There are at least 13,000 followers out there!

[cloudshipsrule]

Sadly I found this link while looking for images of WTC7. I tried to add a sarcastic name to no avail!

http://www.justicefor911.org/signatures.php?page=131

[Nevermore]

Petition of Solidarity with New York legislators, first responders, victim families, and millions of NY citizens calling for a new investigation of unsolved 9/11 crimes, and the full prosecution of those found responsible.

In memory and on behalf of:

the more than 2800 murdered in New York on September 11, 2001, including 343 firefighters and 75 police officers;
the hundreds of thousands of residents and workers variously harmed by the assault;
the equivalent numbers suffering dire health effects from attack-related pollution;
New York's collateral victims, human and institutional, who collectively lost billions of dollars in business, career and property damages; and
the millions of New York citizens who have lost precious freedoms, rights, family members and/or faith in government in the resulting so-called "War on Terror."We the undersigned:

a) think that there is ample evidence and probable cause to believe that many grave and still unresolved crimes were committed by US officials prior to, during and after the events of 9/11;

b) observe that most of these apparent crimes, including but not limited to abetment of mass murder, criminal negligence, insider trading, and obstruction of justice, fall well within the jurisdiction of New York's top law enforcement officials, who thus become the People's last recourse when federal intervention yields no credible answers, relief or accountability;

c) therefore petition the Attorney General of the State of New York and the District Attorney of the Borough of Manhattan:

to open urgent new investigations into the most serious, incriminating,
and still largely unexplicated bodies of 9/11 evidence,
to expose and fully prosecute the perpetrators of all discovered crimes,
to restore damages, justice and honor to the state and people of New York, and thereby
to reclaim the public trust in government and our system of law.Signed,

I just want to make sure I understand your position.

By attempting to add a sarcastic name are you trying to imply the families of those killed and the rescue workers and other New Yorkers now suffering from respitory disease don't have the right to peition their Attorney General to open an investigation?

[Hellbound]

I just want to make sure I understand your position.

By attempting to add a sarcastic name are you trying to imply the families of those killed and the rescue workers and other New Yorkers now suffering from respitory disease don't have the right to peition their Attorney General to open an investigation?

I can give my opinion:

The peopel operating this website are wasting the time and resources of the victims, time and resources that would be much better put to use addressing the actual problems, such as respiiratory issues, rather than investigating red herrings to satisfy paranoids.

These people are woefully uneducated in terms of political proces, and extremeely niave if they think an electronic petition is worth the paper it's printed on.

They are conducting an ineffectual task for questionable goals, and taking away resources that could actually contribute to something useful.

[Spindrift]

I just want to make sure I understand your position.

By attempting to add a sarcastic name are you trying to imply the families of those killed and the rescue workers and other New Yorkers now suffering from respitory disease don't have the right to peition their Attorney General to open an investigation?

I believe he's implying that there are no "unsolved 9/11 crimes".

[Gravy]

I just want to make sure I understand your position.

By attempting to add a sarcastic name are you trying to imply the families of those killed and the rescue workers and other New Yorkers now suffering from respitory disease don't have the right to peition their Attorney General to open an investigation?They pay lip service to the families and workers, but look at what they think should be investigated:
b) observe that most of these apparent crimes, including but not limited to abetment of mass murder, criminal negligence, insider trading, and obstruction of justice, fall well within the jurisdiction of New York's top law enforcement officials, who thus become the People's last recourse when federal intervention yields no credible answers, relief or accountability;
Typical CT BS, trying to use sympathy for victims for their own political purpose.

[T.A.M.]

I just want to make sure I understand your position.

By attempting to add a sarcastic name are you trying to imply the families of those killed and the rescue workers and other New Yorkers now suffering from respitory disease don't have the right to peition their Attorney General to open an investigation?

I'll let him answer for himself, but why would you try to insinuate what his sarcasm meant, rather than just ask him?



Petition of Solidarity with New York legislators, first responders, victim families, and millions of NY citizens calling for a new investigation of unsolved 9/11 crimes, and the full prosecution of those found responsible.


Ok, where are the "millions" of NY citizens calling for a new investigation. This is an outright lie. If their were "millions of NY citizens crying out for "a new investigation" than there would likely already be one, given NY is the home of NBC/ABC/CBS, and where 9/11 occured.

