The lighter side of insanity

[Gravy]

I just found out that one of the dumber of the people who goes to GZ on Saturdays has a blog about his experiences. http://fredstruth.blogspot.com

My comments in brackets.
August 5
As the day goes on the anti-9/11 group 911myths.com [Hey, Mike, you have a group – and it's anti-9/11!] shows up and attacks us from all sides, [Yes, we attacked from all one side, since they had their backs to a wall.] trying to tack up their signs over top of ours on the construction companys wall, which is illegal. [Gravy says: uh, no, we put our signs above theirs, not over them, as Abby's video shows.] So we just step in front of them to keep them from getting at out posters. [Also known as denying us the same Constitutional rights they were exercising. Moments before, one of them grabbed a handful of literature from us and tore it up. Later, when we weren't looking, some of our signs were thrown into a construction area.] I get stuck with one of the tacks in my shoulder and the guy threatens me. [The threat was "If you leap in front of me again while I'm holding a thumbtack through this sign, you're likely to get stuck again."] I tell him that I am diabetic and that if he sticks me with that tack again, were going to court. [Apparently he sprang an insulin leak.] He backs off and shuts up. [That is: "He put the signs up and we moved ours out of embarrassment."] They think they can intimidate but they are easily fooled. [We are. Just hold something shiny in front of us.] So we kept blocking them [There's that pesky Constitution again!] but Ryan, one of the younger guys says to me, Let them go. With the film crew here, it just draws attention to them.

August 19
I tell you, it gets better every time I go to GZ. I love it. It is so much fun when you tell somebody about the TRUTH and they turn their head and they say, "I didn't know that."

...Plus we had a lawyer from the Lawyers Guild watching over the situation for us. She came into play as soon as the opposition started her attacks. [Go, Abby!] What the lawyer said or did I personally do not know [That's because the lawyer didn't say or do anything.] but I went toe to toe with both of them for a while but when you talk to concrete long enough, you stop [Abby, were you there with Christophera?] I can tell you this: when we confront his b.s., he really does not like it. The last time I sternly corrected him in front of an audience, he actually stopped his presentation, bowed his head, and slinked away. It's been years since I've seen someone slink.

Here's a classic Fred moment, which I made an audio recording of. Fred was trying to counter the evidence I presented to some onlookers by saying that evidence from the government can't be trusted.

Man in crowd: "What's your name, sir?"

"My name is Fred Weber."

"Because someone told you that's your name? I say your name's not Fred."

"I have proof." Fred pulls out his wallet and Social Security card.

Me: "That evidence is fake! Don't look at that evidence!"

Guy: "Someone made that up!"

Fred: "No, they didn't. It's from the Federal Government!"

That's verbatim. Fred is 54 years old.

ETA: Gawd, I just read his September 11 entry, where he turns into a human Slushy. Oh, and Fred is an ex-FDNY dispatcher. I'll be chatting with him about that the next time I see him.

ETA: Oh, mama. I may look like DeNiro, but this guy may be a Travis Bickle in the making.

September 10: From problems with Loose Change to problems with...Loose Change!

I was in dire need most the day for change. I needed ones a lot and then fives and tens as most people came in from the ATM with $20 for a $12 donation and fives and ones went fast. So then I would ask for 2 ones and give them a ten back so then the tens would go. So it was a challenge to balance out the change. By the end of the night it basically worked out. I had to charge different prices at times to keep that change balance but it worked out. There was one other significant problem that raised its rather ugly head. One of the other Loose Change gentlemen [Korey Rowe] approached me while I was selling tickets. He patiently allowed me to continue to sell tickets. I knew who he was as I recognize him from his pictures and that he had spoken at the church Friday night. He also is one of my friends on my myspace page. After I was done selling tickets, he says to me without mentioning names, "Les Jamieson told me I can have 2 tickets and I'm not paying for them" in a tone that was quite indignant and surly. Now for a kid in his early 20s talking to a man in his mid 50s…if I would have talked like that to my father, he would have hauled off and …have been put in jail if it would have been today. Because that was the way things were in those days. I know, I know, it's not then but like I said before, these young gentlemen need to step back and remember where they were a few years back. Mired in a small hick town, delivering pizzas, doing tours in Iraq and doing what? So they made a big splash in the movement with a video and now they're big shots but you don't talk to people, especially older people like they're nothing. I may only be starting out in the movement but I have just as much right to be treated like a human being than anybody else. The next time, and I really hope there is no next time, he gets dressed down a few pegs.

