Alright, People. Did Roosevelt know about Pearl Harbor or what?

[Abbyas]

Okey doke,

So on page 121 of this huge file, comments are made that Roosevelt had information about Pearl Harbor that he did not pass on to the appropriate individuals.

http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/olc/docs/2001NDAA.pdf


Someone help me. I don't want to become one of them.

[CurtC]

It looks to me like people who were in charge of the Pearl Harbor forces would have liked to have intelligence info that others in the government had. That's a long way from saying that Roosevelt, or anyone else, knew that the attack would happen and chose to let it, for political reasons.

[G-K-4]

Abby,

Read that again. I think it's saying that these two military men should have their reputations restored because they didn't screw up any more than anyone else in the U.S. military at the time.

I haven't read the report from which they are quoting. But I wouldn't be surprised if someone else here has.

[kookbreaker]

The document says this:

(3) Numerous investigations following the attack on Pearl
Harbor have documented that Admiral Kimmel and Lieutenant
General Short were not provided necessary and critical intelligence
that was available, that foretold of war with Japan,
that warned of imminent attack, and that would have alerted
them to prepare for the attack, including such essential communiques
as the Japanese Pearl Harbor Bomb Plot message of
September 24, 1941, and the message sent from the Imperial
Japanese Foreign Ministry to the Japanese Ambassador in
the United States from December 6 to 7, 1941, known as
the Fourteen-Part Message.

First of all, 'foretold of war with Japan', does not equal 'Surprise attack at Pearl Harbor'. The US had good intelligence that Japan was planning war, but the smart money would have been at the Phillipines. The Japanese Navy didn't exactly keep its diplomatic staff in the US informed, hence the fact that they felt little urgency in getting their declaration of war to the US secretary of State.

Also keep in mind that while we had broken codes, it still took time to decode them and then translate them for exactly what they said. With a certain level of work you could tell what the message was about, in general terms, but it took more work to get an idea of where and attack was taking place.

[Darat]

Okey doke,

So on page 121 of this huge file, comments are made that Roosevelt had information about Pearl Harbor that he did not pass on to the appropriate individuals.

http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/olc/docs/2001NDAA.pdf


Someone help me. I don't want to become one of them.

I am pretty sure that someone thought to inform Roosevelt about the attack on Pearl Harbor...

(Sorry finding it incredibly hard to keep taking these things conspiracies seriously.)

[defaultdotxbe]

even if they had intercepted the plans to attack pearl harbor, and decoded them, the literal text of the messege still probably not tell you enough information, AFAIK the military never uses actual place names, they have a code word

in order to figure out what the code word for a place is, you usually decrypt the messege, then wait to find out where the acitvities mentioned happen, then look for that code word again in future messeges

so they probably would not have known japanese code word for pearl harbor until after the attack had taken place

[Regnad Kcin]

Just a reminder, for what it's worth: FDR was former Secretary of the Navy. Suggesting he had foreknowledge of a Pearl Harbor attack plan which likely would (and did) destroy so much in the way of equipment, materials, and lives and did nothing in response remains an astounding accusation.

[Brainster]

I have read the Toland book, and even there it is far from clear that Roosevelt or naval intelligence knew the attack was coming. It appears pretty obvious that matters were building to a head, but had Roosevelt known about Pearl Harbor he would have made sure that fewer ships were at port that day. The attack was devastating to the Pacific fleet.

[Kent1]

I have read the Toland book, and even there it is far from clear that Roosevelt or naval intelligence knew the attack was coming. It appears pretty obvious that matters were building to a head, but had Roosevelt known about Pearl Harbor he would have made sure that fewer ships were at port that day. The attack was devastating to the Pacific fleet.

Tolands book is a classic work of typical Conspiracy Theory.
One of the most famous examples in his book is a diary (by Meijer Ranneft) he uses to "prove" that the US knew that the attack was coming.
Toland claims the diary states these ships were northwest of Honolulu. Later, Toland claims the diary states the ships were north. However, among other problems with the story, the diary (photo in hardback version, removed in later paperback printings) states “beW. Honolulu.” meaning “Westerly of”.
Current Robert Stinnett has the most famous CT book called Day of Deceit.
It reads like a Alex Jones article. However I would say Stinnett is often worse. Simply going to the footnotes and tracking down the sources debunks most every major claim in the book.

A good place to go is the Pearl Harbor Message boards
http://pearlharborattacked.com/
There are some real experts there.

