NIST update re: WTC7

[LashL]

This is interesting. It looks like NIST is going to directly address the thermite issue and the controlled demolition issue in their study of WTC7.

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/WTC7_Approach_Summary12Oct06.pdf

[Gravy]

Hmm. "Evaluation of thermite as a possible blast substance." I don't think they'll get far with that. :rolleyes: HushaBoomtm, on the other hand....

You'd think they could have given me a heads up that they were releasing this update. Jerks.

[T.A.M.]

yes, and while this appears to be a good thing, and in many ways is, this is how I see this playing with the CTers:

1. They will say the very fact that NIST decided to address it (CD for WTC 7), means that it was a possibility that it occured.

2. They will quote mine the F&*K out of it, to support their flimsy case.

3. Any conclusions NIST makes contrary to the CD theory, will be ignored or played as Shilling.

TAM

[Anti-sophist]

You can't win... if they mention it, it's evidence of its possibility. If they don't, it's "ignoring important issues". The main goal should be to get the science right, and let the people who ignore it, ignore it.

This will be a great example, though, of them getting answers to the questions they ask, and then ignoring the answer, insisting the questions go unanswered.

[Cylinder]

From page 11:

NIST is analyzing scenarios for the event that initiated the collapse of WTC 7. As a part of this work, NIST is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST will estimate the magnitudeof hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure ofone or more critical elements as a result of blast.

Phase I: Identify hypothetical blast scenarios and materials, based on analysis and/or experience, for failing specified columns by direct attachment methods. Preliminary section cutting shall be considered. Compare estimated overpressures for each scenario against window strength.


Phase II: For blast scenarios with overpressures that clearly would not have broken windows, the worst case scenario(s) will be analyzed using SHAMRC software to determine overpressures at windows.


Phase III: If Phase II overpressures did not clearly fail windows, 3 blast scenarios will be selected to determine the sound levels that would be transmitted outside the building through intact windows.


We probably want to find out to whom the contract was awarded - which should be public.

[T.A.M.]

why bother, before you can, the CTers will not only know that, but they will have found the second cousin of the contracters exwife, who will be discovered to have given $200 to the Republicans, and hence...all the evidence will be fake.

TAM;)

[LashL]

From page 11:




We probably want to find out to whom the contract was awarded - which should be public.

There is a list of contracts here:

http://wtc.nist.gov/solicitations/

I'm just browsing it now...

Looks like "Applied Research Associates"

http://wtc.nist.gov/solicitations/wtc_awardQ0186.htm

[Cylinder]

Searching through the NIST site, I found this image gallery (http://wtc.nist.gov/media/gallery2.htm#fire) from their fire experiments - which may be of interest here.

[bob_kark]

I suppose it depends on how well they debunk the possibility. They certainly have access to more information then we do about it. I'll definately give them the benefit of the doubt until I can read it.

[Cylinder]

why bother...

Since Gravy seems to be taking his project seriously, it can aid in getting information from the primary source and in a more timely manner and let one know where to try to develop contacts.

[LashL]

The team will be led Dr. Steven W. Kirkpatrick. Select experience of key project personnel is summarized below:

* Dr. Steven W. Kirkpatrick is the program manager for this project. Dr. Kirkpatrick is a Principal Engineer with 21 years of experience in structural dynamics, failure analysis, finite element analysis, impact and penetration mechanics, and vehicle crashworthiness. He has more than 40 publications in these areas. His research experience includes a wide range of government and commercial projects for rail, highway, civil, military, and aerospace applications. He has been a program leader for many studies requiring close collaboration between experimental and computational efforts with emphasis on model validation. Dr. Kirkpatrick was previously the PI for the ARA participation in the NIST WTC investigation in performing the aircraft impact analyses. Dr. Kirkpatrick has a doctorate in mechanical engineering from Stanford University.

* Dr. Robert Bocchieri, Principal Engineer, will provide expertise in nonlinear dynamic finite element analysis, solid mechanics, materials constitutive modeling, rate-dependent material behavior, fracture mechanics and failure analysis, mechanics of composite materials, and structural dynamics. Dr. Bocchieri has a doctorate in aerospace engineering from the University of Texas at Austin.

* Mr. James Brokaw, Senior Security Engineer and Director of the Security Engineering Group, will provide expertise in the analysis of progressive collapse in buildings. He has served as the lead consultant for numerous projects of national significance subject to terrorist threats and assisted in the development of GSA’s progressive collapse analysis and design guidelines. Mr. Brokaw has a Master’s Degree in civil engineering from West Virginia University.

* Mr. Robert MacNeill, Senior Engineer, will provide expertise in finite element analysis (FEA) and thermal analysis. Mr. MacNeill is an experienced user of LS-DYNA, having implemented many advanced features of the code and is skilled at constructing complex parametric finite element models designed to easily interface with simulation based design (SBD) systems and design databases. Mr. MacNeill has a Master’s Degree in mechanical engineering from the Rochester Institute of Technology.

