New Gravy paper: WTC 7 and the Lies of the 9/11 "Truth Movement"

[Gravy]

Available temporarily here: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=187763 (8 Mb .doc file) and here: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=187766 (3.8 Mb PDF).

As always, the .doc file looks much better. In the PDF version, only the hyperlinks that look like URLs are clickable. Anyone know a fix for that, beyond changing all the text links to "http..."?

Please don't link to this until it has a permanent home. Anyone is welcome to host, and I'll contact Mike at 9/11 Myths.

–Mark

[Kent1]

Available temporarily here: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=187763 (8 Mb .doc file) and here: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=187766 (3.8 Mb PDF).

As always, the .doc file looks much better. In the PDF version, only the hyperlinks that look like URLs are clickable. Anyone know a fix for that, beyond changing all the text links to "http..."?

Please don't link to this until it has a permanent home. Anyone is welcome to host, and I'll contact Mike at 9/11 Myths.

–Mark

Great job on some of those firefigher quotes. I really like how you put the information together on that aspect.

[LashL]

Available temporarily here: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=187763 (8 Mb .doc file) and here: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=187766 (3.8 Mb PDF).

As always, the .doc file looks much better. In the PDF version, only the hyperlinks that look like URLs are clickable. Anyone know a fix for that, beyond changing all the text links to "http..."?

Please don't link to this until it has a permanent home. Anyone is welcome to host, and I'll contact Mike at 9/11 Myths.

–Mark

I'm up to page 60 so far.... Great work, Mark.

:)

[einsteen]

Here an image for the cover page

http://wtc2001ny.tripod.com/wtc-7.jpg.html

ps. collapsed pic probably from 9/13

[Shrinker]

Here an image for the cover page

http://wtc2001ny.tripod.com/wtc-7.jpg.html

ps. collapsed pic probably from 9/13

...where you will see that the small building to the north is clearly standing in WTC7's footprint.

Great work Gravy. Well, the bits I've had time to read are great. The confrontation with Alex Jones is hilarious.

[Gravy]

Here an image for the cover page

http://wtc2001ny.tripod.com/wtc-7.jpg.html

ps. collapsed pic probably from 9/13
Thanks, but I tried to use photos taken as soon as possible after the collapse.

I'm interested to know what you think of all the eyewitness accounts.

[einsteen]

I think eyewitnesses are important and as much info as possible should be written down

[twinstead]

Those people make me sick. Nice work Gravy.

Those are the people who are going to save us and expose us to the real 'truth'? I don't think so.

einsteen and troothydude1234 I would be totally embarassed to be associated with them if I were you.

[T.A.M.]

cant wait to see the CTers debunking of it...

Jon Gold: i don't like "Gravy", so obviously the paper is a pile of disinformation. Paper officially debunked.

lol

TAM

[Gravy]

cant wait to see the CTers debunking of it...

Jon Gold: i don't like "Gravy", so obviously the paper is a pile of disinformation. Paper officially debunked.

lol

TAM
Have you seen a photo of him? I have a feeling he asks for extra gravy!

[boloboffin]

Thank you, thank you.

[T.A.M.]

He looks more like an angry biker rejected by the Hells Angels to me...but I am sure he loves his "Gravy".;)

[Pardalis]

Wow. I skimmed through it and it looks like a heck of a great document. Can't wait to read it more thouroughly.

After the Amazing Randi, here comes the Amazing Gravy! :)

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Thank you, thank you.

Ditto. Very nicely done!

[Class]

The .doc version was too big to upload, so here's a mirror (http://sclass.chronicmunchies.com/stuff/Roberts_WTC7_Lies.pdf) for the .pdf version.

EDIT: Forgot to add, very nice work!

[chipmunk stew]

:jaw-dropp

Mark, you've outdone yourself. I just read through most of it (skimming over some sections), and if this doesn't pull people back from the brink, nothing will.

WTC7 was their most alluring myth. Not anymore.

Fantastic!

[Pardalis]

Someone should email this document to Matthew Horton Woodson.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65684

ETA: I really mean it, if my English was any better, I would do it myself.

[Abbyas]

Perfect, Mark. ****** Perfect.

Easy to read, comprehensively and visually. Humorous when it needs to be and serious when called for. The science is clear, and the layout is great.

Very, very nice work. Thank you for this. I will be using it.

[Lurker]

I just finished reading the pdf doc, Gravy. Very well done. But I do have a complaint. Where the heck were you when I was having this email deabte with a friend of mine about WTC7. Your paper and entensive quotes/pics would have come in handy. Now I just feel stupid as I can just send him your link which does a far better job than I did after about 75 emails.