[Kent1]

The document says this:



First of all, 'foretold of war with Japan', does not equal 'Surprise attack at Pearl Harbor'. The US had good intelligence that Japan was planning war, but the smart money would have been at the Phillipines. The Japanese Navy didn't exactly keep its diplomatic staff in the US informed, hence the fact that they felt little urgency in getting their declaration of war to the US secretary of State.

Also keep in mind that while we had broken codes, it still took time to decode them and then translate them for exactly what they said. With a certain level of work you could tell what the message was about, in general terms, but it took more work to get an idea of where and attack was taking place.
Most of the debate is over code JN-25b. In short they only decripted about 7% prior to the PH attack. The first decripts are available at the National Archives numbered and dated 1-100. The decript date on file 1 is Jan 8th 1942. Some very partical decripts were made before then, however they had little inteligent value.

[Loss Leader]

I think it is important to remember that an air assault on an island naval base was as impossible on December 6, 1941 as hijacking airplanes and flying them into skyscrapers was on September 10, 2001. Nobody thought such a thing could happen.

Now, the US had pretty good intelligence that the Japanese were planning some sort of hostilities before Pearl Harbor. We knew this because US, UK and Russian forces had been skirmishing with the Japanese since 1918. We knew they wanted the Pacific, we knew they thought they deserved the Pacific and we knew they were building a navy to dominate the Pacific.

But does that mean that we knew about Pearl Harbor? I don't think that logically follows.

And even if we did, keeping all our ships tethered close together three abreast in long rows was the best strategy we had. It was, in fact, the only strategy that existed prior to the attack. We wouldn't have deployed our ships differently.

[gnome]

Another nail in the coffin of this theory for me was that compared to Congress at the time, it was Roosevelt that was against getting into the war. Had he actually wanted to, he could just have asked Congress for authorization.

Can anyone confirm this though?

[Abbyas]

Excellent responses, gentlemen. I appreciate it.

[Nick Bogaerts]

Alright, People. Did Roosevelt know about Pearl Harbor or what?

No. Of course not. Roosevelt never existed.

[joemailman]

Read The Final Secret of Pearl Harbor by Robert Theobald, Rear Admiral USN. It may be out of print but it was one of the first books published on the subject probably in the '50s.:eye-poppi

[Spindrift]

Another nail in the coffin of this theory for me was that compared to Congress at the time, it was Roosevelt that was against getting into the war. Had he actually wanted to, he could just have asked Congress for authorization.

Can anyone confirm this though?

Huh?

I thought that Congress was Isolationist and Roosevelt was in favor of joining the Allies?

And prior to Pearl Harbor, the best he could do above board was Lend-Lease.

[Hutch]

Huh?

I thought that Congress was Isolationist and Roosevelt was in favor of joining the Allies?

And prior to Pearl Harbor, the best he could do above board was Lend-Lease.

Concur with you spindrift. Roosevelt pushed the Lend-Lease and also had US Destroyers escorting hips near US Waters, which got a couple of Destroyers torpedoed (IIRC). In addition, there were various restictions in trade (especially of steel and oil) to Japan put in place as a reaction to the Japanese invasion of China.

The Congress went along with these measures and while the Isolationists were a loud and vocal group that had major clout (Charles Lindbergh was perhaps the most notable non-politician), Roosevelt was gradually moving us into a War footing and mindset.

That said, the US had a good idea something was up, and messages on 27 and 29 Novmeber to the Pacific contained a "War Warning", but everybody including Roosevelt and the US Navy, did not believe Japan had the ability and skill to pull off an attack on Pearl Harbor.

They were wrong.

Actually, the guy who should be getting hammered is Douglas McArthur, who managed to have 12+ hours notice that a war was underway and still managed to get caught with his planes on the ground and unprepared for an attack.

Just my two cents worth...

[Alareth]

I've always had great faith in the account presented at the beginning of "The Codebreakers - The History of Secret Writing" by David Kahn. According to it, the US did manage to figure out that the attack was going to happen, but the peices didn't fall into place until a few hours before the attack and events prevented Washington from getting a warning to Pearl in time.

It's an excellent book, especially if you have any interest in cryptography. It's on my must read list.

[fuelair]

Just a reminder, for what it's worth: FDR was former Secretary of the Navy. Suggesting he had foreknowledge of a Pearl Harbor attack plan which likely would (and did) destroy so much in the way of equipment, materials, and lives and did nothing in response remains an astounding accusation.


Churchill/Coventry. Same war.

[gnome]

Well, hell. My memory must be going.

He did know!!!!!1111!!!

