact that Gibney would be flying a single seat F-16A, and would be flying out of Langley. Not a double seat out of North Dakota. Which seems to be proof of the official story being a deliberate lie.

Gibney is now commander of the reconnaissance squadron......."It is great to be a part of this air and space power mission. Our squadron is committed to maintain the traditional high standards the Happy Hooligans are known for, said Lieutenant Col. Rick Gibney, commander of the reconnaissance squadron.

"It is exciting and rewarding to be a part of this mission that involves the global war on terrorism, homeland security and domestic contingencies."
http://www.1af.acc.af.mil/library/featuresarchive/story_print.asp?id=123059719

How could one of the members of 119th who use F-16A single seat models pick someone up and fly them to NY?

How indeed.

Does my bolding and underlining of key words help you to understand why you might be wrong? It's amazing that you continue to waste time on the tripe you post and expect someone to take anything you say seriously.

[ElMondoHummus]

According to this story (http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=35242.0;wap2) Ed Jacoby must have been sitting on Gibney's lap all the way from Bozeman to Albany since Gibney flew a single seater F16. :D...

You're not so smart, are you? I'm finding references to the 119th flying the F16b version, which was a two-seater.


The announcement was made in March 1999 that the 119th Fighter Wing would convert from an air defense mission to a general purpose mission with 15 F-16A/B aircraft while activating an alert detachment at Langley AFB, VA.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm)

That paragraph also explains why they had jets at both Fargo and Langley.

GlobalSecurity.org also echos this:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm)

Furthermore, the third link was about the callsign "Quit" F-16s that were scrambled to Washington. Not the one used by Gibney.

-----

That was just sad. Totally sad. 9/11-I is concentrating on trying to make a lie out of Jacoby being flown to New York, but completely ignoring the entire weight of the rest of the evidence. This is what he's reduced to.

Where's the actual linkage of Gibney's flight or medal to this "shootdown"? I've yet to see it. And I've yet to see real evidence that the jet was shot down; the debris doesn't show it. Neither does the CVR and FDR. There's nothing here but - again, in 9/11-I's style - unsupported allegations. If he keeps on wasting our time with empty links and weak accusations, I'm putting him on ignore. So, it's put up or shut up time. Where's the evidence?

[9/11-investigator]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm)

That paragraph also explains why they had jets at both Fargo and Langley.

GlobalSecurity.org also echos this:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usaf/119fw.htm)

Before you market yourself as such a smartie try providing functioning links first. Both result in blank pages not getting past the 'trying to connect' stage (at least here in Amsterdam).

That was just sad. Totally sad. 9/11-I is concentrating on trying to make a lie out of Jacoby being flown to New York, but completely ignoring the entire weight of the rest of the evidence. This is what he's reduced to.

Complete BS. I do not doubt that Jacoby was flown to Albany (rather than to New York as you erroneously claim). I'm denying that there is any proof that Gibney was the one that flew him. Cover-up Central PopMec saying so is not enough proof by a long shot.

Where's the actual linkage of Gibney's flight or medal to this "shootdown"?

Do you really expect that he will be rewarded by expliciting mentioning the shoot down? Come on. They were mentioning 'excellent services on the day of 9/11' or something similar.

I still cannot think of any motive why the colonel would make such a thing up: explicitly naming the pilot who admitted having shot down F93.

I can think of a motive though why PM would attempt to cover up the official story.

If he keeps on wasting our time with empty links and weak accusations, I'm putting him on ignore. So, it's put up or shut up time.

Easy way out? Nobody is asking you to engage in a conversation. Mind the step on the way out.

[9/11-investigator]

Wait, the link is now working (btw you posted 2 identical links for the price of 2, Zweistein).

"The announcement was made in March 1999 that the 119th Fighter Wing would convert from an air defense mission to a general purpose mission with 15 F-16A/B aircraft while activating an alert detachment at Langley AFB, VA."

What do you think an F16 is, a Hamburger you can get from a take away joint? It can take many years before you actually have one.

[ElMondoHummus]

Before you market yourself as such a smartie try providing functioning links first. Both result in blank pages not getting past the 'trying to connect' stage (at least here in Amsterdam).


Not my problem; they work for me. Go try using a web proxy if you're having problems.

Furthermore, theyr'e not the only links available. Go look for some yourself. Hint: Avoid using truther sites; they're inaccurate and unreliable. But the point is, your claim that the 119th only used single seat versions of F-16s is incorrect.


Complete BS. I do not doubt that Jacoby was flown to Albany (rather than to New York as you erroneously claim). I'm denying that there is any proof that Gibney was the one that flew him. Cover-up Central PopMec saying so is not enough proof by a long shot.


More assertions without proof. You have no reason to doubt that it was Gibney. Jacoby himself said it. Denying that simply because of the source that reports it is a double standard and hypocritical to boot, particularly in the face of your continual use of sites historically far more inaccurate than PopMech.