This type of lieing really gets me angry because they exaggerate to the extreme, using the victims to insight sympathy, merely to gain signatures.


In memory and on behalf of:

* the more than 2800 murdered in New York on September 11, 2001, including 343 firefighters and 75 police officers;
* the hundreds of thousands of residents and workers variously harmed by the assault;


Hundreds of thousands. That means at least 200,000. Where on gods earth did they get a figure of 200,000 or more people harmed by the assault of 9/11. Once again outright lieng to garnish signatures...on the back of the tragedy that was 9/11.


* the equivalent numbers suffering dire health effects from attack-related pollution;


So atleast 200,000 people are suffering "dire" health problems from the pollution. OMG the lies continue.


* New York's collateral victims, human and institutional, who collectively lost billions of dollars in business, career and property damages; and


ok, fair enough.


* the millions of New York citizens who have lost precious freedoms, rights, family members and/or faith in government in the resulting so-called "War on Terror."

ok, the use of "family members" in between to other sufferings that are completely unrelated, and using the word "millions" also another mischaracterization. This is the most blatent misrepresentation I HAVE EVER SEEN.


We the undersigned:

a) think that there is ample evidence and probable cause to believe that many grave and still unresolved crimes were committed by US officials prior to, during and after the events of 9/11;


good for you. Too bad you are wrong, as there is not sufficient evidence of this.


b) observe that most of these apparent crimes, including but not limited to abetment of mass murder, criminal negligence, insider trading, and obstruction of justice, fall well within the jurisdiction of New York's top law enforcement officials, who thus become the People's last recourse when federal intervention yields no credible answers, relief or accountability;


so now they are "apparent" crimes. So now you are backing off, not accusing them of "actual" crimes, but "apparent" crimes. Funny in this petition they do not mention the fact that most of the "truth" movement feels that part of the "NY top Law Enforcement" were in on 9/11.


c) therefore petition the Attorney General of the State of New York and the District Attorney of the Borough of Manhattan:

* to open urgent new investigations into the most serious, incriminating,
* and still largely unexplicated bodies of 9/11 evidence,
* to expose and fully prosecute the perpetrators of all discovered crimes,
* to restore damages, justice and honor to the state and people of New York, and thereby
* to reclaim the public trust in government and our system of law.

Signed,

so out of the millions of NY Citizens who were hurt by this, as they claim, they have 13,000 signatures...impressive...not.

This petition itself is a mockery, because it is asking the state of NY to invest money, time, effort, and resources, into an investigation substantiated by little to no solid proof, to look into opinions deemed incorrect, proposterous, and baseless by the top experts in the fields of engineering, and demolitions.

I dont know what else to say right now...but I am sure I will think of something later.

TAM

[Nevermore]

I'll let him answer for himself, but why would you try to insinuate what his sarcasm meant, rather than just ask him?
TAM

I'm sorry, you are right. I should not have infered a possible reason in my question.

I should have asked "why do you feel it is necessary to attempt to sign this petition with a sarcastic name?"

[Loss Leader]

By attempting to add a sarcastic name are you trying to imply the families of those killed and the rescue workers and other New Yorkers now suffering from respitory disease don't have the right to peition their Attorney General to open an investigation?


Nevermore, you once again seek to subtly redefine terms so that they favor your interpretation. This is not a petition FROM survivors and rescue workers, it is a petition supposedly "in solidarity" with survivors and rescue workers.

Those actually affected by the events of 9/11 have every right to petition their Attorney General for whatever the heck they want.

However, of the 13,083 signatures on the petition, only 7 are even alleged to be from families and first responders. let me say that again: 7.

Scrolling through the signatures, it appears the vast majority of the rest of the signers are not New York State citizens. So they are not petitioning their Attorney General to do a darned thing.

By posting your reply, are you trying to imply that a petition where 0.05% of signatories are actually from the affected class is, in fact, a petition from the affected class? By posting your reply, are you trying to imply that a petition where 0.05% of signatories are asking their Attorney General for aid is, in fact, the same as a petition from a class asking their Attorney General for aid?

I know, Nevermore. You're "just asking questions."

[T.A.M.]