[Alareth]

Is he the guy in Abby's video with the binder full of pictures and clippings?

[Gravy]

Is he the guy in Abby's video with the binder full of pictures and clippings?
No, that's Spittle-Spewin' Fishing Hat Man. I don't know his name.

[stateofgrace]

I don't think Fred really understands how he is upsetting people. I started reading his blog but give up when I got to this.


An ex-firefighter started in on one of us and then on me. I told him that I was there for him today. I told him about the flowers and the sign that I had tied to the fence. I told him that I was an ex-fire dispatcher for the FDNY in New York. But he continued to scream and yell at us. He called us vile names and cursed at us. At one point he even said that he wished that we were in the towers when they collapsed.

[Mr. Skinny]

No, that's Spittle-Spewin' Fishing Hat Man. I don't know his name.
Gravy, if you can still edit your comments [in brackets], could you change change the font to italics, or a different color?

Signed,

Old guy with poor eyesight.

[Gravy]

Gravy, if you can still edit your comments [in brackets], could you change change the font to italics, or a different color?

Signed,

Old guy with poor eyesight.
You got it, gramps.

[Mr. Skinny]

You got it, gramps.
Thanks, sonny. :)

[jhunter1163]

Where was the Clock Man in all this? I've wondered what Flava Flav was gonna do now that his show was canceled.

[Gravy]

On a serious note, it's impossible not to feel sorry for this guy after reading his blog. He just isn't bright, and being a part of this "movement" seems to be a big part of a small life. My problem is that he likes to make himself very prominent at Ground Zero, standing in front of their big laminated signs and lecturing to the public. I am not going to give him any leeway when he gives false information, but it's hard not to come across as a bully when confronting someone this simple. He's also a very defensive person, and seems to have a bit of a persecution complex.

Any advice on how to deal with someone like this will be welcome.

[T.A.M.]

I would use positive comments to win him over to you on a certain level, then try to make him "see the light".

Fred: 9/11 was an "Inside Job".

Gravy: Look Fred, I understand your motives. You feel you are doing the right thing for your fellow americans, and I can relate. I am trying to do that as well. Rather than me point out where you are wrong, why don't you show me the proof that it was an "inside job".

Then in a very benign fashion, try to show him where he is wrong.

TAM

[TheGrunion]

On a serious note, it's impossible not to feel sorry for this guy after reading his blog. He just isn't bright, and being a part of this "movement" seems to be a big part of a small life. My problem is that he likes to make himself very prominent at Ground Zero, standing in front of their big laminated signs and lecturing to the public. I am not going to give him any leeway when he gives false information, but it's hard not to come across as a bully when confronting someone this simple. He's also a very defensive person, and seems to have a bit of a persecution complex.

Any advice on how to deal with someone like this will be welcome.

Treat him with respect.

Treat him with kindness.

Make him understand he is being used.

[Gravy]

I would use positive comments to win him over to you on a certain level, then try to make him "see the light".

Fred: 9/11 was an "Inside Job".

Gravy: Look Fred, I understand your motives. You feel you are doing the right thing for your fellow americans, and I can relate. I am trying to do that as well. Rather than me point out where you are wrong, why don't you show me the proof that it was an "inside job".

Then in a very benign fashion, try to show him where he is wrong.

TAM
That's good advice, T.A.M., and I'll relay it to Abby :D. (I'm realizing that I'm just too big and mean-looking to be viewed as benign.)

[T.A.M.]

You do not look big, mean, or imposing to me. Now Jon Gold, he is a little mean looking. Abby however, with her sense of humor and "girl next door" good looks could definitely win him over.

TAM

[Gravy]

You do not look big, mean, or imposing to me. Now Jon Gold, he is a little mean looking. Abby however, with her sense of humor and "girl next door" good looks could definitely win him over.

TAM
I was in the market selecting avocados the other day, and a woman asked me if I was okay. Apparently I looked like I was going to kill the fruit, not purchase it. I had no idea that I was wearing that expression. At Ground Zero, I've established a precedent of going right for the throat, so to speak. I'm sure that if I started being Mr. Nice Guy, they'd be even more reluctant to listen. Perhaps the good cop/bad cop approach is best.

