NT: Forgiveness is cherrypicking?

[pipelineaudio]

A lot of people see the message of forgiveness as the summation of the new testament. I kind of think that is just cherrypicking

WHat say you?

[drkitten]

A lot of people see the message of forgiveness as the summation of the new testament. I kind of think that is just cherrypicking

What say you?


Well, any "summation" is by definition cherry-picking. If I asked you to tell me about the Star Wars movie, I doubt that you'd mention Captain Antilles, but you'd sure mention Princess Leia.

Jesus is kind enough to provide us with his own summation of the message of the New Testament in Matthew 22:37-40:


37 "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 A second likewise is this,'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'

40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

So as far as I can tell, "forgiveness" isn't bad for a one-word summarization.

[pipelineaudio]

what about all the Paul pages of rules, or the revelations? how do they have to do with forgiveness?

[drkitten]

what about all the Paul pages of rules, or the revelations? how do they have to do with forgiveness?

They're descriptions of how we need to forgive others, and of what we need to do to earn God's forgiveness.

[pipelineaudio]

revalations reads to me of an angry sky dictator who forces you to do certain things then tortures the crap out of you and the rest of humanity for doing the things he made you do

[drkitten]

revalations reads to me of an angry sky dictator who forces you to do certain things then tortures the crap out of you and the rest of humanity for doing the things he made you do

.... which is part of the reason that it's not usually included in one-word summaries of the new testament; because its direct relevance to the central message is kind of limited.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but do you know what the word "summation" means (in a literary context)?

[pipelineaudio]

Maybe I dont have a firm enough grasp on summation

[pipelineaudio]

Alright Im fnding 106 pages of the NIV of Matthew, Mark, Luke and john, containing 56 references to forms of "forgive"

203 pages of paul and revalations and stuff

[drkitten]

Alright Im fnding 106 pages of the NIV of Matthew, Mark, Luke and john, containing 56 references to forms of "forgive"

203 pages of paul and revalations and stuff

Yes, but importance isn't measured by page count. If it were, the most important law in the United States would probably be the tax code, and the Constitution wouldn't even get a look-see. And Shakepeare himself would get lost in the sea of analyses of his writings.

The Pauline letters are essentially commentaries and interpretations on Christ's message as documented through the Gospels.

But what is that message itself?

What's the best one-word summary of the message you can come up with?

[pipelineaudio]

obey god or go to hell

one word I guess?

suffer

[Darth Rotor]

obey god or go to hell

one word I guess?

suffer
You can do that with or without God, so I don't think that is a very complete summation. I also find one word summations of so complex a topic intellectualy lazy. Go for the sentence. :)

DR

[drkitten]

obey god or go to hell

one word I guess?

suffer

But that misses all the stuff about grace and God's infinite willingness to shower blessings upon us if we simply obey him.

From a Christian perspective, "suffer" is what will happen anyway if we don't read the Bible. So it's not a very good summation, because it doesn't say what the message is. (Really, it's a statement of the anti-message, if you want to look at it that way.)

The message, then is not suffering, but how to avoid suffering. And in one word, "forgiveness."

[pipelineaudio]

How to avoid suffering seems to me to be only a part of it

The main message is that many will suffer

Most if not all of revalations describes the suffering, not how to avoid it

The rest tells about a god who causes suffering, and how he sent himeself down to suffer so that he could impress himself.

Also some "miracles" IOW stories of how the cause of suffering removed the suffering for some

[Darth Rotor]

How to avoid suffering seems to me to be only a part of it

The main message is that many will suffer

Most if not all of revalations describes the suffering, not how to avoid it

The rest tells about a god who causes suffering, and how he sent himeself down to suffer so that he could impress himself.

Also some "miracles" IOW stories of how the cause of suffering removed the suffering for some
"There is no evil in Lothlaurien, but that which you bring with you."

If that is what you want to find in the Bible, suffering, that is what you will see.

I take it you have read the entirety of the Bible, OT and NT, and studied it in detail?

Have you?

DR

[pipelineaudio]

"There is no evil in Lothlaurien, but that which you bring with you."

If that is what you want to find in the Bible, suffering, that is what you will see.

I take it you have read the entirety of the Bible, OT and NT, and studied it in detail?

Have you?

DR

Yes, I have. I believe I am no dummy when it comes to the bible. However, I tried in this thread to say new testament. It is without argument (I would hope) that the OT god is so obviously evil, that forgiveness wouldnt be bothered to be brought up if taking it as a whole

I say NT, because so many christians believe Jesus wiped out the old stuff, and they have supporting verses (though of course there are also verses to say the OT still applies).