In Nevermores defense, he was making comment on the "motive" behind the posting of the list, which he himself did not bring to the table. He has since admitted he should not have implied anything, but merely ask why sarcasm would be needed to sign such a petition.

To be fair to Lossleader; he has a point, in that this petition is such a barbarization of facts, such an exaggeration of truth, and such a misrepresentation to the detriment of the reputations of those who truely did lose on 9/11, that it should be reported for its dishonesty.

TAM

[cloudshipsrule]

I didn't expect this number of responses! I couldn't reply any sooner due to work-related issues. Nevermore, I'll answer your question.

I wanted to sign this BS petition with a sarcastic name in an attempt to add a smidgeon of discredit to the list, as I feel this petition disgraces those who died on 9/11 by spreading propagandistic filth, by touting wholly un-researched evidence as gospel, and by praying on the emotions stirred up surrounding the terrorist acts commited that day. I wanted a sarcastic signature on the list to stir up emotions in those who have read the BS on that particular website in the hopes that they read a little more on the whole 9/11matter so that they might find a spark of truth amongst the mountain of drivel that most web searches vomit on the screens of those computer users searching for appeasement.

That's why.

I neglected to add a link to the webpage from whence this petition came, or it would have been much more clear as to why I didn't care for it. The petition itself seems rather innocuous standing on it's own, but when coupled with the parent website, it becomes painfully obvious that this is just another arm of the vast conspiracy theorist's world which I despise with a passion.

[alexg]

I didn't expect this number of responses! I couldn't reply any sooner due to work-related issues. Nevermore, I'll answer your question.

I wanted to sign this BS petition with a sarcastic name in an attempt to add a smidgeon of discredit to the list, as I feel this petition disgraces those who died on 9/11 by spreading propagandistic filth, by touting wholly un-researched evidence as gospel, and by praying on the emotions stirred up surrounding the terrorist acts commited that day. I wanted a sarcastic signature on the list to stir up emotions in those who have read the BS on that particular website in the hopes that they read a little more on the whole 9/11matter so that they might find a spark of truth amongst the mountain of drivel that most web searches vomit on the screens of those computer users searching for appeasement.

That's why.

I neglected to add a link to the webpage from whence this petition came, or it would have been much more clear as to why I didn't care for it. The petition itself seems rather innocuous standing on it's own, but when coupled with the parent website, it becomes painfully obvious that this is just another arm of the vast conspiracy theorist's world which I despise with a passion.


Exactly, this petition invites sarcasm because it is disingenuos.

[Nevermore]

Thank you for your answer.

It seemed to me that signing this petition, even with a sarcastic name, would simply boost the number of people the operators of this website could claim to be "in solidarity with" the seven individuals who petitioned the NY Attorney General since few people would scruitinize a list of that many names.

(Warning: not the best analogy) If you follow Texas state politics, it would be like a Republican or a Democrat casting a vote for Kinky Freedman as a joke. If enough people considered the joke was funny he would become the next governor.

Loss Leader, your seem to be from New York. If someone knocked on your door and asked you to sign this petition would you do so? If they handed you a clipboard as you walked down the street would you sign with a sarcastic name?

[Hellbound]

Nevermore:

One other thing to consider is that an electronic petition is dead before it starts.

I'm open to coutnerexamples, but to my knowledge, no electronic petetion has ever caused a change in government policy. Electronic petitions are simply too easy to fake and too hard to verify. They're meaningless and ineffective even if they have only the best and purest goals at heart.

We could put 10 million signatures on it, and it wouldn't matter.

[cloudshipsrule]

I also don't expect this list to gain much momentum, and doubt it will prompt action of any sort anyway. By signing the list, I'm making myself happier while not lending any credence to the list nor any real ammunition for the truth seekers.

Should the list prompt some civil action, scrutiny of the list would surely follow, and my sarcastic signature would actually hinder the truth movements agenda to some small degree.

Here's hoping hundreds of names on that list are fake and/or sarcastic.

[Loss Leader]

Loss Leader, your seem to be from New York. If someone knocked on your door and asked you to sign this petition would you do so? If they handed you a clipboard as you walked down the street would you sign with a sarcastic name?

I'll answer this although I don't know whether my answer is actually evidence of anything.