[T.A.M.]

I was in the market selecting avocados the other day, and a woman asked me if I was okay. Apparently I looked like I was going to kill the fruit, not purchase it. I had no idea that I was wearing that expression. At Ground Zero, I've established a precedent of going right for the throat, so to speak. I'm sure that if I started being Mr. Nice Guy, they'd be even more reluctant to listen. Perhaps the good cop/bad cop approach is best.

Better watch what you say, or you'll start something. I mean, now you're gonna have all the guys having visions of Abby in a police uniform.

TAM:D

[dirtywick]

Treat him with respect.

Treat him with kindness.

Make him understand he is being used.

This makes a lot of sense. I mean, clearly he's a little disgruntled over tickets being demanded by some kid, obviously he doesn't like being pushed around.

[Oliver]

On a serious note, it's impossible not to feel sorry for this guy after reading his blog. He just isn't bright, and being a part of this "movement" seems to be a big part of a small life. My problem is that he likes to make himself very prominent at Ground Zero, standing in front of their big laminated signs and lecturing to the public. I am not going to give him any leeway when he gives false information, but it's hard not to come across as a bully when confronting someone this simple. He's also a very defensive person, and seems to have a bit of a persecution complex.

Any advice on how to deal with someone like this will be welcome.

Spent him a drink in a bar, maybe you tell him that you once also believed in his theories to open the door to his world. Tell him that "9/11" is hard to understand for many people and try to talk to him in a kind of talking and listening to a "child" to understand what he deeply thinks/feels about 9/11.

Facts doesn´t help him to understand what you´re trying to explain, Gravy. I´m pretty sure he doesn´t even know the "facts" that he´s telling the people. You may proof this by asking "why" do you believe in this or that. I don´t know him but your description reminds me to a very warm-hearted person in my neighborhood.

Oliver

[Abbyas]

She came into play as soon as the opposition started her attacks.

For crying in the beer. Attacks? I had little flyers that I had made. That was it. Oh, and I ran around pantsing all of them. Maybe that counts.


This man is a child. He has friends and a purpose in life now, and he's excited about it. However, to make an extreme analogy: If a man decided to make new friends by becoming a neo-nazi, how much pity do we afford him?

Perhaps the good cop/bad cop approach is best.

I think we've already been doing that. Although, I don't know how much of that is by My choice. The first few weeks, often, Gravy'd ask them a question or make a statement and they'd respond to me. And I'd think, "Dang it! Why aren't you as afraid of me!"

I was in the market selecting avocados the other day, and a woman asked me if I was okay.

Stupid alligator pears.

[Gravy]

For crying in the beer. Attacks? I had little flyers that I had made. That was it. Oh, and I ran around pantsing all of them. Maybe that counts.
I will pay you to dress as a "Truth cop." I don't care if I have to sell the cat to buy your uniform and nightstick. You can write summonses for violations of the laws of physics.

PLEASE?

ETA: can anyone chip in for bail money? http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2005-08-22-sag-warning_x.htm

[60hzxtl]

Poor ol' Fred.

If you have a blog, and nobody comments, do you really have a blog? (even if its not in the forest?)

[T.A.M.]

See Gravy, there you go egging on the visions. you are determined to give some of the older guys on this site heart attacks...lol

TAM

[Abbyas]

I will pay you to dress as a "Truth cop." I don't care if I have to sell the cat to buy your uniform and nightstick. You can write summonses for violations of the laws of physics.

PLEASE?

I know how this works, Mr. Director. It's like when RealityBites and I wore those "9/11 Ignorance Monitor" signs that you made, but you didn't!

"Let's dress up Abby. That way, I'll look like the sane one." I see into your machinations! And your soul.

[dirtywick]

This man is a child. He has friends and a purpose in life now, and he's excited about it. However, to make an extreme analogy: If a man decided to make new friends by becoming a neo-nazi, how much pity do we afford him?


I'd pity him. I'd pity anyone that pretends to believe something they don't, especially something so disgusting. It must take a level of desperation and loneliness that I can't comprehend to betray your principles. There's still hope for those people too so I figure they deserve at least pity.