[Darth Rotor]

Yes, I have. I believe I am no dummy when it comes to the bible. However, I tried in this thread to say new testament. It is without argument (I would hope) that the OT god is so obviously evil, that forgiveness wouldnt be bothered to be brought up if taking it as a whole

I say NT, because so many christians believe Jesus wiped out the old stuff, and they have supporting verses (though of course there are also verses to say the OT still applies).
OK. My take on it is that Jesus was trying to achieve a course correction on a ship that had sailed off in the wrong direction. (The Hebrew practices of the time.) The attributed statements of his in the Gospels point to him referring to the older law and "reminding" folks of applicability to their current situation. (OT Law is still the law people! ) That makes it hard for me to agree with the position on the OT you depict, but I won't argue that with you. I have heard it from others, both Christian and non Christian, tied to a New Covenant. As I uderstand that point, the New Covenant was to replace the old Covenant (the deal between God and Man) via this course correction. The schools of thought and argument on that fill up volumes. :)

So, your point of contention is that the New Testament is all about suffering?

Have you been reading a lot of Revelations lately? :)

DR

[c4ts]

Well, any "summation" is by definition cherry-picking. If I asked you to tell me about the Star Wars movie, I doubt that you'd mention Captain Antilles, but you'd sure mention Princess Leia.

You mean the cranky Red Leader? I hear he blew up 42 children because they called him "baldhead."

[pipelineaudio]

hopefully we can stick to NT

[Skeptical Greg]

They're descriptions of how we need to forgive others, and of what we need to do to earn God's forgiveness.


Just so I understand..

The only difference between two murderers, could be as simple as, God has forgiven one of them ?
( Having earned it , of course.. )


Uhh, huhh...:rolleyes:

[Apathia]

Of course what gets missed in the reading, especially by Fundamentalist Christians, is that there is nothing you can do to earn Grace. You only need accept it and place yourself under it.

[Ryokan]

Yes, love thy neighbor. But who is your neighbor? Is everyone your neighbor?

Not according to the parable of the good Samaritan. Only those who are good to you is your neighbor.

[Ryokan]

You mean the cranky Red Leader? I hear he blew up 42 children because they called him "baldhead."

No, that's Wedge Antilles.

Captain Antilles is the captain of Leia's ship at the beginning of the first movie.

[FreakBoy]

Of course what gets missed in the reading, especially by Fundamentalist Christians, is that there is nothing you can do to earn Grace. You only need accept it and place yourself under it.

No intention to argue the validity of your statement. Doesn't this statement illustrate the unfortunate cherrypickability that is the nature of biblical interpretation?

I recall having seen Christians argue both sides of this statement.

I'll also admit that my knowledge of the NT is currently limited to the gospels.

[Darat]

Yes, love thy neighbor. But who is your neighbor? Is everyone your neighbor?

Not according to the parable of the good Samaritan. Only those who are good to you is your neighbor.

Well I think you could make a good argument from context that the use of "neighbour" by Jesus refers to other Jews.

[RenaissanceBiker]

"The old testament describes these people's god before he got religion, and the new testament describes him after."
Mark Twain

[Apathia]

No intention to argue the validity of your statement. Doesn't this statement illustrate the unfortunate cherrypickability that is the nature of biblical interpretation?

I recall having seen Christians argue both sides of this statement.

I'll also admit that my knowledge of the NT is currently limited to the gospels.

Actually this is one of the few things the NT says with any clarity (thanks to Paul) But then, of course even if the NT were written out in clear doctrinal propositions, believers would still generate a plethora of other views and cherrypick to support them.

Thomas Jefferson took sissiors and glue and made his own personal Bible.
Most of us here would probably approve of most of the cherries in his basket.

Is far as I'm cocerned cherrypicking in the Bible is preferable to swallowing the whole whale, or on the otherhand burning the Book.

[Blutarsky]

Well I think you could make a good argument from context that the use of "neighbour" by Jesus refers to other Jews.

The Samaritan was considered detestable by the average jew. The point of the story was in helping even someone whom you consider an enemy or below you.

[ceo_esq]

The Samaritan was considered detestable by the average jew. The point of the story was in helping even someone whom you consider an enemy or below you.

I agree that this does seem to be the most reasonable and persuasive interpretation.

[Ryokan]

The Samaritan was considered detestable by the average jew. The point of the story was in helping even someone whom you consider an enemy or below you.

But Jesus says in that parabla that the Samaritan was the neighbour, not those that came before him and wouldn't help.

I believe the story is clear. Not everyone is your neighbour, only those that are good to you.

[Blutarsky]

This has to be the WORST interpretation of this scripture I have ever seen. It makes me wonder if this being done in jest...

Where in the bible does it equate neighbor with someone who is "good to you?" in fact, when Jesus used the term "neighbor" it was usually in reference to humanity in general. It was a term that everyone could relate to. I have often had "neighbors" who drove me insane and whom I would never consider as "good to me."

Jews notoriously hated Samaritans, that was why a Samaritan was used as an example...I believe he was making the statement that "all men" are now considered your neighbor; even the ones you have traditionally hated.

