Peace was now flushed down the toilet

[Gem]

Does anyone think peace is actually possible now?

There has been too much blood on both sides that neither side will stop, that's how I think it is.

Gem

[Tony]

Originally posted by Gem
Does anyone think peace is actually possible now?

There has been too much blood on both sides that neither side will stop, that's how I think it is.

Gem


I assume you are referring the the palestinan/israeli conflict. Yes, i think peace is possible, although you would not approve of my solution.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Tony



I assume you are referring the the palestinan/israeli conflict. Yes, i think peace is possible, although you would not approve of my solution.

Your "solution" is no solution at all, It is simply one of the range if topics you use to troll this board. If you think that ranting about genocide is a humorous passtime you need to get a life.

[Gem]

Is your solution the "final solution?" Isreal can't really do that

Gem

[peptoabysmal]

I didn't think it was possible before. What's changed?

[Frostbite]

Peace is only possible when people cease to be so damn selfish and accept other people's positions. There's enough food, air and water for everyone.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony



I assume you are referring the the palestinan/israeli conflict. Yes, i think peace is possible, although you would not approve of my solution.

While it's easy to sit back in our comfortable western world and talk sh*t like this, but the reality behind such talk is horrific and absolutley appalling.
Should Israel destroy Palestine and the Palestinian people? Remember, there are a lot of innocent women and children among them.
Degrading the value of human life like this is despicable Tony.

Yes, there are Palestinians who want Jews dead and Jews who want Palestinians dead, but actively encouraging genocide is inexcuseable.

[Tony]

Originally posted by The Fool


Your "solution" is no solution at all, It is simply one of the range if topics you use to troll this board. If you think that ranting about genocide is a humorous passtime you need to get a life.


Good thing I dont think it is humorous. And my solution is not genocide, you are just creating a strawman.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony



Good thing I dont think it is humorous. And my solution is not genocide, you are just creating a strawman.

What is your solution, Tony?

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG


What is your solution, Tony?


My solution is to give the palestinians what they want, all out war.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony



My solution is to give the palestinians what they want, all out war.

I have trouble advocating any solution that will result in massive amount of deaths.

I too am very frustrated at the constant derailing of the peace process over there, and the ignorance of both sides who continue to cling to the idea that they are divinely entitled to the land.

But an all out war means an incredible amount of lost lives.

Plus, do you really think it would all be over if there was an all out war?

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG


I have trouble advocating any solution that will result in massive amount of deaths.



Normally, so do I. But extreme situations require extreme solutions. The palestinian have consistantly shown they cant live peacefully beside or be part of israel. Whats the point of try to secure peace if one or both sides dont want it? The logical thing to do is let them fight it out.


Plus, do you really think it would all be over if there was an all out war?

It would be the most significant step in the "peace process" to date, and a substantial amount of potential suicide bombers will be killed. Thats a good thing.

[KelvinG]

How do you think the Arab world in general would feel about this? Do you think it might have an adverse effect on Arab/Israeli (and US relations) in the future?

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG
How do you think the Arab world in general would feel about this?

They would be mad. But the muslims are going to have to eventually swallow their pride and join the modern world.


Do you think it might have an adverse effect on Arab/Israeli (and US relations) in the future?

Yes, but ive always had the opinion that it was going to get worse before it gets better.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Tony


...a substantial amount of potential suicide bombers will be killed. Thats a good thing.

I find this statement unnerving, and it says a lot about Tony.

[American]

To end a war:

a) someone gives up and goes home (sometimes both sides)

or

b) one side wins


There are no other outcomes; only continual fighting and death until one of those two things happens.

[crackmonkey]

There's a vast difference between Jewish opinion of Palestinians and Arab opinion of Jews. The Arab street advocates destroying the nation of Israel - driving them into the ocean as Hamas has put it. The majority of Israelis are opposed to Sharon's assassination policy, as they feel it will only inflame the hostilities.
Isn't it obvious? The majority of Israelis are opposed to hostilies, but the majority of Arabs are advocating holy war (of course, those opposed to the idea of war may too frightened of being lynched by Palestinian militants to speak against it).

[Tony]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


I find this statement unnerving, and it says a lot about Tony.

Yes, it says I dont tolerate suicide bombers.

[Monketey Ghost]

Originally posted by Tony



My solution is to give the palestinians what they want, all out war.

I find this statement unnerving, yet it says nothing about Tony I hadn't already surmised.

You can't speak for all Palestinians Tony, don't try. It makes you look foolish.

[Tony]

Originally posted by No Answers



You can't speak for all Palestinians Tony, don't try. It makes you look foolish.


I judge by their .actions (http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html). If you evidence to the contrary, please share.

http://www.mideasttruth.com/video.html

http://www.campustruth.org/content/link.php?go=http://www.israelnationalnews.com/data/asx/2002/06/29/asx_210_broad.asx

[Monketey Ghost]

Originally posted by Tony



I judge by their .actions (http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html). If you evidence to the contrary, please share.

http://www.mideasttruth.com/video.html

http://www.campustruth.org/content/link.php?go=http://www.israelnationalnews.com/data/asx/2002/06/29/asx_210_broad.asx

And these were the actions of all Palestinians? Amazing.