[Brainster]

Enjoyed reading his entry, and certainly he comes off as of limited intelligence, although he can write reasonably well. Maybe it's just that I'm so used to reading the pathetic posts over at the Looser Forum, where the age is younger and the writing skills are nonexistent.

He's certainly honest about some of the intra-Denial Movement jealousies and bitterness.

[Gravy]

I'd pity him. I'd pity anyone that pretends to believe something they don't, especially something so disgusting. It must take a level of desperation and loneliness that I can't comprehend to betray your principles. There's still hope for those people too so I figure they deserve at least pity.
Oh, I think this guy has swallowed the CT line hook, line, and sinker. In one of his posts, he confidently describes talking to four guys who had lost loved ones on 9/11:

I used my usual about the 425,000 cubic yards of concrete turning to dust and the perfectly sliced center steel cores by controlled demolition.
If I were the head of a cult, I'd consider him easy pickings:

I used to live in New York when I was the fire dispatcher but I had never ridden the subway.

[60hzxtl]

Enjoyed reading his entry, and certainly he comes off as of limited intelligence, although he can write reasonably well.

" I belong to 2 groups in New York and the Phialdelphia area."

yep bwut spel chekin isnnt onne of he's shtrong poynts.

Or maybe my geography is flawed. . .

[dirtywick]

That's too bad, especially the bit with the family members. I don't know, maybe it's him being bullied by Rowe over some tickets and watching the way they bully their way around GZ with their slogans and offensive behavior, I just feel sorry for the guy. It ain't every day that I feel bad for people like that either, but it's just something I can't quite place.

[TheGrunion]

I read this dude's 9/11 blog entry and checked out his myspace page.

This guy clearly has sensitivity towards the victims of 9/11.

He also has health problems.

It seems like he just needed something to do, and a group to belong to. It's funny, we actually share some similar interests (tabletop baseball and Philadelphia sports teams). I wish he got gobbled up by a Phillies fan club instead of the troofers. :(

I wonder if he's ever watched Screw Loose Change?

[Gravy]

I read this dude's 9/11 blog entry and checked out his myspace page.

This guy clearly has sensitivity towards the victims of 9/11.

He also has health problems.

It seems like he just needed something to do, and a group to belong to. It's funny, we actually share some similar interests (tabletop baseball and Philadelphia sports teams). I wish he got gobbled up by a Phillies fan club instead of the troofers. :(

I wonder if he's ever watched Screw Loose Change?
I'm going to work the respect for victims and firefighters at Ground Zero angle. He was pissed that Alex Jones took out the bullhorn, and I'm not sure that he's aware of the accusations his group makes against the firefighters.

[Brainster]

I read this dude's 9/11 blog entry and checked out his myspace page.

This guy clearly has sensitivity towards the victims of 9/11.

He also has health problems.

It seems like he just needed something to do, and a group to belong to. It's funny, we actually share some similar interests (tabletop baseball and Philadelphia sports teams).

I had Strat-O-Matic for one year back in the 1970s and managed to get some old friends to play it for awhile. It really helped when the first game I played with people watching ended with a walk-off homer; everybody was hooked.

The only problem was finding somebody to play against when I moved 3000 miles from home. I did get into Rotisserie League ball in 1984, and also picked up Micro-League Baseball, a terrific program for the Commodore 64 that let you manage many famous teams of history.

Sorry for the thread derail!

As for the guy, I doubt if we can turn him. Let's face it, what do we offer him? He can't even run the ticket table for us, since there are no tickets to sell. Being a Denier offers him a sense of being needed, of belonging to a community--with actual meetings. Being a Debunker doesn't have a lot of fringe benefits, aside from the Debunker Groupies.

You know the saddest thing, though? As modestly intellectually gifted as Fred is, he writes better than 95% of the folks at the Loose Change forum, some of whom I have no doubt are reasonably intelligent.

[G-K-4]

You know the saddest thing, though? As modestly intellectually gifted as Fred is, he writes better than 95% of the folks at the Loose Change forum, some of whom I have no doubt are reasonably intelligent.
I'm guessing that's because he's in his 50's and probably learned to type on a manual typewriter. Maybe there is also a degree of fastidiousness in his personality. In other words, I bet he's just old-school. He isn't one of those Millennial Generation kids who never lkearned to spel beacuae Word fixis it for them, or hu grew ^ UzN txtspk & IRC.