Kudos for a job done.

[Hutch]

Have you seen a photo of him? I have a feeling he asks for extra gravy!


Hey....Hey....Hey..., I resemble that remark!! :p ;) :D

[tacodaemon]

Gravy, you've got a great point when you mention how the "truthers" have some kind of allergy to editing down their videos. I wish these people didn't have such outright contempt for the written word, so I wouldn't have to sit through their long, boring videos to try to see what they're talking about now. I can read fast, but it's not like I can speed up their videos ... actually, come to think of it, maybe that would make them more entertaining to watch.

[R.Mackey]

Available temporarily here: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=187763 (8 Mb .doc file) and here: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=187766 (3.8 Mb PDF).

Just got through reading it. A tour de force to be sure. Great job.

Like you, the thing that angers me the most is how these people slander the very firefighters who risked (and gave) their lives. And all for no reason, other than they want their fiction to be true, want it so badly that they distort, lie, and willingly play along with their "friends" who do.

I don't understand the vocal component. It's like having a dumb kid in class who always always shoots up his hand to answer the teacher's question, but is completely unprepared and dead wrong every time. But does that stop him? No, he does it over and over and over again, every day, for years.

I never saw a kid like that, not one. Most people keep quiet when they don't know anything. I have no idea where these people come from.

[Bell]

Gravy, you've got a great point when you mention how the "truthers" have some kind of allergy to editing down their videos. I wish these people didn't have such outright contempt for the written word, so I wouldn't have to sit through their long, boring videos to try to see what they're talking about now. I can read fast, but it's not like I can speed up their videos ... actually, come to think of it, maybe that would make them more entertaining to watch.

Like this fast clip in which Gravy takes on a dozen or so troofers.

ETA: do'h... this clip (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-560154472029970169)

[CurtC]

Of course, it can go into the loosechangeguide.com site.

I still think the format of a DOC file, or PDF, is inconvenient for anyone but the most dedicated reader. Any interest in an HTML version?

[Brainster]

Great job, Gravy! Loved the part where you showed all the firefighters using the words "pull" or "pulled"; very effective!

[Deus Ex Machina]

Perfect, Mark. ****** Perfect.

Easy to read, comprehensively and visually. Humorous when it needs to be and serious when called for. The science is clear, and the layout is great.

Very, very nice work. Thank you for this. I will be using it.

yep, let me add my inadequate words of praise for a job well done. EXCELLENT!!

[Hutch]

Just finished scaning it Gravy, and very well done indeed.

At times your passion in opposing these...well, I guess I must call them gentlemen, although both parts of the word is in some doubt...comes out and interferes in your review, but by and large it is a dispassionate review of the events and the CT'ers and the putrid mess they spew.

My admiration for your patience and wilingness to do this is only enhanced by this--kudos to you, and Brainster, and MarkyX , and CurtC, and of course Abbyas and all those who fight against ignorance.

If I may suggest, if the FD of NY has a website or Forum, I am sure many of the Firefighters would like to read this online.

Most Satisfactory, as a certain fictional New Yorker might have said.

[steve s]

Kudos. I haven't read through the entire thing but I skimmed through it. Love your comments about Bermas. It's amazing they let him loose in public. Keep up the good work.

Steve S.

[tacodaemon]

By the way, Gravy, if you can get your hands on the archived CNN video from 9/11, there's some additional evidence on there that WTC 7's collapse was expected -- the expected collapse was mentioned by the anchor (I think it was Aaron Brown) a couple of times starting about 70 minutes before the collapse actually happened, and they trained a camera on the building because they were waiting for collapse to happen eventually. I saw this on the rebroadcast on 9/11 of this year but unfortunately I wasn't vidcapping it.

[Kent1]

I noticed that you have a much better photo than Steven Jones uses in his paper on page 19. It's on page 95 on your paper. Jones uses this photo to suggest that the workers may be looking at molten steel.
http://www.st911.org/

[CurtC]

By the way, Mark, the loosechangeguide.com site has collected enough in Paypal donations to cover the whole first year of expenses, so I've taken the Paypal link down.

[LashL]

The .doc version was too big to upload, so here's a mirror (http://sclass.chronicmunchies.com/stuff/Roberts_WTC7_Lies.pdf) for the .pdf version.

EDIT: Forgot to add, very nice work!

Thank you for the mirror site with the pdf. That actually showed up better and made the rest of the reading much easier. Plus, it showed all the photos, which were not all showing in the .doc version that I started reading last night.