[Darat]

This has to be the WORST interpretation of this scripture I have ever seen. It makes me wonder if this in being done in jest...

Where in the bible does it equate neighbor with someone who is "good to you?" Jews notoriously hated Samaritans, that was why a Samaritan was used as an example...I believe he was making the statement that "all men" are now considered your neighbor; even the ones you have traditionally hated.

Or that even in the bad there can be good, or.... what a pity he didn't just come and say exactly what he meant! Pah mystics...

[HeavyAaron]

But Jesus says in that parabla that the Samaritan was the neighbour, not those that came before him and wouldn't help.

I believe the story is clear. Not everyone is your neighbour, only those that are good to you.

That's a rather bizzare interpritation in my oppinion. I see how it could be interprited that way. The man asks "who is my neighbor", Jesus tells the story and then asks who was a neighbor. The person answered "The one who had mercy on him" meaning the Samaritan.

And just with that much I can see where you'd get your interpritation. But the very next part Jusus says, "Go and do likewise." I'd be hard pressed to consider the likewise anything but "have mercy on others" as the Samaritan did as it follows the statement, "The one who had mercy on him."

Wouldn't it also be an odd story to choose to tell if the moral was "do good to those that do good to you?" The greater context would include other things that Jesus said, such as the Golden Rule or "If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same" from the Beatitudes.

Aaron

[Darat]

This has to be the WORST interpretation of this scripture I have ever seen. It makes me wonder if this being done in jest...

Where in the bible does it equate neighbor with someone who is "good to you?" in fact, when Jesus used the term "neighbor" it was usually in reference to humanity in general. It was a term that everyone could relate to. I have often had "neighbors" who drove me insane and whom I would never consider as "good to me."

Jews notoriously hated Samaritans, that was why a Samaritan was used as an example...I believe he was making the statement that "all men" are now considered your neighbor; even the ones you have traditionally hated.

Just to get back to the wider use of the term "neighbour" - given the Gospels I still maintain the best interpretation for "neighbour" is a fellow Jew.

For instance Matthew 10 (New International Version)

5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.

[Blutarsky]

Here are my two cents:


25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and made trial of him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 And he said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbor? 30 Jesus made answer and said, A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho; and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance a certain priest was going down that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And in like manner a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he was moved with compassion, 34 and came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on [them] oil and wine; and he set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow he took out two shillings, and gave them to the host, and said, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, I, when I come back again, will repay thee. 36 Which of these three, thinkest thou, proved neighbor unto him that fell among the robbers? 37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. And Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Above is the direct text from Luke. The story of the Samaritan was in DIRECT response to the question, "And who is my neighbor?" Samaritans WERE NOT Jews; so the idea that Jesus told them to help on their neighbors seems not to fit.

Jesus takes the opportunity to incorporate the most vile person a Jew could associate with and equates him to your neighbor. He didn't illustrate with a Samaritan for giggles, it was to make a sharp point to the reader.

What was Jesus' response when he was asked "Who is my neighbor?" He tells them to find the most repulsive person on earth and show them kindness...

Neighbour - plhsivon

a friend
any other person, and where two are concerned, the other (thy fellow man, thy neighbour), according to the Jews, any member of the Hebrew nation and commonwealth
according to Christ, any other man irrespective of nation or religion with whom we live or whom we chance to meet

[ceo_esq]

But Jesus says in that parabla that the Samaritan was the neighbour, not those that came before him and wouldn't help.

No, Jesus did not say that. Jesus asks which of the men acted as a neighbor should (neighborly behavior, it is suggested, consisting in doing good and manifesting compassion). What he then says is "Go, and do thou likewise."


I believe the story is clear. Not everyone is your neighbour, only those that are good to you.

Rather, only those who do good to you are acting as neighbors ought to act.

If this really how you've always understood the parable, you might want to consider suspending all of your current opinions regarding the Bible pending a serious re-evaluation. Just as a precaution, you understand.

[Blutarsky]

I second that. This is a clear example of "cherrypicking," but not as the OP intended.

[Ryokan]

If this really how you've always understood the parable, you might want to consider suspending all of your current opinions regarding the Bible pending a serious re-evaluation. Just as a precaution, you understand.

Which of these three, thinkest thou, proved neighbor unto him that fell among the robbers? And he said, He that showed mercy on him. And Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

I still say that it's obvious to me that Jesus is saying that in this particular story, the priest and the Levite is not being a neighbor. Hence, not all humans are neighbors.

[Blutarsky]

No. Not all humans treat all other humans like they are their neighbor (someone you would presumably care for). The word is used as an adjective in the sentence, not a noun, maybe that's your error.

To act neighborly and to be a neighbor are two different things. The scripture clearly is asking which is "acting neighborly."