By the way, one of my greatest Internet-misspelling pet-peeves is "looser" for "loser". But here it makes sense.

[Hey this is my hundredth post. Yikes!]

[Gravy]

I'm guessing that's because he's in his 50's and probably learned to type on a manual typewriter. Maybe there is also a degree of fastidiousness in his personality. In other words, I bet he's just old-school. He isn't one of those Millennial Generation kids who never lkearned to spel beacuae Word fixis it for them, or hu grew ^ UzN txtspk & IRC.

By the way, one of my greatest Internet-misspelling pet-peeves is "looser" for "loser". But here it makes sense.

I agree about the fastidious part: he's someone who needs things to be done in a certain way. My one peeve with his writing is the classic "no paragraph" stream-of-consciousness style. Someone remarked that there were no comments on his blog, and it does seem as if he's writing for himself.

I coined "Looser" here in one of my first posts, thinking it would be my one contribution to the Anti-CT cause. It took a while for well-meaning people to stop correcting it.

[qarnos]

Being a Debunker doesn't have a lot of fringe benefits, aside from the Debunker Groupies.

The what?!?!!

Do you have to send away for this or is it done on post count?

[Architect]

Abby however, with her ... "girl next door" good looks could definitely win him over
TAM

Where I come from, that would be classed as "damning with faint praise" and earn you a smack on the gob. But that's Scotland for you........ :p

[Foolmewunz]

[QUOTE=Brainster;1972251]

As for the guy, I doubt if we can turn him. Let's face it, what do we offer him? He can't even run the ticket table for us, since there are no tickets to sell. Being a Denier offers him a sense of being needed, of belonging to a community--with actual meetings. Being a Debunker doesn't have a lot of fringe benefits, aside from the Debunker Groupies.

I'll betcha he can be turned. I've learned to trusty Gravy's heart. (Sorry, Gravy - we won't mention to the rest of the forum, and I'm equally sure no one will see it here. :rolleyes:). If Gravy sees the guy as borderline decent, I'll believe it, and the real desire is to "turn him", it'd be a few steps. You just have to know people, and I'm counting on Gravy's and Abby's above comments, here:
a) Post a couple of caring comments on his blog. He'll be like a kid on Christmas morning with a new bike.
b) Commisserate with him about the rude young 'uns out there.
c) Respect his opinion while doing so, and start to prod for the weak points.
d) Go back next week and hit him in the head with a brick.
(Okay... delete that last one.... I just came from reading Politics...)
d) Go back next week and introduce yourself as the secret soulmate who wrote to him on his blog, and try to really engage him.

I'm in Hong Kong and the firewall nazis at work have me unable to get to almost anything with the word "blog" in it, so I can't get to his blog.

But, I may go do the first step myself, from home tonight, because I write a lot like I speak (which is Borscht Belt Lenny Bruce schpritz) and it's always seemed (well, to people who know me, at any rate) that in a previous life I took creative writing lessons from William S. Burroughs and I have actually been known to string together the occasional stream of consciousness paragraph with little or no regard for traditional punctuation (albeit using serious numbers of parenthetical asides and allusions, not unlike some of the writing you'd get in the Village Voice in the 60's, if you remember those kinds of articles), yet with enough content that it never completely lapses over into complete incoherence, or at least not to people who are accustomed to the genre. (How's that? Think I pass?)

(Except, of course, I'm not likely to be able to go there next week, as it's a bit of a hike.)

Ah, but seriously, folks..... We do have something to offer. Would he rather "belong" with a group who care about him (read your posts, guys!) or a bunch of snot-nosed brats?

[MRC_Hans]

The what?!?!!

Do you have to send away for this or is it done on post count?Well, I can tell you it ain't the post count. .... that counts, so to speak...

Hans

[Foolmewunz]

I spent hours reading Fred's blog last night. I can only say that it's rather touching and rather sad. He's a footsoldier for the movement. But I retract what I said above. He likely can't be turned, but he could be engaged in conversation if anyone has the patience, I'm sure. I think he wouldn't waiver from his beliefs, though. This is his whole r'aison d'etre.

I think I may post something, just to tell him that it's nice to see someone who has more human concerns than rants. But I have no intention to try to convert him.

Oh, well... Not the first time I've leapt before I looked in a post!