Do you really expect that he will be rewarded by expliciting mentioning the shoot down? Come on. They were mentioning 'excellent services on the day of 9/11' or something similar.


Thank you for confirming that you have no direct evidence that the medal was awarded for a shootdown.


I still cannot think of any motive why the colonel would make such a thing up: explicitly naming the pilot who admitted having shot down F93.

I can think of a motive though why PM would attempt to cover up the official story.


Your inability to come up with a motive is irrelevant. Any claim that FL93 was shot down is contradicted by evidence. You cannot dismiss the FDR and CVR indicating a perfectly functional jetliner to the moment of impact. You cannot dismiss the passenger calls indicating a hijack. You cannot dismiss the radar track. You cannot dismiss the lack of statements by the first responders or the coroner indicating that the majority of the debris, most especially the heavy components and the human remains was in fact in an area measurable in acres, not scattered across miles. All the evidence demonstrates that the claim of a shootdown is false. And all you bring to counter it are unproven statements from two individuals? Against the weight of the electronic and recovered physical evidence?

You are not a good thinker. You do not know how to measure evidence properly. You do not know how to logically construct a sound argument. And you do not know how to detect errorneous claims. Your failure to understand the events on that day extends from this. You simply are not trying to think clearly, coherently, and logically.

You very much need to improve your critical thinking skills. Forget 9/11; you need to study some basics. Start here:

Carl Sagan: The Demon Haunted World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World): This book illustrates how fallacious thinking and irrational beliefs are held, and demonstrates how to understand them and discriminate between valid and invalid arguments.

Mistakes Were Made (but not by me) Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts (http://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-But-Not/dp/0151010986): This book illustrates cognitive dissonance, and how people fool themselves into irrational beliefs. It's good reading for all of us here, myself included, but you need it way more than any of the rest of us do.

Lies, Damned Lies, and Science (http://www.amazon.com/Lies-Damned-Science-Scientific-Controversies/dp/0137155220): This book shows how to separate writings about research from the research itself, how to detect logical fallacies, and generally is a good primer on how to think critically.

There are other books available in the forum's book review section (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=80); you can find relevant material to study there. On top of that, there are plenty of sites dedicated to the concept of critical thinking; the summary of the "Baloney Detection Kit (http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html)" based on Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" is one of them. There are others. The point is that material is available to help people get past irrationality and understand the canards and misrepresentations of all pseudoscientific and fallacious conspiratorial fantasies that are out there. Take it from me: You need this material.


Nobody is asking you to engage in a conversation. Mind the step on the way out.

The fact that you post in this forum means that you're inviting comment. If you do not like the rebuttals, come up with a better argument. Use the links I've given above to improve yourself.

[ElMondoHummus]

Wait, the link is now working (btw you posted 2 identical links for the price of 2, Zweistein).

"The announcement was made in March 1999 that the 119th Fighter Wing would convert from an air defense mission to a general purpose mission with 15 F-16A/B aircraft while activating an alert detachment at Langley AFB, VA."

What do you think an F16 is, a Hamburger you can get from a take away joint? It can take many years before you actually have one.

They are documented as having a two-seat version, 9/11-I. That's the point of the links.

[9/11-investigator]

ElMondoHummus: "The fact that you post in this forum means that you're inviting comment. If you do not like the rebuttals, come up with a better argument."

Wait a minute, it is not me who is threatening to put you on the ignore, it's the other way around! I value your rebuttals since you are one of the more intelligent chaps around here. I'm here to provoke rebuttals, not to avoid them.

Listen, I do not say that the colonel holds the holy grail of 9/11 truth. I find him highly interesting and I am trying to explore deeper in the matter, which results in bouncing posts from left to right like a pingpong-ball.

In my blog how911wasdone.blogspot.com I do not go deep into flight93 or 77 because they contain many mysteries indeed and I modestly advise truthers to concentrate on WTC, where the situation if much clearer. Nevertheless I ran into this colonel a week ago and I was wondering what Debunker Central JREF had to say about him. Not much as it turned out.

[ElMondoHummus]

That's because there is not much to say about him. Regardless of his claims, the fact remains that the weight of the evidence disproves his statement.

That's been our argument from the beginning. We don't need to delve into who de Grand-Pre is, what matters is how his claims stack up against what's already known. And to be blunt, it doesn't stack up well at all.

[NobbyNobbs]

Several eyewitnesses described hearing explosions before Flight 93 crashed
and others said they heard missiles[/I].



How many of those witnesses are qualified to know what a missile should really sound like?



Pan Am 103 did not 'break up' but was blown up with a bomb, an event comparable with the rocket that brought down F93.


If the event was comparable, then the debris field should be comparable. The debris field forr Pan Am 103 was hundreds of square miles. How big did you say F93's was?



The expression was: "like confetti raining down".

This is not like pieces of paper whirling through the sky following the whims of the wind.

:jaw-dropp