* Mr. Brian Peterson, Senior Engineer, will provide expertise in nonlinear dynamic finite element analysis, impact and penetration mechanics, solid mechanics, materials constitutive modeling, fracture mechanics, and failure analysis. Mr. Peterson has experience in testing of materials and structures and has extensive experience with advanced features of LS-DYNA. Mr. Peterson has a Master’s Degree in mechanical engineering from Stanford University.

[Peephole]

* Dr. Steven W. Kirkpatrick is the program manager for this project. His research experience includes a wide range of government and commercial projects for rail, highway, civil, military, and aerospace applications.

Geez, total shill. :rolleyes:

[Augustine]

ARA is an experienced firm. I still have an old version of ATBlast I picked up from a Protective Design seminar. I'd say off the top of my head for blast design or analysis, you got Baker Engineering, Karagozian and Case, Weidlinger, Century Dynamics has some impressive modelling capability but I'm not so sure about their blast expertise...couple more firms I can't think of right now....

As an engineer, it's great to have the money to model the "what if"s and "how could"s, but as a taxpayer I cringe a little spending money on a goose chase that isn't going to assuage anyone...

[jujigatami]

Nist should just call them Retards.

[Cylinder]

As an engineer, it's great to have the money to model the "what if"s and "how could"s, but as a taxpayer I cringe a little spending money on a goose chase that isn't going to assuage anyone...

You said it, brother. Now we need to pony up a few millions to prove we landed on the moon.

[Peephole]

Nist should just call them Retards.
I can only imagine the summary:

"We investigated hypothetical blast scenarios and evaluated thermite as a possible blast substance. We concluded that IT WAS A TOTALLY RETARDED IDEA."

[dirtywick]

I think it will be interesting to see how far they take it and what angle they approach the data.

[Cylinder]

Really. I mean if we want to spend taxpayers' money in the manner most prudent, this contract should have been awarded by the National Institute on Mental Health. At least then we could hold some small hope for a return on investment.

[DavidJames]

The team will be led Dr. Steven W. Kirkpatrick. Select experience of key project personnel is summarized below:

* Dr. Steven W. Kirkpatrick is the program manager for this project. Dr. Kirkpatrick is a Principal Engineer with 21 years of experience in structural dynamics, failure analysis, finite element analysis, impact and penetration mechanics, and vehicle crashworthiness. He has more than 40 publications in these areas. His research experience includes a wide range of government and commercial projects for rail, highway, civil, military, and aerospace applications. He has been a program leader for many studies requiring close collaboration between experimental and computational efforts with emphasis on model validation. Dr. Kirkpatrick was previously the PI for the ARA participation in the NIST WTC investigation in performing the aircraft impact analyses. Dr. Kirkpatrick has a doctorate in mechanical engineering from Stanford University.

* Dr. Robert Bocchieri, Principal Engineer, will provide expertise in nonlinear dynamic finite element analysis, solid mechanics, materials constitutive modeling, rate-dependent material behavior, fracture mechanics and failure analysis, mechanics of composite materials, and structural dynamics. Dr. Bocchieri has a doctorate in aerospace engineering from the University of Texas at Austin.

* Mr. James Brokaw, Senior Security Engineer and Director of the Security Engineering Group, will provide expertise in the analysis of progressive collapse in buildings. He has served as the lead consultant for numerous projects of national significance subject to terrorist threats and assisted in the development of GSA’s progressive collapse analysis and design guidelines. Mr. Brokaw has a Master’s Degree in civil engineering from West Virginia University.

* Mr. Robert MacNeill, Senior Engineer, will provide expertise in finite element analysis (FEA) and thermal analysis. Mr. MacNeill is an experienced user of LS-DYNA, having implemented many advanced features of the code and is skilled at constructing complex parametric finite element models designed to easily interface with simulation based design (SBD) systems and design databases. Mr. MacNeill has a Master’s Degree in mechanical engineering from the Rochester Institute of Technology.

* Mr. Brian Peterson, Senior Engineer, will provide expertise in nonlinear dynamic finite element analysis, impact and penetration mechanics, solid mechanics, materials constitutive modeling, fracture mechanics, and failure analysis. Mr. Peterson has experience in testing of materials and structures and has extensive experience with advanced features of LS-DYNA. Mr. Peterson has a Master’s Degree in mechanical engineering from Stanford University.
Two Senior Engineer, two Principal Engineers and the Director of the Security Engineering Group. Gimme a break, where are the philosophers, dental engineers and unemployed alledged pilots? You know, the people with the real smarts to figure this stuff out.

[Peephole]

Yeah, the least they could have done was add a folklore professor.

[CurtC]

Augustine, welcome to the JREF Forum!

[Gravy]

ARA is an experienced firm. I still have an old version of ATBlast I picked up from a Protective Design seminar. I'd say off the top of my head for blast design or analysis, you got Baker Engineering, Karagozian and Case, Weidlinger, Century Dynamics has some impressive modelling capability but I'm not so sure about their blast expertise...couple more firms I can't think of right now....

As an engineer, it's great to have the money to model the "what if"s and "how could"s, but as a taxpayer I cringe a little spending money on a goose chase that isn't going to assuage anyone...
Well hellooo, there. Are you waiting for someone? Can I buy you a drink? :)