But it must be so, because you know what they want, right?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Tony


Yes, it says I dont tolerate suicide bombers.

But you didn't say "it would kill a lot of suicide bombers".

[Tony]

Originally posted by No Answers


And these were the actions of all Palestinians? Amazing.

But it must be so, because you know what they want, right?


So you have no evidence to the contrary?

[Dancing David]

There is always hope, there have been worse nd longer ones. The question is how do you get all sides to agree to hope?

What happens right now is that an extremist on either side can upset the hope for peace and then it starts all over again.

But can outside forces generate hope?

[Monketey Ghost]

Originally posted by Tony



So you have no evidence to the contrary?

You suggested giving the Palestinians what THEY want, all out war.

Please provide evidence to support YOUR assertion, rather than shifting the burden of proof.

Do you have such evidence? Or are you simply dehumanizing the entire group based on the actions of a few?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


But you didn't say "it would kill a lot of suicide bombers".


You're right; I said "potential suicide bombers". If a society is indoctrinating their youth to become martyrs (http://www.campustruth.org/content/link.php?go=http://www.israelnationalnews.com/data/asx/2002/06/29/asx_210_broad.asx), wouldn’t it be logical to eliminate the threat before it has time to manifest itself?

[Tony]

Originally posted by No Answers


You suggested giving the Palestinians what THEY want, all out war.

Please provide evidence to support YOUR assertion, rather than shifting the burden of proof.

Do you have such evidence? Or are you simply dehumanizing the entire group based on the actions of a few?

Study the links I gave you, it will become apparent that the palestinans want war.

If they dont, why do they raise their children to become warriors?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Tony



You're right; I said "potential suicide bombers". If a society is indoctrinating their youth to become martyrs (http://www.campustruth.org/content/link.php?go=http://www.israelnationalnews.com/data/asx/2002/06/29/asx_210_broad.asx), wouldn’t it be logical to eliminate the threat before it has time to manifest itself?

Perhaps...but the society in question isn't so indoctrinating their children.

Applying your logic, one could suggest that the U.S. government should raid and destroy all extremist right-wing "militia" and supremacist groups, because such groups are a nursery for future abortion-clinic bombers, federal-building bombers, and snipers.

[Monketey Ghost]

Originally posted by Tony


Study the links I gave you, it will become apparent that the palestinans want war.

If they dont, why do they raise their children to become warriors?

Cop-out, doesn't work. This is a board for critical thinkers, Tony, not a board for unsupported assertions that are "apparent".

[Tony]

Originally posted by No Answers


Cop-out, doesn't work. This is a board for critical thinkers, Tony, not a board for unsupported assertions that are "apparent".

You are just refusing to look at the evidence I provided for you.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Perhaps...but the society in question isn't so indoctrinating their children.



huh?

Applying your logic, one could suggest that the U.S. government should raid and destroy all extremist right-wing "militia" and supremacist groups, because such groups are a nursery for future abortion-clinic bombers, federal-building bombers, and snipers.

Isn’t that what Clinton did at Ruby ridge and in Waco?

But that’s beside the point; you are failing to make some important distinctions.

1.The US government/people haven’t been through a 30-year cycle of violence with said groups. Those things you bring up are few and far between.

2.There aren’t generations of right-wing suicide bombers being indoctrinated.

3. And if there were separatist groups killing innocent people and terrorizing the population, the people in this country would demand the government do something about it. They wouldn’t sit back while people were being killed while the “peace process” was being worked out.

[Dancing David]

Oh please Tony, at Ruby Ridge there was a major suspicion that there was law breaking going on, and David Koresh was molesting children (which is okay because god told him too).

How does this becaome the government squashing right wing papramilitaries. You have a barely cogent argument , don't make it worse by bringing up the Feds bustin down on law breakers.

[KelvinG]

Let's just assume that the Palestinians do want all out war. Isn't giving it to them sinking to their level?

I still hold out hope that we live in an age where common sense can prevail over violence and bloodshed. Maybe I'm just an idealist.

[Baker]

Here is an interesting bit of news.

RAMALLAH — Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas has threatened to resign after his failure to prevent an escalation in the Israeli-Palestinian insurgency war.

Palestinian sources said Abbas has accused Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat of inciting Hamas to escalate attacks against Israel in an attempt to undermine the new prime minister.

"Abbas is not kidding about resigning," a Palestinian source said. "He is under great pressure and he doesn't operate well under pressure."

Abbas has told allies in the Fatah movement that he has been isolated in his efforts to achieve a ceasefire in the Israeli-Palestinian war, Middle East Newsline reported. They said the threat by Abbas to resign has been augmented by warnings that his Cabinet ministers will walk off their jobs.
http://216.26.163.62/2003/me_palestinians_06_12.html

[Monketey Ghost]

Originally posted by Tony


You are just refusing to look at the evidence I provided for you.