Mark, I've now finished reading the whole thing and - wow - terrific work!!!

[JamesB]

I noticed that you have a much better photo than Steven Jones uses in his paper on page 19. It's on page 95 on your paper. Jones uses this photo to suggest that the workers may be looking at molten steel.
http://www.st911.org/

I made a post on the paper and that pic on SLC. Excellent work.

[mcMike]

I made a post on the paper and that pic on SLC. Excellent work.

Can anyone validate where's this original photo from? It seems like Jones faked the photo with postprocessing but I would like to first see evidence of unprocessed source. Thanks.

[Orphia Nay]

Awesome.

There is only one Mark Roberts, no matter how much we all wish we are all Mark Roberts (and no matter how much the deniers wish we all are too).

[sleahead]

McMike, Look at the screwlooschange site where the two images are side by side.

JamesB, the I think the original caption for this photograph in Jones' paper was something like "firefighters peering into the yellow-white hot core" and, as you know, it has now been changed to "Workers evidently peering into the hot "core" under the WTC rubble". Evidently, Jones is trying to use the word evidently to get himself off the hook on this one.

Gravy, fantastic job with the new document. Well done.

[jsiv]

How clever of you to print our NWO disinformation instructions on gravy paper! Not even the KGB thought of that!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have about 30 pages left to eat.

[Gravy]

Can anyone validate where's this original photo from? It seems like Jones faked the photo with postprocessing but I would like to first see evidence of unprocessed source. Thanks.
The original is number 5575 in the series "Here is New York. (http://hereisnewyork.org/gallery/)" The photographers in that series are anonymous.

Great catch, Kent1. I revised the paper to include a side-by-side comparison. (current version here (http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=188500)). 911myths.com is going to host it.

[Gravy]

Of course, it can go into the loosechangeguide.com site.
I still think the format of a DOC file, or PDF, is inconvenient for anyone but the most dedicated reader. Any interest in an HTML version?
I agree, but not being skilled at coding, and too lazy to learn, I have to defer to others!

By the way, Mark, the loosechangeguide.com site has collected enough in Paypal donations to cover the whole first year of expenses, so I've taken the Paypal link down.
Well done, Curt. (I hope you kept enough to buy yourself a beer.)

[SwissSkeptic]

Just finished reading. Thank you for your excellent work Gravy.

[Shrinker]

The Loosers have unearthed a new photo of WTC 7 here http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m177/wassertanzen13/wtc%207/146552363_51b55b15ed_o.jpg

(Grab a copy while you, the guy who uploaded the picks admits gross copyright infringment)

For some reason they don't want to see the huge gash in the south face of the building.

If you compare it to the Steve Spak picture http://www.debunking911.com/7wtc.jpg it looks like the hole is almost the full length of the building.

[Gravy]

The Loosers have unearthed a new photo of WTC 7 here http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m177/wassertanzen13/wtc%207/146552363_51b55b15ed_o.jpg

(Grab a copy while you, the guy who uploaded the picks admits gross copyright infringment)

For some reason they don't want to see the huge gash in the south face of the building.

If you compare it to the Steve Spak picture http://www.debunking911.com/7wtc.jpg it looks like the hole is almost the full length of the building.
The damage we see in both those photos is to the SW corner of WTC 7, not the much larger damage that some witnesses reported in the center of the building. Other photos show large damage in the top 15 floors, but I haven't seen anything from lower down: too much smoke.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Dagnabbit Gravy! Get thee to Chicagoland so I can buy you a pint already! :woo

[mcMike]

The original is number 5575 in the series Here "Is newYork" The photographers in that series are anonymous.


Thanks Gravy. I checked them my self in Photoshop to see that Jones photo is cropped and looks postprocessed. Still preferred to see original source. And btw, nice job with WTC7-essey. Great material to fight Tinhats here in Finland ;)

[Shrinker]

The damage we see in both those photos is to the SW corner of WTC 7, not the much larger damage that some witnesses reported in the center of the building. Other photos show large damage in the top 15 floors, but I haven't seen anything from lower down: too much smoke.

I'm going to try something a little scary: respectful disagreement with Gravy :eek:

The damage is some disance in. I counted 14 windows here, to check that the corner is where it appears to be.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/3617452b7d286a2e7.jpg

That means the damage is on the south face. The distace from the southwest corner is almost half the width of the east face. It's impossible to guess the placement of the southeast corner in this photo, but that gash could be as much a 1/4 of the distance across the south face.