[TruthSeeker1234]

I think it is important to remember that an air assault on an island naval base was as impossible on December 6, 1941 as hijacking airplanes and flying them into skyscrapers was on September 10, 2001. Nobody thought such a thing could happen.


Huh? Loss leader, are you not aware that on September 11, 2001, the U.S. military was running multiple war games, one of which involved simulating hijacked aircraft crashing into buildings, including the WTC?

Are you not aware that in the Spring of 2001 a television pilot called "The Lone Gunman" aired and the subject was about a criminal element in the US government crashing jets into the Twin Towers?

Nobody thought such a thing could happen?? Where is your evidence?


I think the history shows that FDR wanted very much to enter WWII, for 2 years, while the American public was dead-set against it, as the horror of WWI was only 20 years past.

Abby, are you aware that the U.S. had an oil embargo against Japan prior to Pearl Harbor? We would certainly consider that an act of war if foreign war ships were preventing oil from entering the U.S., correct?

If Pearl Harbor and our entry into WWII was such a surprise, why was the military draft instituted more than a year before Pearl Harbor?

[fuelair]

Huh? Loss leader, are you not aware that on September 11, 2001, the U.S. military was running multiple war games, one of which involved simulating hijacked aircraft crashing into buildings, including the WTC?

Are you not aware that in the Spring of 2001 a television pilot called "The Lone Gunman" aired and the subject was about a criminal element in the US government crashing jets into the Twin Towers?

Nobody thought such a thing could happen?? Where is your evidence?


I think the history shows that FDR wanted very much to enter WWII, for 2 years, while the American public was dead-set against it, as the horror of WWI was only 20 years past.

Abby, are you aware that the U.S. had an oil embargo against Japan prior to Pearl Harbor? We would certainly consider that an act of war if foreign war ships were preventing oil from entering the U.S., correct?

If Pearl Harbor and our entry into WWII was such a surprise, why was the military draft instituted more than a year before Pearl Harbor? And, if memory serves, at least one scenario had been developed that showed/suggested a Japanese sea/air assault involving planes coming in pretty much the pattern actually followed. Obviously, that does not in any way verify pre-knowledge on Roosevelts' part but, it suggests such a scenario was not unthought of.

[anor277]

Huh?

I thought that Congress was Isolationist and Roosevelt was in favor of joining the Allies?

And prior to Pearl Harbor, the best he could do above board was Lend-Lease.

While congress did appear to be isolationist (which is pretty funny now given conservative criticism of European policies of appeasement in the 30's - to which American isolationism no doubt contributed), the actions of the US before its entry into the 2nd world war (i.e. Lend Lease, convoy protection, etc) were arguably acts of war against Germany. And of course Germany did unwisely declare war against the US. This says nothing about the US' ignorance of the Japanese attack.

[c4ts]

Roosevelt and Tojo were stealth Jews!

[kookbreaker]

Current Robert Stinnett has the most famous CT book called Day of Deceit.
It reads like a Alex Jones article. However I would say Stinnett is often worse. Simply going to the footnotes and tracking down the sources debunks most every major claim in the book.

Indeed. Stinnett's work is based on the idea that noone is going to read up on his sources and find out what they say is not what he claims they are saying. He was very fond of taking the 'recieved' dates of intercepted transmissions and claiming that was the date they were decoded and translated. In fact much of the stuff was not decoded until 1946.

Stinnett is also famous for shutting down his message board when the questions from real (or at least competent amatuer) historians asked hard questions about his motives and methods.

[Kent1]

Stinnett is also famous for shutting down his message board when the questions from real (or at least competent amatuer) historians asked hard questions about his motives and methods.

I was proud to be one of those people:D
I think I might still have some screen shots saved. LOL!
The only person on his side was a guy named Joe Maskin who still spams Wikipedia with his CT garbage.

[kookbreaker]

I was proud to be one of those people:D
I think I might still have some screen shots saved. LOL!
The only person on his side was a guy named Joe Maskin who still spams Wikipedia with his CT garbage.

Sweet!

[Spindrift]

<SNIP>
If Pearl Harbor and our entry into WWII was such a surprise, why was the military draft instituted more than a year before Pearl Harbor?

That we were brought into WWII was not a surprise in and of itself. The manner in which it happened may have been.

There was a minor skirmish going on in Europe at the time as well, something about Germans overrunning the continent.

So it was pretty much inevitable that the US was going to join the war at some point. The world was at war, so it was prudent to prepare for war even if you hoped not to get into it.