I've looked at them. They don't provide evidence that all Palestinians want war.

You ask why Palestinian parents raise their children to be warriors. Don't all Israeli men have to do compulsory military service? Isn't this the same thing?

[Tony]

Originally posted by No Answers


I've looked at them. They don't provide evidence that all Palestinians want war.


It doesn’t matter if every single solitary Palestinian wants war, the majority do, that's what matters.

You ask why Palestinian parents raise their children to be warriors. Don't all Israeli men have to do compulsory military service? Isn't this the same thing?

The key word in this statement is the word men. They aren’t children being taught to hate and become martyrs, they are men being drafted to serve their country.

[KelvinG]

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=7416&TagID=2

A letter from a Jewish child to a Palestinian child, said, “I hope you and your family will burn in hell.” These ugly expressions and desires come from an Israeli child who took part in a research study. The study was conducted by an Israeli researcher and translated into Arabic. The study was presented to a teaching committee at the London School of Economics (LSE). The researcher is a former soldier and a member of the anti-terrorist unit in the Israeli army. He studied psychology at the LSE

Hmm, I found this interesting.

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG
http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=7416&TagID=2



Hmm, I found this interesting.


Thats a very dubious source.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony



Thats a very dubious source.

And how do we know yours aren't?

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG


And how do we know yours aren't?


That's a judgement you are going to have to make yourself. Personally, I think pictures and videos are more compelling than a bunch of faceless articles on a fundie muslim website.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony



That's a judgement you are going to have to make yourself. Personally, I think pictures and videos are more compelling than a bunch of faceless articles on a fundie muslim website.

I know that propoganda can take many forms. I'm always skeptical of anything I see on the internet. Anyone with some bandwidth and a point of view can create a website.

And I agree, the website I listed might be dubious. It might all be a crock. Same with the links you posted.

Video and photos don't mean much. If they did, Bowling for Columbine would be taken as total truth. I seem to remember a lot of people on this forum had a problem with that film.

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG


Video and photos don't mean much.

Im not taking the video and photo evidence by itself. I am taking it in conjunction with the actions of the palestinians, the stated goals of the PA leadership and what the palestinans are teaching their children. Someone posted a link a few days ago that had exerps from the palestinian school books, ill try to find it.


If they did, Bowling for Columbine would be taken as total truth. I seem to remember a lot of people on this forum had a problem with that film.

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/menutest/articles/sp03/mattson.htm

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony


Im not taking the video and photo evidence by itself. I am taking it in conjunction with the actions of the palestinians, the stated goals of the PA leadership and what the palestinans are teaching their children. Someone posted a link a few days ago that had exerps from the palestinian school books, ill try to find it.


If they did, Bowling for Columbine would be taken as total truth. I seem to remember a lot of people on this forum had a problem with that film.

http://www.dissentmagazine.org/menutest/articles/sp03/mattson.htm

Just so you know, I had a lot of problems with Bowling for Columbine myself. As a editor and sometimes filmmaker I am acutely aware of the power to manipulate people's opinions through media. Hec, I've done it on many occasions.
I felt Moore had some valid points, but stretched and excluded the truth in much of it. Anyways, I won't go there since that has been covered countless times in other threads.

However, that is my main point. How do we really decide what the truth is?
Perhaps the real Israeli/Palestinian issue is obscured in the western world by a media that favours one side over the other. And if that's the case, it is as easy as pie to convey the Israelis as the victims and the Palestinians as the evil ones.
Somehow I doubt it is that simple.

I never feel like I'm getting the real story of what's going on in that part of the world.
Who do I believe?
That is why I have trouble siding exclusively with either side.

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG


However, that is my main point. How do we really decide what the truth is?
Perhaps the real Israeli/Palestinian issue is obscured in the western world by a media that favours one side over the other. And if that's the case, it is as easy as pie to convey the Israelis as the victims and the Palestinians as the evil ones.
Somehow I doubt it is that simple.

I never feel like I'm getting the real story of what's going on in that part of the world.
Who do I believe?
That is why I have trouble siding exclusively with either side.

I understand, but personally, the reason I will always support israel is because it is a modern, liberal state that respects womans rights, gay rights and freedom of speech.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony


I understand, but personally, the reason I will always support israel is because it is a modern, liberal state that respects womans rights, gay rights and freedom of speech.

I'm not going to argue with you there Tony.
I'm not in love with everything Israel does, but many days I do feel like they are much more sensible than the Palestinians. (not every day do I feel that way - but many days!)

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG


I'm not going to argue with you there Tony.
I'm not in love with everything Israel does, but many days I do feel like they are much more sensible than the Palestinians. (not every day do I feel that way - but many days!)

Somebody call 911, Kevin must be sick, he is agreeing with me. :p