Of course this must be superficial damage since it doesn't appear in the NIST diagrams, but my guess is that this gash connects to the hole in the Steve Spak photo in a kind of huge L shape. I guess I just need to find one more photo, to make that connection.

[Mancman]

Fantastic piece of work Gravy.

[Gravy]

Shrinker, I agree that it's on the south face, and seems to correspond to the damage higher up in the photo below, but that's still a ways from the wide area that NIST and some eyewitnesses described in the center of the building. I wonder if better photos will turn up when the NIST investigation is over.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879045095ccfd1d8d.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879045095ccfa338b.jpg

[Oliver]

Fantastic piece of work, Gravy - congratulations to you and your efforts! :)

[chipmunk stew]

I agree, but not being skilled at coding, and too lazy to learn, I have to defer to others!


Well done, Curt. (I hope you kept enough to buy yourself a beer.)
"Too lazy to learn"? Pish posh! You claim laziness in THIS thread? You crazy, man.

[Shrinker]

Shrinker, I agree that it's on the south face, and seems to correspond to the damage higher up in the photo below, but that's still a ways from the wide area that NIST and some eyewitnesses described in the center of the building. I wonder if better photos will turn up when the NIST investigation is over.


Aha, thanks Gravy. I didn't know this damage had already been shown.

[Oliver]

Pish posh!

Translation, please... :D Gee, i hate my translator... :boggled:

[chipmunk stew]

Translation, please... :D Gee, i hate my translator... :boggled:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pish+posh
:)

[Oliver]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pish+posh
:)

Thank you Chipmunk Stew - it´s alway a pleasure to read your posts. :D

[Popeholden]

nice work gravy. i sent an e-mail to les jamieson as you requested.

[cloudshipsrule]

I recall, about a year or so ago, seeing an image of WTC7 with a huge hole, spanning what looked like half of the building's height and a quarter of it's width on the damaged side.

I'll look for the image on the Net.

I wonder if the image posted above by Gravy was the 'before', and perhaps that hole grew much larger due to localized collapse of that damaged part of the building before the entire building collapsed sometime later in the day??

[rikzilla]

Wow Mark!
Just wow!

When I get to meet you at GZ some weekend you must let me buy you the other 5 beers that that dimwit welching CTard owes you!

-z

[chipmunk stew]

I recall, about a year or so ago, seeing an image of WTC7 with a huge hole, spanning what looked like half of the building's height and a quarter of it's width on the damaged side.

I'll look for the image on the Net.

I wonder if the image posted above by Gravy was the 'before', and perhaps that hole grew much larger due to localized collapse of that damaged part of the building before the entire building collapsed sometime later in the day??
A clear image of the damage on the south side of WTC7 is like the holy grail of 9/11 information gathering. I hope you find it, but I don't hold out much hope that you will by surfing the 'net.

But who knows? Maybe you saw it on a somewhat obscure site whose owners don't realize there's any controversy around it. Good luck--I sincerely hope you can dig it up.

[cloudshipsrule]

I believe I've found a video still of the damage I was refering to. About 3/4 of the way down this page is a video still with the words 'Breaking News' below it. Through the smoke one can, i believe, make out a huge gash in the building. I'll keep looking for a better image. Perhaps it was an obscure website that I saw it on.

[Gravy]

I recall, about a year or so ago, seeing an image of WTC7 with a huge hole, spanning what looked like half of the building's height and a quarter of it's width on the damaged side.

I'll look for the image on the Net.

I wonder if the image posted above by Gravy was the 'before', and perhaps that hole grew much larger due to localized collapse of that damaged part of the building before the entire building collapsed sometime later in the day??
I wonder if that's not 130 Liberty Street (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/images/engineering_img_b_130libertyst.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/engineering/engineering_buildings_05.html&h=210&w=203&sz=13&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=GzCOJxu_ffTwXM:&tbnh=106&tbnw=102&prev=/images%3Fq%3D130%2Bliberty%2Bstreet%26svnum%3D50%2 6hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_en%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Do ff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN) (Bankers Trust/Deutsche Bank Building) you're talking about, which had similar damage to what you describe but minor fires. It's in the process of being torn down.

And the video you mean is this one, but this is about as good a still as one can get from it. This damage is bad enough, but witnesses describe worse damage lower down.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879044bd1b32e04c8.jpg

[Earthborn]

I agree, but not being skilled at coding, and too lazy to learn, I have to defer to others!Assuming you have a GMail account*, a tip: Google Page Creator (http://pages.google.com). Shouldn't be too hard to convert what you have now into something more browserfriendly.