[Loss Leader]

Abby, are you aware that the U.S. had an oil embargo against Japan prior to Pearl Harbor? We would certainly consider that an act of war if foreign war ships were preventing oil from entering the U.S., correct?

If Pearl Harbor and our entry into WWII was such a surprise, why was the military draft instituted more than a year before Pearl Harbor?

You want a side of crazy with your crazy?

The world had been at war for eight years by the time Pearl Harbor came around. The US had used its position as a big island to stay aloof from things but nobody doubted that war with Germany was inevitable and nobody with any knowledge of anything doubted that war with Japan was more than likely.

It still does not change the fact that prevailing military wisdom at the time said that a Pearl Harbor stye attack was beyond the capabilities of the Japanese. In part, our racism got the better of us as we just couldn't believe non-whites could successfully float a navy. We were wrong, we got tagged, the US entered WWII and, as a direct result, the movie A Legue Of Their Own did very well at the box office.

[Dog Town]

If Pearl Harbor and our entry into WWII was such a surprise, why was the military draft instituted more than a year before Pearl Harbor?

Same reason as in WWI, we knew we were gonna need to train an army!
We would be needed to settle the score at some point! That we knew, just not when. Thank your God isolationism failed!

[defaultdotxbe]

Abby, are you aware that the U.S. had an oil embargo against Japan prior to Pearl Harbor? We would certainly consider that an act of war if foreign war ships were preventing oil from entering the U.S., correct?
you do realize that an embargo and a blockade are two diferent things, right?

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Abby, are you aware that the U.S. had an oil embargo against Japan prior to Pearl Harbor? We would certainly consider that an act of war if foreign war ships were preventing oil from entering the U.S., correct?


You are confusing "embargo" with "blockade." The U.S. was not blockading Japan (nor at that point did we have the capability to do so). The U.S. -- as well as the British and Dutch -- simply stopped selling their oil, scrap metal, etc. to Japan, because that oil was fueling Japan's expansion in China. That led to Japan expanding its operations to secure the resources it needed to continue its invasion of China.

Not Selling to a country != Blockading a country

[Dog Town]

Not Selling to a country != Blockading a country

Reality...shill!

[TruthSeeker1234]

Nice dodge Loss Leader. Admit lots of people envisioned 9/11 style attacks. Remember the several times I admitted I was wrong about certain things? Now it's your turn.

The point really is this. Whether you like it or not, there are powerful special interests who profit enormously from war. However, it is next to impossible to get citizens to actually pay for and fight wars. Regular folks hate war.

The problem then, from the standpoint of central bankers, military contractors, kings and presidents, is to figure out how to get "the people" to support a war effort. And the solution to the problem is well known. You must convince your people that they are being attacked.

[Dog Town]

The point really is this. Whether you like it or not, there are powerful special interests who profit enormously from war.

Nice... now you accuse the Jersey Girls! Nice respect....

[Spindrift]

The problem then, from the standpoint of central bankers, military contractors, kings and presidents, is to figure out how to get "the people" to support a war effort. And the solution to the problem is well known. You must convince your people that they are being attacked.

Well I think a lot of people in Hawaii on Dec 7, 1941 were pretty well convinced they were being attacked.

But then again, there could have been explosives planted on the Arizona. I've seen the film and I think the plume of smoke is a hoax. I've compared it with an explosion of powerboat and the smoke didn't act the same so obviously it was faked.

Perhaps Loose Change can expand their investigation and "prove" that the attack on Pearl Harbor was faked. I'm sure a lack of evidence won't be a hindrance.

[Loss Leader]

Nice dodge Loss Leader. Admit lots of people envisioned 9/11 style attacks. Remember the several times I admitted I was wrong about certain things? Now it's your turn.

I admit no such thing. I have seen that very point completely demolished on other threads. I refer you to the fine work done by Gravy, the LC Viewer's Guide and Screw Loose Change. I adopt their arguments as though I have set them out fully herein.

[Brainster]

Another nail in the coffin of this theory for me was that compared to Congress at the time, it was Roosevelt that was against getting into the war. Had he actually wanted to, he could just have asked Congress for authorization.

Can anyone confirm this though?

Gno.

Congress and the American people were going through an isolationist phase, after being drawn into WWI, which ended up being a disaster for all concerned. As an indication of this, Jeannette Rankin, a pacifist from Montana who had been the first woman elected to the House of Representatives in 1916, and who voted against WWI, which vote resulted in her losing her district in 1918, was reelected finally in 1940, just in time for Pearl Harbor. She was the only representative to vote against the Declaration of War in WWII.