Looking at the website, the first thing that I see that conerns me is that this is a petition for New York State to take certain acts but it also appears to be a petition in support of another petition. And, indeed, there is another Complaint and Petition signed by seven so-called "first complainants." Looking at that Petition, it is different from the document I would be asked to sign. I'm not sure what the differences are but I am sure that the petition for me doesn't just say "do what these people ask" but says a whole bunch of other stuff as well.

The whole thing being a mess of two different petitions to begin with which ask for different things, I would probably refuse to sign on that basis alone.

Reading the petition I would be asked to sign, I can tell you the very word at which I would hand it back to the person at my door.

We the undersigned:

a) think that there is ample evidence and probable cause to believe that many grave and still unresolved crimes were committed by US officials ...

That's it. I don't believe there is any evidence that any unresolved crimes were committed by any US officials. I would not have read further.

In the original Petition, I would not have read all of their statements of evidence and such but would have skipped to the part where they ask for relief. There, I would have found this:

6. Determine, based upon the work of independent scientists, engineers, and other experts, whether the collapse of each World Trade Center building was:

...

d. Due in part to detonation of explosive materials

At that point, I may have become violent.

However, I am generally a more careful reader than most. Being a lawyer, I am more familiar with how to find the heart of a "legal" document. I imagine most people think they're just supporting the families without actually understanding what they are signing.

If I were an attorney for the State of New York and I received this petition along with 13,000 signatures, I would draft a very nice letter explaining that Mr. Spitzer is committed to meeting the needs and concerns of all New Yorkers and then throw the thing away.

[Hellbound]

Loss Leader:

Just to calrify my own understanding, am I correct on the value of electronic petitions? It's my understanding that petitions "signed" via email or web sites are generally ignored. Does this fit with your experience as well?

[Loss Leader]

Loss Leader:

Just to calrify my own understanding, am I correct on the value of electronic petitions? It's my understanding that petitions "signed" via email or web sites are generally ignored. Does this fit with your experience as well?

Not necessarily.

Certain types of government action may require a petition of its citizens 9to put a candidate on the ballot, to create a new municipality, to bring an issue to a referendum). Those types of petitions are created by statute and I know of no law that allows electronic petitioning. So those types must still be on paper with names and addresses.

Otherwise, a petition is just a grassroots way of saying to those in power that this is an issue that your constituency thinks is important. Petitions don't carry great weight because they're basically free. It costs people nothing to sign and so it doesn't give any idea how important the issue is to them. Still, real signatures on paper with addresses shows at least that people took time to stop, listen to the person and record their information.

Electronic petitions are even lower on the scale. They can and have been done correctly. One goes to a site, enters one's information, electronically signs and then the information is verified. But internet petitions are even easier to sign without reading than paper ones, they take even less effort to agree with, so politicians are even more likely to ignore them.

Email petitions are absolutely worthless. The signatures are meaningless. There is no way to collect them. They never get to anyone. They're pure spam.

I have looked into the New York AG's office and it appears that there is no procedure for petitioning the AG for anything. The Justicefor911 petition has no legal weight. It is utterly without meaning. Its only validity is as a political document and the fact that it is signed by so many non-New Yorkers makes it just worthless. If I were Elliot Spitzer, I doubt I would even acknowledge receipt.

[defaultdotxbe]

another major problem with onlien petitions vs on paper is there is no way to verify if this was by 13,000 one time each, or by one person 13,000 times

[Pardalis]

If these people all believe the US government was behind 9/11, why on earth do they sign their name?

Are they suicidal?

[Hellbound]

Loss Leader:

Thank you. That fits pretty well with my thinking, as well.

[Pardalis]

I skimmed through it and I already can see some people signed twice. Not only do they want an another investigation, but they want to cheat their way to another investigation!

Not only do they think the NWO is out to conquer the world, they really want them to know their names!

[Hellbound]

I skimmed through it and I already can see some people signed twice. Not only do they want an another investigation, but they want to cheat their way to another investigation!

Not only do they think the NWO is out to conquer the world, they really want them to know their names!

It's insurance, so when they're killed and scrubbed from the list, the second signing will still be there :)

Or this is the Matrix, and there's a glitch in the random extra name generator.

:D