* If not, let me know. I'll send you an invite.

[LashL]

I agree, but not being skilled at coding, and too lazy to learn, I have to defer to others!


I'll code it and put it into a browser friendly format if you like, Gravy.

[MikeW]

WTC7 Lies now has a permanent home at http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Lies.doc and http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Lies.pdf . The PDF version converts more of the links than Gravy's original, but there are still a few that don't work, so the .DOC version is preferable for anyone who can read it.

[VespaGuy]

Available temporarily here: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=187763 (8 Mb .doc file) and here: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=187766 (3.8 Mb PDF).

[snip]


Just finished reading it. Simply amazing Gravy.

I've been following the "Truth Movement" since Delphi started the Loose Change thread many months ago. I've silently watched the original thread become a hydra. I've watched as members, like yourself, joined JREF and added a level of knowledge and dedication to debunking these jerks that I can only envy.

As with everything you've done so far, excellent work.

[CurtC]

Here's a first-pass (http://curtcam.googlepages.com/home) of the Google Page Creator version of this paper. It doesn't have images yet, but I just copied from Word and pasted into GPC, and the font sizes, formatting, and even the hyperlinks work!

What you see here at this point literally took about two minutes.

[Panoply_Prefect]

Hows that Google-created webpage version coming? Has it found a home? Is it done? (And great work, while Im at it!)

Cheers,
Chrysis

[Gravy]

Hows that Google-created webpage version coming? Has it found a home? Is it done? (And great work, while Im at it!)

Cheers,
Chrysis

Here's a first-pass (http://curtcam.googlepages.com/home) of the Google Page Creator version of this paper. It doesn't have images yet, but I just copied from Word and pasted into GPC, and the font sizes, formatting, and even the hyperlinks work!

What you see here at this point literally took about two minutes.
Mother of pearl! I didn't see your post, Curt! I'll get on that this weekend.

[Orphia Nay]

:bump2

Looking forward to the html version, and trying to keep this thread visible.

[gumboot]

So far I have read just the introduction. Thus far the only comment I have is:

pwned!

-Gumboot

[CurtC]

Mother of pearl! I didn't see your post, Curt! I'll get on that this weekend.
I started adding the graphics to it, and split it up into several pages. However, I ran into one problem - the Google Page Creator can handle only so much content on a single page, that you can't edit the stuff below a certain point, nor even see it. One of the pages was much longer than the limit, so I was going to have to split it. Then I got distracted.

The resultant HTML code is also pretty much impossible to hand-tweak. The result looks pretty on their site, but taking it to another site seems like it might be a problem.

[CurtC]

By the way, here are the pages of the work in progress:

http://curtcam.googlepages.com/wtc7
http://curtcam.googlepages.com/wtc7p1
http://curtcam.googlepages.com/wtc7p2
http://curtcam.googlepages.com/wtc7p3
http://curtcam.googlepages.com/wtc7p4

[snagswolf]

Great work Gravy. Thanks for taking the time to do all that. It's going to come in handy.

BTW, not sure if everyone's seen this, but it's a newly released video of the towers collapsing from an apartment only 500 yards away. It's very emotional.

If you drag the slider to the 19:40 mark, and watch the north tower collapse, you can clearly see some of the debris arcing out and striking WTC 7.

Whoops, forgot the link:

I can't post links yet.

[gumboot]

Just curious, have you purposefully reproduced the troothers' pamphlet really small? Just thinking the website would be a perfect opportunity to make it enlarged when you click on it, if you wanted to do that.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Great work Gravy. Thanks for taking the time to do all that. It's going to come in handy.

BTW, not sure if everyone's seen this, but it's a newly released video of the towers collapsing from an apartment only 500 yards away. It's very emotional.

If you drag the slider to the 19:40 mark, and watch the north tower collapse, you can clearly see some of the debris arcing out and striking WTC 7.Thanks. I linked to that in my paper, but should have included the time.

[snagswolf]

Link for the video above will be in the next post.

[snagswolf]

Link for video above:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2027968455917231364&q=plane+hitting+tower&hl=en

[snagswolf]

Thanks. I linked to that in my paper, but should have included the time.
Sorry, didn't get to that part in your paper yet.

[Gravy]

Just curious, have you purposefully reproduced the troothers' pamphlet really small? Just thinking the website would be a perfect opportunity to make it enlarged when you click on it, if you wanted to do that.

-GumbootYes, it's only meant to be a visual device. I wrote a separate paper on their literature months ago, but there's nothing in it that would be new to you. Good idea about making it clickable!